Sen. Graham on McCain's legacy, Kavanaugh hearings
Republican member of the Senate Judiciary Committee Lindsey Graham pays tribute to his friend and colleague Sen. John McCain and looks ahead to the confirmation hearings for Brett Kavanaugh, President Trump's pick to replace Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy.
This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," September 2, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
CHRIS WALLACE, HOST: I'm Chris Wallace.
The president's Supreme Court nominee heads for a grilling on Capitol Hill as the nation says goodbye to a hero.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT: He was honorable, always recognizing that his opponents were still patriots and human beings.
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT: What better way to give a last laugh than to make George and I say nice things about him to a national audience?
WALLACE: We remember the life and legacy of John McCain as the nation bids him a final farewell.
Then, confirmation hearings this week for Judge Brett Kavanaugh. We'll discuss his credentials and how Democrats plan to go after him with two members of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Republican Lindsey Graham and Democrat Dick Durbin.
Plus, trade talks with candidates take a tense turn.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I think Canada very much wants to make a deal and I think it's going to be obviously very good for Canada if they do and I think it's probably not going to be good at all if they don't.
WALLACE: On this labor day weekend, we'll discuss what a new NAFTA means for America's workers with the head of the country's largest group of units, AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka, only on "Fox News Sunday".
Then --
TRUMP: Google and Twitter and Facebook, they are really treading on very, very troubled territory.
WALLACE: We'll ask our panel about White House talk of regulating Google to what it claims is political bias in its search service.
And our power player of the week, country music legend Dolly Parton on giving books to millions of children.
DOLLY PARTON, COUNTRY MUSIC LEGEND: There are many things that I do. This is the one that's nearest and dearest to my heart.
WALLACE: All, right now, on "Fox News Sunday".
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: And hello again from Fox News in Washington.
The big story this week is confirmation hearings for Judge Brett Kavanaugh, President Trump's Supreme Court nominee who could shift the balance of power on the court for a generation. Kavanaugh faces days of tough questioning from a Senate Judiciary Committee. In a moment, we'll speak with two leading members of that panel.
But first, the nation’s long goodbye to Senator John McCain. McCain will be laid to rest today in a private ceremony at the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis, which meant so much to him.
Fox News correspondent Peter Doocy reports on a very public farewell yesterday in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER DOOCY, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Lawmakers, loved ones and diplomats gathered Saturday for a final goodbye to Senator John McCain.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The world will be lonelier without John McCain.
DOOCY: One of McCain's best friends, former Senator Joe Lieberman, told mourners about the time McCain asked him to join the GOP ticket even though he was a registered Democrat.
JOHN LIEBERMAN, FORMER SENATOR: John's response was direct and really ennobling. That's the point, Joe, he said with a certain impatience. You are a Democrat, I'm a Republican. We could give our country the bipartisan leadership it needs for a change.
DOOCY: McCain's former political rivals spoke on his behalf too.
BUSH: In recent years, we sometimes talk about that intense period like football players remembering a big game. In the process, rivalry melted away.
OBAMA: So much of our politics, our public life, our public discourse can seem small and mean and petty. John called on us to be bigger than that.
DOOCY: McCain's daughter Meghan broke from her tear-filled tribute to more sharply criticize the current president who wasn't invited.
MEGHAN MCCAIN, DAUGHTER OF SEN. MCCAIN: America has no need to be made great again because America was always great.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: And joining me now here in Washington, John McCain's good friend, Senator Lindsey Graham.
Welcome again to "Fox News Sunday."
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, R-S.C., SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Thank you for having me.
WALLACE: You are speaking today at the private ceremony at the U.S. naval academy. Your tribute, first of all, how are you doing, and secondly, what are you going to say?
GRAHAM: Well, I'm doing OK. These things help. Thank you to everybody who has called and asked me how I'm doing. Cindy and everyone else around the family has helped me, as much I helped them, probably more so.
I'm going to say that nobody loved a soldier more than John McCain, that I bear witness to his commitment to have their back, travel where they go, never let them be forgotten. The public may be tired of this war called the war on terrorism, but John McCain never was. And he had their back and he gave them what they need to win a fight we can't afford to lose. And he was willing to lose a political race, but not a war. So, I'm going to talk about all my travels with the troops and how much they love John McCain.
WALLACE: I have to ask you about the passionate, heartfelt but sometimes angry tribute by Meghan McCain who took some pretty clear shots at President Trump. Here's a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGHAN MCCAIN: We gather here to mourn the passing of American greatness. The real thing, not cheap rhetoric from men who will never come near the sacrifice he gave so willingly, nor the opportunistic appropriation of those who live lives of comfort and privilege while he suffered and served.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Was that appropriate? Was it fair?
GRAHAM: If you say something bad about Meghan's father, you will know it, she didn't like it. So, it's OK, she is grieving.
