Tucker asks: Did Joe Biden profit from son Hunter's China deals?

close

Video

Tucker asks: Did Joe Biden profit from son Hunter's China deals?

'Tucker Carlson Tonight' host takes a closer look at the Biden family's business with Communist China

This is a rush transcript from “Tucker Carlson Tonight" October 22, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

TUCKER CARLSON, FOX NEWS HOST:  I want to bring you in on a FOX News Alert. 
Good evening. Welcome to TUCKER CARLSON TONIGHT.  

Of course, the second of two presidential debates begins less than an hour 
from now. We thought we knew what to expect and we were wrong.  

A surprisingly, maybe shocking, maybe history-altering development.  

Just a few moments ago, we received a statement, we aired a statement from 
a former Naval officer called Tony Bobulinski. Bobulinski was a business 
partner of Hunter Biden's. That's probably a name you've never heard before 
today. You're going to hear a lot about this man in the coming days.  

So let's get a few things straight. There's no evidence -- we have no 
evidence as of tonight that Bobulinski is a partisan Republican in fact. In 
fact, all the evidence suggests otherwise. He is a registered Democrat, all 
of his political donations had been to Democrats.  

Tonight, Bobulinski announced that he met directly with Joe Biden and 
discussed the Biden's family business dealings with the communist 
government of China. He says he has text messages that corroborate that, 
and apparently he does.  

Here's part of the on camera statement from Tony Bobulinski just a few 
moments ago.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)  

TONY BOBULINSKI, FORMER ASSOCIATE OF HUNTER BIDEN:  I've heard Joe Biden 
say that he has never discussed business with Hunter. That is false.  

I have firsthand knowledge about this because I directly dealt with the 
Biden family, including Joe Biden. I brought, I guess, for record three 
phones that spanned the years 2015 through 2018. These phones have never 
been held by anybody else besides myself.  

I was introduced to Joe Biden by Jim Biden and Hunter Biden. At 
approximately -- and at my approximately hour-long meeting with Joe that 
night, we discussed the Biden's history, the Biden's family business plans 
with the Chinese, with which he was plainly familiar, at least at a high 
level.  

I received an e-mail concerning allocation of equity, which says 10 percent 
held by H for the big guy. In that e-mail, there is no question that H 
stands for Hunter, big guy for his father, Joe Biden.  

I will be providing to the F.B.I. the devices which contain the evidence 
corroborating what I have said.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)  

CARLSON:  All coming so fast, an awful lot of detail. In a written 
statement, Bobulinski added this by the way, "Hunter Biden," he said, " ... 
frequently referred to his father as quote, 'my Chairman.'"  

Hunter Biden quote, "Frequently referenced asking his father for his sign 
off or advice in various potential deals that we were discussing." That 
would be with the communist government of China.  

As of right now, 8:03 Eastern Time, the Biden campaign has not directly 
denied this.  

Now, keep in mind, this topic, amazingly, may not come up in the debate 
tonight. The final presidential debate traditionally centers on questions 
for foreign policy, but the rules have been changed. You can guess as to 
why. And now the announced topics, among others will be coronavirus and 
climate change.  

So none of this may be addressed directly tonight. The President, of 
course, is aware of that, no doubt plans to ask questions directly to the 
former Vice President on the stage. But the Debate Commission has thought 
this through and they have announced that if the President speaks out of 
turn, his microphone will be cut off. He will be standing there 
gesticulating like a mime in silence.  

But that won't make the questions themselves go away, and for the next week 
and a half, you are likely to hear them again and again and the central 
question in all of this is, did Joe Biden himself profit from these deals? 
And there's no question at this point that there were deals.  

Remember last week, "The New York Post" published an e-mail dated May 13, 
2017. It was retrieved from Hunter Biden's laptop and it was his laptop.  

In that e-mail, an associate discusses setting aside a quote "10 percent" 
equity stake in a Chinese company. That company CEFC. That money would be 
reserved for someone referred to as the big guy. Now, that e-mail is real. 
FOX News has confirmed it is authentic, and again, no one on the Biden 
campaign has disputed its authenticity.  

In his statement, Bobulinski didn't just confirm that the May 13, 2017 e-
mail is real. He also explained as, you might have already guessed that Joe 
Biden is in fact the big guy referenced in the document, and he would know. 
Bobulinski was the CEO of something called Sinohawk Holdings. So it was a 
partnership between CEFC and the Biden family.  

From the outset, Bobulinski says he knew it was a corrupt arrangement. As 
he put it, it was obvious that, quote, "The Chinese were not really focused 
on a healthy return on investment. They were looking at this as a political 
or influence investment. The Biden family aggressively leveraged the Biden 
family name to make millions of dollars from foreign entities, even though 
some of them were controlled from Communist China."  

Now, there is more than just this man's word, though apparently he was 
directly involved. There's also physical evidence. In a text message dated 
May 20, 2017, obtained by this, Hunter Biden's business partner, James 
Gilliar had a warning for Bobulinski quote, "Don't mention Joe being 
involved. It's only when you are face-to-face. I know you know that, but 
they are paranoid." Only mention Joe Biden when we're face-to-face? Of 
course, that's a mafia don's talk on the sidewalk outside the social club 
in Brooklyn.  

And there's more. Senate Homeland Security investigators are now reviewing 
a trove of documents Bobulinski has apparently provided. One of them, 
published today shows that CEFC, that's the Chinese energy company in 
question provided a $5 million interest free loan to the Bidens. 
Separately, Gilliar wrote to Hunter Biden to explain that he would receive 
$850,000.00 as chairman of the partnership with the Chinese company.  

Hunter Biden apparently didn't think it was enough. So on May 16, 2017, 
Hunter Biden complained to his business partners about not getting paid 
more, quote, "I have to admit, I do expect that if I can't keep my toe and 
other things, I will need a hell of a lot more than $850,000.00 per year on 
a monthly basis."  

So there was a lot of money involved. Clearly. That's not really in 
dispute. The question is, where did the money go? Who got it? And where is 
it now? And how much of that money did the big guy, the man you will see on 
stage in less than an hour, keep for himself, if any?  

We don't know the answers to those questions. And as of right now, almost 
nobody in the legacy media is asking those questions. But we may learn soon 
anyway.  

Yesterday, we learned that the F.B.I. obtained a subpoena for Hunter 
Biden's laptop and hard drive. They were left famously in that repair shop 
in Wilmington. They got that subpoena in connection with a money laundering 
investigation that was underway late last year. We don't know the status of 
that investigation, but we have confirmed it was underway.  

