'The Five' debate the Confederate flag controversy

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Gutfeld: Confederate flag flap distracts from real question

How do you stop evil?

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," June 23, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Greg Gutfeld, along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Eric Bolling and she rode to work on a cricket; it's Dana Perino -- "The Five."

OK. I'm still trying to figure out how removing a Confederate flag would have prevented the Charleston massacre. A flag didn't kill those people. A ghoul did. But we now must care about this issue, for the media is beating the drum. If you don't weigh in, especially Republicans, you're racist.

But as much as I hate the left's need for sewing division, I must admit that the flag is -- literally -- sewed division. People claim it means different things to different people, but it harkens back to the pro-slavery side of the war. And if it upsets the victims' families, that's enough for me.  And really, that's why the hideous ghoul waves the flag around. But we also know demonizing something adds to its appeal. That's also why the ghoul waved the flag around.

My solution is: If you hate the flag, why not make it yours? The first black designer to make the flag fashionable wins. And then we can focus on the real question: How do you stop evil? Because that's hard.

We know from his friends that the freak chose a church over a school because of security. So if you take him at his racist words, then take him at his calculated plan. He picked a place without guns. No flag reductions would have stopped this loser from murdering the defenseless.

So every black must stop thinking about guns the way white liberals do, as tools of the evil NRA. In the hands of fiends, guns will kill you. In your hands, they protect against such fiends. Security should not be a black and white thing. Those nine people weren't average souls, they were limited glorious editions. And limited editions deserve security, not symbolism.

So Juan, I want to go to you first. Does it matter if the solution isn't addressing the crime? That if the opportunity is here to take away a symbol that is upsetting to people, does it matter that it's almost disconnected? I mean, it's not gonna stop what happened in Charleston?

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: You know, I don't know that it's gonna stop it, but I will say there is a connection in my mind, anyway. The connection is that we can see Dylann Roof in those pictures with the symbol, the Confederate flag, by his side. Much as he had the flag of Rhodesia, and we both know what that symbolizes, which is white supremacy and white domination. And I think that if it fuels the kind of madness and hatred that led him then to his ghoulish behavior, as you aptly describe it Greg, then I think, you know what, we shouldn't be fuelling that kind of feelings in our society.

I read somewhere where someone said, you know, in Germany, they don't celebrate the swastika and say, oh, you know that's our forefathers fought brilliantly in that war. They say, you know, that's something that really is for the museums. That's something to be put away. It's not to be forgotten, but it's certainly not something that you put out there that would allow a new Nazi movement or a new segregationist movement or a Dylann Roof, to find some basis for taking those horrible -- their horrible action, their violent action.

GUTFELD: But Eric, could you compare this to something saying that there's music that leads to violence? I mean, is that argument similar or is this one different because there's a historical precedence here?

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Let's do it this way. The process is the states decide what they want to put on their -- what flag they want to fly above the State House or on the grounds of the State House. The process is working. Governor Haley said we want to take it down. Governor Scott standing right next to her the other -- I'm sorry, Senator Scott standing next to her, Senator Lindsey Graham in agreement. There you go. The system is working. Take the thing down. Everybody wants the thing taken down from the state level. I'll all for it.

My problem is the people who are weighing in, the people who feel the need to weigh in to kind of mark their territory saying, this is where I am on it. Hillary Clinton said, "I'm against it, take it down." She was against it. She said in 2007 when she ran for president as well. Yet, she was in the White House as first lady when Bill Clinton actually signed a bill in Arkansas that created the top star of the four stars in the Arkansas flag, that was a (inaudible) to the confederacy.

So where was she then? We'd like to hear about that. If you feel the need to weigh in, I don't think you really need to weigh. System is working. One quick market thing, so e-bay, Sears and Walmart pulled the flag from marketing. They're not selling the flag anymore. Amazon hasn't. The sale of Amazon stars and bars has gone up 5,000 percent. They're telling me right now, literally just now, in the last couple of minutes, in the last few minutes, Amazon just pulled the flags as well. So what's happening is that -- again, let the states decide. Let the free market decide. These companies are doing it on their own.

GUTFELD: Yeah. So Eric brings up the point about all of a sudden the demand is up. Doesn't demonizing something add to its allure?

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: I think, for awhile.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

PERINO: I think. But I do admire Governor Nikki Haley who was able to pretty much solve this long debate in about 24 hours. I mean, she led. She said this is what I recommend. I agree on, especially on the state level and so she's the governor. And other candidates gave her deference to take that lead. And I think that as a crisis manager in the past week, she has really risen to the occasion.

The other thing is, in the pro-life, pro-choice debate there's something called the Hyde Amendment. And the Hyde Amendment basically says because tax dollars are co-mingled and you have people who are pro-life and pro- choice, you will not allow taxpayer dollars to go towards the killing of a human being, if that's what you -- if that's if you're a pro-life person. And on this one I think that it makes sense to take it down from the government buildings because you do have people who have strong feelings that it is offensive. Those taxpayer funds are co-mingled. To me that makes absolute sense to take it off of the government.

