Sen. Graham: The threat to American personnel is real

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Sen. Graham: The threat to American personnel is real

Senate Judiciary Committee chairman Lindsey Graham reacts to escalation tensions with Iran.

This is a rush transcript from "The Story," May 20, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, HOST: All right, everybody. You are looking live as we stay at Montoursville, Pennsylvania. President Trump landing at the hangar there just moments ago. We expect him to take the stage in a few minutes. It is a crucial Rustbelt state, of course, in Pennsylvania.  One of the ones that sealed the deal for him in 2016. Economy is very strong in Pennsylvania.

But keep in mind, it is just 65 miles west of Scranton, the hometown of Joe Biden, who in the latest Quinnipiac poll of the state, leads the president by 11 points there. Good evening, everybody. I'm Martha MacCallum, and this is "The Story."

In moments, Karl Rove, Geraldo Rivera and Donna Brazile, on the state of the 2020 race tonight. But first, breaking tonight, tensions with Iran are escalating with the country's foreign minister slamming President Trump and his quote -- for his quote, "genocidal thoughts after he tweeted this yesterday.

The president saying, "If Iran wants to fight, that will be the official end of Iran. Never threatened the United States again." Strong words from our president. And a short time ago, on his way to tonight's rally, president said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I think Iran would be making a very big mistake if they did anything. If they do something, it will be met with great force, but we have no indication that they will.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Senate judiciary chairman Lindsey Graham is fresh off of a briefing from National Security Advisor John Bolton, and he joins me now.  Good to see you tonight, Senator. Thank you for being here this evening.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, R-S.C.: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: Let's start right there with what you were told by John Bolton.  And then, I want to show you what one of your colleagues said about the meeting.

GRAHAM: You know, I also was briefed Saturday, I think by Pompeo. So, this goes back to April decision by the president to designate the Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization. That's the muscle for the Ayatollah. On May 2nd, we told every country you can no longer buy oil from Iran and avoid sanctions. We took all the exemptions off the table.  So, we're really tightening the screws.

What I think and what the intelligence community believes, this is a reaction to those two decisions. And the intelligence is very strong that Iran is behind attacking ships and pipelines. The threat stream against our personnel in Iraq was picked up also by the British. So, we'll be briefed tomorrow in the Senate. And I'm convinced that the threat to American personnel in Iraq is real.

MACCALLUM: So, here is what Chris Murphy, Senator from Connecticut said.  He said, "I'm listening to Republicans twist to the Iran Intel to make it sound like Iran is taking unprovoked, offensive measures against the United States and our allies. Like it came out of nowhere. I've read the Intel too. And let me be clear, that is not what the Intel says," says Senator Murphy.

GRAHAM: Well, the Gang of Eight was briefed, and Senator Warner, said, "Everybody needs to hear what I hear." And I like Senator Murphy, but he's sort of missing the big picture here. What did you expect Iran did -- Iran to do, when we told everybody in the world, you can no longer buy their oil. All exemptions are off the table. When we designated the Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization, which it is, I expect Iran to push back and they have.

And I expect us to let Iran know what will happen to them if they attacked American interests in Iraq or anywhere else.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

GRAHAM: Who do you think blew up the pipeline, and who you think attacked these ships?

MACCALLUM: Bernie Sanders, says "Trump, the schoolyard bully, is threatening to take us into another war in the Middle East, just what we need."

GRAHAM: Yes.

MACCALLUM: Pete Buttigieg, also spoke out against it on Sunday night. So, you've got a lot of Democratic candidates who are lining up here. And they're sending a pretty strong signal to Iran. Saying, elect one of us -- you know, people of the United States, and we will be right back in that Iran deal.

GRAHAM: Well, you know, you don't have to believe me or Bolton or Pompeo, but we're going to have the secretary of defense and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs Joe Dunford, who has a tremendous credibility. They're going to brief us tomorrow. But you have to be kind of blind, these are the same people Bernie and other and Murphy, who thought it was a good idea to give that I told $150 billion in sanctions relief. And they can't believe he didn't build roads and bridges. These are the people that sold us the Iran Deal. These are the people that told us there is no crisis at the border.

So, I've been briefed, but the whole Senate is going to get briefed tomorrow. And these attacks against our allies, shipping, and pipelines are directed by Iran in my view, and the threat streams against American personnel are real, they just shot a rocket into the green zone.