Just hours ago, FOX News obtained an e-mail linking the Biden's business 
interest by the way, because you can't make this up, to Kamala Harris and 
other top Democrats.  

Here's the link. The e-mail dated May 15, 2017 was written by Jim Biden. He 
is, of course, the brother of the former Vice President. The subject line 
in the e-mail is this. "Phase One domestic context/projects." The e-mail 
contains a list of what he calls quote, "Key domestic contacts for Phase 
One target projects."  

Guess who is on the list? The vice presidential nominee, Kamala Harris.  

These are big stories, about five or six of them, different threads. This 
isn't Russian propaganda. This is real. So how is the Biden campaign 
responding to it? As of right now, they are still dismissing all of it as 
the work of Vladimir Putin.  

This was a Biden surrogate on FOX News today. Watch this.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)  

STEPHANIE RAWLINGS-BLAKE, SURROGATE FOR DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE JOE BIDEN:  My 
hope is that that our country will not be led down this road again by Putin 
and allow Russia to interfere with our election and my hope is that FOX 
won't participate in the interference in our election by continuing to 
perpetuate a bogus story.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)  

CARLSON:  Okay, so FOX News is interfering in the election by bringing you 
the news -- legitimate news, with eyewitnesses, with uncontested documents. 
The Biden campaign is claiming this is doing the bidding of a hostile 
foreign government in order to subvert our democracy. That's the actual 
claim they are making. They are saying it out loud.  

Now, the gambit, of course, is that through pure aggression, they can make 
us be quiet and make the story go away and it was working, we'll be honest 
with you.  

But it won't work now. It's not enough to kill the story.  

The story is too serious and now, there is too much detail. Even partisans 
can no longer ignore it.  

So what happens next? Again, there are many different parts to the story 
and not all of them are entirely clear, but we know much more than we did 
even two hours ago. And so for the latest in this, we go as we have for the 
last several days to Miranda Devine. She works at "The New York Post," 
which initially broke the story of Hunter Biden's business dealings with 
foreign countries and his father's involvement in those.  

Miranda Devine joins us now. Miranda, thanks so much for coming on. This is 
-- I can't overstate how surprising this is. I am trying not to use word 
"seismic" but I think it's in that category right before the final debate. 
What do we know now that we didn't hours ago?  

MIRANDA DEVINE, COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK POST":  Well, our story eight days 
ago has just opened a Pandora's Box and it has prompted people like Tony 
Bobulinski to come forward and to talk to the Senate homeland Affairs 
Committee, and to also show the contents of those three phones that he just 
displayed.  

And on those phones are so many e-mails, WhatsApp messages, text messages 
between him and his partners, which were Hunter Biden and another guy 
called James Gilliar.  

Now, there is just incontrovertible evidence here that Joe Biden was 
involved and knew that his brother, James Biden, and his son, Hunter Biden, 
were operating this cash for influence scheme, with overseas companies, 
with Chinese companies, with Communist China to leverage millions of 
dollars on the Biden name.  

And you've done a very good job of summarizing a lot of that material. We 
saw Tony Bobulinski shortly, just a few minutes ago, and he is a very 
credible guy. He is strong. He is honest. He is a former lieutenant in the 
Navy. He has formerly just donated to Democrat causes.  

So this is not a partisan person. This is not someone you can dismiss as a 
Russian agent, like they have with Rudy Giuliani.  

CARLSON:  I have to say, and perhaps there are some self-interest involved 
in this, but I am very bothered by the willingness of the Biden campaign to 
accuse news outlets, the one that you work for and the one that I work for, 
of doing the bidding of a hostile foreign government to interfere in 
American democracy.  

These people could be in charge of the Federal government very soon. That 
could happen. What does this tell us about their willingness to stifle the 
Free Press in order to gain political power?  

DEVINE:  It tells you that they are utterly desperate, and it also tells 
you that they are confident that the rest of the media will back them up 
and allow them to attack us as Russian agents and peddling Russian 
disinformation.  

But if you actually just honestly look at their response, it has been: Joe 
Biden has hidden away for a week since our story broke. He has not answered 
any question. What this shows is that he has been lying about his knowledge 
of his son's business, at the very least.  

This is no longer about Hunter Biden. It's about Joe Biden. And the Biden 
campaign statement that they put out tonight is very curiously paused and 
that tells you everything. What he says is that there is no indication that 
he received any money. I mean, that's what it's come down to now.  

So there is no evidence that we've provided yet of money going to him. But 
there was money, you know, in all of these documents that we've seen, and 
what Tony Bobulinski says, is that money was being reserved. We saw that e-
mail that 10 percent of a big deal with the Chinese energy company was 
being reserved by Hunter for the big guy. And Bobulinski has confirmed that 
the big guy is Joe Biden.  

So there are so many questions that need to be asked. And, you know, Joe 
Biden could easily clear it up by coming clean and talking to us. It's 
unbelievable that no one else in the media is covering this.  

CARLSON:  Well, that's I mean -- let me just ask you as a final question, 
we're about to have the final presidential debate. In a campaign in which 
we've seen relatively little of the Democratic challenger, we haven't -- 
and it's not a partisan point, it is true.  

It's measurably true. We haven't seen much of Joe Biden. He hasn't answered 
many questions.  

Can we actually have a presidential debate where breaking news that just 
emerged, an eyewitness, a credible eyewitness, a former Naval officer is 
completely ignored in the debate? Can that actually happen by the 
moderator?  

DEVINE:  Well, let's say, I would not be surprised at all. And also, we 
will probably see, as we did in the first debate, that the moderator will 
shut down President Trump when he tries to raise it and you know, now she 
has a mute button.  

CARLSON:  It's hard to see how we return to a normal media landscape after 
this. It's -- I never imagined we'd live in a country like this.  

Miranda Devine, thank you. Appreciate it.  

DEVINE:  Thanks, Tucker.  

CARLSON:  So we're trying to clearly synthesize this as well as we can. 
This just happened. We're not making it up.  

The debate, of course, is under an hour from right now. Our coverage of 
that will continue.  

We just learned that the F.B.I. subpoenaed Hunter Biden's laptop and hard 
drive late last year as part of the money laundering probe.  

What was that about? What money laundering probe? We may have some 
indication of what that was about just ahead.  

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)  

CARLSON:  Final presidential debate. We only got two this season, because 
you know enough about Joe Biden, America. Stop asking questions.  

