This is a rush transcript from "The Story with Martha MacCallum," October 2, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARTHA MACCALLUM, ANCHOR: Good evening, John. Thanks. So, Senator Jeff Flake has been on a bit of a media tour and ask every step of the way how he is going to vote. Did he tip his hand with this comment?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JEFF FLAKE, R-ARIZ.: The interaction with the members were sharp and partisan and that concerns me. And I tell myself, you give a little leeway because of what he has been through. But, on the other hand, we can't have this on the court. We simply can't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: That put Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell in a bit of a test spot tonight. Essentially walking a tightrope with the so-called gang of three as he tries to hold his vote together. Senator Flake, Collins, and Murkowski is just one wavers in their support. The question is will they all go with that person?
Good evening, everybody. I'm Martha MacCallum. And this continues to be the lead story tonight with brand-new developments this evening.
Later, when Jeff Flake was pressed about those remarks, he walked it back a bit. Telling the Atlantic, "I didn't say that. I wasn't referring to Judge Kavanaugh." Implying that he was criticizing the overall process.
Brit Hume here in a moment on that, and the New York Times coverage of the so-called a bar fight and the ice throwing as the reporting on this story pushes the norms of good journalism.
But first, Fox News chief national correspondent Ed Henry with the very new developments on all of this tonight good evening, Ed.
ED HENRY, FOX NEWS: Martha, great to see you. Breaking tonight, Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell is now telling Senators in both parties, expect a report from the FBI very soon. All 100 Senators will get a copy. Have time to review it, but then, he is steaming ahead with an up or down vote he says this week.
And that may be because of what we've just learned moments ago, that this FBI report could be delivered to the White House as soon as tomorrow, that from our colleague John Roberts. Dr. Ford's legal team has just fired off a letter to the FBI demanding that they talk to the agency.
But sources are telling us she and Kavanaugh may not be interviewed because they've already given hours of testimony. Senate Democratic leader Chuck Schumer who opposed Kavanaugh even before any of these allegations came out, complained today about this moving too fast. Claimed his side was blocked from a call with the White House counsel about the scope of the FBI probe. Republicans say that's false.
He also raised eyebrows by saying, "If Democrats take back the majority he'll look at raising the threshold for Supreme Court nominations back to 60 votes. When remember, it was Harry Reid who lowered it to 51.
Schumer, knows moderate Democrats are now on the griddle. Heidi Heitkamp, North Dakota now trailing her Republican opponent one poll by 10 points in North Dakota. A poll by the conservative Judicial Crisis Network found 56 percent of North Dakotans want Kavanaugh confirmed. While in West Virginia, Democrat Joe Manchin has to deal with the fact that the same conservative poll found 58 percent of voters in his state want a yes vote on Kavanaugh.
But, two key moderate Republicans, Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski who haven't run into one another on an elevator as reporters swarm them today are not tipping their hands. That's why Jeff Flakes vote is so critical. He did say today he understands why someone who thinks they've been falsely accused would lash out.
But then, he said it was a mistake for Kavanaugh to get so combative and that troubles him because he said the Supreme Court is one of the last institutions Americans have faith in. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FLAKE: I was very troubled by the tone of the -- of the remarks. The initial defense that Judge Kavanaugh gave was something like I told my wife, I hoped that I would sound that indignant if I were -- if I felt that I was unjustly -- you know, maligned. But then it went on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: But, if the FBI finds nothing new, remember, what Flake's said Friday morning, "Our system of justice affords a presumption of innocence of the accused, absent corroborating evidence. That is what binds us," he said, "to the rule of law. While some may argue a different standard should apply regarding the Senate's advice and consent. I believe that the constitution provisions of fairness and due process apply as well, I will vote." Remember Flake, said then to confirm Judge Kavanaugh.
So, if the FBI, Martha, finds no corroborating evidence for any of these allegations, it will be a remarkable flip-flop for Flake to suddenly suggest the presumption of innocence is less important. Martha.
MACCALLUM: Good point. Ed, thank you very much. Here now with more, Brit Hume, Fox News senior political analyst. Brit, good evening to you.
BRIT HUME, FOX NEWS: Hi, Martha.
MACCALLUM: It sort of feels like we've -- you know, gone along rot for a ride with Jeff Flake on his every thought process as he has worked through all of this, he's been speaking out quite a bit in recent days. Do you think he's showing his cards?
HUME: I don't think he's moved at all, Martha. I think he's back exactly where he was. He committed to vote for this nomination pending the FBI investigation. I think that's where he is now. I -- look, if he's troubled, as he says he is by the nominees conduct in that hearing the other day. In which he said he would get he cut him some slack on anyway. He might want to look at his record as 12 years -- of 12 years as a judge on the bench.
He probably has, in fact. And I'm sure he would agree with that there have been no criticism of his judicial temperament as an actual judge.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
HUME: Rather than a nominee under withering fire for vile crimes and being called evil.