So, Trump's doing the right thing, President Trump is by telling the Iranians, you go down this road at your own peril. And Bernie and these people got to explain to America exactly who they believe Iran to be.

MACCALLUM: All right. Just one more quick question before I let you go.  The White House sending the signal to Don McGahn the former White House counsel that they do not believe that he should testify on the Hill tomorrow. There is a lot in the Mueller report that they would like to ask him about with regard to McGahn's conversations with the president.

GRAHAM: Yes.

MACCALLUM: What do you think about this?

GRAHAM: Well, I think anything going on in the House is a political circus, is political revenge. Mueller was the person that I trusted to be fair. Don McGahn testified to Mueller for about 30 hours. They gave Mueller $1.4 million documents. What Nadler is doing is a political effort. And if I were the White House, I would not empower Nadler in his efforts to try to take the president down.

Mueller's decision matters to me, not Nadler. I could care less what Nadler thinks. Mueller was the final word on all things Trump --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Do you think it's right for the White House to say, you know, nobody. No, let's not, you -- I know you said it's a case closed.

GRAHAM: Yes. Yes.

MACCALLUM: That they want to shut this down.

GRAHAM: Right, yes.

MACCALLUM: Thank you very much, Senator Graham. Always good to see you, sir. Thank you.

GRAHAM: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: Also here tonight, Karl Rove, former deputy chief of staff to President George W. Bush, and a Fox News contributor. Geraldo Rivera, Fox News correspondent-at-large. And Donna Brazile, former chair of the Democratic National Committee, and a Fox News contributor. Welcome to all of you. Good to see you here tonight.

DONNA BRAZILE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks.

MACCALLUM: So, Karl, obviously, this is becoming an increasingly important area. I mean, you would think that the election was right around the corner, it's still a long way away. But some of the internal polling according to a political piece, in, they did 17 states, an internal polls that show that Joe Biden has a pretty good edge over the president in places like Pennsylvania, and Michigan, and Wisconsin. So, here he is tonight.

KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, absolutely. And the president's right to be there. Remember, these are the three closest states of the 2016 race that Donald Trump carried. Think about this. Nearly 14 million votes are cast in those three states, and the president wins all three of them by a combined total of 77,744 votes. That's one half of one percent separated he and Hillary Clinton in these states.

If he had not won these states, he would not be president. Michigan, a quarter of a percent 10,000 votes out of 4.8 million casts. Pennsylvania, 44,000 votes out of 6.2 million casts. Just over -- just about three quarters in one percent. Wisconsin, 22,000 votes out of 3 million votes cast. So, these are three critical states. And Pennsylvania is probably the most critical and most difficult of the three because, as you said, Joe Biden was born in Scranton, and grew up there. And he's represented Delaware in the United States Senate for nearly 30 some odd years. And that's like -- you know an adjunct to Pennsylvania and to Philadelphia Media Market covers the entire state. So, people in the southeastern part of the state sort of think of him as the third Senator from Delaware.

MACCALLUM: Right.

ROVE: (INAUDIBLE) from Pennsylvania.

MACCALLUM: We're just watching on the right-hand side of the screen. You saw the president's plane land. He's going to speak in just a moment. But let me spin around to Geraldo Rivera, here.

Chris Wallace did a very interesting Fox News Town Hall last night with Pete Buttigieg, the South Bend mayor. He doesn't want Joe Biden to walk away with this thing, and he sees it's a long way off still. And he's basically making a pitch for himself being a fresh new person in America who he thinks he can be president. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I represent a different area, a different generation, a different background, for sure. And I'm out to talk about our values with a different vocabulary.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Geraldo, what do you think?

GERALDO RIVERA, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT-AT-LARGE: Well, I have to laugh every time I look at him. Now, I think of the president's disparaging remark that he reminds him of Alfred E. Newman, to which Mayor Buttigieg, came back and said, who is Alfred E. Newman? He had to google it.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

RIVERA: You know, so that, that generational gap, I think it works for Mayor Pete, he's -- he is to me the most attractive and you know, unique candidate of all the two dozen Democrats in the race. He's a fairly successful mayor of South Bend. I say fairly because he's done a poor job of reaching out to the African-Americans in his own community. And that's why I think he's -- he is registering zero among African-American -- the voters who play such a crucial role in the Democratic primary.

But in all ways, in terms of the language he uses, the hipness, you know, his vision of a modern digital world. I think that he is a very, very -- you know, compelling candidate. I think he's an extreme long shot. But aside from Joe Biden, I think is the most interesting Democrat in the field.