All I can say is there's a lesson to be learned this week about John McCain. Number one, Americans appreciate military service. If we've learned nothing this week you know the fact that John served our country in extraordinary circumstances. It was appreciated by everybody.
What else do we know? If you work hard and do your homework and know what you're talking about, people will listen to you. That if you pick big causes bigger than yourself, you'll be remembered.
He tried to drain the swamp before it was cool, that you can fight hard and still be respected. If you forgive, people appreciate it, and if you admit to mistakes, you look good as a stronger man. That's the formula, John McCain. This was a civics lesson for anybody who wanted to listen. Why do remember this man, because of the way he conducted his public life.
WALLACE: Do you think there's a lesson there for President Trump?
GRAHAM: There's a lesson here for everybody, including President Trump. Everybody makes mistakes. Those who admit it are seen by the public as bigger, not smaller. Know what you're talking about, fight hard, forgive, and have passion, strength and kindness are not mutually exclusive.
WALLACE: Let's turn to your day job and this week, you're going to be spending a lot of time as a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee and confirmation hearings for Judge Brett Kavanaugh --
GRAHAM: Yes.
WALLACE: -- to be confirmed to the Supreme Court.
First of all, does he have the votes to win confirmation of the court?
GRAHAM: If he does well at the hearing he will get, my belief is 55 or higher. If he does well enough, I'm sure he will do well.
WALLACE: When you say 55, you've got to have 51 Republicans, with the appointment of McCain's replacement. So, you are saying as many as four Democrats?
GRAHAM: Well, that's 55. Last time I checked --
WALLACE: So, that's what you think.
GRAHAM: Yes. I'm not good at math, but yes, I think there are a handful of Democrats will vote for Judge Kavanaugh if he does well and maybe even more. A lot of people should vote for Judge Kavanaugh. If you are looking to a Republican president to pick a qualified conservative, he would be on the top of anyone's list including not just Donald Trump.
He's the one person I think every Republican president would see is the most qualified of their generation.
WALLACE: Democrats say that the confirmation should be delayed until we know whether or not there's going to be either a criminal prosecution of President Trump or impeachment proceedings against President Trump.
Here is Senator Dick Durbin, who was going to be on the program next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. DICK DURBIN, D-ILL, SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: We should be withholding this decision on the Supreme Court nominee until the air is cleared and we know exactly where we stand when it comes to this president and (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Given that his former lawyer, Michael Cohen, says that candidate Trump in 2016 directed him to commit a crime, does the senator have a point?
GRAHAM: Well, it wasn't the point he had when Clinton was under investigation, we approved Justice Breyer. So, my Democratic friends did not have this view when Clinton was president.
WALLACE: We should point, I'm going to bring it up with Senator Durbin. 1994, Clinton is under investigation by the independent counsel in Whitewater and he was nominated.
GRAHAM: I think --
WALLACE: Stephen Breyer was confirmed to the court.
GRAHAM: Senator Grassley has been very fair. More documents than the person ever nominated to the Supreme Court. We're going to have a hearing and there's no drama in this hearing. The only drama is those running for president, how will they handle this hearing on the Democratic side? You know, we're going to get this good man confirmed.
WALLACE: Let me ask you, though, about this question of criminal liability. I want to look at some Kavanaugh's statements on that issue. Let's put them up. In 1999, Kavanaugh said the Nixon ruling, that President Nixon had to turn over all of the White House Watergate tapes may have been, quote, wrongly decided. In 2009, Kavanaugh wrote: criminal investigations take the president's focus away from his or her responsibilities to the people.
Is there a legitimate concern that Justice Kavanaugh, if you were faced with a case on the Supreme Court, would side with the president against either Congress or the court?
GRAHAM: Well, what I think you'll find is somebody that has had 308 decisions. So, you can get a pretty good idea of what he thinks based on his time on the court of appeals but the bottom line here is that most people are unsure as to whether or not a president can be indicted, a sitting president.
Impeachment is a process to remove a president, their criminal liability aspects are very much in debate. I think he's going to be mainstream in his thinking. He's going to look at both sides of the issue and decide appropriately.
WALLACE: One issue that pro-choice senators of both sides have pressed Kavanaugh on in their meetings with him on Capitol Hill is abortion. And Kavanaugh reportedly told them that Roe v. Wade is, quote, "settled law". Is that a firm commitment in your regard, in your view, to not overturn Roe? And if it is a firm commitment, how can you as a pro-life senator support him?
GRAHAM: I wouldn't vote for anybody that says that every decision the Supreme Court cannot be revisited. They revisit through a process. There's a process of overturning long precedent. There's a four-part test you have to apply.
From my point of view, what he will do is when that case comes, if it ever does, you just don't wake up one day and say, hey, I'd like to overturn Roe v. Wade. If there's a conflict that makes it to the Supreme Court, he will apply the test of precedent to that decision, Roe v. Wade, and every other precedent.