MACCALLUM: But, what do you think about the fact that -- you know, there's a lot of criticism of Brett Kavanaugh for becoming too partisan in his remarks.
Hillary Clinton is now speaking out of it. It seems like the goalposts are moving to take a look more at the temperament than the original thing that Brett Kavanaugh was accused of. And here's what she said. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: For anyone who believes there's such a thing as a judicial temperament and that we want judges particularly those on our highest court to approach issues, approach plaintiffs and defendants with a sense of fairness, that there's a lot to be concerned about.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Brit.
HUME: Well, yes, that's the new talking point, isn't it? Because it appears that the Blasey Ford allegations are receding. The Swetnick allegations appear to almost totally collapsed, the Ramirez allegations remain utterly unverified. And so, here we are with something additional.
And you know, think of it this way. That was a sequence of events. The nomination was made, the Democrats came out almost unanimously against it immediately before any hearings, before any inquiries of any kind.
Then, during the course of the hearings that his record as a judge which you would think would be the most important thing when almost unremarked upon. No questions about it, no criticisms about it, none of that to speak of, almost nothing.
Then, after the hearings were over, these unverified allegations leaked out. Not to mention, of course, the fact as I mentioned earlier that he'd been called evil by at least one Democrat on the Judiciary Committee -- three of whom, by the way.
Also said, that the burden of proof was on him. And when he reacted in anger to all this, they said, "Ah, you don't have proper judicial temperament."
MACCALLUM: Yes.
HUME: I mean, it -- you know, you look at it that way, you almost want to laugh at it.
MACCALLUM: Yes, and I would imagine that if he sat there quietly taking it all, they would have said that he wasn't defending himself.
HUME: Yes, bloodless. Exactly.
MACCALLUM: And that, yes. That he wasn't -- you know, passionate real human being.
HUME: Unconvincing, (INAUDIBLE), yes, saw it robotic. Right.
MACCALLUM: I want to get your thoughts on this from McConnell. Mitch McConnell saying this about the New York Times story about Brett Kavanaugh possibly getting into a bar fight once in the 1980s. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SENATE MAJORITY LEADER MITCH MCCONNELL, R-KY.: Last night, the New York Times unleashed this major story. Get this, Judge Kavanaugh may have been accused of throwing some ice across a college bar in the mid-1980s. Talk about a bombshell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: I mean, Brit --
HUME: Well, it's so insignificant. And so -- and if it were to say all of it, were truly got into a fight you threw some ice at somebody in the 1980s when he was in college. Is that disqualifying? Please, not to mention the fact that The Times had to put out an editor's note later in the day or a statement by its P.R. representative that one of the people whose bylines is on that story is a woman named Emily Bazelon.
She is a liberal activist, she's up at Yale and she came out on virtually the day that the Kavanaugh nomination was announced on Twitter and said that he must be resisted because he'd be a fifth vote to turn the Supreme Court hard to the right.
So, she was a committed anti-Kavanaugh partisan. And here she is with writing stories for the New York Times about his nomination. The Times later said they see, we think we should have actually had one of the reporters do that, but there we are.
MACCALLUM: There is that. Good idea. Brit, thank you. Great to see you tonight as always.
HUME: You bet, Martha. You bet, thank you.
MACCALLUM: So, sources telling Fox News that the new FBI report could be finished as soon as tomorrow.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: A lot is going to depend on what comes back from the FBI in terms of their additional number seven investigation. But, I think that Judge Kavanaugh is doing very well right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Joining me now in an exclusive interview is someone who actually worked on one of those vettings of Judge Kavanaugh, personally. Kristi Remington has known Judge Kavanaugh for more than 20 years was involved in his fifth background investigation when he was appointed to the D.C. Circuit Court. Kristi, thank you very much for being here tonight.
You know, what do you make of this timeframe in terms of what they had to do, they -- we know that they spoke with Deborah Ramirez at length and Mark Judge at length. Does it make sense to you that it could possibly wrap up as soon as tomorrow?
KRISTI REMINGTON, PARTNER AT WEST FRONT STRATEGIES LLC: Certainly, he, as many people have said, he's been through six full-field background investigations. So, those investigations generally build on the previous one. And as the Senate had asked, it was this one would be very limited in scope.
So, I can understand why it wouldn't take very long and if the FBI has many investigators that they can send out.
MACCALLUM: I just want a bit of a quote from a Dr. Ford's legal team to the FBI today because they are upset that they have not been contacted in the course of this supplemental investigation. They say, "It's inconceivable that the FBI could conduct a thorough investigation of Dr. Ford's allegations without interviewing her, Judge Kavanaugh, or the witnesses that we have identified in our letters to you. Your thoughts on that?
REMINGTON: So, both Judge Kavanaugh and Dr. Ford testified extensively before the Senate under oath. So, I can understand why the FBI wouldn't feel the need to go back out to them. They had access to that testimony, presumably.