GUTFELD: You can have it in your bedroom. You can it in your yard.

PERINO: Now all of a sudden it's in Mississippi, it might actually now go to Arkansas. And because of social media, you actually might see this decades-long debate solved within a couple months.

GUTFELD: Yeah. I know Kimberly, you are asking me, are we gonna have a Charles Krauthammer SOT. And you know what, I said, yes. This is what he had to say about this, earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: It's a good thing that it's being done. But the other fact is, this is a total irrelevance, this has nothing at all to do with what happened. Had the flag not existed or not been on the grounds of the capital, this massacre would have happened in any case, but it's the standard liberal impulse, something happened really bad. So there's got to be a problem and there has to be a solution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: So is it -- is this about preventing evil or just doing something that feels good because it's good to solve something? It doesn't matter.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Yeah, well, people have seized at the moment, right? To be able to do something, but it actually had, I agree with Charles. It has nothing to do with the actual incident itself. However, I understand the symbolism that is troubling deeply disturbing to people. So, you know this happen. Maybe there's something good that comes out of it because we have seen great leadership exercised like Dana mentioned by Nikki Haley, which I think she's saying there should be a female president -- Condoleezza Rice, not HRC. Just in case you're wondering.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, because I get confused.

GUTFELD: Very good subliminal advertising there.

GUILFOYLE: Did you like it? I've been practicing it all week.

GUTFELD: I'm impressed. Let's roll some tape of Whoopi, she had something to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WHOOPI GOLDBERG, THE VIEW SHOW CO-HOST: The only other argument you can make against having this flag be as spectacularly shown, as it is around the south is the Nazis. I mean, it would be like having the swastika flag...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In Germany it's illegal.

GOLDBERG: Flying on your next-door neighbor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: Do you see that as the same thing, swastika?

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I'm not Jewish, but I do know the history. And clearly, that was the symbol of the Third Reich, and part of their agenda was extermination of Jews. I don't know -- as a human being, I find that repulsive. And when I look at the flag, I got to tell you, you know, I was saying yesterday, it just troubles me because it suggests to me that there are people like you know, you think about 48 strong (inaudible) saying, oh, we're gonna have a States' Rights Party and the States' Right Party is going to stand for segregation.

Segregation now, you know go on, segregation forever all that. And -- so what does that mean? I wouldn't be sitting here with my friends, I tell you that. OK. I mean, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to get an education in this country. I mean, it's really. It speaks to my ability to be a human being in this society. So you got to imagine, Greg, it's pretty offensive to me. I told -- yesterday, I mentioned.

GUILFOYLE: Dukes of Hazard.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, Dukes of Hazard. That my kids whenever out there, no association with the flag, like, what the -- that's on the side of the car with the girl with the shorts. You know, that's.

GUTFELD: Yes, Daisy.

GUILFOYLE: Daisy.

WILLIAMS: Thank you, Daisy.

GUTFELD: Yeah, I only remember Daisy.

GUILFOYLE: Well, see me, the short is famous.

GUTFELD: Yes. And she wore panty hose with shorts, which was weird. But OK, so then you have this...

GUILFOYLE: You are really paying attention.

GUTFELD: But your --

GUILFOYLE: Bad.

GUTFELD: You are kind of focusing on what this conflict it is. There are people that believe the flag represents more than what -- the idea of slavery, that it actually is about protecting the state rights, the bravery of soldiers. But what if it's both? Then what do you do?

WILLIAMS: Well, but I would just say quickly, look at the fact that it was put up a hundred years after the Civil War.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: So it's not even people who are grieving the deaths of the soldiers. Its a hundred years after where people who are seeking to defy Brown v. Board of Education, taking part in the massive resistance movement against integration, social integration, political equality for blacks.

GUILFOYLE: Is the American flag next?

WILLIAMS: Oh, my God. Why -- I love the American flag.

GUILFOYLE: I know, but.

WILLIAMS: It symbolizes the country I love. Why that.

GUILFOYLE: People can also start to suggest that this was symbolizes war, oppression. I was having a.

WILLIAMS: Oh my, gosh.

GUILFOYLE: Thoughtful conversation the other night with Laura Ingraham (ph). She was saying to me, you know, at one point somebody will say they're offended by this. We see people disrespect the American flag. I was just thinking.

GUTFELD: Well, there are always gonna be people that are gonna be offended about something. This will never end.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

GUTFELD: But in this case, I mean, there are people that live in the south. They have to -- that this is on a state property. If it's in your house, nobody cares. But it's state property, right?

GUILFOYLE: Right.

GUTFELD: They.

GUILFOYLE: Go ahead.

BOLLING: Well, I was just gonna say is it not -- can we put to it rest now?

GUTFELD: Yeah.

BOLLING: The governor said we're taking it down.

GUTFELD: Yeah, yeah.

BOLLING: They're taking it down and the other states that may have this similar flag or parts of the flag in it, will address it as well. Arkansas and Mississippi, they said Mississippi is going to address it. It's brought up again in Mississippi and Arkansas may as well. So let them decide on their level. By the way, the African-American migration south hasn't been affected by the Confederate flag being down. It's just that is one thing. Isn't this the opportunity.