The final debate is just moments from now. Just ahead of the debate, I 
mean, literally an hour and a half ago, we learned a whole lot more about 
this story. FOX News is now reporting that the F.B.I. had subpoenaed that 
famous laptop, the one that wound up in the repair store outside Wilmington 
and the hard drive as part of a money laundering probe late last year.  

Is that probe still ongoing? What was it about? So many questions. None of 
which the media are addressing. NPR, the real estate media publicly funded 
radio announced and said they are not covering the story. They're just 
refusing to cover it. They are just going to ignore it because it might 
hurt their candidate.  

That's been the position of so many news organizations, but that doesn't 
mean the story isn't real. And it doesn't mean the story doesn't matter. It 
is real, it does matter. It's complicated. We're going to try to explain it 
as clearly as we can.  

Ned Ryun is the CEO of American Majority. We're happy to have him on 
tonight to help do that for us.  

So, Ned, thanks for coming on tonight.  

NED RYUN, FOUNDER AND CEO, AMERICAN MAJORITY:  Absolutely. Good to be with 
you.  

CARLSON:  We just learned at minimum, and I think it's fair to take at 
least the outlines of what this man, Tony Bobulinski is saying at face 
value, because he has evidence to support his claims that Joe Biden once he 
left office as Vice President was doing business or trying to do business 
with people connected to the communist government of China.  

Now, that's not a story about Hunter Biden, this is a story about Joe 
Biden. Tell us why that is an important story to know more about.  

RYUN:  No, that's exactly right, Tucker. This is not the Hunter Biden's 
scandal. Hunter was just the bag man. He was the straw man.  

Joe Biden, the big guy, is that the head of the Biden cartel. This is about 
Joe Biden. This is the Joe Biden scandal and all roads lead back to him.  

You know, I guess the question I have about the F.B.I. and it looks like 
they've had this computer for almost a year now. I would like them to 
clearly state, if it was acquired almost a year ago, why we just now heard 
about it. Is it part of an ongoing investigation into foreign business 
deals and money laundering? Or if they're not going to state that, we might 
just come to the conclusion that they were trying to memory hole it and 
maybe put their thumb on the scale for their boy, Joe Biden?  

I think what we've really come to the conclusion and had enough evidence, 
though, Tucker in the last few days, Joe Biden was clearly lying to the 
American people when he said he didn't know anything about Hunter Biden's 
business dealings. He was intimately acquainted, and according to some 
sources, actually at meetings.  

And so I think what we have here is Joe Biden is a corrupt liar who was 
compromised on China, and I think the American people deserve to know 
before November 3rd, specifically, how financially tied was Joe Biden or is 
Joe Biden to the barbaric and genocidal Communist Chinese regime?  

The American people deserve to know because China is one of the biggest 
issues here in the 2020 elections.  

CARLSON:  Oh, I don't know. You should have listened to the F.B.I. the 
other night. They announced the real threat to the United States is Iran 
and Russia, but not China. No one ever mentions China. Maybe now we know 
why they don't mention China.  

RYUN:  But this -- people need to understand the issue in 2020, the 
elections, will America be able to confront moving forward, the communist 
Chinese and their Imperial designs for the world? And I will say this, if 
there is a President Joe Biden, God forbid that there is, I think he still 
can compromise that he wouldn't be able to, couldn't actually confront them 
on any trade issues on any technology issues when he actually put us on a 
path to being a tributary state to China. And  

I've thought about this, Tucker. I think that this is the most important 
election in U.S. history, but even more so, in world history, because if 
America is imploded internally by a compromised Biden, the world is China's 
if Joe wins.  

CARLSON:  Yes, it is clearly a pivot point in history. Clearly, that's not 
an overstatement. One thing that will never be the same is the American 
media, ever. A deck has been completely reshuffled. This is not -- you 
know, we're not making an accusation of liberal bias. They're liberal. Yes, 
of course, they are liberal, they've always been liberal.  

This is very different.  

RYUN:  They are propagandists.  

CARLSON:  Well, this is collusion, flat out collusion between the richest 
people in the world, the tech monopolies, the American news media, and the 
Democratic Party. And who does that leave without representation? Oh, I 
don't know, the entire American middle class.  

I mean, these are big questions now. It's not just about liberal bias, I 
would say, anymore.  

RYUN:  That's right.  

CARLSON:  Ned Ryun, thank you for framing this, I think in the terms that 
it deserves.  

RYUN:  Thank you, Tucker,  

CARLSON:  As we said, and as you know, the debate is just ahead. Of course, 
we're going to cover that, but starting now and continuing through the 
debate, you can access exclusive live blogs and instant analysis of the FOX 
News Democracy 2020 Live Experience. Think of it like a companion to 
tonight's debate.  

You could log in by heading over to foxnews.com/2020live or open the camera 
app on your phone and scan the QR code you see on your screen. We will be 
covering all of it, and these brand new developments right here on FOX. 
We'll be right back.  

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)  

CARLSON:  You know, it seems like just the other day they were telling us 
that Ukraine was the single most important country in the world. They 
impeached the President over Ukraine. Do you remember that?  

All of a sudden you're not allowed to talk about Ukraine. We won't be 
talking about Ukraine tonight at the debate or China for that matter. 
Traditionally, the last presidential debate is about foreign policy, but 
not tonight. It's about climate change.  

So given the news that just broke about the former Vice President's ties to 
the government of China, will anyone mention this other than the President 
at the debate tonight? And if he mentions it, will he be allowed to keep 
speaking?  

Dana Perino is the host of "The Daily Briefing" on FOX and she joins us 
tonight. Dana, thanks so much for coming on.  

DANA PERINO, FOX NEWS HOST:  Hi.  

CARLSON:  So, I understand these things are planned in advance, just like 
your show is planned in advance, so is mine. But you know, things happen at 
the last minute and you make accommodations because you're in the news 
business, your job is to bring information to the public.  

Will the Debate Commission pivot, given what just happened and address 
this, do you think?  

PERINO:  Well, I think there is plenty of opportunities to actually bring 
it up because it pulls on a lot of different strings on a lot of different 
topics. Right? And I do think that President Trump is going to bring it up, 
even if the moderator doesn't.  

CARLSON:  For sure.  

PERINO:  He would probably hope, I mean, for his sake, if he can do so 
clearly and be able to explain it with a summation that makes perfect sense 
to people that are just maybe tuning in for the first time and are hearing 
about the story for the first time, maybe in the last day or two, then yes, 
I think they help bring it up.  