MACCALLUM: So, a lot of what we're seeing in the interim in terms of new information that's kind of flooding the market here, includes a lot of -- you know, sort of really wild charges from a number of people that he went to high school or college with. We're also getting some handwritten information about Beach Week, we're back to Beach Week in 1983.
And I just want to put this up on the screen. This is a note that reportedly he wrote -- Brett Kavanaugh wrote. But it says, it's signed by Bart. I don't know if that was a nickname. But it says, it would -- and is sort of informing all of his friends about the plan for Beach Week and he's outlining whatever one needs to bring and all of this stuff.
And he says, "We need to be careful because we don't want to get kicked out. P.S. it would probably be a good idea on Saturday, the 18th to warn the neighbors that were loud, obnoxious drunks with prolific pukers among us. Advise them to go about 30 miles and then it drifts off. Is this relevant in any way to you?
REMINGTON: Normally, we draw a line when in these FBI investigations at the -- at their 18th birthday. And I think, at least, in judicial selection, what is most relevant to -- at least, in the Bush administration and the people who are reviewing the backgrounds of candidates is what they did as an adult.
MACCALLUM: Right.
REMINGTON: And how they've acted as an adult? What they've done as a lawyer? And in this case, what they've done as a judge?
MACCALLUM: I mean, there's a lot of focus on proving that he's a sloppy drunk, is what we've heard a lot in the last 24 hours. Is that part of the original background checks that were done on him looking into alcohol behavior, those sorts of things?
REMINGTON: Certainly, that is a standard question in every background investigation. They asked about alcohol use and drug use going back to your 18th birthday.
MACCALLUM: Kristi, thank you very much. Good to see you tonight.
REMINGTON: Sure, thank you.
MACCALLUM: So, this is a Fox News Alert: We have just learned that a letter suspected of containing poison ricin may have been meant to be sent to President Trump. New details after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: Three separate envelopes suspected of containing ricin which is an extremely deadly poison were intercepted. And they were addressed to Secretary of Defense Mattis, top Navy Admiral John Richardson, and even President Trump himself. Trace Gallagher live in our West Coast Newsroom with the very latest on this tonight. Hi, Trace!
TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS: Hi, Martha! The Secret Service is now confirming the last letter was addressed to President Trump but did not make it into the White House or near the White House. It was received and detected at a federal mail sorting facility yesterday but the Secret Service will not tell us at least yet which facility that was. The letter did contain the very same substance as two letters sent to the Pentagon yesterday and those letters tested positive for ricin.
As you noted the first letters were addressed to Defense Secretary James Madison and Admiral John Richardson. He is the Chief of Naval Operations. They were intercepted at a mail screening facility in the Pentagon compound but the envelopes did not enter the main Pentagon building. Tonight that mail facility remains under quarantine and there is still no word yet if all three letters are connected but they are being examined by FBI forensic teams.
If you don't know, ricin is a naturally occurring substance that's found in castor beans but it takes a deliberate and precise act to turn them into biological weapons. It can either be used in the form of a powder, a pellet, a mist, or acid and it can be inhaled, injected, or ingested. Experts say within 36 to 48 hours -- 48 hours it'll begin to shut down major organs. There is no antidote but you should know it's not always fatal and of course, children are more at risk than adults.
Remember, in 2013 letters testing positive for ricin were addressed to a Mississippi Senator, a Mississippi Judge, and President Obama. All three envelopes were intercepted and the man who sent that letter is now in prison. And of course shortly after 9/11, letters containing anthrax were mailed to the offices of two senators and some media outlets, those threats also intercepted. As we find out more about this sorting facility that intercepted the letter intended for President Trump, we'll get back to you. Martha?
MACCALLUM: Trace, thank you very much. So also tonight we are just five short weeks now from the midterm elections and the fate of a few deep red state Senate Democrats could hinge on how they vote on Judge Kavanaugh. It's a rock in a hard place. They either defy their liberal base or they alienate the Republican majority in their state. One of those on the bubble is North Dakota Senator Heidi Heitkamp who will not commit at this point either way. She is now down six points to her GOP challenger Kevin Cramer.
And in Indiana Senator Joe Donnelly who now wants to see the FBI report before he decides how he's going to vote. He has a two-point lead. He originally said he would vote no, then he said he would wait and see the FBI report and the numbers as well, no doubt. In Missouri critical swing vote Claire McCaskill is the virtual tie -- in a virtual tie with her Republican challenger Josh Hawley.
And joining me now Guy Benson, Co-Host of "BENSON & HARF" in Fox News Radio and Fox News Contributor, Robert Zimmerman DNC Committee Member and Democratic Strategist. It's good to have all of you here.
ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Good to be with you.
MACCALLUM: Robert, let me start with you. What would you be advising Joe Donnelly at this point and Heidi Heitkamp?