PERINO: It's the jobs.

BOLLING: To bring it up? Right, well.

PERINO: That's what.

BOLLING: Right.

PERINO: I mean, the jobs and opportunities is driving people to -- and that is actually the bigger piece. I think that there is frustration that the -- as Charles was saying.

GUILFOYLE: Oh my, God.

PERINO: The flag wasn't -- will not, taking down the flag would not have stopped it. But I do think -- if you think about the black flag of ISIS? You know, when they take over territory and they raise that flag? It means something to them, and it means something to us, too, right? It's meant to scare you, it's for intimidation. And we would want to take all those down if we could.

GUILFOYLE: We would.

GUTFELD: Yeah. I feel bad for.

GUILFOYLE: It symbolizes beheading Christians.

GUTFELD: Yeah. I feel bad for all those comedians now. There goes a punch line, if there's no more Confederate flag -- maybe.

Ahead, the GOP's only female presidential candidate is fighting to take back feminism from the left. Carly Fiorina -- there's a lot of vowels in that name.

GUILFOYLE: I am.

GUTFELD: Next. And later, are police closing in on the killers who escaped from a New York prison, breaking developments, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: All right. The only woman in the 2016 republican field has launched a campaign to redefine feminism. A term that she says has been co-opted by the left.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm tired of women who are conservative like me, being dismissed by others because we don't agree with them. And I think it's time to take that word back for all women, not just for those who believe in the litany of the left.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: Fiorina describes herself as a feminist, which she defines as a woman who's lived a life of her choice. She says the left thinks it means telling women how to think, act, and how to vote. Kimberly, did you like that this idea that she is wanting to broaden out feminism, so that we stop having such division?

GUILFOYLE: I like it a lot. My -- I identify, right? With her term, with her vision of what feminism really is and should be. It should be about individuality. It should be about self-determination, individual choice. Not issuing an edict or a mandate for all that shares your gender to follow. So I'm embracing this and I'm all in.

PERINO: Eric, I heard that at the college republican meeting, which she spoke to them twice. Once at CPAC and then she came back again for their annual convention. And that she was a rock star that both men and women, the young men and women that were there, particularly the women were like, ah, she is speaking for me.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah.

PERINO: Can other candidates -- maybe take a page out of her play book?

BOLLING: She is a very, very down to earth and real person. She -- when she first announced her candidacy she was making the rounds, I happened to bump into her and she was with a whole bunch of people. And she took my office, I said, just sit there, make phone calls if you need to. The sweetest, honest down to earth people so what -- person you will ever meet. What you see on TV and during the interviews is what she is down inside as well, when you meet her face-to-face. That's always a great judge. Scott Walker is the same way. When you talk to Scott Walker, you're talking to the same Scott Walker you're talking to when you see him on TV, and that's a great thing.

She also points out that the -- I believe that was her research that she said that the Fortune 500 I believe has 23 females?

PERINO: Correct.

BOLLING: CEOs and there are more men named John as CEOs in the Fortune 500, than females all together, and she said that needs to change. I would be the free market guy saying it needs to change organically not because of some sort of.

GUILFOYLE: Mandate.

BOLLING: You know mandate or affirmative action, tight thing that would push more CEO -- female CEOs to top it. And I think it is. I think people are at least business people are more in tune to make me money, make -- show a return for my shareholders versus you know.

PERINO: What gender you have.

BOLLING: What name and with -- male or female.

GUILFOYLE: Equality of opportunity (inaudible).

PERINO: Do you think that she that -- when she says things like that, it drives the left crazy?

GUTFELD: Well, using the name mandate is obviously sexist.

(LAUGHTER)

GUTFELD: Why does it always have to be man? You know, she said that this has been co-opted. Feminism has been co-opted by the left, and that is kind of dishonest because it was actually started by the left. Let's admit that feminism came from liberalism and it was very positive. But then it went dark. It went into a bad place. When feminism replaced biology with social construct, they started to say that everything about a human being was created by your environment or by your -- by environmental cues as opposed to innate traits. So that meant that anybody -- everybody at the same potential, and that meant -- if you denied that reality, you were condemned to fail. Like you didn't achieve what you could get because it was your fault. They denied traits that are applied across all cultures. And that's where feminism went wrong is it denied biology and makes them look foolish. But prior to that, what they did was very important. Make sense? Can I just prattle on?

PERINO: No, you. That was.

GUILFOYLE: You did prattle on.

PERINO: It was really good.

GUTFELD: Yeah. Because I think I lost my (inaudible).

PERINO: That because we only have three minutes, I want to go to our second topic and get Juan.

(LAUGHTER)

PERINO: On this, first. So tomorrow, Governor Bobby Jindal of Louisiana is expected to announce that he's going to run for president. So today, the Washington Post did a little piece on him, little feature piece. And this was the tweet. This is the line from the tweet from a political science professor at the university there in New Orleans or in Louisiana. And it said, "There's not much Indian left in Bobby Jindal."