The question I have is, how does Biden respond? Does he respond calmly? 
Does he get angry? Does he dismiss it as if it's nothing? Does he try to 
blow it off? And does President Trump have the ability to press them?  

Now, the moderator can't mute them when they are having a discussion back 
and forth. That's only for the opening statement for each topic, which I 
actually think plays to both of their strengths, and I think it's good for 
the people that are watching, at least for those two minutes.  

CARLSON:  So you've got a good track record of predicting Joe Biden's 
behavior, I will say a much better track record than I do. How do you think 
Joe Biden will respond tonight when the President inevitably brings this 
up?  

PERINO:  Well, he remember he called a lid on his campaign on Monday 
morning at 9:15 a.m., and so he's had a lot of time to prepare for this 
debate, and so presumably, he has a response.  

I have thought that it was kind of surprising that nobody on the campaign 
even on background would try to soften up this ground and, you know, bat 
this away or answer this in any sort of concrete way or substantive way. 
They're just hoping that it kind of dies on the vine.  

And look, Tucker, 43 million Americans have already voted in this election. 
So the people who are left to persuade tonight, there's not many of them, 
but would it dampen Democratic turnout, especially for Bernie Brothers? 
Right? That might -- that have never been excited about voting for Joe 
Biden anyway.  

Is this a storyline that might make them decide? You know, I'm just not 
going to go to the polls. I don't know if we have that information yet. We 
will know a lot more tomorrow morning.  

CARLSON:  I wonder, do you think, I mean, this is a little off topic, but I 
can't resist. Do you think that maybe Republicans in Washington regret 
allowing the Democratic Party to change the rules of voting, of our 
election system, clearly to their advantage, and allowing, you know, a huge 
percentage of Americans to vote before they know all the facts?  

PERINO:  You mean, because so many states allowed mail-in voting because of 
coronavirus?  

CARLSON:  Sure, and if the democrats take Congress, they will codify it 
like this will be every election from now on, we will work this way because 
it works for them.  

PERINO:  Well, the Congress doesn't have a lot to do with it. But I will 
tell you that the Democrats are well poised to pick up a lot of seats in 
the State Houses, and that's why you'll see it for sure, Tucker, for sure.  

And that also deals with redistricting. And for this election, there's a 
lot more than just the presidential office at stake here. You're talking 
about the United States Senate. It's unlikely that the Republicans would 
ever be able to win back the House. And in fact, it's likely that they're 
going to lose more seats in the House.  

It's those State Representative and State Senates or State Houses and State 
Senates that you're going to have to really watch because that's where all 
that work gets done. When it comes to redistricting, and decisions on how 
you're going to vote in the future.  

Many states have figured out how to do mail-in voting very well, Florida is 
one of them. They really figured things out after 2000. You remember all of 
that.  

But a state like Pennsylvania that's doing this kind of for the first time 
and on a grander scale. That could be what keeps us up really late on 
Election Night or possibly for the next few days after.  

CARLSON:  Dana Perino for us tonight. Great to see you. Thank you, Dana.  

PERINO:  Hey, see you later.  

CARLSON:  So when this story first broke in "The New York Post" last week, 
the Biden campaign immediately dismissed it as the work of Vladimir Putin, 
the dastardly Vladimir Putin, nexus of the world's evil. And the media, not 
surprisingly, repeated that lie.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)  

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR:  There are fears that what Giuliani is now 
pushing here in the United States could actually be part of Russia's latest 
and very massive disinformation campaign.  

MIKA BRZEZINSKI, MSNBC HOST:  It's Russia using Rudy Giuliani as a conduit 
for disinformation against Joe Biden?  

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  So this looks like Russian Intelligence. This walks 
like Russian intelligence. This sounds like Russian intelligence.  

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  He is feeding something to a senior citizen who 
happens to be the President who is very receptive to this misinformation. 
What danger does this pose to all of us in this country?  

JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST:  Russian hoax, come on. It is really history. 
History will expose you all as fools and useful idiots for the Russians.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)  

CARLSON:  What kind of damage does it do to the United States to lie about 
the behavior of another nuclear armed power on the basis of no evidence 
whatsoever? But the point for tonight, is will this explanation suffice 
going forward now that we know much more? Can they continue to blame it on 
the Russians?  

Brit Hume is our senior political analyst here at FOX and for good reason. 
He joins us tonight. Brit, great to see you.  

BRIT HUME, FOX NEWS SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST:  It's because I'm the oldest.  

CARLSON:  No, because you're the wisest. You don't get that title by 
accident. So is this enough? I mean, because there's much more meat on 
these bones, even than five hours ago. Can they continue to claim it's from 
Putin?  

HUME:  Well, I'm sure they will try and I'm sure certain elements of the 
media will agree with them and thereby continue to try to at least ignore 
the story. You know, I said, Tucker back when the Russia collusion 
accusation collapsed at the end of the Mueller investigation when they 
didn't find it, after a two-year investigation with all the investigative 
resources of the Federal government at their disposal that that outcome was 
-- it pointed out the fact that what I thought was the biggest media fiasco 
of all time had occurred.  

That is to say, the wild goose chase after Russia -- Trump-Russia collusion 
that went on for more than two years.  

This could be as bad because here we have this story. Yes, I can understand 
the skepticism about it at the beginning, you know, because of its 
provenance, you know, you've got Rudy Giuliani, who is, you know, Trump's 
pal in the middle of it, and you've got all this coming out very late in 
the campaign.  

And you know, seasoned journalists should naturally be skeptical of things 
like that, but too much now has been added to the record on this, including 
this most recent development tonight Mr. Bobulinski coming out and saying 
on his own authority about what he personally heard. He is now a live 
witness.  

He is going to be called before a congressional committee apparently. He 
will probably testify under oath.  

So this has reached a new dimension tonight, and if the media continued to 
ignore it, I think they are letting themselves in for some very serious 
trouble down the road.  

CARLSON:  Well, it seems so reckless to me. I mean, here they are saying 
out loud that certain well-known figures in American life, Rudy Giuliani, 
whatever you think of him, they are suggesting that he is a Russian agent.  

What does that tell you about what -- if they can call Rudy Giuliani a 
Russian agent, accuse him of treason, why can't they call you a white 
nationalist to put you in jail? I mean, this kind of talk is really 
reckless, is it not?  