ZIMMERMAN: To vote for the interests of their state and represent their state, and that's what they're doing. I mean Claire McCaskill came out against Brett Kavanaugh because his decisions gave a clear path for more special interest unreported money into the political process. Jon Tester from Montana opposed Judge Kavanaugh because he was concerned about privacy issues.
MACCALLUM: Yes, but you're talking about people who have already told us. I'm talking about Donnelly and Heitkamp who have not decided.
ZIMMERMAN: They have to -- they have to watch the FBI report and see what it says. They've got a look at his decisions and how it impacts their state. But the bottom line to the entire discussion is, this is not going to be the deciding factor in these states. The reason in these red states, Democrats are within the margin of error across the board is because of Donald Trump. The fact that according to the Fox News poll he is running at 30 or what, 35 percent believe he cares about people like them, and The Wall Street Journal poll showed that 53 percent including majority of Republicans want a check and balance on the President.
MACCALLUM: So you're telling -- you are telling Heitkamp and Donnelly that they should vote no.
ZIMMERMAN: I'm telling hard Karen Donnelly, look at his decisions. Look at what best -- serves their best interests of their state and cast a vote accordingly. And quite frankly, at the end of the day, that's --
MACCALLUM: So if they vote yes, are you OK with that?
ZIMMERMAN: I respect their decision. But the point is, that's not going to decide this election politically. Donald Trump and his number as his numbers keep sinking and his credibility keeps falling, and his policy to keep failing, that's what's keeping them in the game.
MACCALLUM: Sticking to the midterms here, guy. The President who does have some pretty good political instincts at times believes that this could be a real problem for these candidates if they don't vote yes.
GUY BENSON, FOX NEWS: Certainly. So if you're Claire McCaskill, she was always going to vote no on Judge Kavanaugh. She was a no on Neil Gorsuch, she is a Liberal Democrat, far out-of-step I think with the majority of her state which went heavily for President Trump. She's going to try to squeak through here. I think this is a big problem for her and she knows it, but she's a committed liberal so she's going to vote no.
MACCALLUM: Let me pause you for one second and bring up this Remington poll because it says, has the Supreme Court Confirmation process for Brett Kavanaugh made you more likely to vote for Claire McCaskill or less. 42 percent of those said more likely, 49 percent said less likely.
BENSON: Right. So she actually was pretty candid a few weeks ago and said this is a no-win political situation for me because of the dynamic that you talked about, alienating the left or turning off a lot of the more conservative voters of that state. But if you're Joe Manchin or you're Heidi Heitkamp, there are polls coming out of those states that have Kavanaugh after the hearing at plus 30, plus 35.
I think unless something really significant comes out of the FBI investigation, you're going to see one or both of them vote yes --
ZIMMERMAN: But before the FBI investigation even was completed, let's remember, support for Judge Kavanaugh have dropped us such a record low. He's the most unpopular nominee since Judge Bork.
BENSON: Not on these states.
ZIMMERMAN: let me really also make the point in many in these states amongst independents and women, important swing votes, they are not only walking away from Judge Kavanaugh and opposed to his nomination --
BENSON: No, they're not.
ZIMMERMAN: They are walking away from Donald Trump and what he represents. Look, I am more --
MACCALLUM: But I hear you --
ZIMMERMAN: Let me finish. Let me finish.
MACCALLUM: We're talking -- we're talking very specific midterm politics here.
ZIMMERMAN: I know we are. And I'm talking -- I'm talking very specific states.
MACCALLUM: And Guy makes a great point because you're talking about a national poll on Kavanaugh and he's saying that in these states it will be politically dangerous for North Carolina --
ZIMMERMAN: No Martha, let me finish my point. You see Democrats --
MACCALLUM: -- or I'm sorry, in North Dakota or West Virginia.
ZIMMERMAN: Let me finish my point. We're talking about Republican states where Democrats now look like they're going to pick up new seats like in Nevada, like in Tennessee and Arizona. So the judicial -- now I'm opposed to Judge Kavanaugh's confirmation, morally, principally, and for the sake of our court, but for these states Judge Kavanaugh is not the deciding factor. Donald Trump and his failing standings in the poll and has failed policies, that is what's giving -- that that's what's giving these Democrats a boost because the country wants a check and balance and these states show they want to check and balance on the Trump administration.
BENSON: In these red states, if these Democratic Senators come out and refuse to confirm a qualified judge after the FBI investigation is over, it is going to be a serious problem. I've seen internal polls for Joe Manchin who's polling fairly comfortably ahead. If he votes no on Kavanaugh, it becomes a competitive race. He's aware of these dynamics. I think barring a surprise in the next few days, you'll get a couple Democrats voting for Kavanaugh.
ZIMMERMAN: Well, I think quite to the contrary.
MACCALLUM: You've got some huge decisions to make in the coming days.
ZIMMERMAN: Federal Republican senators -- '
MACCALLUM: It's going to be fascinating to watch how they come down.