GUILFOYLE: Fair enough (ph).

PERINO: OK. So this is, in a way, the left's attempt to make him look like he is less in touch with his Indian-American roots, but this is how he always talks to in his speeches. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOBBY JINDAL, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My parents love India. But they wanted to raise their children as Indians. They would have stayed in India. We used to proudly proclaim America was the great melting pot. But now, the politically correct say, oh, we're salad bowl. It is culturally arrogant to insist that our culture is somehow better than that of others. I think it's just common sense to say, we should insist, the people want to come here. They should want to be Americans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: But I think is a great sound bite, Juan. I think you probably agree. But this -- Pearson Cross, the political science professor at the University of Louisiana Lafayette is writing a book on the governor. And I -- maybe he wasn't trying to be disparaging, but I think the Washington Post pulled that.

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

PERINO: For a specific reason. Would they have ever said that about Barack Obama?

WILLIAMS: Well, I think they did say that, about that because there are people much like this political science professor who I think trunk all the time in the politics of identity. And so, if you aren't their kind of black person or you're not their kind of Indian-American and aren't paying sufficient homage to your Indian-American heritage, then you're somehow inauthentic and a phony. And you're playing to white America in a way that's intended to fool people or something. I just -- I find it offensive in the way I raise my kids, in the way I behave.

I think the ideal is to be an American. I think, you know, I don't think my mother had any questions about, you know my household. My mom spoke Spanish. But the idea was, Juan, you don't speak Spanish. You're gonna learn how not only to speak English, you're gonna write English. I mean, she understood pretty clearly what the deal was.

And by the way, I think that if we go back to Carly, Carly is something really interesting. She said you know, only 23 percent of American women identify with the idea of feminism. And feminism has been taken over by the left. And she thinks there's a broader structure of women -- American women, who know that there are needs to be more opportunity for women. And they, but they don't want to be called feminists.

PERINO: When looking at the vote, it's about 54 percent women -- amount of voters it would be there in 2016 for the picking. Did you have a thought on Jindal?

BOLLING: Can I just give another maybe interpretation of that quote? So I read that piece who actually goes -- it talks about Jindal's background in India. How he was raised in a family of very, very poor family. His sisters couldn't -- they had no education. They couldn't afford to go to school. Bobby was always the guy who had a book in his hand. And that line taken alone sounds like they're taking a shot at Jindal. If you take the piece in its entirety, it's almost like he pulled himself out of the poverty. He came to America, went to school.

PERINO: Assimilated.

BOLLING: Got an education. Assimilated.

PERINO: Yes.

BOLLING: And I'm not sure it is.

PERINO: Well, it's interesting. It might not be parsed from him. It's curious to me that the Washington Post chose that line.

BOLLING: That's true.

PERINO: To make a point.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: What was the line again?

PERINO: That there is much Indian left in Bobby Jindal.

GUTFELD: Well, maybe he just had Tandoori chicken. And he had just.

(LAUGHTER)

GUTFELD: By the way, cannot eat Tandoori chicken anymore because I'm getting old.

BOLLING: Not much Indian left in me.

GUTFELD: Not much Indian left in me, either.

WILLIAMS: You know, Greg...

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: Greg, you know what I think, you should be angry at though.

GUILFOYLE: Or (inaudible).

WILLIAMS: Is assimilation. You know fear on the college campus, when I give a speech about and talk about assimilation, they get so mad.

GUILFOYLE: Why is that?

WILLIAMS: They think assimilation is a bad thing. And I think assimilation is a great thing.

GUTFELD: But you know what.

GUILFOYLE: But there's -- that's a multiculturalism, and they think that it should, you know, they should have their own individual identity versus having --

WILLIAMS: Why?

GUTFELD: Of all the problems in the world, I'm just telling you that's where they're coming from.

GUTFELD: It put this thing like the best of every culture.

WILLIAMS: That's likely.

GUTFELD: America is like the greatest hits of the world.

WILLIAMS: Check it out.

PERINO: I agree. OK. We'll end on that note.

All right, next. The husband of the prison worker accused of helping two convict escapes gives his first TV interview, what Lyle Mitchell says his wife confessed to him about her involvement. Plus, breaking new developments on the manhunt, a live report is ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUILFOYLE: Well, there are breaking new developments on the hunt for those two escaped inmates, Richard Matt and David Sweat. An intense search is under way, now near Mountain View, New York. Let's bring in Fox's Rich Leventhal, live from nearby Owls Head with the very latest. Rick?

RICK LEVENTHAL, FOX NEWS SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: And Kimberly, we had a flurry of activity here earlier this afternoon. With what appeared to be more than a hundred officers converging on a wooded area along Route 27 in Mountain View, just about two or three miles from here. After another possible sighting of Matt and Sweat who have been on the run now for 18 days. We've made it to the edge of the search perimeter before state police pushed us back. We saw tactical vehicles, troopers armed with shotguns and automatic weapons and at least two helicopters hovering overhead. The search lasted for close to an hour. But eventually, they began clearing the scene, just another of the more than 2,000 leads that did not pan out. But at least one lead did prove legit.

