'Fox News Sunday' on September 18, 2022

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Shannon Bream presses Sen. Graham on abortion pivot: 'I won't sit on the sidelines'

Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., joined 'Fox News Sunday' to discuss his stance on abortion ahead of the 2022 midterm elections.

This is a rush transcript of ‘Fox News Sunday’ on September 18, 2022. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

SHANNON BREAM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I'm Shannon Bream.

Policy fights ignite in the final stretch of the midterms -- as governors fly migrants, the president boosts unions and a Republican senator puts his party on the spot over abortion.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): We're not afraid to talk about it. We're proud to be pro-life.

BREAM (voice-over): Senator Lindsey Graham's proposal putting the issue front and center just two months until midterms.

JOHN FETTERMAN (D), PENNSYLVANIA SENATE CANDIDATE: Abortion rights are on the ballot.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): The real question, which is still not being asked, is what restrictions will the Democrats support?

BREAM: We'll speak live exclusively with Senator Graham about the blowback from this big gamble. Senator Graham, only on "FOX News Sunday".

Plus --

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The American people won and special interests lost.

BREAM: The White House takes an ill-timed victory lap on inflation, as markets tank. And our new FOX poll shows Americans feel the sting of high prices.

SEN. RICK SCOTT (R-FL): You know, they're living in fantasy land.

BREAM: And the president helps close a deal to keep trains on the tracks, but faces questions about what each side is actually getting.

We'll ask White House economic adviser Jared Bernstein about inflation, the union deal and complaints the White House is tone deaf.

Then -- Democratic governors blast Southern state Republicans for sending migrants north to blue state cities, as both sides call each other hypocrites.

GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D), CALIFORNIA: What Ron DeSantis is doing is a disgrace.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R), FLORIDA: It just shows you, you know, their virtue signaling is a fraud.

BREAM: We'll bring in our legal panel on the justification and what one governor's charge that this could be kidnapping.

And debates locked in some high stakes Senate races in Georgia and possibly Pennsylvania. Our Sunday panel will discuss the negotiations and the stakes for both sides.

All, right now, on "FOX News Sunday".

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BREAM (on camera): Hello again from FOX News in Washington.

We are now just about 50 days out from midterms and headlines on huge issues like immigration, inflation and abortion are changing the dynamics. Just this week, the president again made his case that inflation, he says, will soon ease.

And spats between governors over migrant arrivals forced vulnerable candidates to respond.

In the middle of all of this, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham caused outcry in his own party by proposing a bombshell bill banning abortion after 15 weeks.

Senator Graham defended himself on FOX News digital in an op-ed writing, quote: Voters in key battleground states prefer a candidate who supports protections at 15 weeks to a candidate who believes in abortion on demand at any stage of pregnancy.

In a moment, we will speak live exclusively with Senator Graham and ask him whether his colleagues agree with him.

But, first, let's turn to Lucas Tomlinson live at the White House where the administration faces a tough balancing act on the economy.

Hello, Lucas.

LUCAS TOMLINSON, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Shannon, President Biden's poll numbers have increased 3 percent over the past two months, but overall, his job approval rating remains under water.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOMLINSON (voice-over): A new FOX News poll says 56 percent of voters now approve of the president's job performance. Only 3 percent say inflation is under control, 55 percent say not at all.

James Taylor crooning, President Biden celebrated the passage of one of his signature pieces of legislation.

BIDEN: I signed the Inflation Reduction Act into law, the single most important legislation passed in Congress to combat inflation.

TOMLINSON: While Biden was spiking the football on the South Lawn, stocks fell, the biggest drop in more than two years as recession fears continue.

On Saturday, another chartered busload of migrants arriving at the vice president's house for the second time in two days.

More buses also arriving in New York from Texas. Governor Greg Abbott says he plans to send even more.

GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R), TEXAS: If they will not go to the border, we're taking the border to them.

TOMLINSON: Florida Governor DeSantis also sending migrants up north, 50 arriving by plane on the wealthy island of Martha's Vineyard, over the objections of some residents who say they can't handle that many and called in the National Guard.

The migrants were quickly put on a ferry bound for Cape Cod.

The vice president still claiming the southern border is secure. Not everyone in her party agrees.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): It's wrong. She's dead wrong on that.

TOMLINSON: Experts say inflation, the border and abortion are on the ballot this fall, after Senator Lindsey Graham introduced new legislation banning abortion after 15 weeks.

The Senate's top Democrat says this is not a path to victory.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): They're not going to be able to run and duck and bob and weave and tie themselves in pretzel knots.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TOMLINSON (on camera): President Biden is in London where he will attend Queen Elizabeth's funeral Monday morning -- Shannon.

BREAM: Lucas Tomlinson for us at the White House this morning -- thank you, Lucas.

And joining us now here in Washington, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.

Senator, welcome back to "FOX News Sunday". Good to see you.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Thank you. Congratulations, by the way.

BREAM: Thank you so much. Great to have you here this week.

GRAHAM: Thank you.

BREAM: OK. This is how "Politico" described a top Democrat reacting to your introduction of this bill: Graham's stunt is a godsend and helps us remind voters Republicans want to ban abortion everywhere.

And from the conservative side, you got Deroy Murdoch over at "American Spectator", he said, basically, you've handed the left a box of grenades.

GRAHAM: OK. Let me just say what I believe, number one. I'm pro-life, even in an election year. And to those who suggest that being pro-life is losing politics, I reject that. So, listen to what I'm saying and you decide today who you're with.

