Democratic lawmaker: Media, Democrats over-hyped Trump 'caving' and reopening government

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Democratic lawmaker: Media, Democrats over-hyped Trump 'caving' and reopening government

Focus on border wall funding as new shutdown deadline looms; reaction from Missouri Rep. Emanuel Cleaver.

This is a rush transcript from "Your World," January 28, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

NEIL CAVUTO, HOST: All right, you had a lot of news in that nearly hour-long press conference that first featured the treasury secretary, Steve Mnuchin, then Larry Kudlow, the economic adviser, at first talking about what we're going to do about Venezuela, $7 billion in assets that have now frozen to that country, affecting directly its state-run oil concern, Petroleos de Venezuela, all in an effort to get the president there, Nicolas Maduro, to just step down and allow Juan Guaido to take charge.

Now, that could prove easier said than done, because, obviously, Maduro has said that he wants to stay. He's got the military behind him. There are increasing signs that he might not.

But, of course, the news of the moment seems to be on the fears of yet another government shutdown if, in the next 18 days, the president, the White House and Democrats on Capitol Hill can't come to some agreement to avoid that, making it very, very clear that, unless whatever they cobble together includes funding for a wall -- it wasn't ironclad at $5.6 billion, $5.7 billion for a wall -- then we could be right back to where we started with a shutdown.

That one ran into 35 days and sliced a lot of growth off the economy. The CBO estimates that about $11 billion was lost as a result, $3 billion that will never come back. Of course, as Larry Kudlow pointed out, the CBO has been wrong on lots of things.

But what's the mood on Capitol Hill about avoiding just that?

Let's go to Peter Doocy right now, right there.

Peter, what are you hearing?

PETER DOOCY, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Neil, we have just received word that the conference committee of lawmakers from both parties in both chambers is going to meet for the first time to start negotiations about a possible border bill on Wednesday.

And the speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, has already sent a letter to Democratic colleagues where she writes in part: "Now, as we proceed with the negotiations on the best way to protect our borders and our values, we do so without holding federal employees hostage, and we do so with House and Senate Democratic unity. Many thanks to our House Democratic Caucus for remaining strong and unified. As I have said, our diversity is our strength and our unity is our power."

There is a lot of mystery about these negotiations, because Democrats wouldn't talk about how much of the $5.7 billion in border wall money they could stomach the entire time the government was closed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. STEVE SCALISE, R-LA., HOUSE MINORITY WHIP: Now the government's reopened. We have to have a real specific conversation about how much money they will support.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOOCY: Throughout the shutdown, Democratic leaders pledged zero dollars for a border wall they called medieval.

But among the Democratic rank and file, there are dozens of more open minds.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BEN MCADAMS, D-UTAH: So what I have tried to do is not draw any lines in the sand.

I want to vote to have border protection, to have border security, to reduce the flow of drugs and even illegal immigration.

Sure. I wouldn't rule out barriers in places where it's appropriate.

I think that's -- I think that's acceptable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOOCY: Now, there is some early Republican pressure on President Trump.

Senator Marco Rubio is warning the White House not to try to go around Congress and build a border wall with an emergency declaration if, two-and- a-half weeks from now, negotiations fall apart -- Neil.

CAVUTO: All right. Thank you very, very much, Peter Doocy.

Let's go back to John Roberts at the White House.

John, I know you don't know much about the wall and what goes into it.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: I'm joking.

But I did want to get your take on where we're going to be in 18 days. It sounds maybe right back to where we were.

JOHN ROBERTS, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Really. Well, you know what? I might not know much about the negotiations, but one thing is clear. I have no clue where we're going to be on February the 15th.

(LAUGHTER)

ROBERTS: It's possible that the president could declare an emergency and try to start building the wall. But that would almost certainly end up an immediate court case file in some district court in California.

The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals jurisdiction would likely enjoin the president, if history is any guide. And then he probably would have played his last card. But then we have the alternative to that is for the president to shut down the government again.

The Congressional Budget Office estimated that $3 billion was permanently lost as a result of the 35-day shutdown. Larry Kudlow was asked about that today, disputed the CBO figures.

But I asked him. I said, well, if you had this government shutdown, then you open it again, and then you shut it again, could that compound the economic impact? Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: Another shutdown, could that compound any economic effect or hardship effect on these federal employees?

LARRY KUDLOW, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL:  Yes, I just don't want to speculate on what-ifs. We've got a process laid out here. Let's see if it bears fruit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: And, again, Kudlow disputed the CBO's figures. The CBO was that $11 billion had been lost. A lot of that would snap back, but $3 billion were permanently lost.

As to whether or not the president would shut down the government again, Mick Mulvaney, the acting chief of staff, said yesterday it's possible that he might. Sarah Sanders today said it's not the preferred course of action.