ZIMMERMAN: Federal Republicans senators --
MACCALLUM: I mean, it could be that you get Republicans who vote no and you get enough Democrats who vote yes and it could swing votes.
ZIMMERMAN: Well, I think Martha, if Republicans vote no, it just dies, the nomination ends.
MACCALLUM: We'll see.
ZIMMERMAN: OK.
MACCALLUM: Thanks, guys. A trade war underway and now a Chinese warship that is coming dangerously close to one of ours in the South China Sea as cat-and-mouse escalates into what General Jack Keane calls a collision course with China. He's here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're looking at China and other countries and we're straightening out some of these horrible deals that stole our wealth, stole our jobs, stole so much from us. Actually in many ways stole our dignity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Fresh off of what was widely seen as a win renegotiating the NAFTA deal, the president appears to be making China the next target accusing the communist superpower of meddling in our elections, manipulating our currency, and stealing intellectual property. Well, today, that tension escalated once again when a Chinese warship came within 50 yards -- look at this -- of a U.S. warship in the disputed waters of the South China Sea.
General Jack Keane, Fox News Senior Strategic Analysts and Chairman of the Institute for the Study of war. General, welcome. Good to have you with us. What goes through your mind when you look at that image of those two ships?
GEN. JACK KEANE (RET.), FOX NEWS SENIOR STRATEGIC ANALYST: Well, I think it's symptomatic of a real challenge that the United States is facing. I mean, pun intended we're on a collision course with China. Certainly this incident there, given the nearness of it, the danger of it, something like that could escalate where our captain felt necessary to fire a warning shot, they'd fire back, next thing you know, we're using bigger weapons because one of our ships has been hit. So that's the concern that we have about something like that.
But the larger issue, it was identified in the Trump team's national security strategy and national defense strategy when I think they set the current strategic framework very accurately and described that has a return to big power competition with China and Russia and specifically identified China as the long-term strategic threat to the United States national interest and to the security of the American people.
And the reality is, China is conducting something they described as unrestricted warfare. And it's a doctrine that they have imposed on themselves and it gives them, in their minds, is their means to use anything that's available to them to gain influence over adversary countries. All the means available short of war. So economic warfare that should have--
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: They could say the same thing about President Trump, that he views it the same way, that you can use the economic levers and the military levers all of the same time?
KEANE: Yes, but what we're not doing what China is doing. They are conducting massive cyber information campaigns to all the countries in the region. And to a certain extent, the United States but much more significant in the region.
Where they are undermining the government, disrupting civil societies, they are actually buying up newspapers so they can gain influence.
One of the countries they are doing this rather significantly is far away as Australia. It's not exactly a country that is tangential to China but it's in the region and they want influence.
The most rapid military buildup in the world today is being done not by the United States and the Trump defense budget, which we all applaud, but by China. Rebuilding their ground forces, the maritime forces are at parity with us now in the Pacific and they are going to l go right past us in capability.
Deep water ports in Pakistan and also in Djibouti, why, influence the Middle East from Djibouti, influence the Indian Ocean from Pakistan. They have put in writing they want to dominate the Asia-Pacific in a near term, and in 20 years be the preeminent global power replacing the United States. That is the direction of China and that's why I say we are on a collision course with them.
MACCALLUM: Important and scary. I just have about 10 seconds. But Pompeo is going to go back and meet with Kim Jong-un. Quick thought on that.
KEANE: Good. Public diplomacy, the president says, he's in love. Never heard anything like that in my life by the president of the United States. But obviously the public diplomacy is positive.
But listen, Martha, they have not turned over one single ballistic missile or one single nuclear weapon or even provided us the inventory of all of the above and the additional sites that are there supporting those activities. That is what Pompeo wants.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: General, thank you, as always. Great to see you. Thanks for being with us tonight.
Coming up next, Hillary Clinton going back to going after the deplorables again. So, well, what didn't work last time worked now for Democrats?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: He has a view of America that is incredibly constrictive and he talks to that America, he talks to them all the time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: To that America, he talks to them. Tucker Carlson joins us, he is there in New York City, on that, and also the lessons for today in "To Kill a Mockingbird."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: He has a view of America that is incredibly constrictive. And he talks to that America. He talks to them all the time. And it by no means the majority, as we know, but it is a very hard-core, who are responding to him and supporting him for a variety of reasons. Whatever they might be. Economic reasons, Supreme Court reasons, or some of these other more troubling biases and prejudices.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: They're just awful. They are in a basket of deplorables. Hillary Clinton back at it again, repeating some of her favorite themes from 2016.
Joining me now, Tucker Carlson, host of Tucker Carlson Tonight, what a good name of the show, and the author of the book "Ship of Fools: How a Selfish Ruling Class is Bringing America to the Brink of Revolution."
I looked up at "Ship of Fools" today, it's originally Plato--
TUCKER CARLSON, FOX NEWS: Yes.
MACCALLUM: -- but it's also a movie.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And a Grateful Dead song.