WALLACE: But to make it clear, you're saying you don't view his statement, for instance, to Senator Collins, a pro-choice Republican, that it settled law means that therefore it can't be re-examined and conceivably overturn?
GRAHAM: He would be disqualified, in my opinion, if you would not listen to both sides of the story and decide accordingly. This idea that Roe v. Wade is going to be challenged at state level, there are all kinds of laws out there. Some may work their way up to Supreme Court. He will give great deference I'm sure to Roe v. Wade. But it can be overturned like every other decision but that will be up to the facts on the record.
WALLACE: Senator Graham, thank you, thanks for your time on the tough weekend. Our deepest sympathies in a loss of a dear friend, sir.
GRAHAM: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Joining me now from Illinois, another member of the committee that will be questioning Judge Kavanaugh, Dick Durbin, the Senate's number two Democrat.
Senator, Democrats have tried a variety of efforts to upend and derail the confirmation of Judge Kavanaugh. I want to put some of them up.
The argument that there is a midterm election. The argument that President Trump is under investigation. If you want to see millions of pages of documents from when he was staff secretary for President George W. Bush, and the White House has no invoked executive privilege to withhold 100,000 pages from when he worked for the White House counsel.
I think it's fair to say that none of that has worked and the question is, why is it the Democrats have so far been unable to gain any traction against Judge Kavanaugh, and in the public debate, you don't seem to have laid a glove on him?
DURBIN: Let me say at the outset before we get into that and I will address it -- I joined with Lindsey Graham, every word he said John McCain John McCain. I respect John McCain so much and yesterday was a great display of the respect so many people across this country had for this great American. I was lucky enough to be with Lindsey and John involved in some very important negotiations for more than a year on comprehensive immigration reform. So I back up every word.
So let me start with Brett Kavanaugh in this way. He is the most unpopular Supreme Court nominee in the last 40 years. How did he reach that point so quickly? Well, I think there were a number of reasons for it.
You look at first and foremost is the fact that this president said I'm not going to put a man on the Supreme Court unless he is going to overturn Roe versus Wade and the Affordable Care Act. The president is never at a loss for words and he was very explicit in terms of what he wanted in a Supreme Court nominee. Those positions may be popular with his Republican base. They're not popular with the American people.
WALLACE: Wait, wait --
GRAHAM: An issue that you have raised --
WALLACE: Wait. I mean, he said he was going to appoint pro-life judges. He never said that he asked him or on a litmus test about that. And also, I have to say, I'm a little surprised that you are saying he's the most unpopular. When did we nominate and confirm Supreme Court justices based on public opinion polls?
DURBIN: Well, we shouldn't be. But you started off with the premise you've never laid a glove on him. The fact of the matter is the American people have gone through this nomination and come to the conclusion that he's not the right person for the job.
Let me go a little bit further here. He comes before us at a time when people are concerned about whether this president or any president is above the law. Think about his role, Kavanaugh's role, when it came to Judge Ken Starr going after President Clinton. He was the aggressive prosecutor in that respect and a few years later after working in the Bush White House said that completely reversed my position. A president should not be subject to the subject of prosecution while he's in office.
WALLACE: Can I -- can I let me just ask you about that because as Lindsey Graham brought up, and I was going to ask you anyway, in 1994, Bill Clinton was under investigation by an independent counsel on Whitewater and he nominated and the Senate confirmed Stephen Breyer and that was also in a midterm election year. That relate directly contradicts two of the arguments that you're making against Kavanaugh.
DURBIN: Let me just say that I was not a member of the Senate when Justice Breyer came before that body, but it will tell you at the time the investigation was underway, there was no suspicion at that moment that Clinton was going to brush it aside and say, you have no authority to even question me. It went forward. He was subpoenaed, he was deposed, he was tried in the House -- and I should say indicted under the impeachment clause and tried in the Senate. I was at the Senate at the time.
And now, we have a different situation completely. There is a serious question as to whether this president, given the opportunity, will end the Mueller investigation, something which most Republicans and the overwhelming majority of Americans say would be a serious mistake and we ask, of course, Judge Kavanaugh, what do you think, and he says it's hands off when it comes to a president during his term in office.
I think that's a mistake and it's one of the major reasons people had misgivings about his nomination.
WALLACE: Let's look at some specific issues. As I pointed out, Kavanaugh has told some pro-choice senators that he views Roe as settled law, he was asked about Obamacare, there's a Texas case that would try to take it all down because of the fact that the individual mandate has been repealed. He said that he was very skeptical of that.
Obviously, these aren't confirmed commitments. You wouldn't expect that from any judge.
Isn't it the real problem that this is a conservative judge, Donald Trump went to the country and promised to nominate conservative judges, originalists who would -- who would interpret the Constitution as written, it hasn't healed well within the mainstream, yes conservative, but within the judicial mainstream?