Listen here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARAH SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president doesn't want to go through another shutdown. That's not the goal. The goal is border security and protecting the American people.

Ideally, Democrats would take these next three weeks to negotiate in good faith.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: And Sarah Sanders sent a warning to Democrats, saying, look, if you don't negotiate with the president, if you don't come up with some sort of compromise, you're going to end up at the end of this process with nothing.

Yesterday, I was filling in for Chris Wallace on "FOX News Sunday." One of our guests was West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin on the Democratic side.  He was the only Democrat to vote for the president's proposal last week in the Senate for $5.7 billion for a wall.

He told me yesterday that if the president were to go further on protections for DACA recipients -- and that would be a path to status or maybe even citizenship -- he might get more Democrats to sign on to his need for a border barrier.

I asked Sarah Sanders about it. Listen to this back and forth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: Why he doesn't believe that they deserve or should have a path to status.

SANDERS: Again, I'm not going to get into negotiating immigration reform up here. That's why we have the conference. That's why the president has asked that that take place over these three weeks.

Whether or not that happens during this time or after, the focus of this right now is border security. We'd like to see that happen. And the president would love to deal with the overall problem of illegal immigration, fixing a number of the loopholes that would prevent some of those things from happening, so that we can move forward with a system that actually works.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: And here's the other unknown too, Neil.

While there might be a lot of Democrats in the House and in the Senate who say, you know, I could see the need for a border barrier, as Joe Manchin has said and said again yesterday, Nancy Pelosi has said repeatedly no money for a wall.

And so far, she's been able to hold her caucus together. We will see if she can hold them together for another 18-and-a-half days -- Neil.

CAVUTO: Amazing.

For someone who doesn't seem to have any idea what's going on, you seem incredibly well-versed and detailed on all.

(LAUGHTER)

ROBERTS: I'm like -- I'm like that old -- I'm like that old 1950 sign.  Don't know much.

CAVUTO: Oh, we should all not know so much done.

John Roberts, thank you very much, my friend.

ROBERTS: You bet.

CAVUTO: All right, let's get the read from Wyoming Republican Senator GOP Conference Chair John Barrasso.

Senator, very good to have you. And thank you for your patience.

SEN. JOHN BARRASSO, R-WYO.: Thank you, Neil.

CAVUTO: Is it your sense that we risk another government shutdown?

BARRASSO: It's my sense we need to keep the government open, we need to secure the border, and we need to start dealing with our broken immigration system.

That's what I heard in Wyoming over the weekend. People said, happy to see the government open. Now it's time to secure the border.

CAVUTO: All right, but what if they don't do that? Would you advise against the president going to what we did last time?

BARRASSO: No, I wouldn't. But he certainly has the authority to do that, I believe. And I would hope that we could come to a solution over the next couple of weeks.

CAVUTO: But if we don't, if we don't.

The worry is from fellow Republicans, we're told that a lot of you, when you gathered in the Senate last week, and it was pinata time with the vice president and Mitch McConnell, that you were put in a position that was unwinnable. Would the president put you that back in that position, and would you fight against that?

BARRASSO: I know the president doesn't want to put us in that position.  We need to make sure that we can secure the border.

CAVUTO: But he did. He put you in it for 35 days.

Do you want to risk repeating that?

BARRASSO: I want to make sure that the government stays open.

I think shutdowns are always a loser, Neil, politically, as well as from a policy standpoint. Look, I'm one of the guys for the last seven years has co-sponsored legislation that said, end government shutdowns.

CAVUTO: Right.

BARRASSO: It's been bipartisan.

So, I think this is never a winning situation. It's always a loser. We need to keep the government open. We need to secure the border, and we need to start fixing our broken immigration system. The president, I believe, has been willing to compromise.

He came forward with a proposal which did just that. We have 30 members of the House who are Democrats who wrote a letter to the speaker that said, we want to vote on border security. I believe we're going to get that. And we're going to get a solution in the next three weeks.

CAVUTO: But, again, if they don't budge on that border or the amount of money to commit to it, and don't even offer the president a dime on that, I would imagine he will -- he will either declare an emergency or he will shut the government down, right?

BARRASSO: Well, it would be a complete failure on the part of Nancy Pelosi's leadership, a failure to lead her conference and what the government -- what the public wants. They want a solution. They want both sides to be contributing to this, both sides cooperating in a way that we find a solution to fund the government and secure the border.

We cannot fail to secure the border of this country. I know what she has said in terms of only $1 and being immoral. What is immoral, that we don't have a secure border at our southern border. And the president is committed to doing that. It's part of national security, Neil.

CAVUTO: All right.

You might be right on that, and you might be right to point out, I think, as you did, Senator, that, even among Democrats -- Steny Hoyer was one of them who doesn't seem to think that a wall is immoral, seems to think that it works on the Tijuana-San Diego border quite well, and is open even to the president as of last week giving a speech any day he wanted to on the House floor.

