'The Five' on Jen Psaki sparring with Peter Doocy over domestic oil production

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'The Five' react to Jen Psaki sparring with Peter Doocy over domestic oil production

'The Five' discuss Jen Psaki's response to questions about ramping up domestic energy production.

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," March 7, 2022. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

DANA PERINO, FOX NEWS HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino along with Judge Jeanine Pirro, Harold Ford, Jr., Jesse Watters, and Brian Kilmeade. It's five o'clock in New York City, and this is THE FIVE.

Twelve days of horror in Ukraine as Vladimir Putin carves an even larger trail of destruction. Russia being accused of war crimes after raining down artillery shells on civilians trying to flee to safety. At least eight people, including children killed in a city outside of Kyiv.

Ukraine says Russia is using medieval style siege tactics to punish cities. In Mariupol where 200,000 civilians are struggling to escape, the city has been without water and power for days. With carnage and suffering increasing, Russia has now seen nearly 100 percent of its forces staged at the border into Ukraine. President Zelenskyy, once again calling on the west for more help.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE (through translator): This is murder, deliberate murder. Think of the sense of impunity of invaders. They announced their plan of atrocities and why? Because there is no reaction, because there is silence. Not a word as if western leaders dissolved tonight. The audacity of the aggressor is a clear signal to the west that sanctions against Russia are not enough.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO (on camera): Let's go to Benjamin Hall in the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv where it is, I think it's midnight there where you are, Benjamin. What's the outlook tonight?

BENJAMIN HALL, FOX NEWS STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: It is, Dana, yes. And the moment it's quiet here in Kyiv but I can tell you just a few hours ago, there were heavy shelling across large parts of the city around all the outskirts to our north, our northwest and our west.

Clearly, Vladimir Putin's forces making now an ever-bigger push for the city. Look, on the one hand today, we have seen a real escalation on the attacks of civilians. I mean, you see some of the pictures coming from cities like Kharkiv, and Mariupol and Kherson. It is devastating. The whole districts are absolutely flattened and leaving no doubt whatsoever that Putin is indiscriminately now bombing the cities, hitting schools and hospitals.

And then on the other hand, you have Putin offering humanitarian corridors, potential peace talks, but everyone here knows those are an absolute farce. You talk about humanitarian corridors, out of Mariupol yesterday where buses are supposed to go and rescue those 200,000. The Red Cross today saying that that route out had been mined, on other attempts to get them out, shells further on the buses making it impossible to evacuate anyone.

And then today, another humanitarian corridor out of six areas they were all leading to Russia and Belarus. Asking the very people who are fleeing to head right into their captives' hands. And so right now, the trust in Vladimir Putin is incredibly low.

Nevertheless, there was a third round of negotiations today between the Russians and Ukrainians in Belarus. There was no outcome specifically. They said they discussed further humanitarian efforts, but nothing really came of it. And so right now, we have this scenario where the escalation is all on Putin's side, he is hitting towns, he is hitting villages and he is inching closer to villages.

But the fact is, the Ukrainians are still doing remarkable well of holding back the Russians. And so, what the Russians have started to do, is use their longer-range weapons. We have seen them use longer-range artillery more from the air and that is a lot less precise and that's why we are seeing civilian casualties rise dramatically.

Also reports that the Stingers were being so successful at these planes that were coming in low to drop dumb bombs, those planes have just started flying a lot higher. That also means far less accuracy.

So, again, it is a scorched move at the moment the same way that we had seen in Aleppo and Grozny. It is really worrying right now what we are seeing and it is all because Ukrainians have fought so well, so bravely at holding them back that we are seeing this rise in indiscriminate attacks. Dana?

PERINO: Benjamin, thank you. Stay safe. And I'm sure we'll see you on the channel later this evening. Judge Jeanine, you know for those civilians who are trying to flee and to realize that the route that they were told that they could take was mined is very offensive -- it's just heartbreaking and offensive, and yet, here they are the Ukrainians go back to the table again today and imagine sitting across from the Russians and asking for additional humanitarian corridors.

JEANINE PIRRO, FOX NEWS CO-HOST: Well, look, the fact that they mined those evacuation corridors, the fact that they are shelling in those corridors or that those corridors lead to Russia or Belarus is an indication that this guy is not an honest actor. We've been sitting here for 12 days, OK, and talking about him.

You know, Zelenskyy put it perfectly. This is murder, deliberate murder with impunity with no consequence. And how is it that one man is allowed to up in the world like this? How is it that he is able to push everyone's buttons and basically kill indiscriminately?