That was on Saturday, when a man went to check on his hunting cabin nearby, saw a jar of peanut butter and a jug of water inside. Yelled out and someone bolted out the back door. Police converged on that cabin, reportedly found evidence including bloody socks, prison-issue underwear and fingerprints. And we've confirmed with multiple sources, there was a DNA match inside that cabin. Two of the two men who have been on the run, Richard Matt and David Sweat, police know they're here in this area. They know they were here at least three days ago and they are trying their best to flush them out, Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: All right, thanks. That's an important update because it shows DNA, forensics presence of both individuals are still traveling together.

All right, will prison worker Joyce Mitchell may have helped those two killers escape and now she's behind bars. Where are they? Today, her husband Lyle revealed about how he learned about his wife's possible involvement and the threat to his own life in a new interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LYLE MITCHELL, HUSBAND OF PRISON WORKER JOYCE MITCHELL: And that's (inaudible). Mr. Mitchell, your wife has more involved than what she's letting on. What? And that's when she said that she bought hacksaw blades, the Philips and a chisel. Oh my, God.

MATT LAUER, CO-HOST, NBC'S "THE TODAY SHOW": When did you finally ask her point blank, face-to-face?

MITCHELL: That night on the way home. She said this. I hold my head, and I was scared. She said, "I've got something else to tell you."

I said, "What's that?"

She said, "Their plan was they wanted to kill you."

I said, "What?"

She said she would have never gone through with it. That's what she told me. That she really loved me and she was in too deep.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: I mean, I don't know, there are no words. I mean, marital counselling after....

GUTFELD: I think it's beyond that, Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: Is it? I don't know. I want to be optimistic.

GUTFELD: There's no helping this marriage. I don't know.

GUILFOYLE: He seems like he doesn't want to leave.

GUTFELD: What happened to the ball and chain? Remember...

GUILFOYLE: She's wearing it.

GUTFELD: No in the 1950s, everybody had a -- in the movies the guy was always running with a ball and chain. That, like, stopped...

PERINO: The prisoner?

GUTFELD: Yes, the prisoner.

PERINO: I thought you meant the wife.

GUTFELD: No, I'm talking about the prisoners. And then, like, somehow when the movies became in color, there were no more ball and chains. Only in black-and-white movies.

GUILFOYLE: It's so sad. This poor guy, he seems so nice. He is a complete (UNINTELLIGIBLE). This is what happens. Like, the good guys get taken.

PERINO: It goes to the power of manipulation by a sociopath. Right? So something -- we'll find out eventually what her story really is. But obviously, those two criminals were able to manipulate her, either through fear or other means.

GUTFELD: Love.

PERINO: Well, we don't know.

GUTFELD: Love, the ultimate manipulator.

PERINO: She's denying that to him. She denied that to him.

WILLIAMS: Yes. She said that she had some affection for Matt but no sex.

GUTFELD: Yes.

WILLIAMS: Do you believe that?

BOLLING: It's happened.

GUILFOYLE: It's a little different than "Days of Our Lives" that I used to watch. But yes. Bolling, what do you make of it?

BOLLING: But can we just point out how stupid these two criminals are? I mean, do you know how much easier it is to recognize two guys that look familiar from the pictures you're seeing versus separately, one guy? That guy could be anyone. And then the other thing is...

GUTFELD: I love the paintings.

BOLLING: Right.

GUILFOYLE: Artist renderings.

BOLLING: K.G....

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

BOLLING: ... right now they're holding her for helping them break out of jail. If someone dies in this process, she's going to be an accessory to murder, right?

GUILFOYLE: Well, yes, then it could be felony murder. It all depends. It gets very complicated, especially then if they, like, go across state lines, the whole deal.

But you have to ask your question. I think it's very interesting. At a certain point does that attenuate, where it's become so far from the incident itself, would she still be legally liable?

BOLLING: Not really. Because...

GUILFOYLE: I would probably charge her. But a defense attorney would probably say, "Oh, that's like two weeks later. It's been 18 days. How can you hold her responsible?"

These are the questions that we struggle with on "The Five." How about you? Next...

GUTFELD: Wait.

GUILFOYLE: We're done. The Deflategate drama goes on as Tom Brady goes before the NFL's commissioner to appeal his four-game suspension. Should Roger Goodell deflate his punishment? When "The Five" returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLLING: Welcome back. Time for...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC)

GRAPHIC: Fastest 7

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: ... the "Fastest Seven Minutes on Television." Three absorbing stories, seven agile minutes, one amiable host.

First up, Tom Brady showed up at NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell's office today to appeal his four-game suspension for his role in deflating footballs. Two issues the commish has to evaluate. Does the Wells Report implicate Brady or just imply he had a hand in deflating the balls? And two, is a four-game suspension for Brady, $1 million fine and a fourth and first-round draft pick penalty to the Patriots too severe?