DURBIN: Well, you overlook one of the most important elements of his nomination, and that is the fact that there has been more concealment of documents concerning his public service and his position on issues than ever in the history of the United States.
WALLACE: He's given you half a million documents, sir.
(CROSSTALK)
DURBIN: Let me just make my point here, Chris. The assertion of executive privilege by the White House to take 100,000 documents and say the American people will not get a chance to see them as they reflect on Kavanaugh's background is the first time in history. This denial of access to documents violates a role that we thought was a tradition of the Senate under Senator Sessions and Senator Leahy, time and again when it came to Obama nominees.
They are suppressing these documents. If we are lucky we will see 6 percent, 6 percent, of all of the documents that have been produced -- that could be produced to reflect on Kavanaugh's true position on issues. He saying and the White House saying the American people have no right to know.
So, if he so proud of his conservative credentials show us the record, stand before us, trust the American people and they will trust you. I would say that to Judge Kavanaugh.
WALLACE: I -- and you will have the opportunity to do that starting on Tuesday. Let me just say as a point of saying goodbye, they have turned over half a million documents and the issue, part of it is about 3 million documents when he was staff secretary and every document that went to the president went to his desk.
But, Senator Durbin, thank you. Thanks for joining us. We look forward to your questioning of Judge Kavanaugh starting this week.
DURBIN: Thanks, Chris.
WALLACE: Always good to talk with you, sir.
Up next, we'll bring in our Sunday group to discuss what to expect from this week's showdown between the president's Supreme Court pick and Senate Democrats.
Plus, what would you like to ask the panel about how Judge Kavanaugh's confirmation would change the Supreme Court? Just go to Facebook or Twitter, @FoxNewsSunday, and we may use your question on the air.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We need to elect senators who will vote for judges to follow our laws and our Constitution as written.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: President Trump on the campaign trail this week making the case for his choice of Brett Kavanaugh for the Supreme Court and it's time now for our Sunday group.
Former press secretary for Vice President Pence, Marc Lotter, Charles Lane of "The Washington Post", former Democratic Congresswoman Donna Edwards, and "Washington Post" columnist and former White House speechwriter Marc Thiessen.
Chuck, when Justice Kennedy, the swing vote on the court, stepped down and there was talk about replacing him, we heard all this talk about a fierce battle for the future of the court and I want to ask you the same question that I asked Senator Durbin, why hasn't it happen? The Democrats don't seem to have gained much traction against Brett Kavanaugh so far.
CHARLES LANE, THE WASHINGTON POST: I think there's a lot of reasons, starting with the fact that it's just possible Republicans care a little bit more about this than actually Democrats do. I did a little checking and Democrats were a little bit less likely than Republicans to vote in 2016 based on the future of the Supreme Court. So, there's a little bit of a surprising passion gap there.
Secondly, I think it's the very simple fact that this is about 51 votes and the Republicans have 51 votes, and that means two things, one, Mitch McConnell can control the pace of this thing, control the calendar and so forth. And secondly, it means the Democrats are just struggling to get over that work and they are divided. Not divided down the middle, but they are divided between the main block of the party and several people who have to run for reelection in red states.
That's created a very difficult problem in messaging for them and so they are left dealing not with the substance of the Kavanaugh thing but procedural issues like document disclosure, arcane matters, very important but very arcane about executive privilege and the net effect is they have yet to identify some hot button things that can get the public excited against Judge Kavanaugh.
WALLACE: We ask you for questions for the panel and we got this on Twitter from Waris Waldo, which after I read it several times realize some persons interpretation of where is Waldo.
When did adhering to the United States Constitution became radical and threatening?
Marc Lotter, how do you answer that?
MARC LOTTER, FORMER PENCE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, I think that's the basis of this argument. And we have -- and Judge Kavanaugh and in Justice Gorsuch -- we have someone who adheres to the Constitution and many on the liberal side prefer to appoint justices who interpret the law to mean things other than what it says. That's the heart of the argument.
WALLACE: I want to turn to the nation's farewell to John McCain which has been the big story this week and his daughter Meghan's tribute to him at the National Cathedral yesterday, which still has a lot of people talking. Here's part of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGHAN MCCAIN: The America of John McCain has no need to be made great again because America was always great.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Marc Thiessen, it's her dad.
MARC THIESSEN, FORMER BUSH WHITE HOUSE SPEECHWRITER: Yes.
WALLACE: She obviously feels passionately about the fact that she thinks that President Trump didn't treat her dad well and he didn't, what did you think of her remarks?
THIESSEN: Well, first of all, just watching her this week has been heartbreaking because her grief has been palpable and so was her anger palpable yesterday and with good reason because Donald Trump treated her father disgracefully.
If you want to put this in perspective, there have been 1,974 United States senators since the founding of the republic. John McCain is only the sixth senator to lie in state who wasn't either a vice president or president. So, this is a tremendous testament and there are only 31 people in American history who had laid in state.