Chuck Schumer introduced legislation several months ago that would allow abortion on demand up to the moment of birth, like China and North Korea, for the entire nation. What did I do in response? I said, at 15 weeks, when the baby can feel pain and suck his thumb, that we're going to ban abortion except in cases of rape, incest, life of the mother.

We're talking almost four months into the pregnancy. It puts us in line with France, who's 12 weeks, Germany, England who's at 14 weeks. Only in Washington is it extreme to protect a baby at 15 weeks from an excruciating death.

Only thing I got going for me is every pro-life group in America and about 70 percent of the American people. So I don't apologize for being pro-life. I think the pro-life movement has found a position that most Americans will agree upon. There will be plenty of pro-choice people who will say at 15 weeks, we should ban the late term abortions, exceptions for rape, incest, life of the mother.

The people are with me. And the Democratic Party is extreme on the border. They're extreme on crime. They're extreme on inflation.

And to my Republican colleagues: now is the time to stand up and be counted. The pro-life movement is counting on you.

BREAM: OK.

GRAHAM: When you ask about abortion, the answer can't be, I'd like to lower inflation. Give a logical answer.

BREAM: OK. So, let -- but let me get you to this. This is what you said back in June. This is around the time the Supreme Court was getting ready to overturn Roe v. Wade.

GRAHAM: Right.

BREAM: That you guys have argued for to send it back to the states. Here's what you said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRAHAM: There's nothing in the Constitution that creates a right to abortion as a constitutional principle. This was a judge made, out of cloth law. Now, what this court has done is taken us back to pre-1973 where each state can decide, through their elected officials, when life begins and how to treat -- treat life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: OK, back to the states.

GRAHAM: Yeah.

BREAM: Here's what President Biden said: When a lawmaker goes from touting states rights to touting a nationwide ban, it becomes clear they're not concerned with the Constitution.

You got to explain the pivot.

GRAHAM: OK. Number one, if you know anything about me, Shannon, for 20 years, I've been supporting federal legislation banning late term abortion.

BREAM: But you said there states should make these decisions.

GRAHAM: But -- the states -- here's what Dobbs says: elected officials can make the decision, state or federal. I'm not inconsistent.

In 2020, I had a bill on the floor of the United States Senate right across the Capitol that banned abortion at 20 weeks because the baby can feel pain. I had 51 Republicans voting with me and two Democrats.

To suggest that I'm new to the game opposing late term abortion is ridiculous.

BREAM: No one's suggesting that.

GRAHAM: Listen, I was the author of the Unborn Victims of Violence Act that made it a crime to hurt a baby if you attack the mother. You'd be charged with two crimes if you attack a mother and you hurt the baby. It passed 72 votes in the United States Senate.

I never suggested there's no place for the unborn in Washington, D.C. If you tell the pro-life movement that we're out of business in the nation's Capitol, that we can't set some minimum national standard to prevent Chinese abortion policy in Maryland or California, there'll be revolt by the pro-life community.

BREAM: OK.

GRAHAM: The people are with me.

What am I saying? I will not sit on the side lines and watch this nation become China when it comes to aborting babies up to the moment of birth. I reject that. I will continue to introduce legislation at the national level, setting a minimum standard --

BREAM: OK.

GRAHAM: -- at 15 weeks, no abortion except for life, rape -- save the life of the mother, rape, incest.

BREAM: Yes. Your record on that is clear.

GRAHAM: Thanks.

BREAM: It's the timing that has everybody scratching their heads because "Axios" said you didn't --

GRAHAM: I'm scratching my head.

BREAM: -- you didn't ask Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell.

GRAHAM: I've been doing this --

BREAM: OK. But here's what he said -- here's what he says about this being a national federal issue. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): I think most of the members of my conference prefer that this be dealt with at the state level.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: It's been the argument for overturning Roe. So when did you tell him?

GRAHAM: It's not the argument for overturning Roe.

BREAM: Well, that was part of the argument. The Republicans have consistently said, in an amicus brief to the Supreme Court, get rid of Roe, send this back to the states.

When did you tell him and what was his reaction?

GRAHAM: I have been -- the pro-life community met with him.

Senator McConnell is a good man. He's a pro-life candidate. He voted for my bill in 2020 to ban abortion on demand at 20 weeks because the child can feel pain.

We're not talking about transportation policy or -- to all the states rights people, there's a lot of things been done in this country under the name of states rights that was wrong.

BREAM: Uh-huh.

GRAHAM: This is a child in being, developing, becoming a human being. At 20 weeks, you encourage the mother and father to sing to the unborn baby because they can associate your voice with who you are.

At 15 weeks, the baby can feel pain. You provide anesthesia to save the baby's life when you operate.

To expect the pro-life community to sit on the sidelines and watch abortion policy in Maryland and California abort a baby up to 38 weeks is not going to happen. Dobbs does not require that. Dobbs says state or federal officials can do it.

Here's what I would tell the Republican Party: be not afraid. Stand up for the baby all over the country. We're in line with France, for God sakes. We're three months more liberal than the French.

I am confident the American people would accept a national ban on abortion at 15 weeks with exceptions for the life of the mother, rape and incest and reject the Chinese abortion policy being pushed by the Democratic Party. And if we can't do this for the unborn, what good are we to the unborn?

And I'll tell you this as a pro-life politician: if you stand with the unborn, the pro-life voters are not going to stand with you.

BREAM: So, let's talk about voters because you're doing this in the middle of the midterm that is tightening.

GRAHAM: Yes.