Brady weighed in with Jim Gray last month.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM BRADY, QUARTERBACK, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS: Life so much is about ups and downs, and certainly, I accept my role and responsibility as a public figure.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're getting pummeled, Tom. Maybe not here tonight but across the country. Do you care?

BRADY: I certainly care what the people that are close to me think and what they care about. I think also as a public figure you learn that there's not everyone is going to like you, either. So good, bad, indifferent, there's a lot of people that don't like Tom Brady. And I'm OK with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: OK. Greg, your thoughts?

GUTFELD: Well, I was with him until he said -- he started talking in the third person. Greg Gutfeld hates that.

PERINO: That bugs you.

GUTFELD: Greg Gutfeld, when he hears that, he goes, "Greg Gutfeld's had enough."

By the way, he's so good-looking, he can have a bad haircut.

BOLLING: True. K.G.

GUILFOYLE: Everybody be yourself. Just say what you think.

BOLLING: You may not like Brady.

GUILFOYLE: Got a crush.

BOLLING: Your thoughts on him appealing his...

GUILFOYLE: I like him. I don't like his hair in that particular clip. And then I also don't like to the use, like, kind of the talking about himself in third person. That's a little weird.

I think he really missed an opportunity to address the public at that time. And now this continues to define him. I think it haunted him a little bit when they went ahead and issued the suspension.

BOLLING: Suspension and fine, draft picks seems a little harsh?

PERINO: I -- obviously, I'm not the sports expert at the table.

GUTFELD: What?

PERINO: I do -- I did meet a guy last night who is a season ticket holder to the Patriots. And I asked him, "So what do you think? Tomorrow is the appeal."

And he said, "Look, when there's that much money at stake, there's probably going to be some cheating."

So maybe it is that people are just, like, factoring it in, that there's going to be some cheating. And they're becoming more accepting of it.

BOLLING: Juan, does it matter that the deflated footballs didn't matter? Because in the second half, when they realized it, they came with the proper inflation; and he performed even better. Does that matter?

WILLIAMS: No. Because what it is, is you know, you're violating the rules of the game. So...

GUILFOYLE: Yes. Like going and robbing the bank; and somebody beat you to it and there's no cash? You still went to do it.

BOLLING: You don't like the rule, change the rule; but play by the rules.

WILLIAMS: Good metaphor.

GUILFOYLE: Did you like that?

WILLIAMS: Yes. That was a good one.

BOLLING: Can I hold you off for one second?

WILLIAMS: Certainly.

BOLLING: Next up, you know him as a soft-spoken rap mogul and very successful businessman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: Turns out the man who comes off cool and chill has quite the temper. Diddy's son Justin is a defensive back for the UCLA football Bruins. And according to TMZ, Diddy got into an altercation with the strength coach in the UCLA strength room. He tossed a kettle bell, prompting assault charges. But there are also rumors Combs levied terror threats at the coach.

UCLA students reacted thusly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm really shocked by it, actually. I wouldn't think P. Diddy would, since he is high-profile and famous, I wouldn't think he'd be getting into altercations like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: OK, Juan, what is Diddy doing in the UCLA locker room?

WILLIAMS: I don't know. I guess grabbing his kettle bells there. It looks like that was that rap video.

But I mean, it seems to me that he's way over the line. He's an arrogant guy who thinks that everybody in the world should jump for him and his son. Because apparently the strength coach was criticizing the kid's routine, and he didn't like it.

I don't understand why he was even there. I mean, it's just not his workplace. I mean, he might be a visitor once in a while. But you don't go in the locker room like that.

GUILFOYLE: You have no sympathy for the man.

WILLIAMS: Apparently don't.

GUILFOYLE: Ever since he lost J. Lo and he changed his name from Puff Daddy...

WILLIAMS: Well, I have sympathy for that.

GUILFOYLE: ... it's not gone well.

PERINO: I didn't even know that.

BOLLING: Did you think they added an assault charge and a terror threat?

PERINO: That caught my attention. What does that mean? He was leveling terrorist threats?

GUILFOYLE: It means he threatened to take somebody's life.

PERINO: Now is everything going to be terrorism if you threaten somebody?

WILLIAMS: No, no, no, that's...

PERINO: So what is -- I would like to know more about the specific terrorist threat.

WILLIAMS: Well, somebody hits you in the head with a kettle bell.

PERINO: So I don't ever, you know, commit one.

GUILFOYLE: It's penal code Section 422 in California. And what it means, you make a specific threat to take somebody's life that is to be taken seriously. You've got the intent. You have the means and ability to carry it out, to be a felony. And so it's very hard to prove, and I can't believe they charged him with that.

BOLLING: "And I'll blow your butt up"?

Diddy claimed it was self-defense.

GUTFELD: Diddy or didn't he? (UNINTELLIGIBLE) right back.

Kettle bells are the worst thing that has ever happened in gyms. I'll be on a machine at Equinox. Some jerk will stand in front of me with a kettle bell and do this like this. And these things are like -- look at those things. They're like from some horrible torture chamber. And they're doing this in front of your face. And you go, "Can you stop doing it?"