This may very well be the first time that the sitting president of the United States has not participated in honoring that person, and that as a result of his disgraceful behavior towards him. He was even criticizing John McCain by name a few weeks ago on the campaign trail to suggest that he wasn't a war hero and never apologized for that.
This is one of the reasons, Chris, why I think Donald Trump, despite a booming economy, his disapproval has reached now 60 percent in the country. It's not because people don't like his policies, because his policies are obviously improving the lives of people, the economy is booming and on employment is low. But his inability to be presidential and to rise to the occasion at a moment like this, put aside his petty grievances against John McCain, I think that's one of the reasons why his popularity doesn't match his success as president.
WALLACE: Congresswoman Edwards, I promise I'm going to bring one but Marc Lotter is out someone often defends this president. Your reaction?
LOTTER: Well, I think it takes two to tango. And I think John McCain and Senator McCain has made a very good career out of attacking presidents when he disagreed on both sides of the aisle.
WALLACE: But in fairness, he somehow had a good enough relationship with George W. Bush and Barack Obama that they spoke at his funeral.
LOTTER: And he did. This is one that continued on this week. And I think once we get past this, we will remember John McCain for all of his great service. The president is going to continue to go on and is going to do many things that John McCain supported like supporting our troops, investing in our military and we'll let their -- we'll let their disagreement I guess go on in history.
WALLACE: Congresswoman Edwards, your reaction to Meghan McCain's remarks and when you take in addition, because it wasn't just McCain, it was Joe Biden and it was Barack Obama, and it was George W. Bush, the last Republican president before Trump. Was this week a rebuke of President Trump?
DONNA EDWARDS, FORMER CONGRESSWOMAN, D-MD.: Well, I think that Meghan McCain's remarks and all of the remarks of the various speakers were John McCain speaking. His hand was clearly evident in those remarks and particularly Meghan's remarks and I think that there were spot on for where we are in this nation.
You know, I come from a military family too and I think for the president of the United States not to have honored and recognized Senator McCain's service, irrespective of policy disagreement I think was disgraceful and I think the nation stood up and said that it was disgraceful too. And that all of those speakers indicated that what was valued and Senator McCain in addition to his service in his honor was his commitment to this country and that we had a president of the United States who seemed incapable of even acknowledging that.
WALLACE: All right. We're going to leave it on that note. Panel, we will take a break here. We'll see you a little later.
Up next, President Trump threatens to cut Canada out of a new NAFTA deal and forge ahead just with Mexico. What would that mean for workers in the economy?
On this Labor Day weekend, AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka joins us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WALLACE: Coming up, President Trump looks to replace NAFTA as he works on a new trade deal with Mexico and Canada.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: And we're going to call it the United States-Mexico Trade Agreement. And we'll get rid of the name NAFTA.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: We'll talk with the head of the largest group of unions in the country, Richard Trumka, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WALLACE: Negotiations to hammer out a deal to reshape NAFTA, the three nation trade agreement between the U.S., Mexico and Canada, will continue this weeks after talks between the White House and Canada stalled amid some bitterness.
Joining us now to discuss the potential fallout for American workers is the president of the AFL-CIO, Richard Trumka.
Mr. Trumka, President Trump has negotiated a new NAFTA deal with Mexico, but talks with Canada stalled after some off the record comments that he made were published that he acknowledged that he won't make any concessions to Canada. And here's what he said about that afterwards.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Here's the good news, at least Canada knows where I stand, because we can't have these countries taking advantage of the United States anymore. It's very simple.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Question, can you support a deal that leads Canada out of a new NAFTA and will Congress pass it?
RICHARD TRUMKA, AFL-CIO PRESIDENT: Well, Chris, before I get to that, just let me say, on behalf of the hardworking men and women of this country who wake our country up every day, make her run all day and put it to bed at night, let me wish you a happy Labor Day and all your listeners a happy Labor Day.
Look, our economies are integrated, the three countries in North America, the economy is pretty emigrated. And it's pretty hard to see how that would work without having Canada in the deal. You said that the Mexican deal is close, but there's still a lot of work to be left -- to be done, even on the Mexican deal, Chris, because the language isn't drafted. We haven't seen whole chapters of the thing. We're anxious to move forward with it and anxious to have all three countries involved, because NAFTA has had a devastating effect on the working people of this country for the last 25 years. So we've been aggressively pursuing an agreement that works for the workers in all three countries and I can say we're not done yet.
WALLACE: OK, but let's talk about the parts of the deal we do know about that the Trump administration has negotiated with Mexico that it seems to me would be pretty good for workers. Let's put them up on the screen.
Seventy-five percent of a car's value would have to be manufactured in North America. That's up from 62.5 percent. Forty to forty-five percent of the car must be made by workers in whatever country earning at least $16 an hour.