BREAM: And you guys want to control the Senate, and there are those who say this could cost you the Senate.

And our polling out this week that shows that 75 percent of those who say abortion is their top issue that's going to motivate them and go to the polls, they're going to vote for Democrats.

GRAHAM: Uh-huh.

BREAM: You've got Republicans now answering for this out in the campaign trial. You've got Don Bolduc up in New Hampshire who said this when he was asked about your proposal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DON BOLDUC (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE U.S. SENATE CANDIDATE: I will support no legislation, zero legislation at the federal level. We don't belong in the abortion arena. That is the states.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: You got a lot other topics that poll well for you. Abortion doesn't for Republicans.

GRAHAM: OK. Let's look at this way. This is a wrong track election.

I hope the general wins. I hope he wins. I hope Joe O'Dea who's pro-choice in Colorado wins, because he'll change the course of the country on inflation, on border policy, on crime. But abortion is on people's minds.

And here's what I would tell the general. The pro-life movement in this country does not believe the Constitution requires us to sit on the side lines and watch a baby dismembered in the 8th and 9th month of pregnancy. We don't believe that. The Dobbs decision said it is up to elected officials, state or federal.

So the position of the pro-life movement in this country that I am representing today is that there is a place, a voice for the unborn in the nation's Capitol and every Republican, except one or two, in 2020, voted for a 20-week ban.

Here's what I tell the general: when you're on the stump, look to your opponent and say, what restrictions would you put, if any, on aborting the child? And I promise you this, General, America is with you when -- when you say at 15 weeks, almost four months, this baby can suck its thumb, all organs are developed. It shouldn't be aborted unless there's a very rare circumstances.

The people are with you. The people are with us. The Constitution is with us. The 14th Amendment for it to mean anything means equal protection under the law.

I am not going to allow a baby in Maryland and California to be dismembered at 38 weeks, a horrible death without trying to help. And I'm going to keep fighting in that Capitol over there for the voice of the unborn. And this is a reasonable position. It puts us in the civilized world versus China or (INAUDIBLE) -- and Democrats are adopting China and North Korean abortion policies.

BREAM: OK, it cannot pass. It cannot pass in the current Congress. So, is it just about making them take that vote?

GRAHAM: So -- you know, the Unborn Victims of Violence Act took me ten years. I introduced it. It took ten years to get a federal law to say, if you attack a pregnant woman and you hurt her child, you'll be charged with two crimes. It took me ten years. Late term abortion took 12 years. It will not pass tomorrow.

But here's the question: Should it pass? If you come to Washington only introducing laws that can pass tomorrow, you're not much good for the country.

Should we be a nation that allows abortion on demand like China, up to the moment of birth? Hell no. We should be a nation that sets a national minimum standard of 15 weeks, like the civilized world, like the French, the British and the Germans. We shouldn't be an outlier.

Until my last breath, I will be fighting for this cause in the nation's Capitol. There is nothing preventing abortion policy in Washington, D.C. based on constitutional principles or Dobbs.

Here's the question for the pro-life movement: Are you going to accept the Republican Party who tells you Washington is out of business? I don't think you will. I don't think you should.

I hope the general wins. I hope all our candidates win. We're on the wrong track on crime, on immigration, on taxes, on inflation.

But the Democrats are trying to put us on the Chinese track when it comes to abortion. They're trying to create national law that would allow a child to be aborted up until the moment of birth. That's the wrong track. Our alternative is the right track.

BREAM: Well -- they didn't have the votes to get it. You don't have to votes to get this. So, we'll watch as this continues to play out. It certainly will be --

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: I will fight -- we will one day get these votes, as we did with the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, as we did banning late term abortions. We're the party against late term abortion. The Democratic Party is for abortion on demand, up to the moment of birth. The people are with us.

To the pro-life leaders out there, be not afraid. There's nothing wrong with being pro-life, folks.

BREAM: We got to leave it there.

Senator Graham, your position is clear. Thank you for coming to talk to us about it. Good to see you on "FOX News Sunday".

Up next, inflation numbers higher than expected this week as Americans try to cut their costs. We'll bring in White House Economic Council adviser Jared Bernstein on exactly how the president plans to help. Can he do it? Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BREAM: The president admits there is more work to do to rein in the rising prices that have hit Americans so hard in the last year. But economists say they remain concerned, as signs in the U.S. and abroad point to continued struggles on inflation.

Joining us here in Washington is White House economic adviser Jared Bernstein.

Great to have you back on "FOX News Sunday".

JARED BERNSTEIN, WHITE HOUSE ECONOMIC ADVISER: Great to be back with you, Shannon.

BREAM: OK. So, new numbers this week, as we discussed back in July, they're still at 40-year high.

Market Watch puts it this way. They say: Do not be fooled by falling gas prices. Inflation has spread far and wide through the U.S. economy. They say groceries, rent, home furnishing, medical care, new cars, auto insurance, education, all of these things surged in August.

So, what now?

BERNSTEIN: Well, first of all, this is why easing inflationary pressures is the president's number one top domestic priority.

And on gas prices, in fact, they didn't surge, at least they didn't surge up. In fact, they've been falling. They've been falling for 96 days in a row.

So, we're not talking about a blip. We're talking about a durable trend there, down $1.36 per gallon.

For the average driver, that's about $70 of savings per month. And if you aggregate that across all of the drivers in the country, it's coming close to half billion per day. So, that's a real bit of breathing room.

Now, the Inflation Reduction Act is very much in the mix now, and that's going to help reduce costs of prescription drugs, of health care, of energy. Very important to get that implemented.