Children with cancer who were simply trying to get their cancer treatment, children being killed with their families leaving. I don't need to describe it. All you have to do is turn on the television while the world watches. We're just voyeurs in this. I, you know, I understand the no-fly zone, but even Canada has said, we're not going to accept any oil from Russia.

And now, what we are doing and I don't want to get into the later part of the show, but we want to work with Venezuela. We did. We hate Maduro. We want to work with Iran. Well, aren't we going to fund the nuclear bomb with Iran? And you know, why? It's so easy to just make a left turn a lower turn and go to Texas, go to Pennsylvania.

We can be energy independent and the truth, do you remember last week, Dana, when I said 48 percent of Americans are willing to suffer and pay higher prices? Today it's 71 percent of Americans are willing to suffer the higher prices in order to help these people. People are -- we're good people across the world and this pig has got his thumb on and his knee on our neck.

PERINO: Jesse, how do you assess things today?

JESSE WATTERS, FOX NEWS CO-HOST: It's awful. I mean, this was a bad weekend for the Ukrainians for the civilians in Ukraine. And I'm not shocked anymore. I think in the beginning people were shocked by the horror that Vladimir Putin was imposing on these people. You know, it's shocking, but we shouldn't be shocked.

This guy is a barbarian. It's Napoleonic what he is doing. And it's going to get worse. And the American people have to understand that because in the beginning we thought the sanctions were super effective. And could we do this, we've never seen anything like that. It's going to get a lot worse before it gets a lot better.

And the president has not prepared the country for a long game. And this is a long game. Our American strategy, the western strategy is to turn the Russian empire into a graveyard in Ukraine. And that's going to take a very long time. And we are going to see a lot of dead bodies. And it's going to be sad.

Right now, it's -- I'm not sure in the next couple of weeks or months, the American people are going to vote the same way as they did in that poll. We are in recession territory pretty much. We are already in correction territory. We can't afford $200 oil. We can't afford $5 oil.

Joe Biden has not said, construction costs are going up. Technology costs are going up. What's he done about wheat prices? What's he done about food prices, fertilizer? The Black Sea is basically done. No one, no shipping company is going in there. No one is underwriting any sort of trade in the entire region.

So, I'm afraid that you are going to have a domino effect that's going to spiral out of control right as you come out of a recession. This country is not going to have a recovery if we are going to be hit in the face with $500 a gallon gasoline. And the American people are not prepared for this. The president has not prepared the country for this and we are heading really fast to a potential war.

Talking about a no-fly zone. People are getting trigger-happy. We are sending in planes potentially. What happens if a NATO ally sends in a plane and that NATO plane from a NATO country shoots down a Russian plane? You think Russia is going to be OK with a Polish plane shooting dead Russians at their doorstep? I don't -- I don't think Joe Biden has wrapped his head around where we're going here.

PERINO: Harold?

HAROLD FORD, JR., FOX NEWS CO-HOST: I agree with some of the things Jesse said and I disagree with a slightly different point of view. I think the elements you've laid out are exactly right. I think the president has done a lot better job of trying to prepare the country for the consequences.

In fact, even if he doesn't, we are living the consequences, we are paying more for gasoline, we are paying more for food, we are paying more for food. I call at the new PPP, protect, punish, and power back. Our interest are at risk in Ukraine, democracy, decency, humanity, sovereignty. You can't let this nation cross that line particularly in nation with the history that the Soviets has and with the language that he is talking.

We kept together NATO. It's been hard. Now I know that there is an interest on some to try to score political points with this but when problems, huge problems are in front of you, you got to solve it. And if that means bringing people together who don't disagree -- who you disagreed within the past in your party and the other party you've got to figure out how to do it. So, you got to punish Putin.

And here is where the question becomes how much and how willing are we to pay is 71, 76, 77 percent, whatever the number will be. How high will that number stay? And you raised this. If prices get to $10, $11, $12 a barrel, we've unplugged them from the world financial system. Are we willing to ban the kind of ban that people want and some are proposing on their oil and energy products, perhaps similar to what Canada did?

If we do that, those -- there are some who criticized this White House for not tackling inflation. I would dare say we've not seen inflation if we ban oil and energy products like we're seeing. And finally, we got to power back. And judge, this is where I agree with you wholeheartedly, that power back we have to think about ways to restart energy projects here in the country, be it Keystone be it on other leases on lands that we're not. There was some talk in the White House about doing that. I think they need to go further.

PERINO: Yes.

FORD: And we have to be serious and intentional about helping the Europeans. The Marshall Plan after this effort here is a Marshall Plan to help the Europeans find new energy sources. No nation should be dependent on Iran, Venezuela, or Russia for energy sources.

We were able to get off Middle East oil and energy products after 9/11. We have to make that the legacy of this effort once we are able to get out --

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: We're going to have it --

FORD: -- of this awful episode we are in right now.