HUME:  Well, what I think is the case, if they're really -- what they are 
really saying is that Rudy Giuliani is being used. I'm not sure they think 
he is a Russian agent, although I wouldn't be surprised to hear that 
accusation as well.  

CARLSON:  Yes, they made it.  

HUME:  But at this point, I mean, we're way past that now. I mean, the fact 
that Rudy Giuliani was involved in passing this on at some point, 
journalists have to say, okay, I'm not crazy about him. I'm not -- I'm 
suspicious or skeptical of the source of this.  

But my Lord, here is a bunch of corroborating information and here is a 
live human being who has come forward now and is apparently prepared to 
testify under oath that, you know, at risk of being charged with perjury, 
about what he heard and saw, and it's not just now about Hunter Biden and 
what Joe Biden -- use of Joe Biden's name, it's about Joe Biden himself 
identified as having participated in conversations of a nature that he said 
he'd never had and never knew about and never had anything to do with.  

So this thing is out there and it's live. And, you know, it will be very 
interesting to see whether the debate moderator tonight poses the question 
and mentions the new information, and see if it falls to Trump to do it, it 
won't be as effective because he is an interested party.  

CARLSON:  I mean, it is -- our producers just put this in the prompter. 
This is an update. So just moments ago, Symone Sanders said, and we're 
quoting, "If the President decides to amplify these latest smears against 
the Vice President and his only living son, (meaning tonight) that is 
Russian disinformation." I feel like we're offering the rhetorical stakes 
to a place where we can't kind of come back from this.  

HUME:  Yes, but that -- you know, to any seasoned journalist or observer, 
that's not going to wash or it shouldn't wash. I mean, it's -- you know, I 
mean, look, the question that arises is, it's this. If there's no improper 
conduct here and these e-mails and these conversations that we know about 
don't mean what they appear to mean, Joe Biden should come out and deny it, 
or someone in real authority in his campaign should come out and deny it on 
his behalf and say what the real story is.  

The fact that that doesn't -- hasn't happened, it hasn't even come close to 
happening. And this Symone Sanders statement emphasizes that further, to 
make any smart journalist say, wait a minute, if this isn't so, why don't 
they deny it? Why not? That would be -- that would be the fastest way to 
get rid of the story, if you have a truthful denial. The fact that that 
hasn't come is telling.  

CARLSON:  I just wonder if there are any of those journalists left. There's 
certainly a lot of -- or there are some smart journalists anyway, but the 
peer pressure is so intense for journalists to play along with the Biden 
campaign. I mean, you saw a National Public Radio announcer say they're 
just not going to cover the Ukraine story, because they just don't want to 
cover it.  

Has that ever -- I've never heard anybody say that before.  

HUME:  They're saying they won't cover this story at all because they don't 
think there's anything to it. And of course, as the evidence mounts, that 
becomes an increasingly untenable position. It'll be interesting to see if 
they move off of it.  

I suspect, you know, there were a lot of stories done when this story first 
came out, following up by doing what? By investigating what was going on 
inside "The New York Post." And there were -- you know, there were reports 
of anonymous staff members of "The New York Post" not wanting their names 
on the story and all of that.  

But it seems to me that all falls by the wayside now in light of what's now 
emerging. I mean, you know, these three phones. Somebody is going to look 
at those and they're either going to show something or they're not. The 
laptop either shows something or it doesn't, it appears that it certainly 
does.  

So I think this becomes, you know, past the point of these sort of 
frivolous denials and claims of Russian disinformation. They shouldn't 
stand in the way -- in the end, they won't stand. And if the media 
continued to play the way they have, the mainstream media, and make no 
mistake about it, Tucker, the mainstream media are still dominant.  

I mean, yes, you know, you've got talk radio out there. It's pretty 
conservative. You've got the editorial pages of "The Wall Street Journal" 
that are pretty conservative. You've got FOX News with many conservative 
players on the team here. But we are -- we, conservatives in this country 
are still way in the minority in the media, and in the mainstream media are 
dominant and it would make a big difference in how this all develops if the 
mainstream media were playing it straight. It's not.  

CARLSON:  No. I mean, the biggest media players in the world are Google and 
Facebook and they are aligned with the Democratic Party and the government 
of China, and that's not an overstatement. It's true.  

Brit Hume, great to see you.  

HUME:  Yes, thanks, Tucker.  

CARLSON:  So we know that people watching tonight will at least get a sense 
that something is going on, even if they get their news from National 
Public Radio, because the President is bringing Tony Bobulinski to the 
debate tonight.  

Just moments ago, a top Biden adviser dismissed Bobulinski's statement and 
the evidence he provided, saying this quote, "If the President decides to 
amplify these latest smears against the Vice President and his only living 
son. That is Russian disinformation."  

Now, keep in mind that Tony Bobulinski a former Naval officer, who 
apparently served this country with distinction, a registered Democrat who 
gave money to Democratic candidates. So they are saying he is part of a 
Russian disinformation campaign.  

We've come to a place again, it's going to be hard to pull back from. Where 
are we exactly? Newt Gingrich has been around politics for a long time. He 
is the former Speaker of the House, and for perspective, we're happy to 
have him on tonight.  

Mr. Speaker, thanks for coming on. Assess what you're seeing -- what we're 
seeing unfold in real-time here, if you would?  

NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE:  Well, you have this amazing 
moment when you have three parallels scandals. You have a scandal of a 
remarkably corrupt Biden family. You have a scandal of how the Biden 
campaign and the news media collaborate to hide the corruption. And you 
have the scandal of Facebook and Twitter behaving as though they are part 
of Communist China.  

In fact, in the case of Facebook, we've now learned they have 12 Chinese 
communist specialists in censorship in an office in Seattle working on the 
algorithms to censor us.  

So these three scandals, I can't, frankly, Tucker, think of anything 
comparable to this in terms of the penetration the American system, and let 
me just give you one fact that people haven't even brought up yet.  

The Chinese communist gave $70 million to the University of Pennsylvania. 
Joe Biden, while he was out of office, earned $911,000.00 from the 
Institute towards the Chinese gave the money. So you have to ask the 
question -- and it's all secret. They will not reveal any details.  

So you have to ask the question: does this mean that the Vice President was 
basically on the Chinese Communist payroll between leaving office and 
running for President? And all of that data, by the way comes from his 
personal taxes and public documents. I mean, none of that is made up. None 
of it is in any way questionable. It's just a fact.  