But, yes, prices remain uncomfortably high. That's why it's the top priority. That's why we're doing everything we can, whether it's release of oil from the Strategic Reserves that the president oversaw to help on gas, whether it's our work in the ports, whether it's ocean shipping costs, a bill the president signed to help bring those costs down 60 percent.

We've got a lot more work to do, you said it correctly. But we are -- we are very much devoted to that cause.

BREAM: Let's talk about the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, because "Forbes" says this. It was a big part of bringing down the cost of the gasoline. It says: Of course, if for some reason we had a true supply emergency and found ourselves needing that oil, it would be looked upon as a terrible decision -- that we're at multi-decade low on what's available there.

Energy Department spokeswoman says it's not likely we're going to replenish it likely until likely after fiscal year 2023.

Are we putting ourselves in a precarious situation?

BERNSTEIN: I don't think so. I mean, I think this is actually one of the real success stories against that part of inflation, gas prices. So, when they peaked at over $5 a gallon, the president oversaw a release of historical number of barrels, 180 million from the strategic reserves, got our allies to release another 60 million. So, 240 million barrels.

That definitely -- that move definitely has its fingerprints on this $1.30 -- what did I say?

BREAM: Thirty cents, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: Actually $1.34, $1.34 decline since the peak in June, providing some much needed breathing room to families.

But look, we have a lot more work to do. And here I think the Inflation Reduction Act is so important. Not just what I said to you a minute about reducing costs in healthcare and prescription drugs and energy costs, but really thinking about the other side.

In this case, the Republicans have said that their top economic priority is repealing the Inflation Reduction Act. That is precisely the same thing as saying our top economic priority is raising the cost of health care, raising the cost of insulin to seniors, raising the cost of prescription drugs, raising the cost of energy. And that pushes it exactly the wrong direction.

BREAM: OK. The CBO has said, though, that it's negligible, the impact of potentially the Inflation Reduction Act, and that is what is being done with student loan forgiveness essentially wipes out any benefits.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah, no, I think that the point there is to get under the hood and look what's in the Inflation Reduction Act in this regard. I think there's two parts of it.

The first is that when you cap out of pocket expenditures for people, seniors, with serious expensive illnesses like cancers or Alzheimer's, diabetes, you're talking about saving someone who's now spending $8,000, $10,000 a year, $6,000 or $8,000 a year because it's capped at $2,000.

When you're talking about finally doing something that both parties have fought for for decades and have failed to get across the legislative goal line, which is allowing Medicare to negotiate for lower drug costs, that is a true victory for American seniors in particular, the cost of insulin for seniors.

BREAM: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: And the president wants to extend that to kids. Republicans have blocked him.

So, our plan is to implement these very much in the spirit of helping households deal with these price pressures.

BREAM: Yeah, and those are important because those are critical cases. All of us would be cheering for people to have a better situation there. But let's talk about our polling numbers.

Has inflation caused you financial hardship over the last six months? Seventy-eight percent of Americans say yes. That is up 3 percent from the last time that you were here.

People feel like things are getting worse for them. They blame the president, 65 percent disapprove of how he's doing on inflation.

And even Cardi B is weighing in. She is a big supporter of Democrats and progressive policies. She's frustrated.

Here's what she had to say this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARDI B, MUSICIAN: I was looking at some areas. The way that the prices soar up. Like, how are people surviving? I want to know.

I -- you know, like, my family and my friends, they're so grateful to have me. But it's just like, yo, what happens to people that don't have a me?

All these promises are being made, but living is unbearable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: She doesn't think promises are being kept. So, what do you say to people who don't have a Cardi B in their lives?

BERNSTEIN: Well, I think that when it comes to promises made, promises kept, this president and this White House really have a very strong track record.

And when it comes to the polling that you mentioned, I think you have to there also get under the hood -- I was reading the very article on foxnews.com this morning that reported on that poll. It had the following sentence: There are some small but clear improvements in Biden's ratings.

Now, small but clear -- and I think that very much stems from some of the things we've been talking about already, Shannon. The fact that over the past two months, inflation has been effectively flat. Now, I'm talking about July and August.

BREAM: It's still a 40-year high.

BERNSTEIN: Exactly. So, just in those two months, we've had flat prices. But over the year, inflation continues to be uncomfortably high. And that's why we are trying to implement all the plans that we've talked about.

But, you know, when you think about investing in the future, empowering workers, building it here in America, providing American households with some breathing room, building more resilient supply chains, rewarding work not wealth through our tax code, those are not parts of an imaginary blueprint. Those are parts of a blueprint that is actively in play.

This is legislation that has somehow, by this president, this Congress, been moved. I'm talking, of course, about Inflation Reduction Act, bipartisan infrastructure law, the CHIPS Act, standing up a domestic semiconductor industry, standing up a domestic electric vehicle industry, reducing cost of prescription drugs, of health care, of energy -- all of those would be on the chopping block if Democrats are not able to continue to implement those plans.

And speaking to Cardi B and anyone else experiencing these pressures, which we know are real --

BREAM: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- these plans are in play and they are working.

BREAM: Okay. So, let's talk about the future. We know consumers are frustrated. They are feeling the pain of this. So, let's look forward because it looks like employers are worried as well.

These are some of the headlines. I'm looking at employer freezes, hiring, all these things.

"The Business Insider" on Friday talks about the FedEx boss warning of a worldwide recession closing stores, freezing hiring, trimming hours, parking planes.