PERINO: Sorry. We are going to have a chance to talk about energy in the next block. Do you want to -- you know, you had a very interesting guest, Robert Gates on your show on Saturday night. Is there anything that he said on Saturday that now you look to Monday and say, aha, that's what he meant?

BRIAN KILMEADE, FOX NEWS CO-HOST: We got to choke this guy out now. I think Bob Gates who is secretary of defense for Republican and Democrat, was a CIA director worked for seven presidents. I thought he was a perfect person to say this is historic time. And I think what he was trying to say is Vladimir Putin is a bad actor and nothing we will ever do will change the way he is.

Not much different than the guy he dealt with when he came in after President Obama when he came in for President Bush replacing Don Rumsfeld and then for President Obama. And he thought it was a huge mistake when President Obama said blankets and MREs when he took parts of Georgia.

So here is the thing. Jesse, as much as I agree with the sentiment, we are not living in a world in which we're calling the rules right now. Right now, we are dealing with an actor that has no interest in dialing back and coming back. This is the moment that we have to stand out and choke him out or it's going to get so much worse in two years as he takes Moldova and starts moving on the Baltic nation. And then the rule five is not going to be a gray area, it's going to be yes or no area.

Here is what I found. Macron is also on another planet. He came out and says Russia too must be respected as a country. There is no durable peace if Russia is not part of a great architectural of peace in our continent because history and geography are stubborn.

He -- Vladimir Putin is the problem. He cannot be brought in to the family of nations. We have tried and he has left in our face. He has destroyed a country. He's killing children and he doesn't care about it. He has press conference with flight attendants having a great time. He does not feel this pain.

We have to have total oil sanctions and convince the Europeans to get off oil. And my goodness, do we stand for anything? 1-800-Venezuela? Iran, we'll deal with, we'll let you fulfill what we used to get from Russia and now we are going to actually, we're actually going to say it's only 7 percent of their output is our input on their oil? So that's why we should not worry about stopping Russia's input of oil from coming into our country? Of course, we should.

We backstop with friendly nations. We have to stand for something. We don't have relations with Maduro of Venezuela. We don't recognize him. How dare we cut an oil deal with him? With Iran? Do you know what's happening with this Iranian deal? This is a travesty what's about to happen with the Iranian deal. We are going to be fueling terror in the Middle East for the next 50 years.

FORD: We'll come back to this.

PERINO: Yes. We have more to come about this because President Biden is looking to offset surging gas prices by cutting deals with a new set of dictators. We give you a preview. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER DOOCY, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: You say that you are going to do everything that you can to reduce the impact that high gas prices have on Americans. We are asking other countries to think about may be pumping more oil. Why not just do it here?

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, to be very clear, federal policies are not limiting the supplies of oil and gas. To the -- let me finish, let me finish.

DOOCY: An executive order because first week --

PSAKI: Peter --

DOOCY: -- that halted new oil and gas prices on --

(CROSSTALK)

PSAKI: Let -- let me -- let me give you the facts here. And I know that can be inconvenient, but I think they are important in this moment. There are 9,000 approved drilling permits that are not being used. So, the suggestion that we are not allowing companies to drill is inaccurate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS Jen Psaki blowing up on our very own Peter Doocy, and getting a little defensive over exploding gas prices. The cost of a gallon is now over $4 nationally. And the president's plan to deal with it is to kiss up to dictators instead of producing more oil here at home.

Biden advisors are toying with a possible trip to Saudi Arabia to beg, beg for more energy production. U.S. officials are holding rare face-to-face meetings with Venezuela. And a nuclear deal with Iran to be wrapped up at any moment.

The White House also saying no decision has been made on banning importing Russian oil. And Nikki Haley unloading on the Biden administration for funding Putin's war machine. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: We need to start standing up why are we even hoe humming around the fact that we are still taking Russian oil? Why are we doing that? Why would we take money from evil dictators? You never sleep with the devil because then the devil owns you. The Europeans are finding that out right now. We need to be smarter than that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS: We're really smarter we just open up ANWR in Alaska. Boom, case closed. You were mentioning the Iran deal that's now on the ropes because, you know, Russia is now saying, hey, hey, hey, you need us on this and they want oil from the Iranians. Where does that money go?

KILMEADE: Well, put it this way. With Russia's help we might be able to get the Iran deal we never wanted. So, and Gary Kasparov said it perfectly, who knows Vladimir Putin was exiled because of him? He said, wait a second. What do you think Vladimir Putin thinks?