And you see this, as a matter of fact, I just did a podcast we will release 
tomorrow night, when we go through all the elements of the Biden family 
corruption, because it's not about Hunter. It's about the family and the 
way in which Joe Biden lent himself to make millions of dollars, I mean, at 
least $200 million or $300 million are at stake in the scale of their 
personal corruption. So, it's a remarkable moment.  

CARLSON:  And of course, we're not talking about Luxembourg or even 
Bahrain. We're talking about our chief global rival on the cusp of taking 
over the world. Again, not an overstatement. Who is paying for the 
infrastructure of the entire continent of Africa or the Caribbean? It is 
China.  

This is a race they are winning. And they may be paying off the guy who 
could be President a week and a half. Thank you. Mr. Speaker, I appreciate 
your coming on tonight.  

GINGRICH:  Thank you.  

CARLSON:  So you've heard almost nothing about illegal immigration during 
this election cycle. That's odd. It's weird, but it doesn't mean the issue 
has gone away. It still affects many Americans on many levels, primarily 
economic, but also others.  

For example, on Tuesday, a veteran of the Houston Police Department just 
died. He was shot by an illegal immigrant from El Salvador, another suspect 
was wounded in that shooting, another officer rather.  

The suspect has been arrested at least four previous times, dating all the 
way back 26 years to 1994. So the question is, why are people like that 
able to stay in this country for 26 years illegally?  

Ken Cuccinelli is the Acting Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security, and 
we're happy to have him on tonight. Mr. Cuccinelli, thanks so much for 
coming on.  

KEN CUCCINELLI, ACTING DEPUTY DIRECTOR, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY 
AND 
ACTING DIRECTOR, U.S. CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION SERVICES:  Good to see 
you.  

CARLSON:  We haven't talked much about this issue. It might be worth 
knowing why at some point, but for right now, we haven't. And it doesn't 
mean that this stuff isn't happening. How was this guy able to stay in this 
country illegally for decades?  

CUCCINELLI:  Well, he certainly entered illegally back in 1989. And as you 
noted, he had four previous criminal arrests, at least one of them 
convictions and none of those prior administrations worked with local 
authorities to remove him.  

And you know, who is most likely to commit crime? People who've done it in 
the past. And that's why we prioritize removing criminal aliens under 
President Trump. And it's why we fight sanctuary cities so hard.  

CARLSON:  This is one of those issues that a lot of people in politics on 
both sides are afraid to talk about. But why is it so hard to stick up for 
Americans whose wages are being undermined and there are many of those or 
whose family members have been killed or injured by people who should have 
no right to be here in the first place? Why is that so hard to talk about?  

CUCCINELLI:  Well, certainly, this President has no problem talking about 
it. He fights very hard for average Americans and you mentioned something 
very important, Tucker. You know, immigration isn't just about the rule of 
law, it is also about the opportunity for Americans to get jobs that 
otherwise go to other people. And this President has zeroed in on that 
problem.  

And it is at least a part of driving the unemployment down to three and a 
half percent as he did before COVID hit. All the elements of his policies 
work together, and when COVID did hit and unemployment spiked, he also in 
June, as you'll recall, stopped the entry of temporary foreign workers so 
Americans can get back to work in opening up job slots first.  

CARLSON:  I can think of a few things more important than that. Secretary 
Cuccinelli, thanks so much for coming on tonight. Appreciate it.  

CUCCINELLI:  My pleasure. Good to talk to you, Tucker.  

CARLSON:  So we've got about three and a half minutes before we toss to 
Bret and Martha to set the table for the debate tonight, but before we go, 
we invited as we always do, Professor Victor Davis Hanson, to discuss how 
the President ought to approach tonight's debate.  

He is a fellow of the Hoover Institution, as you know. Professor, thanks so 
much for coming on. What do you think the President ought to do tonight?  

VICTOR DAVIS HANSON, SENIOR FELLOW, HOOVER INSTITUTION:  Thank you. Well, 
it's a very different situation it was two weeks ago. He is not that far 
behind. I think he is actually even.  

So he needs to smile, have good optics. Let Joe Biden talk for two minutes. 
I know that wasn't the intent of the Commission to help Trump, but when Joe 
Biden talks for a minute, he is uninterrupted, he has problems.  

And if Trump will smile and not roll his eyes or not frown and let Joe 
Biden do that, in other words, he should approach the debate with a smile, 
talk softly and carry a big stick and I think Joe Biden will be loud with a 
twig.  

On the issues, we know they're going to be biased. They always are. It's 
going to be climate change, climate change, racism, racism, and COVID, 
COVID. And all them can be dismissed, I think, to get to the real issues.  

But I would just say, you know, Mr. Biden, I didn't insult African-
Americans and say, you ain't black. I wouldn't think of that, and I don't 
traffic in fossil fuel companies from abroad like you did with Burisma and 
your family.  

And if you look at the data on COVID with European countries where 
comparable, we had a problem with four blue states: Massachusetts, New 
Jersey, and New York that made some bad decisions, but I don't need 
lectures from you on that.  

And I want to ask you a question. Here's what he needs to say. Were you 
telling the truth when you denied any involvement with foreign agents and 
lobbyists that were working to gain influence? And when you said you had no 
knowledge of your son's business, are you telling the truth now when the 
evidence contradicts everything? Which is it? Are you lying then or are you 
lying now? Were you telling the truth then? And I don't think he can answer 
that.  

I think class is really important very quickly, Tucker, because Donald 
Trump can say that America -- I lost money to go in government, Joe Biden 
went into government to make money. And this China and the Ukraine 
machinations remind us of that.  

Donald Trump took risks. He is one with a working classes. Hundred million 
people are making food, fuel and stuff for us. You can't run a presidency 
or country from your basement anymore. You can't run a candidacy.  

And finally, I really think he needs to appeal in a bipartisan fashion. He 
has to say whether you're Republican or Democrat, red or blue, liberal or 
conservative, you don't have a country if you don't have a police, if you 
don't have a border, if the people in Washington are going to sell their 
souls out to foreign countries to destroy your souls.  

And finally, America, Joe Biden said, was an old idea. Wrong tense. Wrong 
now. America is a reality. It's a living reality.  

CARLSON:  That's right.  

HANSON:  We saw it in World War I, World War II, and the Cold War. We see 
it right now. And I think that bipartisan appeal will be very effective 
with swing voters.  

CARLSON:  It certainly is reality. The rest of us live here, for example; 
and so do our kids.  

Victor Davis Hanson, great to see you tonight. Thank you for that.  

HANSON:  Thank you.  