"Financial Times", Goldman Sachs plans to cut jobs, because they say deal- making is drying up. Amazon shrinks workforce by 100,000, hiring freezes, layoffs.

"Above the Law" says hiring freezes and stealth layoffs hit top 50 big law firms.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

BREAM: So, what are they seeing that the White House doesn't, or are you guys just not willing to acknowledge it?

BERNSTEIN: First of all, we're very willing to acknowledge any -- we're very much a fact-based economics team when it comes to all of this.

But I have to give you facts on the other side of that coin, OK?

Since this president got here, almost 10 million jobs created, an historical record. And unemployment rate close to a 50-year low, 3.7 percent. There are 18 states out there with unemployment at 3 percent or below.

These are historical numbers. It's about the tightest labor market on record.

Now, at the same time, we've been talking about inflationary pressure. We know that the Federal Reserve is in a hiking cycle to try to dampen those inflationary pressures, as they should be. We know that's cooling off an overheated housing market.

So, these are all dynamics that are in play. But in the background is one of the strongest labor markets Americans have ever experienced. And that is such a critical tail wind given all the other pressures you've just taken us through.

And both are true. You have to keep both things in your head at the same time. There are challenges in this economy and you have an administration with a president overseeing economic team that is undertaking these challenges with a rigor that I, as a guy who's, you know, got aging gray hair over here, have never seen such an aggressive pushback on these kinds of, again, challenges.

BREAM: With wages being outpaced by inflation, prices, the cost of borrowing money up, Fed rate (ph) again this week -- folks are cheering for you at the White House to get this right.

BERNSTEIN: Thank you. Thanks for hearing (ph) me, Shannon.

BREAM: Thank you for your time.

BERNSTEIN: My pleasure.

BREAM: Good to see you.

All right. Coming up next, fed up Republican governors are sending migrants to Democratic-led cities and facing questions over whether that's actually permitted by law. And a judge rejects the Justice Department bid to restart its review of classified documents seized from Mar-a-Lago. Our legal panel weighs in next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BREAM: Democrats have called it a cruel stunt. Republican Governors Greg Abbott and Ron DeSantis sending undocumented migrants from border states to cities run by Democrats. Republicans say Democrats will now see what southern communities are grappling with as border encounters reach record numbers. Democrats say might not even be legal. They want the Justice Department to step in.

So, joining us now two legal experts who can help us break it down. Former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, Andrew McCarthy, and George Washington University Law Professor Jonathan Turley. Both Fox News contributors.

Welcome, gentlemen. Good to have both of you with us.

ANDREW MCCARTHY, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Good morning.

JONATHAN TURLEY, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Thank you.

BREAM: OK, I want to start with California Governor Newsom, who is calling on the DOJ potentially to step in here. He says that people were giving false representations about where they were being going, transported, that kind of thing, what would be waiting for them. He says, I urge U.S. DOJ to investigate whether the alleged fraudulent inducement would support charges of kidnapping under relevant state laws which could serve as a predicate offense for change - charges under RICO.

Jonathan, you've written about this.

TURLEY: Yes, it's absurd. They suggest that this can be kidnapping. There might have been confusion. There might have been misrepresentation for some. But these are consensual trips and they have records of the consent. You have Hillary Clinton saying that this is literally human trafficking, which is legally nonsense. I mean human trafficking is designed to prevent sexual and labor exploitation. These are people who have been released into the country by the Biden administration and have accepted trips to cities like Chicago, New York, in this case Martha's Vineyard. They have a right to go on those trips and the states have a right to facilitate them.

BREAM: So, here is what President Biden has had to say about what's happening at the federal and state level.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have a process in place to manage migrants at the border. We're working to make sure it's safe and ordinarily and humane.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: So, Andy, I remember the Supreme Court, just a few years ago, having this fight with the state of Arizona where it wanted to take on immigration policy and it's very much the fed's place to do it. And the president says they've got it under control. So, what of these actions by these southern Republican governors?

MCCARTHY: Well, they absolutely do not have it under control. And what the governors are doing is exactly the same thing that the Democratic administration has been doing, they've actually been moving people throughout the country as well.

We have a statute that says that when people come into the United States illegally, they shall be detained until their proceedings are concluded. We're ignoring that statute. The Biden administration is cutting enforcement on administration. They're cutting the budget on detention. To single this out, given the botch that they've made of immigration policy, is just staggering.

BREAM: OK, I want to turn to what's going on in Trump world because there's plenty of legal activity there.

Andy, let me start with you on this because a slew of subpoenas going out suggesting there are still plenty of active investigations going on. What say you?

MCCARTHY: It's clear that they're ramping up investigative activity. They're looking at what they call the fake electors scheme. They're looking at tampering with the actual election equipment. There's a number of grand jury subpoenas that have gone to people who were in President Trump's main circle. But I think the immediate problem, at least from president - former President Trump's perspective is the investigation of Mar-a-Lago and the seizures there. At this point I think that's the one that's ramping up with a bullet.

BREAM: Yes, and, Judge Aileen Cannon, who has denied the DOJ's request to be able to use some of these documents that they want to, absent going through first the vetting of the special master that's been appointed. She says, appointment of a special master to conduct a review of the seized materials is fully consonant with the foregoing principles and with the need to ensure at least the appearance of fairness and integrity under unprecedented circumstances.

Jonathan, she's taken a lot of heat. People will say this is a Trump appointed judge. They say that she is going to get overturned on the appellate level. What do you think?