This is the country that's helping us out directly or indirectly targeting nuclear power plants in the Ukraine while threatening nuclear war on us if we do x, y, and z. Now, we need Sergey Lavrov to go in there and convince Iran to act as irresponsible as they are with nuclear weapons should they get them.

So, to cut a deal that nobody wants. And Dana, I know you know this. Senator Ben Cardin voted against the 2015 deal, Senator Schumer voted against the deal, Senator Menendez voted against the deal. That's the 2015 deal when you had no -- when you had to go into military -- you are not allowed on military bases do snap inspections where they were able to use some of the money from their oil to fund terror.

Real quick to close this out. We are about to do a worse deal and the worst thing is nobody knows anything about it. They are about to do something behind closed doors that's going to affect world peace, especially in the Middle East. And because we put all those sanctions on Iran, we got the Abraham accords. Because people said, I'll take Israel and Saudi Arabia side over that evil regime.

WATTERS: And Saudi --

(CROSSTALK)

KILMEADE: But that's all gone.

WATTERS: The Saudi kings they don't want this Iran deal but Biden, tell us how this is going to look, Dana Perino? Air Force One touches down in Riyadh, and walks out on the tarmac and he greets the king and the king just -- are Americans going to go for something like that right now?

PERINO: With aviators on? Right?

WATTERS: Yes, with the aviators.

PERINO: I will forever make sure that it's clear that we were seeing record gas prices before Russia invaded Ukraine, OK?

FORD: Yes.

PERINO: So, number one when you are going to talk about energy policy in the United States, start there. And then unfortunately it looks like it is going to get worse. You have a situation now where you have basically, we are willing to look past all the human rights violations in Saudi or Venezuela. We are OK with the fact that Iran says that they want to destroy Israel, but now we are going to go and give them this deal and also maybe take their oil.

I understand that there might be needs to figure out a way to get more oil into the system if Russia is going to be cut out. I get that. But I also think that the administration continues to say, we have to transition to green energy. But they are just not sober-minded enough to say, we need to do lots of things all at once. There's going to be a shift.

If they don't announce some sort of a shift, no one is going to ever say that they did it. Them going to Saudi and Iran is not the shift --

WATTERS: Yes.

PERINO: -- that we are talking about.

WATTERS: It's not a good look.

PERINO: So, you can -- you can say that we as a nation want to get to a cleaner, greener energy future. It's going to take some time and tell the squad to sit down while you explain it. And then you walk them through and you say I'm going to put a ton of money into innovation, in the meantime, we are going to go to visit Texas. And we are going to Pennsylvania. We are going to go to northern California. We are going to go to Wyoming, Montana, all the places where the United States has energy.

We produce energy in a much more environmentally friendly way than any other country. And the squad needs to hear about that too. I think they are so worried about the left and their climate goals. And the IPCC put out another report today about the climate, we had to worry about the climate. Right now, there are people worried about actual survival of the western world.

WATTERS: Yes.

PERINO: That's what we need to think about.

WATTERS: Exactly. What's it going to look like Memorial Day weekend when people start to hit the road, fill the tank, take the kids on a trip and it's $4.50 a gallon, that's $100 to fill up your tank? How did the Democrats survive politically?

FORD: Well, it would be hard for anybody, I think it could be higher than 4.50.

PIRRO: Yes.

FORD: We got to be happy if it's $4.50 on Memorial Day.

PIRRO: Yes.

WATTERS: Twenty-five.

FORD: If you look at -- if you look at where we are --

WATTERS: Yes.

FORD: -- look where we are right now. few facts. Dana, I agree with a lot of what you said, I disagree with a little bit of it. But I agree wholeheartedly that build nuclear, frack and drill have to be part of the lexicon for any energy reform, any climate change reform bill. Just like there are crazies on the Republican side. There are unstable thinkers on the Republican side, there are unstable Democratic thinkers as well and we got to share with them all.

Two, prior to COVID, prior to COVID our barrels per day usage in America 100 million plus barrels, as much as 103 million barrels a day. We're now down as of 2021, we were at 96.2 billion barrels a day. So as demand gets back up to where we were before obviously prices could go back up.

So, Dana, to your point about some of the record prices, we went down during COVID. And we are going find ourselves going back up. Finally, this energy thing I struggle like you do with this, Brian, and it's the worst of options.

So, we ask the Saudis to produce more? There are things that we are concerned about there. There are certainly positive things or negative things. Do we go to Venezuela, or do we go to Iranians? I mean, I don't know. I would rather go he worst of those options to Venezuela because I think we can strike a simpler deal, but I'll leave that -- I'll leave that to the diplomats.

But I got to tell you, $11 a barrel versus dealing with one of those three, we have to ask voters in Pennsylvania, and Texas, and the Dakotas which one, which would they like.