MACCALLUM: So which one inspired you to name it -- and a Grateful Dead song. yes, exactly right.
CARLSON: Yes. So the first in the third, Plato and Jerry Garcia together seemed a good combo. I wrote it because of moments like that. She's not attacking the president so much as she is attacking his voters. And the explanation is Trump won because it's a bad country, they're bigots because they supported Trump.
Now that's fantasy, like the Russia explanation, but more than that, and more upsetting is that nobody, -- by the way, this includes some of the Republican leadership, has thought to why this happened. And of course it happened because the people in charge on Election Day in 2016 made a bunch of bad decisions and voters are mad about it.
They have not learned from this experience at all and so the country becomes more divided as the elites refused to respond to voters, it becomes more volatile, and it becomes more prime for the next thing which could be even scarier in my opinion.
MACCALLUM: Is there any hope in your book that this can -- you know, this is why she can find some way to end?
CARLSON: Look, I'm not a social scientist or a philosopher. I am a talk show host. My job is to diagnose what's happening. But I believe in democracy. Very few people where I live in Washington still believe in it.
And I think that if you respond to voters, you don't have to precisely follow the orders of the majority but if people are telling you over decades, for example, we think should have control of our borders, or don't sign trade deals where we are obviously getting ripped off, you need to listen to them and if you don't, they'll punish you.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: Well, it's interesting because like Trevor Noah was positive about the president's trade deal, the New York Times wrote good things about the president's trade deal, so, you know, there are moments where people sort of--
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: There are!
MACCALLUM: They don't like him but I like--
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: For the last two years should have -- yes, exactly right.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
CARLSON: I mean, to make everything about Trump the man, that's hardly the point. The point is that the country, the middle class, which is the core of the country, was shrinking and dying and nobody cared. And that's what this was about. You have to address that.
MACCALLUM: So I want to ask you a little bit about the Brett Kavanaugh situation, which I think a lot of people have been so deeply disturbed by when they watch this process.
CARLSON: Yes.
MACCALLUM: You know, to a great extent on all sides. And I thought and I was reminded of "To kill a Mockingbird." Because I think that the history of people being falsely accused--
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Exactly.
MACCALLUM: -- and how wrong that is in this country -- and I'm not making a judgment about this case -- but that is a deep history, that's -- so there is a reason all kids read "To Kill a Mockingbird."
And Rich Lowry spoke about it in an editorial and he said, "The story in contemporary terms goes off the rails. Atticus Finch didn't hash tag, believe all women. He didn't take an accusation at face value. He defended an alleged rapist vigorously and unremittingly, making use of every other opportunity provided to him by the norms of the Anglo-America system of justice. He did it despite considerable social pressure to simply believe the accuser."
CARLSON: Exactly.
MACCALLUM: Who we all know is, you know, Mayella Ewell, a young woman, poor white women, who claimed that he had abused her.
CARLSON: I've asked this question repeatedly on my show to people I've talking to about this, is there a time that you can think of an American history when people accused of sexual abuse, assault, rape, might have benefited, and justice benefited from a presumption of innocence and due process in all the norms of the justice system that we inherited really from Rome.
Can you think of any? Did any come to mind? Like, what the NAACP founded in response to this? I think it was. How quickly we forget. Look, this moment will all be gone. People running things will be gone.
Our grandchildren will still be here, one hopes, living in a country where people are not punished until they have been proved to have committed a crime. Like that's the whole reason it's worth living here. Let's not -- let's not throw that away.
MACCALLUM: Yes. And jumping to a conclusion before you have that, and you know, some would say that's why they thought the FBI investigation was necessary, and I know you may feel differently about that, but that is what we're all -- I think of the Duke Lacrosse team--
CARLSON: Yes.
MACCALLUM: -- which I know you covered in depth, you know, you have to take a breath. You have to look at these situations before you pass judgment.
MACCALLUM: Well, sure. I mean, the idea that some people are more believable than others because of their DNA is grotesque. It's a perversion of justice, justice needs to be blind. We assess the facts.
MACCALLUM: Absolutely. Whether it's a man or a woman.
CARLSON: Of course.
MACCALLUM: You need to look at the situation clearly. Tucker, thank you very much.
CARLSON: Martha, thank you.
MACCALLUM: The book is called "Ship of Fools." Great to have you in New York--
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: It feels like fish out of water, but we love having you.
CARLSON: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: So coming up in the wake of Kavanaugh confirmation chaos, many are asking if due processes is under attack. We were just talking about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, if we throw evidence and law out the door, I mean, what kind of side are we left with? A scary world to live in, in my opinion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Pete Hegseth talked to students on a Midwest college campus, and he joins us with what they are saying about this when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: So the Brett Kavanaugh allegations are sparking a national debate over evidence and corroboration and due process as we have been talking about tonight.