TURLEY: Well, it's interesting that the Department of Justice filed a motion pending appeal. They didn't ask to stay the entire appointment of the special master, but instead asked only for access to about 100 classified documents. That's a smart move. In fact, I think it may be the first smart move I've seen from the Justice Department, you know, in hunting and litigation. The word is, you know, aim small, miss small. This is your best bet on those 100 documents.

But the special master may be already making progress on that. He's expected to prioritize those hundred documents. There's a very good chance that they will be released or given access to the Department of Justice. It will be interesting to see if the administration goes further to try to litigate these other thousands of documents that are going to be reviewed by this special master. I mean the court noted that the Department of Justice itself admitted that it may have taken attorney/client material, admitted that its taint (ph) teams had made some mistakes. And so the special master's going to drill down on that, but probably after he looks at those classified documents.

BREAM: So we stand by now to see what happens with the appeal. It could end up at the U.S. Supreme Court, which is the next thing I want to talk about.

Justice Kagan is out there discussing those who have been criticizing the court for being too political and what happens when courts take certain actions. Here's what she said this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELENA KAGAN, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: When people see them as extensions of the political process, when people see them as trying just to impose personal preferences on a society, irrespective of the law, that's when there's a problem.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: Andy, what do you make of all these now very public conversations about the integrity of the courts, pushing back against decisions they've made and whether you agree or disagree going to the heart of what the justices are doing?

MCCARTHY: Well, I think to Justice Kagan's point, if you're going to worry about the public perception of the court, you're doing politics instead of law. And the reason that we insulate the judiciary from politics is so they can try to decide what the case is based on the law, whether that's a popular result or an unpopular result. So I think the minute that you start to take the position that the court needs to worry about the public perception of its decisions, unless what the court -- unless what the public thinks is that the court is making the decisions because of politics rather than because of what the law says, then I think you get away from what the business of judging is. They just can't worry about public perception and what the media is going to say. They have to try to figure out what the right answer is and give it. That's why we insulate them from politics.

BREAM: So, "The Wall Street Journal" editorial board says this about Justice Kagan. Says, no doubt she's frustrated that she isn't in the majority in many of the most significant cases, but now she knows how Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas felt for decades. They never attacked the legitimacy of the courts.

Professor.

TURLEY: Well, I think that's a good point. I just spoke to the 10th Circuit Judicial Conference. And at the conference also speaking was Chief Justice Roberts and Gorsuch. And Chief Justice Roberts really took offense at these attacks of the integrity of the court.

We're having a crisis of faith. But I think that's being fueled by a crisis of leadership. These attacks on the integrity of not just the court but on your own colleagues that are implied in these remarks.

BREAM: All right, Andrew McCarthy, Jonathan Turley, we appreciate your time. Thank you so much. We'll see you again soon.

TURKEY: Thank you.

MCCARTHY: Thank you.

BREAM: Up next, we're going to bring in our Sunday group on our latest Fox polls about the issues voters say will motivate them the most in November.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (September 11, 2022): The border is secure. We have a secure border in that that is the priority for any nation including ours and our administration.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's open not closed. The border's open. Everybody we (INAUDIBLE) the border is open. It's open because we entered. We come in. Free. No problem.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And in -- but it's open for you to come illegally, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Illegally, yes, illegally. That's true (ph).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: Vice President Kamala Harris saying the administration has the border under control. And you saw there a contrasting view from a migrant who arrived outside the vice president's home in D.C. this week.

Time now for our Sunday group.

"USA Today" White House correspondent Francesca Chamber, former chief of staff to Mitch McConnell, Josh Holmes, Fox News political analyst Juan Williams, and Fox News correspondent Gillian Turner.

Great to see you all.

JOSH HOLMES, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO MITCH MCCONNELL AND "RUTHLESS" PODCAST CO-HOST: Good to see you.

BREAM: It feels a little - like we said, a little bit like "Family Feud" in here. I don't know what's going to happen.

FRANCESCA CHAMBERS, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, "USA TODAY": The girls are going to win.

BREAM: OK. Francesca, I'll start with you.

Obviously, there's a very different view about what's going on. We have, and we'll dive into this, the southern border state governors, many of them red states, sending people to here in D.C., Martha's Vineyard, New York and elsewhere. Looks like a lot of political gamesmanship.

CHAMBERS: The Biden administration's response has been that it's a political stunt and that it's inhumane. And the White House is seeking to use this as an opportunity to talk about what Democrats would like to do to reform the legal immigration system, including creating a pathway to citizenship for groups of immigrants, including farm workers and essential workers and whatnot.

But the Biden administration is facing tough questioning about what they're doing to help cities where the migrants are arriving and also where they're being bussed, like Washington, D.C., and also El Paso. And the Biden administration is also facing some of that criticism from D.C.'s mayor, who has said that when it comes to the Republican governors, that she's upset with them for - for - for bringing the migrants here, but also that the federal response has been lacking. She wants to see more help from FEMA.

BREAM: It's been interesting to see Democrats and Republicans alike say, especially those in places like Texas, we need help. And when people show up at their doorstep, then, we really need help from the feds to get something done. But not a lot of Americans think they're doing well, or the president is on this. His job performance on immigration, he has got 32 percent approval but, Gillian, 60 percent disapproval on this issue. It's not one they want to talk about.

GILLIAN TURNER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Part of the reason I think, Shannon, we see those numbers is because the border is not just a story about numbers and data crunching, though Border Patrol sources have already told our border teams that they are on track to surpass 2 million unvetted illegal immigrant crossings this fiscal year with weeks left to go.