MACCALLUM: Yes. We see Air Force One coming into view here in Montoursville, Pennsylvania. Donna, obviously, this is an area that Democrats want to turn around. That they want it to go back into their -- into their column. This is a Des Moines Register poll that shows 64 percent say that Vice President Biden has the most experience and he should enter the race which, of course, he already has. 31 percent, say his time has passed, he should stay out of the race. Five percent say that they are not sure. Your thoughts.

BRAZILE: Well, there is no question that Joe Biden has used this opportunity to get into the race. He has brought on a very solid staff, and the question is, can he maintain his status as the front-runner over the next nine months. Because as you well know, with 21 candidates, they're going after him.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Yes, great point.

BRAZILE: I want to go back to what Karl Rove said. He's absolutely right, the president needs to focus on those three states. We know in 2016 that the Clinton campaign took those states for granted. They didn't really compete in the last couple of weeks, Trump was there campaigning, just about every day and every other day.

But when you win those states by less than 78,000 votes, you got to go back there, you got to lock it down. Because I do believe Democrats know the -- know the recipe for victory in 2020.

MACCALLUM: Yes. You know we look at Pennsylvania, the unemployment rate has improved dramatically, their wages are up, manufacturing has come back in a big way in Pennsylvania, Karl. So, you have to wonder those voters who may be looking at Joe Biden right now, and perhaps, saying things along the lines of you know, he wants to take things back to normal, he wants us to unify, and all those messages which I think have been working well for him in the early going.

But they're going to look at the economy and say, a lot of these folks are talking about raising corporate taxes. You know, a lot of this kind of stuff would cool off the kind of growth that we have seen companies feel liberated to do right now.

ROVE: Yes, it's a sign of our times that Pennsylvania is changed so much from the last time Republicans wanted in the 1980s. Back then, the Republicans won by winning the suburban counties around Southeast Pennsylvania around Philadelphia. And the Democrats would win the state by running up the margins in the West.

Today, the coal mining and steel making region of the west is very pro- Trump, and it's the formerly Republican suburbs in Bucks, Montgomery, Delaware, and Chester counties in Southeast Pennsylvania.

It's where the Democrats hope to rebuild their margin and take the state back. And it's a -- it's an interesting change. The -- basically, people who either went to high school and didn't go to college or had some college are more predominant in the West. College-educated particularly those with advanced degrees tend to be more in the southeast.

And one group is going away from its traditional heritage and going towards Republicans and Trump. The other ones going away from its traditional heritage and going towards the Democrats.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

ROVE: Be interesting to see how this tension plays out for the next year and a half.

MACCALLUM: Yes. It sure will, Karl. You know, I think about the fact that President Obama said, you know, that, you know, coal companies could just kind of forget it. That there was going to be no enticement to those kind of energy companies, nonrenewable, energy companies in America anymore.

And now you see the regulations lifted in some of these areas that have allowed those companies to start to expand. That's helped a little bit of the energy jobs in Pennsylvania, Geraldo, manufacturing as I said, coming back.

So, you know, that's the equation that President Trump was about to get off the plane is certainly hoping people won't forget about when it comes time to vote.

RIVERA: Watching, Martha, if I may, the military aid at the doorway of Air Force One, that's not -- that's not the big one. Like, I don't know what they designate that. I guess it's all Air Force One as president on it.

(CROSSTALK)

ROVE: That was -- its Air Force One. Yes.

MACCALLUM: Yes, that's right.

RIVERA: It is. I was thinking over what Mayor Pete said about John Bolton driving the United States to war. National Security Advisor John Bolton, driving the United States to war in Iran right now. Just the way he did in Iraq back in 2003.

You know, and it is -- it is to me, he also referenced what the Iranian prime minister -- foreigners, that Zarif told me a couple of weeks ago in a private briefing that the United States is being driven by the B-team in Iran. John Bolton, Benjamin Netanyahu, and Mohammed bin Salman, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, it's being driven to conflict and unnecessary conflict.

And I'm not sure how that plays. I hope the president, if indeed he is in the thrall of John Bolton, the neoconservative hawk in his -- in his inner circle, I just hope that we don't do something or get pushed into something accidental where we get back into another shotgun oil kind of scenario with massive destruction in the Middle East.