CARLSON:  The incumbent President of the United States, the former Vice 
President of the United States together for the last time together on a 
debate stage in about 10 minutes.  

We will be back tomorrow 8:00 p.m. Eastern to recap what you're about to 
see tonight.  

But first, we're going to head over to Bret Baier and Martha MacCallum as 
they count down to tonight's final presidential debate. Bret and Martha.  

MACCALLUM:  Thank you, Tucker. And good evening, everybody. Welcome to 
Nashville, Tennessee, where the final debate of 2020's election is just 
about to get underway moments from now. I'm Martha MacCallum.  

BAIER:  And I am Bret Baier. We are live inside the Debate Hall here on the 
campus of Belmont University, and as if this election hasn't made enough 
history, we're seeing yet another first tonight in the form of a mute 
button that will allow the candidates to speak uninterrupted for two 
minutes on each topic before opening it up for discussion.  

MACCALLUM:  We've just been hearing from the Debate Commission on stage and 
they are hoping that this measure will prevent a repeat of last month's 
raucous debate that some people thought was a bit too chaotic, even ugly at 
times by the wake of the new developments on the Biden family's overseas 
business ventures and the President's eagerness to address them.  

It remains to be seen how this will all play out this evening. We're going 
to be watching.  

BAIER:  Right now, officials are making some opening remarks on the stage 
where the candidates will be properly socially distanced. They dropped the 
Plexiglas barriers. They've been removed after both candidates tested 
negative for COVID-19.  

MACCALLUM:  We have got an all-star panel here tonight: Chris Wallace, Brit 
Hume, Dana Perino, Juan Williams, Katie Pavlich, Donna Brazile, and Karl 
Rove.  

Chris, let's go to you first as we get ready to get underway here this 
evening. Your thoughts?  

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR:  Well, the key is obviously Donald Trump, 
if he does what he did in the first debate, interrupt 145 times, the debate 
won't be very good. I think the country will be frustrated. And if you 
believe the polls, and also the President's debate advisers, it'll only 
hurt the President.  

If on the other hand, he follows the advice that they are all giving them, 
which is let Joe Biden speak, let him get into trouble with some of the 
things he says and then pick it apart in a very surgical way, then I think 
we'll have a more interesting debate and a better debate.  

And conceivably, it'll turn things around. Now, the stakes could not be 
higher tonight. If we have a repeat of the first debate, I think there's a 
possibility that Joe Biden could put his race away. On the other hand -- 
because he is clearly leading at this point.  

If the President has a good night in these final 12 days, he has the 
opportunity to turn it around so the stakes could not be higher.  

BAIER:  The stakes are high. Brit, your thoughts?  

HUME:  Well, not to call attention to the elephant in the room here. But, 
you know, we've had a fairly major news development tonight with the 
emergence of this man, Bobulinski with his claim that takes the Hunter 
Biden scandal, if that's what you want to call it, a step further, and 
makes it also the Joe Biden scandal.  

And it will be very interesting to see how that is raised, if indeed it is. 
We understand that Mr. Bobulinski will be in the audience tonight, a guest 
of Mr. Trump. It will be interesting to see if the President decides that 
he is going to raise this issue or if the moderator doing what I think an 
ordinary, you know, news interested moderator would do, raises it herself, 
which I think would put more pressure on the former Vice President.  

So that is going to be an interesting element and certainly one to watch 
for although there is, as Chris suggest, many other issues as well.  

MACCALLUM:  We just watched a moment ago, the Trump family entered. They 
were wearing masks and they have been seated in the front row as we get 
ready for this.  

Dana Perino, your thoughts as we count down the minutes here tonight.  

PERINO:  I think the mute button, we can be sure of one thing, President 
Trump is not going to be muted by anybody. He will get his points across 
tonight. And I think that a lot of his team are thinking we're just going 
to have to let Trump be Trump, and that has worked for them in the past.  

And I think that tonight, he knows that this election is something that he 
wants to win and that he really needs to perform well.  

I do remember, of course, that Alexander Hamilton was given advice by Aaron 
Burr in the musical to talk less and smile more, and I think that given the 
last debate in which he did not let Joe Biden finish his sentence that 
you'll see that tonight for sure.  

MACCALLUM:  Of course, Alexander Hamilton said, you can't be serious.  

BAIER:  And Dana, if you want to sing it, it's fine. You can go ahead and 
sing the tune.  

PERINO:  I'll spare you.  

BAIER:  Juan, expectation for tonight.  

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS HOST:  Well, I think, Bret, it's pretty clear that 
President Trump needs to somehow shake up the dynamic of this race in a big 
way. He needs things to change, and he is coming at the last moment.  

Joe Biden, on the other hand, I think needs to demonstrate a good closing 
argument just as again reaffirm his lead in the polls, as we've heard.  

But this is a historic debate in the sense that we are in a moment of 
tremendous coronavirus sweeping the country. And you know, even tonight, 
just to you know, look at the stage to understand the limited size of that 
audience in the room. You know for us who were here in 2008, for that 
debate, way back, McCain and Obama, it's a different moment.  

And right now, there are so many voters who have voted early and there are 
so few undecided voters. And that, again, is just different than we would 
expect coming into this moment. I don't think that there are too many 
voters who have not made up their mind at this juncture.  

MACCALLUM:  The First Lady, Melania Trump just seated moments ago. She and 
her husband have both experienced COVID-19 since the last time we all got 
together in this debate environment. Katie Pavlich, your thoughts on 
tonight?  

KATIE PAVLICH, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR:  Well, we talk about whether, you 
know, the ultimate question of whether this debate will move the needle, I 
mean, we have to remember back in 2016, President Trump won, but he won by 
very slim margins. We're talking about half a percentage point in the 
states where Joe Biden, and Donald Trump are currently battling it out.  

President Trump plans to hit the campaign trail as soon as they get done 
with this debate over the weekend. Whether Joe Biden will do the same, 
depending on how it goes is a big question.  

But for President Trump, I think he has to hinge on the idea that this 
Gallup poll that just recently came out shows that set 57 percent of 
Americans believe they are better off now than they were four years ago, 
and the President has to explain why that is and why they feel like they 
are better off now than they were under an Obama-Biden administration.  

On the issue of stability, I think it'll be really interesting to watch how 
Joe Biden handles these new revelations about his connections to these 
foreign business dealings, his son. He has been asked very few questions 
about this. And when he has been asked on the campaign trail, he gets very 
defensive in his answers, so we'll see if he can hold it together tonight 
on that topic.  