And they go, "I won't let go of it."

GUTFELD: You go, "But if you do, I die, you jerk."

BOLLING: All right. Move on to this one. Finally, by now, you've seen the picture the Associated Press tweeted over the weekend with the gun pointed directly at Senator Ted Cruz's head. The picture immediately drew outrage.

The A.P. responded with this statement, quote, "The images were not intended to place Senator Cruz in a negative light." Anne Coulter wasn't buying that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: If that had been Hillary Clinton? If that had been President Obama? The left would have been losing their mind over this.

ANNE COULTER, AUTHOR: Oh, yes.

KELLY: And A.P., would they have done...

COULTER: That's so outrageous. Don't insult our intelligence by saying, "Oh, we didn't even notice. It was a mistake."

Yes. Who would have seen something like that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: Now, Dana, this was -- these things are produced, right?

PERINO: Well, you make -- as a photo editor you're making snap decisions right away to send photos out. You still own that responsibility.

To me it's pretty obvious what they were trying to do. This is the same media -- I'm not saying it's A.P. but the same media who tried to capture President Obama so it looks like he has a halo around him. Do you remember those photographs? There is a bias in the media, and it often does extend to pictures and headlines and captions.

WILLIAMS: Gregory.

GUTFELD: If you look at this picture -- I don't know if you can show the close up. It's offensive. How dare they point Ted Cruz's head at that poor gun.

BOLLING: That's true. Self-defense.

GUTFELD: It is. All you had to do is the mirror test. What if it had been a favorite liberal politician? It would not pass. It's amazing how blind liberals are that they would condemn crosshair photos but not this as inciteful to violence.

BOLLING: K.G., every low-level producer all the way up the ladder knows if you're going to put gun video on top of -- next to a host, the guns are shooting away from the host.

GUILFOYLE: Yes. This is in very bad taste. Poor judgment. I give them "F" minus.

WILLIAMS: Let me ask you something. Wasn't he speaking at a gun event? Who put the pictures on the wall?

GUILFOYLE: It's inappropriate, Juan.

WILLIAMS: Look, I don't like the picture, but I'm saying...

PERINO: Too bad he wasn't shorter.

GUILFOYLE: It would be in his mouth?

PERINO: Well, if he was shorter it would have been over his head.

BOLLING: Kind of like that comment.

GUILFOYLE: Like that comment.

BOLLING: A CNN host holds up a giant "N" word sign on live TV. Our thoughts on that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS: President Obama surprised a lot of people when he used the full "N" word in an interview that aired yesterday. In an attempt to capitalize on the controversy, CNN pulled this disgraceful stunt that we're partially censoring.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is what America is talking about right now. Does this offend you? It's the Confederate flag. Is it a symbol of southern pride or a symbol of hate?

And then, what about this? Does this offend you? This word? President Obama said it out loud in an interview. And a lot of people are shocked.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: You know, Eric, I don't even know where to begin. You know how I feel about the "N" word. I think the president made a huge mistake by allowing the whole conversation to shift from conversations about, you know, comity and working together to now his use of the "N" word.

But -- and CNN, it seems to me, made a gratuitous use of this word to provoke people, to attract ratings. It seems to me to be just so base.

BOLLING: Yes. So that's what the common theme was all afternoon was, "Did you see what Don Lemon did? He did that just to get ratings." Well, yes, probably. But isn't that what he's -- look, I know him personally. He's a friend of mine, close friend of mine. He's a good guy. He's smart. He's funny. He's provocative, but that's what he's paid to do. To provoke conversation.

WILLIAMS: Well, he said -- he said this. There's a difference between using the word to insult somebody and using it to start a journalistic conversation.

BOLLING: I look at that and I go, I'm not sure he had an opinion there. I think he said, "Does this offend you? And if it does, let's have this discussion. Let's have this conversation." As opposed to some other uses of it.

By the way, he used it same thing a couple of years ago, too, and no one thought -- no one said anything about it.

WILLIAMS: I would have said -- I would have said something about it at any time. But I'm just saying, to me, Kimberly...

GUILFOYLE: I don't like it.

WILLIAMS: ... it looked to me like a cheap stunt.

GUILFOYLE: I don't -- I'm not going to get inside his head. I've got to spend time in my own. Exhausting. But I think that I don't like to see that. I don't want it out there. I don't -- I don't know that it figured the dialogue. Just like I didn't like the president uttering it. I don't want to see it.

WILLIAMS: Well, Dana, do you think that it had journalistic purpose? That it can be justified?

PERINO: Well, look, my parents -- I don't think I've actually ever said that word out loud in full.

GUTFELD: I have this recording, Dana.

PERINO: I'm sure you have lots of things on me.

I'm curious, though, like for Don Lemon. Does that -- if he was saying that he was offended or maybe he was just being provocative. But if it does offend him, does that extend then to rap music, as you've brought up on the show before?

WILLIAMS: I find -- and again the rappers say, "We're claiming the power of the word."