The Iranians under attack, lashing out at us. You know, they say they've survived Genghis Khan, they've survived Alexander the Great, they'll survive America. I just think that they -- what the last thing the president's campaign needs right now is a -- is a shooting war, you know, in the -- in the Middle East.

I know that he resists. Generally speaking, he is resisting, he said he opposed the war in Iraq. I think he resists military adventures, and --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: But he said he doesn't want a war on Iran either.

RIVERA: I mean, I hope that's right. That aircraft carrier through the Suez Canal didn't settle me any --

MACCALLUM: Well, Donna?

ROVE: Martha, may I set the record straight on one thing.

MACCALLUM: Go ahead, Karl.

ROVE: Mayor Pete attacked John Bolton for the Iraq war. Well, John Bolton was not a part of the Bush administration in 2001, 2002, or 2003. I think he joined us later as U.N. Ambassador. So I thought it was a cheap shot.

The administration has taken prudent steps to say signal to the Iranians that they -- that they should not take advantage of this moment and launch further attacks upon our allies or American assets in the region. It was prudent, it was reasonable, it was sensible and it was --

RIVERA: Sending an aircraft carrier through the Suez Canal? I mean, maybe that's your definition, Karl, of prudent.

ROVE: Absolutely.

RIVERA: To me --

MACCALLUM: Well, I mean --

ROVE: It's prudent to say -- it's prudent to say when you have Iranian back rebels in the south of the Saudi Peninsula launching drone missiles against assets, oil assets in the region. And when you have the threat --

RIVERA: We fund the Saudi air force that's bombing the hell out of these people in Yemen.

ROVE: Let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. It is also reasonable and prudent when you have evidence that the Iranians are putting missiles on fast boats that could attack our assets in the region and the allies and our assets of our allies. And when there is a deep suspicion that they're behind the four -- the attack on for oil freighters there and when they are making open declarations that they will close the Strait of Hormuz, it is prudent for the United States to show strength in the region.  Now maybe you think it's better than we just run away but that wouldn't be the way that --

RIVERA: Saber rattling has gotten us nowhere vis a vis Iran. How can you compare those -- we can swat the Iranian --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Let me get Donna -- I want to get Donna's response to this because we all know that if these escalations continue, and if there is any kind of confrontation with Iran, it will become a major point of the 2020 race and the candidates have said that they want back into the deal.  Donna, go ahead.

(CROSSTALK)

ROVE: And the president reacted to that by meeting with the Swiss -- the Swiss who are our liaison and by saying we don't want to war the Middle East.

MACCALLUM: As I said, he's made it clear that he says he did not want war in Iran. But let Donna respond here.

BRAZILE: And look, I also think it's important that the administration briefs Congress not just the gang of eight but to make sure that we're on the same page. It's time that we renew the authorization of military force that we also have some congressional backing if and when whatever the situation might lend us up.

We know Iran has been messing with many countries in that region from Yemen to Lebanon, every place else. We should not rush. We have time to make sure we get it right. I want to go back to something that was said earlier in terms of Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania call -- I'm following Karl Rove tonight but he's right on the suburban.

And when I -- when I look at the suburbs now in southeastern Pennsylvania, I think about the gender gap. I don't think President Trump will be able to close the gender gap in 2020. That's why I also believe the Democrats will have an advantage of those three things.

MACCALLUM: That's interesting. You know, you did have -- I said the other day -- reported about how more women are giving to the Trump campaign than in the last round. And clearly, Donna is right. I mean, the women in the suburban areas around Philadelphia which you know, we should also point out is where Joe Biden has placed his headquarters of his campaigns in Philadelphia, the women in those areas I think have -- were turned off by the tweeting.

They're turned off by a lot of what they have seen, and some of them may be open to someone like Joe Biden whose biggest I think most successful campaign slogan to date is that he wants to you know, sort of take the country back to normal. But people have to think about what that means exactly and I think that we go through this process you're going to get a better sense of you know, policy and what normal actually looks like because I think some people might --

BRAZILE: And remember, we have six women running in a Democratic primary so we also need to focus on those women because I do believe that among six of them, we will find a sleeper.

ROVE: Martha, there's one other Pennsylvania thing to make of note and that is the northeastern part of the state which is -- which is benefiting from the natural gas fracking revolution. This is a -- part of it as tends to be the further north, you get the more Republican it gets. But Scranton and Wilkes-Barre and other Democratic strongholds are in this area.