WATTERS: Well, let's hear from America's greatest diplomat, Judge Jeanine.

PIRRO: Well, actually --

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS: Would you -- would you to fly out Caracas --

PIRRO: I'm the only one at the table who run for office five times.

WATTERS: OK. Would you fly to Caracas and --

(CROSSTALK)

FORD: I ran six.

PIRRO: Six? Sorry.

WATTERS: -- negotiate with the Venezuelans?

PIRRO: Not a chance.

WATTERS: No?

PIRRO: Not a chance. I don't want their oil. I don't want Iran's oil. I don't want Russian soil. I want American oil. And you know the one who made the most sense today was Elon Musk.

PERINO: Yes.

PIRRO: When Elon Musk called to increase domestic oil output while acknowledging that it's going to negatively impact his energy car business. He said extraordinary times demand extraordinary actions --

FORD: Amen.

PIRRO: -- and it was like drill, baby, drill. That's all we've got to do is drill. And you know what, don't say it's so simplistic because we did it. And when we did it, the gas was cheap and it was clean and then Biden came in and made a mess of all of it. That's all I have to say.

WATTERS: All right.

KILMEADE: You want to (Inaudible) on Russian oil (Inaudible) the other one is not backing out.

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS: Secretary of state, Judge Jeanine. Thanks, guys. All right, coming up, NATO and Biden ruling out no-fly zone in Ukraine, but is there a way to get around it? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PIRRO: President's Zelenskyy begging members of Congress for a no-fly zone over Ukraine, but Vladimir Putin says such a move would be seen as "participation in the armed conflict." The Biden administration is ruling out a new a no-fly zone but is now trying to work out a deal to send American fighter jets to Poland, if Poland sends its fighter jets to Ukraine. All right --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If for instance, the Polish government, a NATO member wants to send fighter jets, does that get a green light from the U.S.? Are you afraid that that will escalate tension?

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: No, that that gets a green light. In fact, we're talking with our Polish friends right now about what we might be able to do to backfill their needs if, in fact, they choose to provide these fighter jets to the Ukrainians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PIRRO: OK, Brian, I'll start with you. So, if it's OK to send fighter jets, according to Putin, I guess and even though Blinken said that, you know, at what point is Putin draw the line and say, you know, I believe that that's your participation in the armed conflict. I mean, it's a very subjective issue, one questions.

BRIAN KILMEADE, FOX NEWS CHANNEL CONTRIBUTOR: Who cares? Enough. We're so worried about this guy that started a war and is annihilating 3-year-old. Enough. The MIGs are going to arrive in Poland. The Polish pilots -- excuse me, the Ukrainian pilots are already on their way the first time when they thought this was a done deal, they're going to show up or they're going to fly him out. And that's going to be the story.

And here's the deal. If Poland doesn't -- if Poland worried about losing an Air Force in a time in which Russia is on the march, I understand that. So, if we have to -- we seriously we don't have extra F-16s which is unbelievable to me that we don't have some in the hangar somewhere. So, having said that, let's park them there for the next six months. Get a bunch of our F-16s. They know how to fly them. They also ordered F-33s or F-35s that are coming next year by 2024.

So, Poland is up to speed on our equipment. So, if we say listen, it's going to be a free -- it's going to be free rental for the next six months till things come down. Those F-16 are yours. Take those aging MIGs. Let the Ukrainians fly them out. Game on. We have to stop kowtowing to this belligerent little Judo guy sitting in Moscow.

PIRRO: Yes. Well, I couldn't agree more. But Dana, I mean, the truth is that we are -- we didn't even do our nuclear exercises for fear, Biden said, that it might instigate Putin. And the whole world is kowtowing to him. How do we get to the point where we put him in his place?

PERINO: Well, little Judo guy is a great nickname. We might continue to use that. I'm going to try -- I'm going to give that one a try. I think what I feel like is missing here is a little bit of the creativity that you would like to see.

I understand the administration has a -- is in a position on the no fly zone that it's going to stick to. My heart would love to do everything we possibly can to help. My head understands why a no-fly zone is not going to happen at least until there's something so provocative, right? Because Putin is the one who broke all the rules here. And he's the one who was threatening the rest of us with nuclear weapons. So, we could take out the conventional, right? But then we have the nuclear problem.

And so he -- and Putin knows that. So, Little Judo guy is sitting there thinking that he's got all the cards figured out. What he didn't understand, I don't believe, was that one, the Ukrainians would fight back as hard as they could. He also seems to be quite isolated and didn't know that his military equipment was in as in poor shape as it is. We talked about that convoy for 10 days. It's still stuck.

KILMEADE: They're out of -- and they're out gas and too old.