GUILFOYLE: You're very consistent on this issue.

WILLIAMS: Well, good, because it's from the heart. I'm not playing on this. I think that it's wrong.

GUTFELD: Well, I think the real story is how little most people cared about when Obama said it. It was the media that got the vapors. Because you know, it's like whenever he does something, it's "Oh, my God! Oh, my God!" Everybody is screaming.

But everybody else was kind of like, "Nah, nah. What's on TV?"

GUILFOYLE: I'm with Bolling. I like him personally.

BOLLING: But again, if -- if we make the word out to be so big and so provocative and so insulting, it will be. I'm telling you. You walk through any high school. You hear groups of kids, white, brown and black. They're dropping the word left and right. They don't -- and they're not racist, Juan.

WILLIAMS: No. You know what they are? Let me just say it. They're stupid and ahistorical. And us -- for us as adults and Don Lemon to somehow sanction it, I think makes us culpable and wrong.

Anyway "One More Thing" up next. You can see we have a disagreement here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUTFELD: Time for "One More Thing." Let's go to this, huh?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: Greg's Travel Tips.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: All right, you know when you're leaving for a flight, always check to make sure all the passengers are securely buckled in. Take -- let's go to the tape here.

This is in someplace, French Guinea. I don't know how you pronounce it.

GUILFOYLE: Guinea.

GUTFELD: Anyway, look who just popped in over there. That is not a flight attendant but a hairy little cat that had somehow climbed onto the plane. And they're not aware of it until the guy all of a sudden looks and he kind of freaks out. Oh, my goodness, he sees the cat up there. Yes, very adorable, adorable cat until it was sucked into the engine.

GUILFOYLE: That's terrible.

GUTFELD: I'm kidding. The cat is fine.

PERINO: Does he not tell her? Like, why doesn't she look up?

GUTFELD: I guess they were in shock. Anyway, they're all living together at a bed and breakfast in Vermont.

GUTFELD: No, but she doesn't get the cat and, like, hold the cat?

GUTFELD: The cat's now the mascot. I'm done -- Dana.

PERINO: OK. A standing-room-only crowd today on Capitol Hill. Elise Stefanik, she's a congressman from upstate New York. She's the youngest female member ever elected to Congress, and she's chairing something called the Millennial Task Force, because she is a millennial. And she says she's going to focus on this. Listen to her earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. STEFANIK, CHAIR, MILLENNIAL TASK FORCE: I'm a millennial myself. I am eager to hear the ways that we as lawmakers can better reach our generation.

I believe that millennials have a unique perspective that can help craft a vision for our future. I also believe millennials are an optimistic generation, and they can teach us once more to be a leading voice in the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: So millennials are now the largest group of workers in America.

GUTFELD: Juan.

WILLIAMS: More good news about young people. Twenty-six-year-old NFL star Rob Gronkowski, turns out he has not spent one cent of more than $16 million he's made so far in his NFL career. He hasn't spent the signing bonus. He hasn't spent the salary. He lives off of his endorsements. He's got endorsements with Body Armour SuperDrink and with Dunkin Donuts. And that's the money he spends. So he has -- he said no jewelry, no fancy cars, no big tattoos. He's just living.

I can't think of -- this is like a financial model for everybody in the country. Again, only 26 years old. Go, Gronk.

GUTFELD: All right. Eric.

PERINO: ... a tattoo.

BOLLING: By the way, have you seen this guy party? He parties like a rock star.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BOLLING: Gronk, you're going to read about it. He's going to be absolutely broke in about 10 years.

GUILFOYLE: You love him.

BOLLING: He's crazy.

Anyway, OK, so Sunday, premiere -- Season 2 premiere of "True Detective." I missed it. I got through halfway through the first season and dropped it because I couldn't stay with it. It turns out the second half was amazing.

GUTFELD: It was a bad first episode.

BOLLING: I -- can you do me a favor? Everyone let me know if it's worthwhile. I'll pick up "True Detective" again. New cast, Colin Farrell and Vince Vaughn.

GUILFOYLE: I mean, that's got to be good.

BOLLING: I would think so.

GUILFOYLE: No? With the cast?

GUTFELD: No, it was -- it felt like "Law & Order" doing James Elroy.

BOLLING: Remember first season? It started really slow, too.

GUILFOYLE: K.G., K.G., K.G.! Go, go, go!

GUTFELD: All right.

GUILFOYLE: I love soccer. Women playing soccer, even better. U.S. versus China, baby, in Canada. Guess who's carrying the game? FOX Sports One. Was that good, Sean?

Very exciting. So that's going to be played Friday, June 26.

And we beat Colombia last night. Yoo-hoo!

BOLLING: Why does Hannity care if that was good?

GUILFOYLE: What?

BOLLING: Sean.

GUILFOYLE: That was Sean O'Rourke, who had produced me.

GUTFELD: All right. Set your DVRs so you never miss an episode of "The Five." That's it for us. Something called "Special Report" is up next.

GUILFOYLE: A real show.

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