Do you support both of those provisions and, frankly, do you think that Mexico would live up to them? For instance, the salary for car workers, because in Mexico right now the salary for a car worker on average is $3 an hour. Do you think they actually are going to boost that to $16 an hour?
TRUMKA: Well, first of all, those provisions can be very, very good. And you said that the current provision is really 62.5. In actuality, Chris, it's only in the 40s because they -- they do a little cheating saying if you put in 62 percent and China puts in 38 percent, it counts as 100 percent. So it's really lower and the change is really more -- more effective. We haven't seen the details of it yet.
But you hit the nail right on the head. It doesn't matter what's in that agreement. If we can't monitor it and effect it -- and enforce it effectively, then the agreement will fail for workers and it will fail for the country. So what we're pushing right now, and we're working with Ambassador Lighthizer is, is a way to let us effectively monitor what's going on the ground and then enforce the agreement regardless of who's in the White House, because we've been told for over 25 years, trust us, this agreement will be good for workers. What we need is an agreement that we can enforce no matter who's in the White House.
WALLACE: Let me --
TRUMKA: That's what we're looking for.
WALLACE: Let me step back for a minute and go broader view.
How does big labor feel about President Trump at this point? I mean the fact is growth is up. Unemployment is down. He's using tariffs to try to break down trade barriers that I know that you hate. So, I mean, what mark do you give Donald Trump on this Labor Day weekend?
TRUMKA: Well, when he was elected, I said I would call balls and strikes. When he did something that was good for workers, we'd support him. When he did something that was bad for workers, we would oppose him.
Unfortunately, to date, the things that he's done to hurt workers outpace what he's done to help workers. He hasn't come up with an infrastructure program that could put a lot of us back to work. He overturned a regulation that would actually denied over 5 million people overtime that they would have had. He overturned some health and safety regulations that will hurt us on the job. Enforcement of OSHA and MSHA isn't what it should be.
So we keep trying to find areas where we can work with him. And where we can, we do.
WALLACE: Well, but let me ask you -- Mr. Trumka, let me ask you, I mean, 3.9 percent unemployment. 3.5 million jobs created, 4 percent -- 4.2 percent GDP in the last quarter. I mean don't you give him something for that?
TRUMKA: No, those are good, but wages have been down since the first of the year. Gas prices have been up since the first of the year. So, overall, workers aren't doing as well. He passed the tax bill that encourages companies to outsource. We can't agree to support something like that. He's -- every place we can, Chris, we do. But, unfortunately, right now, the scale is weighted against him because he's done more to hurt workers than to help workers.
WALLACE: So you have launched a new big political campaign for the midterms. You have an ad out on the web right now. Is it your hope that Democrats would take back control of the House and Senate and block the Trump agenda, even those parts that have been good for workers, like creating 3.5 million new jobs?
TRUMKA: It's not about Democrats or Republicans. It's about electing people who will support working people in this country. That's what we're looking to do.
We started a couple of months ago, going door-to-door, member to member with our members saying, what issues are important to you? We put those together. We're going to put them in front of candidates. Those candidates that support the issues that our members say they want, need and should have are the candidates that we'll support.
It probably will be Democrats because, unfortunately, Democrats support working people more than Republicans have. We'd like to change that. But the reality is, Democrats support working people more than Republicans, although we go candidate by candidate and we support those Republicans that support working people.
WALLACE: Finally, this week I looked at the presidential exit polls from 2016. Hillary Clinton beat Donald Trump in union households by just nine points, 51 percent to 42, which interestingly enough is the smallest Democratic advantage since Reagan ran against Mondale in 1984. Question, don't a lot of your members, union members, don't they support Donald Trump?
TRUMKA: Well, actually, three percentage points more of our members voted for Donald Trump than they did for Mitt Romney. Unfortunately, 10 percent of our members -- 10 percent fewer of our members voted for Hillary Clinton. They didn't believe her on trade. They didn't believe her on a couple of other issues.
But you talked about households. Union members themselves are a much higher percentage in there. Again, we give them all the facts and I believe in my membership, the rank and file, that when they get the facts, they make the right decision every time. We're giving them the facts on this president and anybody who's running against him and they will ultimately decide which one of those candidates that they want to support.
WALLACE: Mr. Trumka, thank you. Thanks for sharing part of this Labor Day holiday weekend with us. We'll stay on top of all this, sir.
TRUMKA: Chris, thanks for having me on. And, again, happy Labor Day.
WALLACE: When we come back, the Trump administration opens the door to regulating Google. Our Sunday panel returns to discuss the battle with big tech. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think Canada very much wants to make the deal and I think it's going to be obviously very good for Canada if they do and I think it's probably not going to be good at all if they don't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: President Trump playing hardball with Canada as he tries to rewrite the quarter century old North American Free Trade Agreement, or NAFTA.