PIRRO: You know what, Jesse, they -- we need -- they need, it seems, more missiles that can go higher than the Stingers.

WATTERS: Higher than the Stingers?

PIRRO: Yes.

WATTERS: I don't know what those would be. I know that us --

KILMEADE: Missile defense.

PIRRO: Missile defense.

WATTERS: -- and the Israelis denied the Ukrainians the Iron Dome last year. That would come in handy.

PIRRO: Yes.

WATTERS: And that would have solved the air superiority issue. And it's too late. And we also did not get them the weaponry that they needed in the time they needed. We lacked -- we waited too long for that, too. But now here we are.

And I want to be cautious because a lot of times you have these foreign entanglements, you have these alliances that can be trip wired, and the next thing you know, you're fighting a land war in -- right next to Russia.

I do like the idea of getting the MIGs there. I mean, they're more familiar with that type of aircraft. But you got to slow up this stuff. You know, I don't trust Joe Biden to just be like throwing airplanes at this thing. He's not a smart person. And he's surrounded by lobbyists and dumb diplomats who have bumbled our way into many, many screw-ups throughout the world.

These are the same people that did the Iran deal that miscalculated Afghanistan, so now they want to like load up the Ukrainians with fighter jets., and we're doing deals with the Pols. Slow down. What happens if a Polish jet gets shot down or shoots down a Russian aircraft, Russia considers that conventional war, and who knows what happens after that?

I agree if he's dangerous and evil enough to shell civilian corridors, then what's stopping him from dropping a tactical nuclear weapon when Russia feels like its own survival is at stake?

KILMEADE: Because they're embarrassed.

PIRRO: Well, they're --

WATTERS: No, but -- they're embarrassed but they do feel they have to expand in order to survive, they feel. And if you NATO jets shooting down Russian planes, you know, right outside their borders, they're going to take that extremely seriously.

PIRRO: Harold?

FORD JR.: I think the Russian people, the pressure that's being put on them, we all hope will incentivize them to want to retire Putin. This all stops when the Russian people are brought back into the world or they're plugged back into the financial system, their oil and energy products have bought by the world again, if they retire him.

Now, there's a danger here, but I think Brian had it right. We're at war now. They're just -- they're at a higher phase than we are. And the question is, how can our escalating help deescalate this?

PIRRO: Yes.

FORD JR: I give the President a lot more credit and administration a lot more credit than some do. Have they got it all right by no means? But the escalating trying to de-escalate, I think that this is a -- it's a balancing act. They're trying their hardest to walk. But I got to tell you, I like our hand better today than we did 13 days ago.

WATTERS: Oh, I do too.

FORD JR: I know you do too.

WATTERS: Well, I like America's hand always.

FORD JR: No, no, but I'm talking about in this effort here today -- because it took 13 days ago, no one thought Ukrainians could stand up like this. And I got to tell you, Putin is having to not only try to deal with his military, try to hope he's managing right in Ukraine, and trying to restore his own polling numbers in Russia. That's a tough -- that's a tough act for him to --

KILMEADE: Harold, he's begging the Syrians to help him fight. He's out of soldiers.

PIRRO: All right, coming up --

FORD JR: Fair point.

PIRRO: The refugee crisis not seen since World War II underway in Europe. We'll go back to the ground in Ukraine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FORD JR: The massive refugee crisis in Ukraine, causing more unspeakable pain and suffering to civilians there. The U.N. says more than 1.7 million Ukrainians have fled since the war began. Mike Tobin is in Lviv, Ukraine with the latest there. Mike, the pictures are horrific. Tell us what you -- what you're seeing on the ground.

MIKE TOBIN, FOX NEWS CHANNEL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what you see are the people in these war-ravaged towns. Those who can get out are heading west, a lot of them head for the capital city of Kyiv. And they get on a train there. You don't need a ticket for this train any longer. It doesn't leave on schedule. As soon as the passenger cars are full, the train leaves and heads to this town, Lviv.

There are more trains coming in, at least more seats coming in than are going out. So, you have people piling up here in Lviv. Most people are looking to keep moving. That's why you have that 1.7 million people who have already crossed the border. A million of those have gone into Poland.

And you see Poland stepping up as best as they can. You have the government pitching in with temporary housing. They're establishing a fund that will ultimately amount to about $65.00 a piece that they'll give the people crossing the border. You have businesses that are stepping up with temporary housing and even individuals who are going as far as to cook soup for the people who are so cold as they've crossed the border.

Keep in mind that you've had about a million Ukrainians cross into Poland since 2014 as the fighting got bad here. So, you do have some diaspora there who are willing and very sympathetic. So, they're very willing to open their doors to put a roof over these people's heads, and they get a hot meal into them because they have so much need.