BAIER:  Karl, what are the expectations from President Trump? What does he 
need to do? Who does he need to talk to?  

KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR:  Well, he needs to talk to that small 
group of people are undecided, it might be six percent, eight percent, ten 
percent of the electorate that is still undecided, or weakly linked to 
their choice.  

And the President needs to begin the process tonight of laying out the 
message, the theme for the last 12 days of the campaign.  

It's ironic, isn't it? We're going to have -- we've got 47 million people 
who voted. That's more than a third of who voted four years ago. It's 
probably about a quarter of the people who are going to vote this year. And 
yet, even with all those people having voted, the people who are going to 
decide this election are those that are up for grabs, who are probably 
going to wait to the end and vote on Election Day.  

And tonight, the press coverage about tonight and then the statements of 
the candidates as they go out this Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday, and 
set the tone for the last week. Really critical to have a seamless movement 
from tonight, through Monday and to build on a deliberate plan to shape the 
last week of the campaign.  

MACCALLUM:  Kristen Welker on the stage right now from NBC, the moderator 
for this evening, Donna, quick thought before we get started here.  

DONNA BRAZILE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR:  I can give you Joe Biden's closing 
argument in two words, look around. Look around the millions of Americans 
who have been infected by this disease. Look around and see the millions of 
Americans unemployed. Look around, and of course, see that over 200,000 of 
our neighbors and coworkers and family members have died because of this 
disease and the President mishandling.  

And so this tonight, Joe Biden needs to be very clear with the American 
people. With a Biden-Harris administration, there's a future that we all 
can be part of.  

So that's my closing argument for Joe Biden, look around.  

BAIER:  Brit, as you look around, you mentioned the development today, how 
much do you think the President will focus on this as opposed to his pitch 
perhaps on the economy, which polls very well. Our recent poll has him up 
on the economy in the key battleground states?  

HUME:  Well, I think it's a tricky thing to try to pull off because if we 
had an honest press in this country, which we once did have, not recently, 
however, he wouldn't have to raise this very much. He could put it in ads 
or whatever, and stay above it. But he can't count on that.  

So he may have -- he may be the only person who raise it because he is the 
only person who was willing to do so, but in doing so, he has got to not do 
that at the expense of making the case that he didn't really fail on 
coronavirus. He has a better record than you think. That's a challenge in 
itself to make that case because so many people think otherwise. But he 
does have an argument there.  

He has also got to point to some of the things that Katie suggested 
resulted in people telling Gallup, the Gallup polling organization, 56 
percent of them saying that they were better off than they were four years 
ago. He needs to remind them of that.  

And he also needs to do all this without reminding people of the 
personality qualities and the behavior problems or issues that people say 
they don't like. So that is quite a tall order for him, Bret.  

BAIER:  It will be something to watch. There's a lot of balancing here as 
we are just now 11 days away from Election Day and it's a big moment. It's 
a big moment for both candidates on the stage.  

Standby, we are to restart here from Belmont University.  

Good evening and welcome to the final debate of the 2020 campaign live 
tonight in Nashville, Tennessee. I'm Bret Baier.  

MACCALLUM:  And I'm Martha MacCallum live inside the Debate Hall on the 
campus of Belmont University.  

Tonight, the candidates are about to walk out to their lecterns. Any moment 
now, they are going to make their closing arguments to you, the American 
people with 12 days to go until this presidential election.  

BAIER:  The first question tonight will go to President Trump kicking off 
the final showdown in a race that almost 50 million Americans have already 
voted.  

MACCALLUM:  Extraordinary. Tonight's debate is supposed to stick to half a 
dozen topics selected by the moderator, Kristen Welker, who we just saw her 
enter, but of course, this is 2020 and anything can happen based on what we 
saw the first time around.  

We have got 90 minutes of debates between these two candidates tonight.  

BAIER:  We also have a stocked panel. Let's go to Chris Wallace. Chris, 
you've been on this stage. You know what Kristen Welker is facing at this 
very moment. Tell us about that.  

WALLACE:  Well, I was thinking about it. I can't help it. I think every 
moderator ends up feeling empathy for somebody else who is at that chair. 
You've done a tremendous amount of work.  

I saw she had what I had, which is a loose-leaf black notebook and you've 
got tabs on each section and you've got your questions. You've got your 
facts to back up the questions. So you come in with a plan, and you're 
prepared.  

And frankly right now, you've got to settle your nerves. You've got to take 
a few breaths and just get yourself ready. Try to have some fun, although 
right now, you're not thinking about fun, you're thinking about having a 
good, serious, constructive debate, the debate the American people want to 
hear.  

MACCALLUM:  Dana, you know, this is -- it is a tense moment and you sort of 
put yourself in the position of these two, one President and one who wants 
to be President. It is an incumbent President at this point who is fighting 
to hold onto his job.  

PERINO:  Yes, in fact, I mean, I'm not even in the Debate Hall and I can 
feel the tension, so I think that it must -- I can imagine what it feels 
like in the hall.  

I also would just say this, I mean, America does democracy very well. Here 
we are. We're going to do this debate. We are in the middle of a global 
pandemic. The economy struggling to fight back but it is fighting back.  

And we have a decision to make as Americans and I just -- I put my faith in 
the American people that they will tune in and watch tonight and make good 
decisions.  

BAIER:  Karl, do you think the President's tone, tenor and demeanor, how he 
does this debate, will be different?  

ROVE:  Yes, I do. I think from what we read in the papers and what I hear 
from the sort of Trump world is that even he understands that he was a 
little too hot and too abrasive in the first one, but we were talking about 
getting nervous here, Dana mentioned it.  

I've been at the backstage of six of these things with a presidential 
candidate and then a President, and let me tell you, this is worse than 
Election Night because so much hinges on the outcome of these things.  

And particularly tonight, I think that is going to be especially true 
because there are not three debates, there are two debates. The first one 
went badly for both of them, but one guy took a hit in the polls, the other 
guy didn't. It's tension city.  

MACCALLUM:  Two men who very much want to lead this nation over the course 
of the next four years and we do live in difficult, complicated times. We 
will see how they do.  

BAIER:  Let's listen in, Kristen Welker from NBC.

Content and Programming Copyright 2020 Fox News Network, LLC. ALL 
RIGHTS RESERVED. Copyright 2020 ASC Services II Media, LLC.  All materials 
herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be 
reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast 
without the prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may 
not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of 
the content.