And we're back now with the panel.
Well, Congresswoman Edwards, there was a lot of howling, I think it's fair to say, from Democrats when President Trump said that he was going to revamp NAFTA. But aren't there, and it talked about it with Mr. Trumka, aren't there a number of provisions in this agreement with Mexico at least that are good for American workers?
EDWARDS: Well, I think there are also a lot of Democrats who very much wanted to see a North American Free Trade Agreement that really invests in workers, that makes sure that we have protections across both borders. And I think you heard that from what Mr. Trumka was saying. And I -- you know, I think it --
WALLACE: But raising -- but raising the wage to $16 an hour?
EDWARDS: Raising the wages. Exactly.
WALLACE: Raising the amount that has to be content from North America?
EDWARDS: Right. And all -- those are -- those are actually things that many of us is Democrats have been calling for, for a long time because, you know, we can have free trade, but if it's not fair on both sides of the border, it really doesn't work. It doesn't keep workers here working and it doesn't make sure that workers in Mexico are being paid what they need. And I don't think you can have a North American Free Trade Agreement without having the other part of North America, which is Canada, in the deal too.
WALLACE: Let me pick up on that with you, Marc Lotter, because talks with Canada stalled on Friday over it seems to issues, one is continued dairy protections inside Canada and, secondly, the publishing of off the record comments by President Trump where he basically said, I'm not going to offer any concessions at all to Canada. Does this deal go through? And -- and I'm primarily, I guess, I'm talking about Congress, does this deal go through without Canada onboard?
LOTTER: I think it makes it much easier if Canada is on board to get it through Congress. But this is -- this is very tough negotiating with the president and the prime minister and the Canadian officials. The president is very clear, he wants to get this done. He wants Canada to be involved. And it's going to be a question now of, can they make enough concessions to make it fair on both sides? I think they will.
WALLACE: Let's turn to another big story this week and that is President Trump complaining that Google's search engine, when you put in "President Trump news," it has been calibrated to drown out conservative voices. The president and his team this week complained about that and even talked about regulating Google.
Here's the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I've made it clear that we, as a country, cannot tolerate political censorship, blacklisting and rigged search results.
We're not going to let them control what we can and cannot see, read, and learn from. We can't do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Chuck, first of all, from the best of your knowledge, is there political bias in the Google search? I mean is it calibrated to drown out conservative voices and to push liberal points of view? And, secondly, what do you make of the threat by the president that the government might get involved in regulating Google?
LANE: Well, the best of my knowledge about Google's algorithms is not very good.
WALLACE: Well, that's why I asked you. (INAUDIBLE).
LANE: But I -- I would be very surprised if somebody at Google said, let's set up the algorithm to drown out Donald Trump in any specific sense like that. I think these searches work in an incredibly complex ways that for some unconscious or otherwise neutral reason may be turning up what President Trump claims they're turning up. But, of course, it's just his claim.
But there's a bigger context for this, which is, a lot of stuff going on at Google, like a few months back an employee circulating a memo internally claiming that the company isolates conservatives internally, then he winds up on the outs. There's a movement within Google to decouple Google, so to speak, from defense contracting and so forth. And I think the president's pushing back against those things and he's more generally trying to turn Google into just another part of this big, fake news media that has been his big foil all through his political career.
You know, there's a lot of suspicion, both on the left and the right, in sort of populist America about these giant technology companies. And I think in that sense, he's just trying to turn them into another one of his scapegoats to show like everything is stacked against us, even the search engine.
WALLACE: Marc, your thoughts about whether the government should be regulating a company like Google? Are their First Amendment issues there? And if they were (ph) going to regulate Google in terms of its search engine, they can do a number of things just to make life difficult for Google.
THIESSEN: No doubt. And I -- look, I think the - - the fact that there -- there is conservative bias in social media. It's not just Google. It's FaceBook. It's Twitter. There's been a lot of accusations. They probably -- the only place where there's more anti- conservative bias than the legacy media is Silicon Valley. So, you know, and the fact is, a lot of people getting their news from Silicon Valley in a ways that they weren't a few years ago. But -- and so Trump is raising a valid point.
Where he loses me is when he says that he wants the government to start regulating it, because I -- the only institution I trust less than Google to regulate my -- my search is the federal government. So I think what we need is for people to be more proactive in terms of where they get their news and how they -- they consume their news.
One of the -- the -- the avenue of social media has given conservatives an incredible voice that they didn't have before because they didn't have to go through "The Washington Post" and "The New York Times." So they have a voice that they never had before. But we're also in these ideological silos were conservatives only read conservative news sources. Liberals only read -- Washington (ph) read liberal news sources. And I think we all need to do a better job of policing ourselves and getting out of our silos and listening to the other side because that's how we get over the division in the country.