You've seen remarkable things, even people leaving baby carriages there at the border. So, when they people cross with children, they have something to put them in. Guys?

FORD JR: Mike, thank you. Best to you, brother. Dana, I was watching you and Joe Burrow, Hemmer this morning. And you had a -- had a guest on from Ukraine. And this woman talked about how Russia was like a neighbor. She would compare them to an ex-husband that you can't get away from who's violent and how she felt safer and more secure leaving. But talk about that interview. And as you listen to Mike, how does that resonate?

PERINO: Well, I thought that -- I thought that she nailed it, right? If she was on THE FIVE, we would have given her permission to make an analogy and she would have gotten the award for best analogy of the year. Because she said she felt like she was being hunted and that it was never going to -- she was never going to be able to rest as long as he was her neighbor.

And when -- as a kid, I worked with -- my mom and dad worked with Lutheran World Relief on resettling refugees from the former Soviet Union in Denver, Colorado. And my sister and I would tag along on the weekends as they helped them figure out how to ride the bus and figure out, you know, where they're going to send their kids to school, where they would be able to get their favorite chicken recipes, ingredients for their recipes that they wanted to make, deliver a washer and dryer.

With these people are going through, 1.7 million of them right now, is just something that's very hard to fathom. Imagine that they said, OK, you have to go now and you have your backpack on your phone and that's it. Many people had to leave behind their pets. Many people had to leave behind their husbands, their fathers, their brothers, their uncles.

And the mental anguish that they're going through is something that the world has to figure out a way to deal with. This is similar to what we saw in terms of the refugees leaving Afghanistan. And the all the paperwork gets all boxed up, and it gets screwed up. And then you have the State Department that's going like, well, we're trying, we're trying.

The Polish people have done a great job, so as actually Romania, Moldova, and trying to take them. But this is 1.7 million people. In Ukraine, there's four -- the population is 44 million people. So, you still have at least 42 million people there that are under his guns.

PIRRO: There's no question that the --

FORD JR: Let me just do this. Judge?

PIRRO: You looked at me. You looked at me. I thought -- well, we had to rush. Look, there's no question that these people, Dana, are also going to be suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome.

PERINO: Yes.

PIRRO: I mean, they have seen bodies, I heard them today talking about trying to cover their children's eyes when they pass by amputated bodies from bombs. And then you have to ask yourself, you know, the world is watching. I mean, their paranoia, you know, which is legitimate and their fear. And then what do you -- how do you decide what of your life you put in a backpack? I have five minutes. What do I put in my backpack? I mean, the whole thing is just frightening.

FORD JR: Primetime, what do you think as you look at this? We've not seen scenes like this as Americans this long period of time, a war going on, people leaving a country. How does this impact as a decision-maker in the country? How does our military look at this? Does it make them think differently about what we should be doing or not doing?

WATTERS: I don't know about our military, but Joe Biden, has he offered to take in Ukrainian refugees? I haven't heard him say that. I mean, he usually takes in refugees from all over the world, from Central America, Afghanistan, the Mideast. I was just shocked he hasn't said anything about that.

I mean, the last major refugee crisis that happened was from the Mideast to Europe. But this is going to be a little bit different because the Ukrainians, I think, are able to assimilate in a -- in a better way just because they're neighboring all these countries they're going to, you have a language similarity, religious similarity. So, there's that.

And you'd hope that these -- a lot of them are women and children, but you'd hope that they would add value to the countries they're going to. They both share a distaste for Russia with the countries they're going to Poland, Slovakia, you know, Romania. So, I guess, there is -- there is some good to come to this, hopefully.

FORD JR: Brian, the men are staying behind 18 to 60-year-olds to fight for their country and their land and their future. How do you see this?

KILMEADE: Well, I think it's pretty amazing. You go up here making sure your family cross the border, then you go back. I mean, that's the ultimate courage. Number two, is some people leave, it's getting dangerous, I'm going to get out. No, I'm being targeted. They're actually shooting at children.

When we make a mistake in battle, we have an investigation, we beat each other up, we put people in jail, we vilify, we talk about a responsibility. We tried to get Navy SEALs out of prison for something that's dicey. We put the -- we put that conversation on trial and then we debate the case.

They're actually aiming for the good people, for people that just happen to be going to school that day or go into their machine shop that night. So, they are really traumatized. Living middle class to upper-middle class lives in some cases, and now it's all in a suitcase.

FORD JR: Thank you. Ahead, getting bailed out by Beijing. China is stepping in to try and save Russia from these crushing sanctions.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KILMEADE: Hear about this? China praising the country's friendship with Russia as "rock solid" after refusing to issue sanctions and even asking Russia to wait on their invasion of Ukraine till after their Olympics ended. Yes, that's right. The Winter Olympics did end.