Here is President Trump earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's a very scary time for young men in America, when you can be guilty of something that you may not be guilty of. This is a very, very -- this is a very difficult time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So we sent Fox & Friends co-host Pete Hegseth to the College of the Ozarks to talk to college students about the future of all of this.
Pete, good evening to you. And it's always interesting to be in a college campus and hear what they are talking about.
PETE HEGSETH, FOX NEWS: Yes, very interesting time to be talking to college students in light of a national debate that we are having.
We are at the College of the Ozarks, great kids behind us, also known as hard work U, this is a college where every kid weaves debt free because they work while they are on campus. Also probably the most patriotic campus I've seen other than our service academies.
They love our veterans and our military. But I had a chance to talk to some of the students and ask them as a college student right now, in light of what you are seeing with the Brett Kavanaugh conversation, how do you feel about these allegations and the conversation being had? Martha, they had some pretty blunt answers for us. Here's some of the students had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The most important lesson I've taken away from all of us is that the things that I say and do today can affect my life in decades and even my career.
In some ways, you can't -- you can't control what cameras are being pointed at you when. That's why you have to make sure that you are always a true person not just when you think somebody else is looking.
LAUREN PRESLEY, STUDENT, COLLEGE OF OZARKS: He's innocent until proven guilty. I feel like people are mad at him because he is making -- you know, protecting himself, and trying to defend himself, and I feel like the left is really, you know, fighting on that.
I just think it's a very difficult time to be a man and I think it's a difficult time to be a woman as well. As a female who is interested in going to the political realm, I think it's scary, if you have that R behind your name, I don't know what, you know, accusations people are going to come up with.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can say anything about anybody and if it's taken as fact, well, I mean, we're all in trouble. I mean, if we throw evidence and law out the door, I mean, what kind of side are we left with? It's scary world to live in, in my opinion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEGSETH: Kids committed to the idea that you should be innocent until proven guilty and the rule of law has to matter in this country, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Yes, it's really interesting to hear what they are saying, I thought the first young man who said, you know, that the biggest lesson for him was that whatever he does now could reflect deep into his future, and we've talked a lot about social media and how different it is.
You know, we are looking at hand scrawled notes from Brett Kavanaugh that are under scrutiny for him when he was 17 years old.
HEGSETH: Yes.
MACCALLUM: It looks like the kids there are very aware that these things follow you throughout life.
HEGSETH: The yearbook of yesterday is the Instagram account of today. They are very aware of that fact. Conduct is going to matter. So we are excited to be here.
And as you know, Martha, tomorrow morning we are going to be live all morning Fox & Friends, of course, this campus, College of the Ozarks, after the Colin Kaepernick ad from Nike, Just Do It, they said no more Nike gear for us. They said they took a stand, we stand for the anthem. So a special campus, a lot of patriotism here, and we're going to talk to them even more tomorrow morning on Fox & Friends.
MACCALLUM: Interesting. It's tough to pry the Nike away from college kids. So it's interesting they are taking such a strong stand. Thank you, Pete.
(CROSSTALK)
HEGSETH: They've taken a lot of blowback, Martha, but we'll see.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
HEGSETH: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: We'll be watching. Thanks a lot. Good to see you tonight.
So coming up, '80s icon Molly Ringwald is speaking out about scenes from her hit movies like this one. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've got Caroline in the bedroom right now passed out cold, I could violate her 10 different ways if I wanted to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So how did that sound now? Kat Timpf and Tom Shillue, coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: She was a star of some of the biggest cult movies of the 1980s, but today in the Me Too era, actress Molly Ringwald is kind of changing her perspective on some of the scenes in her classic hits like "The Breakfast Club" and "16 Candles."
She said to NPR, "As everyone says, and I do believe is true that times were different and what was acceptable then is definitely not acceptable now, and nor should it have been then. I feel very differently about the things -- that John Hughes movies she was talking about -- now."
Here with me now, Kat Timpf and Tom Shillue, both are Fox News contributors. And Kat had to brush up on some of her 80s movies today to keep up with it. But you know, when you look at these, any a sort of time capsule kind of movie you look back at it and they are going to be things that you wouldn't see in today's movies.
But let's give everybody here and everybody at home a little bit of a memory refresher on some of the scenes that Molly Ringwald is referring to. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I could (muted) anytime I want. I've got Caroline in the bedroom right now passed out cold, I could violate her 10 different ways if I wanted to.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was an accident.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're (muted).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sue me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you a tease?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's a tease?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm sure why he does forget it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're a tease and you know that all girls are teases.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: All right.
TOM SHILLUE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: "Breakfast Club," that was my favorite one. Favorite of all the club.
MACCALLUM: Really? That was your favorite?
SHILLUE: Yes. I love it. Always wanted to. You know, I never got to go to detention because I was such a good kid but I wanted to after that.
MACCALLUM: These are bad kids were in detention and that's what happened in there.
SHILLUE: Yes.
MACCALLUM: What do you think?