WALLACE: Congresswoman Edwards, I want to pick up on the last point that Chuck made, and that is, isn't there a legitimate concern -- and on this populist issue about companies, whether it's Google or FaceBook or Twitter or Amazon, these huge companies that have so much power and so much money and so much influence?
EDWARDS: Well, I mean, but the concern, I think, is really misplaced because if you look at these entities, every time there, you know, is this sort of massive growth in this industry, something else starts up that becomes the next new thing. And we remember when Twitter was the next new thing and Instagram the next new thing. And so I think that the dynamism that's in the industry allows that to, you know, to create an environment where, you know, you can have a lot of different kinds of voices in there. And I think if anything is getting in the way of it in terms of the government, I think it's saying, you know, this -- these decisions around net neutrality because then that makes it even more difficult for conservative or even, you know, far left views to get into the mainstream if you're put on this secondary highway.
So -- but the idea that the government should have the -- the -- the ability to figure out what the search engine is, I don't think so. I mean most of the people I know in Congress can't even operate their Twitter handle.
WALLACE: I am remaining silent in this conversation. I'm -- I'm a luddite, which go to Google and look up what it means.
Thank you panel. See you next Sunday.
Up next, our "Power Player of the Week," Dolly Parton on why kids around the world call her "the book lady."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WALLACE: Most of us know her as a legendary singer and songwriter, but as we told you back in March, for millions of kids, she's the one who help them start reading early.
Here is our "Power Player of the Week."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DOLLY PARTON, FOUNDER, IMAGINATION LIBRARY: I just always thought there was magic in books because it takes you to other places. Anywhere you want to go, you can find it in a book.
It says Dolly Parton, that's my name.
WALLACE (voice over): The Library of Congress is not the first place you'd expect to see Dolly Parton, but there she was celebrating her love of books.
PARTON (singing): In my Tennessee mountain home --
WALLACE: It's a story that begins back when she was growing up, one of 12 children, in the Smoky Mountains of east Tennessee, the daughter of Robert Lee Parton.
PARTON: Daddy never had a chance to go to school. And daddy couldn't read nor write, but he was really a smart person enough and wondered what all he might have done had he had an education.
WALLACE: Fast-forward to 1995, when the country music star decided to start the Imagination Library, to give free books to children in her hometown.
Over the years, the program has spread across the country and overseas. A book every month to kids who sign up from birth until they turn five and go to kindergarten.
WALLACE (on camera): What does it mean to a child to get their own book mailed to them in their own name?
PARTON: It makes them feel important. It makes them feel special. So, of course, it makes them want to do what the book is all about, learn to read it.
WALLACE (voice over): Local communities pay for the books, but Dolly's group pays for sending out more than a million a month, which she helps cover through her companies and concerts and even a children's album.
PARTON (singing): I am a rainbow.
PARTON: Oh, millions of dollars, I'm sure.
WALLACE (on camera): And it's that important to you?
PARTON: Oh, it's very important, because it's my charity. Although there are many things that I do, this is the one that's nearest and dearest to my heart.
WALLACE (voice over): Dolly has been performing for more than 60 years. She's won eight Grammy's and is in the Country Music Hall of Fame. But she shows no sign at all of slowing down.
PARTON: My music is everything to me. It's my gift. It's my joy. It's my job. And it's just something that I love to do. And I never think about that I should quit it.
WALLACE: Which brings us back to the Imagination Library.
WALLACE (on camera): Though I understand that you have gotten a nickname from this program.
PARTON: I'm the book lady. Who knew?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are so honored that the hundred millionth book --
WALLACE (voice over): So there was Dolly with the librarian of Congress donating the 100 millionth book, unveiling a copy of her own "Coat of Many Colors," based on the coat her mother made for her out of scraps of cloth.
PARTON: Maybe we'll be back for our billionth book one of these days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right.
PARTON: Wouldn't that be nice!
WALLACE (on camera): What does it mean to you, Library of Congress?
PARTON: I know. Here I am. A little old country girl from the Smoky Mountains of east Tennessee. Now one of my little books about my mom and a story about my dad is going to be here forever in the Library of Congress.
WALLACE (voice over): Dolly even gave us a little concert about the coat and her family and what led her to share her dream with so many children.
PARTON (singing): In my coat of many colors that my mama made for me, made only from rags but I wore it so proudly. And although we had no money, I was rich as I could be, in my coat of many colors mama made for me, because she made it just for me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: Dolly's Imagination Library now teams up with the Library of Congress for a special story time for kids, the last Friday of each month streaming online.
And speaking of kids, I want to introduce you to a special one. Jack Henry Wallace, who was born on Friday, 8 pounds 6 ounces. Jack will make his television debut in December as part of our annual Christmas greeting from now the six Wallace grandkids. Jack, his mom and dad, and, yes, his proud grandpa are all doing well.
And that's it for today. Have a great week and we'll see you next "Fox News Sunday."
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