And the energy revolution there is going to make people think twice about voting Democrat because Democrats have taken particularly in this region.  They don't want Pennsylvania gas to be sent to New York to fuel people's heaters and air conditioner. So there's another part of the state that's going to be -- there's another part of the state that it's going to be moving around. It's going to be fun to watch how it moves.

MACCALLUM: Yes. So Pennsylvania is a great microcosm of America. That's why it's such a fun state to watch throughout the course of this.  President Trump is there on a beautiful evening in Montoursville, Pennsylvania. Thank you so much to all three of you. Let's listen to the president. Watch some of this.

(TRUMP RALLY)

MACCALLUM: All right. Let's take a moment here. President Trump holding a rally in a key -- in the key battleground state, one of them Pennsylvania.

I want to bring Charlie Hurt, Washington Times opinion editor and a Fox News contributor. Charlie, good to see you tonight.

CHARLIE HURT, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Good to see you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: You know, just watching as you saw he just brought a man up on stage who had a rather colorful suit on that looked like a brick wall and the president said, you know, I could have stayed at home on this Monday night, you know, but I wanted to be here with all of you. And no doubt some of the recent poll numbers have made that motivation that much clearer, Charlie.

HURT: Yes, indeed. And you know, this is where the president is in his element and he loves it and I think that's probably a very, very good sign. Usually when politicians are enjoying campaigning as much as President Trump enjoys campaigning. It's easier to get onto a winning train like that and I think it's on full display tonight.

MACCALLUM: You know, when you take a look at some of the headwinds that the president has coming at him. The Russia investigation seems to never go away.

HURT: Yes.

MACCALLUM: Tonight, Jerry Nadler saying that if Donald McGahn doesn't come tomorrow, he said he expects him to be there but he said in the past that that would be sort of the gear that would start the impeachment train potentially rolling.

You have Justin Amash, a Republican who was also saying that he wants to see that very big dichotomy here between the two sides of what we see going on here tonight and back on Capitol Hill.

HURT: But I think that this is another one of those cases where I think the president, that President Trump has better political instincts than any other politician around here, certainly any of the politicians I've ever covered.

And I think there is a reason why he likes to bring up the Russia investigation. He calls it a hoax. the reason I think he likes bringing up is as long as Democrats are talking about that and we have gotten to the bottom of it we realized that there was no collusion, we've learned that there was no effort by the Trump campaign and Vladimir Putin to rig the election. There is no evidence of that.

And then and as long as Democrats are talking about that and President Trump encourages them to keep talking about that.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

HURT: And then he turns and talks about things like the economy, like his efforts to fix the situation at the border, like his efforts to stand up to countries like China. It makes them look all the more serious.

These Democrats they look like a small kid in a bar fight, you know, like, hold me back, hold me back. They don't want to do impeachment because they know they are going to lose impeachment. And so, they're just coming up with all of these reasons to say, OK, we are going to do impeachment next week. At some point they start to look kind of ridiculous.

MACCALLUM: Yes. And now Robert Mueller, you know, maybe sometime in June will testify. And I think you make a great point. Because when you get out in the country and even when you talk to candidates who are running for the Democratic nomination and you ask them, you know, are people talking about this issue? do people care about this issue? Not really.

You know, the thing they do care about, though, Charlie, one of the things they care about is the China trade issue and remarkably, you know, I heard a couple of really interesting interviews earlier this week with some manufacturing folks out in the Midwest saying, that it was worrying them. That they were concerned about their bottom line and their business with the tariff situation.

However, they said they would still vote for President Trump because they feel that he has done other things right and if they have to give time on it, they think it's going to work out. But China, you know, can go either way for this president. Do you agree?

HURT: Absolutely. It is the most amazing thing when you talk to people in the Midwest manufacturers or you talk to farmers across the south or even out west. They are all hurting badly. Badly. And these are all people who supported President Trump.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

HURT: But I cannot -- I cannot find a single person and I've talked to a lot of them, a lot of them are my neighbors, they're all -- they still remain huge supporters of Donald Trump even as they are feeling enormous pain.

But the reason I think is because they believed that President Trump is the first person who has sort of stepped forward and is willing to take on this problem.

MACCALLUM: He is.

HURT: And they believe the long-term solution will help them far more in the long run that the pain that they feel right now.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Well, he's trying to shore up exactly those voters right now.

HURT: Yes.

MACCALLUM: Let's go back. And he's back talking again. Thanks, Charlie.