It's also - the story provides a very visual narrative, right? We saw recently Karine Jean Pierre say to Peter Doocy that people don't just walk across the southern border. And this year - excuse me, this week, right, on cue, we got a very visual reminder from the Justice Department about exactly how people are getting here. There was this human smuggling sting. We saw photo after photo they released of thousands of migrants being rounded up, stuffed in suit cases, stuffed inside emptied out water tankers and then piled up on these flatbed trucks before getting driven across the southern border. So there is a constant visual reminder here about what exactly is happening at the border.

BREAM: Yes.

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: And I think part of that is the human story.

BREAM: Yes.

WILLIAMS: I think there's - I think it's important, you know, just to get beyond the politics for a second. The politics, it seems to me, is, you use these people, you make them into political props. And you say, well, wait a second, the Republican governors are upset. But wait, these people just walked thousands of miles. They are fleeing violence, political oppression and poverty. And each of us, as Americans, understands, you know what, we have family history. We understand where we came from. And to see them used as props is offensive.

And you stop and think about, well, wait a second, the Republican governors have a point. They're on the border states in some cases and their communities are being burdened by the presence of this surge of people. The people are coming oftentimes -- the people who were shipped, for example, they came legally. They came seeking some kind of legal step to --

BREAM: Seeking asylum.

WILLIAMS: Asylum that would consider their standing. But the reality is, the federal government gives added aid to those states. Doesn't give it to Martha's Vineyard. If the federal government had said, OK, well, fine, you want to start playing games and stunts like this, we'll pull our funding. Boy, I think you're going to see a different tune.

BREAM: Well, OK. So, two of these governors who are at the -- in the middle of this, Governor DeSantis says about the letter to the DOJ that Gavin Newsom sent, Governor Newsom, he said, I think your hair gel is interfering with your brain function. Governor Newsom tweets back, clearly your struggling, distracted and busy playing politics with people's lives. He says, all you want is attention. Let's have a debate. I'll bring my hair gel. You bring your hair spray. Name the time before election day. By the way, I am volunteering right now to moderate said debate.

But, Josh, there are real people in the middle of this.

HOLMES: Oh, no question. I mean, I think, Gavin Newsom is desperately trying to get everybody's attention to say, hey, I can run for president here in 2024. I think that - that's what that's about.

Let me just address the humanitarian aspect that I think that Juan addressed here. I don't remember a lot of concern out of progressives or this administration when the Biden administration, during the campaign, essentially sent an invitation to people that they would be welcomed at the border and provided with American assistance. What we know is that that's caused a two year humanitarian crisis at the border. It has caused real suffering, human trafficking, opioids. All of those problems, that is the problem. Whether we send them to Martha's Vineyard once they're here or not, that's not the humanitarian crisis that's happening here. It's that tens of thousands of people that are living in squalor are being trafficked by coyotes to the border themselves, some in just horrible, reprehensible things done to women and children. That's the real problem here. Whether or not DeSantis decides to send them to Martha's Vineyard, which, by the way, I thought was a great idea because progressives everywhere in this administration they don't have problem - they're very generous at spending everybody else's resources, right? But when it comes to their own, boy, their favorite vacation destination, now we got a problem, right? So I think that's basically the story here.

WILLIAMS: But I think that's a stunt. And let me just respond to Josh here. I think that you look back at specifically things like separating children from their moms, and that was under a Republican administration, that's not humane.

BREAM: That's happened under Democrats too.

WILLIAMS: And that's not good, OK.

But the reality is that America and the Congress specifically needs to solve this problem.

BREAM: Yes, and - and -

WILLIAMS: And for 20 years we've known the solution.

HOLMES: But what -

BREAM: OK, we -

WILLIAMS: Bump up security.

BREAM: Yes.

WILLIAMS: Do more in terms of the -

BREAM: We've got to -

WILLIAMS: The system, the judicial system, to deal with these people.

BREAM: We've got to live it here. Yes. But with Republicans in control of the House, the White House and the Senate and Democrats with that same makeup have not gotten it done. So, there's plenty of blame to go around.

WILLIAMS: Yes, but neither has - but both sides prefers to play politic.

BREAM: They do. OK.

HOLMES: And one party says there is no border security problem. So.

BREAM: OK. Panel, we're going to take a little break here.

Up next, though, a debate between Dr. Oz and John Fetterman could be one of the most watched 2022 midterm events, but is it actually going to happen? We're going to read the tea leaves, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LT. GOV. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA), PENNSYLVANIA SENATE NOMINEE: Do you think Dr. Oz thinks about working people?

CROWD: No.

FETTERMAN: How many of you have two gigantic ten (ph) mansions?

DR. MEHMET OZ (R), PENNSYLVANIA SENATE NOMINEE: He had a non-profit and he also has some properties he owns, but he's got tax liens. He ignores them. He said they feel through the cracks.

But it gets worse than this. You know, the hypocrisy runs deep.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: Pennsylvania Senate candidates John Fetterman and Dr. Mehmet Oz taking another round of pot shot at each other this week ahead of a potential debate next month.

We are back now with the panel.

Who thinks the debate's happening?

WILLIAMS: Oh, yes, that's a -

BREAM: All - all - maybe.

HOLMES: I don't know.

BREAM: Yes, no.

WILLIAMS: The Fetterman debate?

HOLMES: I hope so.

BREAM: Josh, what do you - what do you think?