And now, Russian banks are turning toward using a Chinese payment rival after Visa and MasterCard, American Express joined a growing list of companies who suspended business operations with Russia. So, what -- how do you characterize, Dana Perino, the relationship with China now as opposed to before the invasion happened?

PERINO: Remember, you're either with us or you're against us? I think that that should apply here. I mean, China is trying to have it both ways. They're doing this with Russia to try to provide their citizens to have a ways to pay, which we should also probably talk about, but they're also sending humanitarian aid to Ukraine today. Like, gee, thanks.

KILMEADE: Wow. Jesse, where do you think China stands? We expected China to be the backstop? Are they truly backstopping Russia?

WATTERS: Yes, diplomatically they are, but financially, they can only do so much. They do $450 billion in trade with America. You know how much they do with Russia? 50 billion. So, they I have to make a decision.

I'm with you, Dana. You want to do business with America, you want to do business with Europe, the good guys, the guys with all the money, the guys that developed you into a semi-civilized society, or you want to do business with Russia, failing empire, who's a pariah, all they have is a few commodities? They have to choose.

I think Biden has to make them choose. Opportunity for Biden to really split that alliance a little bit here.

KILMEADE: How much is -- Harold, how much is China willing to pay for this relationship?

FORD JR: We'll see. First, we've got to witness effort. We win this effort here, and I think the way we're going about doing it by unplugging Russia from the world's financial --

KILMEADE: We meaning west or U.S.

FORD JR: The west and the U.S. I think it's -- I think you make -- raise the right question. The fact that we're able to keep our lines strong is relevant to this conversation. Look, if Russia -- I mean, China said that they and Russia have this strategic relationship with no boundaries, no limits. Well, it has some limits. They they're just not -- they're not doing all that they can be doing.

I'm not giving them credit. I'm saying we continue to plot a pressure we are on Russia and the situation with China will take care of itself from our side.

KILMEADE: Is it too painful for China to keep this relationship up with Russia? Could they be a pariah themselves, you think? I haven't heard the West really call out China?

PIRRO: Well, no. The West hasn't called out China. But I think the interesting part of this is that the more Russia is ostracized by the rest of the world, the more China is going to do what's right for its economic pocketbook. And in the end, it doesn't matter because Russia and China are going to get back together again because they hate the West.

This is just a temporary bump in the road where Russia and China -- you know, Russia -- China may spin off a little bit. They may have wanted to join Russia in making sure that they could collaborate on this because China wants to go after Taiwan. And I don't know if that's going to be happening now if the -- and we were talking about this during the break, if maybe the American government sends Taiwan some weapons or something that might protect it.

But I think that in the end, I think that Russia and China will always be aligned and it's a temporary break.

KILMEADE: But I think it's good news for Taiwan's existence that they're struggling so mindedly in the Ukraine. We'll see. Hopefully, we're on them big time. Meanwhile, straight ahead, brand new reaction from Presents Zelenskyy just in. And we have more breaking news from Ukraine. Don't move.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: In a new interview, President Zelenskyy is vowing to stay in Kyiv saying he will remain in the city as long as it takes to win the war. Let's get our quick final thoughts on that. Brian?

KILMEADE: President Zelenskyy is the only person on the planet that could get the E.U., NATO, Republicans, and Democrats together. He's so inspiring. He also motivates. What he said over the weekend, he's getting. I want planes, he's getting planes. I want more arms, he's getting more arms. He's not getting his no-fly zone, but he's getting a lot.

PERINO: He was also the one who said Visa and MasterCard, we need you to do this now. Six hours later, it was done. Jesse?

WATTERS: Yes, he's going to be jumping in a bunch of bunkers underground and Kyiv probably as long as it takes for him to stay alive. I hope he never leaves that capital because that would be a huge blow to the morale of the Ukrainian people.

FORD JR: We need a Nobel Prize for democracy and courage and we had to give it to him for the next few years.

PERINO: Why don't we just make our own instead of the Nobel Prize?

FORD JR: Make him an honorary American.

WATTERS: The Five Prize.

PERINO: The Five's Prize. All right, Judge Jeanine.

PIRRO: The fact that this guy can put together a speech with no mistakes, no errors, get a game plan --

KILMEADE: No notes.

PIRRO: -- and say we need this, this, and this -- and I mean, he's my hero. That's the end of it. He's the world hero. And we've got to make sure he lives.

PERINO: Great way to end.

KILMEADE: I thought Jesse was the hero.

PERINO: That is it for us. "SPECIAL REPORT" is up next.

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