(TRUMP RALLY)

MACCALLUM: Charlie Hurt is still with us. Charlie, as we watch all of this play out somebody, you know, it's hot today.

HURT: Yes.

MACCALLUM: You know, something happened in the front rows there. And they are moving somebody from the crowd who needed some medical attention.

But you know, the president talking about -- did you -- he was going back and forth. Make America great or keep America great? It sounded like the keep America great crowd won. He's sort of, you know, off-the-cuff polling that he was doing there.

HURT: Yes. And it's a great poll. It's the people that love him the best. And it's highly entertaining. And you know, his impeccable sense of timing. The way, you know, what politician, you've never seen a politician who stops, pauses in the middle of a rally for somebody who faints.

This is something that happens at rallies with some frequency especially when the weather warms up like his. But everything he just has a way of keeping the audience glued to him and it's a real talent in politics.

MACCALLUM: It is. You know, I thought that when he start, he walks away, you know, kind of walks around the stage.

HURT: Yes.

MACCALLUM: You think of concerts that you've been to where there is like a guitar solo that's going on for a while something is happening. It is -- it's a very -- he definitely has a talent for doing this kind of thing. All right. I think we are back. I think we're back in speech time. So, let's watch, Charlie. Listen more. We'll be right back.

(TRUMP RALLY)

MACCALLUM: Charlie Hurt is still standing by. The president is talking about Joe Biden there, Charlie. Obviously, he seems to be his biggest competition at this point and he is speaking to the home crowd here, not too far from Scranton, talking about the trade deals, talking about the economy.

And as we said earlier, Joe Biden's sort of main selling point right now is he's going to bring us back to normal and unify the country. Your thoughts.

HURT: And he's going to make Joe Biden where those comments from foreign leaders who said that they want Joe Biden back. He's going to make him wear those comments through this entire -- for as long as Joe Biden is in the race.

And it's a very smart strategy because it allows him to pivot to the fact that President Trump is an America first candidate and he is unabashedly so. And it's a --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: But, Charlie, what do you say to "The Story" from -- just excuse me for a second -- from Politico about the 17 states' internal polling from the Trump campaign according to this Politico report, it shows that Joe Biden is ahead in Pennsylvania, ahead in Michigan and ahead in Wisconsin.

HURT: I think that it's early and I think that those polls are sort of meaningless at this point. I think over the long run people -- you know, I've been -- Joe Biden has run for president what, at least three times --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Twice, I believe.

HURT: -- literally and many other times beyond that. I think that ultimately his gaffes and his fake folksiness winds up wearing off on people and it only reminds people where we have a guy like Donald Trump, when he says stuff, he doesn't really take gaffes. He says things that you're not supposed -- politicians aren't supposed to say but that juxtaposition I think makes Joe Biden look a whole lot faker.

MACCALLUM: But when you look at Pete Buttigieg the town hall over the weekend and a lot of discussion today about how appealing he is as a politician, that he comes across well. He is good on his feet, all of those kinds of things.

And you know, clearly, he's in third place I think in some of these polls right now. He's certainly someone to watch in this. But in terms of his ideas, he made reference to four different places where he would raise taxes.

HURT: Yes. He's very polished, he's a very good politician. But again, I think that juxtaposition sort of helps Trump in a lot of ways and it certainly did in 2016.

But again, Martha, and I think this is the most important thing and you just mentioned it, 2016 was more about issues that any presidential election of the past couple of decades. And I think that 2020 followed suit and it's about issues, the way it was in 2016, I think Trump wins that in a walk.

Because you're right. This, you know, Buttigieg and all of these other Democrats running, their policy proposals are, they're just -- you are unelectable. They're terrible. People don't want them. They're raising taxes. You've got Democrats actually in office, Democrats talking about abortion up to birth. It's crazy, crazy stuff.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Yes. I mean, he said he would be in support of that as well.

HURT: Abolishing ICE. All of this stuff. Trump wins on all those issues.

MACCALLUM: We'll see. Let's go back now for a moment. The president in Montoursville in Pennsylvania tonight trying to rev up the crowd. Let's listen in.

(TRUMP RALLY)

MACCALLUM: Well, the 2020 race is alive and well and very much underway in Pennsylvania tonight. The president speaking in Montoursville, Pennsylvania, about the economy, going after Joe Biden and revving up the crowd there. That is "The Story" on this Monday night. Tucker Carlson is coming up next with more of President Trump tonight in Pennsylvania.

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