Well, listen, "The Philadelphia Inquirer: is on that's saying out there, communication is part of being a senator, perfectly reasonable to ask how well he's able to listen, speak, focus and understand.

So, do you think, Josh, it happens?

HOLMES: Yes, well, I really hope so. And I know that Dr. Oz really hopes so. There's been a ton of trepidation by Fetterman and Fetterman's camp, for obvious reasons, right? He's been very, very, shall we say, lack of communicative on the campaign trail. Everything is fairly well scripted. It's sort of in (INAUDIBLE). It seems like he's having difficulty navigating the issues. And so it's hard to imagine in four weeks how that changes, which could be a - it seems like a big liability for him.

BREAM: And it's well after early voting starts, Juan.

WILLIAMS: I don't think there's any doubt there's going to be a debate. Fetterman has agreed to have a debate in late October.

BREAM: OK.

WILLIAMS: I think that - and, a little bit, this is silly season. People have strokes. And, guess what, people recover from strokes. And it takes them time to recover from strokes. I think a celebrity doctor should know this, right?

BREAM: But most of them aren't running for Senate.

WILLIAMS: No, but you don't - it's -- he's not running to be president. He's not running for an executive function like a governor. He's running to be part of a legislative body. The GOP problem is that Oz is under performing and Fetterman - Fetterman could say, look, even if I have halting speech, I'll do better than a guy who lives in New Jersey. Just - just go at it.

BREAM: That - that seems to be working for him so far.

WILLIAMS: Yes. Yes.

BREAM: OK, let's talk more broadly about the midterms because our new Fox News polling shows a shift, congressional vote preference. Back in July, Republicans held the advantage here but now, Gillian, it has shifted to the Democrats.

TURNER: I will say that the president himself is getting a boost this week. It's a surprising boost, first off, given the fact that the fundamental sort of voter building blocks in this election cycle are going to be the economy and then the political reality that most Americans blame the president for not relieving historic inflation. He's getting a boost this week from these I would describe them as sort of external factors. Things that he doesn't really have -- play a large hand in. The fact that former President Trump's back in the headline warring with the DOJ has a lot of people ginned up. The SCOTUS ruling overturning Roe v. Wade. The president had very little hand in -- perhaps none in either of these issues. He is getting a definite boost from them this week.

BREAM: OK, so he's not getting a boost in our polling when we ask about his approve/disapprove. But also this, has the Biden administration been competent and effective in managing government? Now, 38 percent say yes, 52 percent, Francesca, say no. And that is a flip from a year ago when he was leading on that issue.

CHAMBERS: Well, over the past two months he has seen a roughly 5 percent bounce in the polling, but he still is under water. That's under - that is under 50 percent in - in -- in all of the polling. But Democrats are feeling better about the midterm elections at this point. And the White House has been putting President Biden out on - at official events to talk about things like infrastructure. And we're going to see a shift, though, soon. Next week he'll be going to Florida to talk about the midterm elections. It is supposed to be a speech about Rick Scott's agenda. Of course, Marco Rubio on the ballot in that state also. And Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. So, it's really an opportunity for President Biden to test his messaging for 2024 also in DeSantis and former President Donald Trump's home state.

BREAM: Yes, it is.

OK, so one of the big issues that we talked about with Senator Graham is this 15 week federal ban he's proposing on abortion. This is an issue that has not polled well for Republicans and they are - Juan is shaking his head. But this is like a gift to the Democrats. You should be excited about this. "Politico" magazine, Rick Lowry, writes in defense of it, he says, if the bill ever gets to a floor vote, it could force Senate Democrats to declare themselves against a late term abortion ban that will strike much of the public as reasonable.

Juan, you heard the senator say today that - and, listen, we know that's probably part of the plan, make them vote on this.

WILLIAMS: Right. But I think the way that it -- the senator defends it is to say, oh, it's a reasonable amount. It's 15 weeks. I think the idea is that that's the start, a national ban. And, clearly, the people who are opposed to abortion would like to it be a complete ban in this country.

BREAM: In some states it is.

WILLIAMS: What we've seen - I'm sorry?

BREAM: In some states it is.

WILLIAMS: Right. If we - what we've seen in West Virginia, Indiana, even excluding rape, incest and the like.

So what we've got to see is that the abortion issue has now become a leading issue for American women in this election. We've seen a tremendous surge in registration among women since the Dobbs decision was announced. You've seen the vote in Kansas, a red state, saying, you know what, we don't want abortion just taken off the books.

I think that you're seeing people run away from it, scrub their website, scrub their previous statements in which they were taking on abortion rights.

BREAM: Others - others are embracing it. And "The New York Times" is - is criticizing those who are now bringing their wives out onto the campaign trail, the Republicans, because of this issue. They say cue the emergence of gauzy campaign ads starring the wives of Republican Senate hopefuls getting personal about their hubbies, several recently spotted -- spotlighted by Politico. Gag. That's the word they use.

Josh, quick final word from you.

HOLMES: Yes, I mean, I think that characterization is pretty disgusting. It's sort of relevant whose spouse, man or woman, is on the - on the campaign trail, right? But as to this issue itself, look, Senator Graham's position, not unreasonable at all. And Democrats' position way out of the main stream. The problem is, it's a little bit like your friend coming over and asking how your grandma is three weeks after the funeral. It is not the right time for this, right?

BREAM: OK. We're going to leave it there. Panel, thank you very much. We will see you again next Sunday.

That is it for today. I'm Shannon Bream. Thank you for joining me. Have a great week. We will see you next FOX NEWS SUNDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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