SHILLUE: I don't understand Molly Ringwald. She said it's a different time, the times are different. Wasn't acceptable now was then but it shouldn't have been then -- well, it was then, so it should have been. Everything was fine.
You go back, it's not just the 80s, you can't stop there. I mean, go to "Star Trek"," you know, Kirk was sexually assaulting people from other planets. You go to "Casablanca," you know what happened in "Casablanca?" You know, Captain Renault he was -- he was trading sex for exit visas. You remember that, right.
MACCALLUM: That kind of thing happened.
SHILLUE: It happened in Casablanca.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: That kind of thing happens, it happens all over the place.
SHILLUE: But you can't enjoy anything if you go by today's standards, which is why maybe something is wrong with the way we are thinking these days.
MACCALLUM: Kat, what do you think?
KAT TIMPF, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I think that some of the things that these characters said and did may have been problematic. However, what would a movie be like if none of these characters ever said or did anything problematic? Would it just be like a bunch of people sitting in a circle and like talking about how bad micro aggressions are, and then two hours of that and the credits roll?
I don't understand. People are not going to the--
MACCALLUM: Yes.
TIMPF: These are fake characters doing fake bad things. I think that if you really spending your time worrying what a fake person did in a fake scene, then things are probably not too bad.
MACCALLUM: Yes, I mean, this is my point -- I mean, think about "Caddyshack," think about "Animal House," movies are not -- they're supposed to reflect sort of a little bit of a version of real life. If they reflected real life and everyone was perfect and behave perfectly, going to the movies would be quite boring, wouldn't it?
SHILLUE: And we didn't behave that way, that's why it's a movie. "Revenge of the Nerds." OK. I was one of the nerds. We watched "Revenge of the Nerds" but then we didn't really get our revenge. Our revenge was just watching the movie and fantasizing about it.
TIMPF: Yes. Nice people just talking about how nice they are and being nice with no conflict, great movie.
MACCALLUM: And the point of that first one, you know, he is the jerk.
TIMPF: Right.
MACCALLUM: He is the jerky guy who is saying that really obnoxious thing about violating this girl. So that's the point, the lesson of "16 Candles" I haven't re-watched it in a while but as I remember is that he is the jerk.
SHILLUE: Yes.
MACCALLUM: That's the point. How can he be a jerk if he is not a jerk in the movie, Tom?
SHILLUE: Well, there is one scene in the movie when I guess the good guy, the romantic guy that everybody loves, I forgot his name but he is the hero, he is the one that falls in love with Molly Ringwald, right, because she--
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: Isn't it Andrew McCarthy?
SHILLUE: So we're mixing them up. That's "Pretty in Pink."
MACCALLUM: You're right. That one is my favorite.
SHILLUE: Yes, yes. He, and I think he turns to be a nice guy. But he is the rich guy but they don't expect him to be the nice guy. But in "16 Candles" there is a saying that this problematic because the good looking guy ends up having his drunk girlfriend he gives them to the other dude and he says, here, have a good time, like, you know, with the girl.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: Because he's a boorish, its boorish behavior--
SHILLUE: Yes.
MACCALLUM: -- which is what the movie is depicting.
TIMPF: Right, absolutely. No one is saying be like this guy. No one is saying that.
MACCALLUM: All right. Let's take a quick look at something now completely different which is the Vladimir Putin calendar, you can get in your orders for Christmas if you sign up now.
SHILLUE: Yes.
MACCALLUM: I'm not -- what is he in here? Is this a hot tub?
TIMPF: It's a plunge pool.
SHILLUE: It's a hot tub for what?
MACCALLUM: He says with great authority. Of course it's a plunge pool, everyone knows that.
SHILLUE: Yes.
MACCALLUM: I mean, here he is cuddling up with a jaguar.
TIMPF: I don't know.
MACCALLUM: I'm going to say, a leopard, a jaguar, I know I'm going to get e-mails about the difference.
SHILLUE: Yes.
MACCALLUM: And there he is with a fish.
SHILLUE: Catch up with his bare hands.
MACCALLUM: Wait a -- I mean, he has a lot of self-confidence.
TIMPF: Absolutely. I feel like being a dictator of a country must give you some serious self-confidence and you start to think, hey, maybe I'm in control of all of these people and this whole entire country, in complete control, not because that's the way it is but because they really want me to be in control, because they really like me. Apparently, also because they really like me without a shirt on. A lot of no shirts in these photos.
MACCALLUM: I know. He is quite play to themselves. So, you know, we have a democracy and a democratically elected president but here's what it would look like if we had a Donald Trump calendar, so everybody can see if they want to sign up.
SHILLUE: Nice swing. Where is that, any shirtless on a horse?
MACCALLUM: No, no, no. Thanks to you guys. Good to see you. Nice trip back to the '80s.
That's December of the calendar because he has a red hat. That's our "Story" on this Tuesday night. We'll see you back here tomorrow night at seven. Tucker is up next.
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