Do you think that there is enough division among Democrats that they would effectively have to sort of overrule Nancy Pelosi?

BARRASSO: Well, that may come to that.

And I believe that there is that sort of division. You have a number of new -- newly elected Democrats from some basically swing districts. And Nancy Pelosi will be the minority leader again if she continues to be obstructing the idea of national security.

And that's -- what the president is asking for is not all 2,000 miles of the border between the United States and Mexico. We have 700 miles of barrier right now. He's asking for 234 additional miles.

And, Neil, this is in an area where Border Patrol said, these are the 10 key spots where we need it most. That's all that he's asking for, which to me is very reasonable.

CAVUTO: All right.

BARRASSO: So, there are lots of things we can do to secure the border.  And a physical barrier is a big part of it. The president's right.

CAVUTO: All right.

But, again, to be clear, if the president forced the issue and said, darn it, I'm going to do it again, I'm going to shut this government down if I don't get that wall, you say that would be a mistake?

BARRASSO: Well, I think the president is going to make sure, number one, as commander in chief, that he secures the border of this nation.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: Well, the only way he could do that is by declaring an emergency.  That's about his only option.

BARRASSO: If he has to do that, the president will do what he needs to do to secure the border.

CAVUTO: All right.

BARRASSO: But I think it would be a dereliction of duty for the speaker of the House to not do what the American people have asked, which is to work together in a bipartisan way and find a solution to keep the government open and to secure the border.

CAVUTO: All right, Senator, thank you for taking the time. We do appreciate it.

BARRASSO: Thanks, Neil.

CAVUTO: All right, fair and balanced, now a read from Democratic Missouri Congressman Emanuel Cleaver.

Congressman, it seemed to be a possibility that, in 18 days, we could revisit this again. Do you think that Democrats should offer something when it comes to wall funding, maybe not $5.6 billion or $7 billion, but something?

REP. EMANUEL CLEAVER, D-MO.: I want to answer that question, because you asked it, but if I can preface it by saying, what will allow us to get through this very difficult period, the next three weeks, and come out on top for America, Democrats don't need to do celebrations in the end zone.

We don't -- I mean, I'm a good -- I know how to turn flips. I played football. I can come up with some little chants and cute little things.  And Republicans need to stop saying, Nancy -- as the senator did, Nancy Pelosi, it's on her and so forth.

What we need to do is just stop it. I mean, I don't think we need to say - - start calling the president a cave man and all this stuff, because what that does -- I mean, everybody involved here are human beings.

And what that does, the president starts saying, OK, I have got to be stronger and I got to be a little more resistant to whatever they want to do, because I don't want to be called a cave man.

CAVUTO: Right.

CLEAVER: And the Democrats are saying, well, I have got to respond to the president. He's threatening.

I mean, I think, we need to stop the threats from the president. We need to stop the end zone celebrations on our part.

Ideally...

CAVUTO: Do you think that's what Democrats did, they overreacted, they overhyped this, they sort of did end zone dance?

CLEAVER: Well, I think -- I hate to do this -- probably, you didn't do it, but the media has helped significantly.

I mean, if you look at all those New York newspapers, almost all of them on the day after the president's speech or talk about reopening the government, I mean, including newspapers that generally support him, like The Post, they were all talking about caving in and so forth.

I just don't think that's helpful in the long run, because, in the -- at the end of the day, everybody involved is a human being, and nobody likes to be pushed down into the murk and mud.

CAVUTO: No, I think you're right. And it does push people into a corner.

Now, many of your colleagues, sir -- I don't know how you feel about this - - have been open to the idea of a wall. They don't see it immoral, maybe not the full stretch or amount that the president wants.

But, in your gut, does it tell you that that would be the middle ground?  The president might not get everything he wants for a wall, but that there would be indeed some wall funding tucked into maybe an immigration package that would include DACA reform?

CLEAVER: Well, we all have voted on that before. I have.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: So, it's just to go back to the future, right?

CLEAVER: Yes, yes. Yes, to put it in movie terms.

Yes. One of the things that I think Jim Clyburn has continued to tell us to use -- and I think he's absolutely correct -- that we need to start talking about walls and virtual walls, where we can use all kinds of technology.

I mean, what's the point in becoming the most technologically advanced nation on the planet if we can't use it?

CAVUTO: Right.

CLEAVER: And there is technology, I have been told -- I'm going on the Homeland Security Committee -- I will know more about it.

But there's technology that can actually detect drugs inside automobiles crossing...

CAVUTO: Well, no, there are definitely a lot of options.

CLEAVER: Yes.

CAVUTO: And you're open to a wall.

As you were mentioning this, and we're showing on the bottom of our screen, sir, that the president, after an invite from Nancy Pelosi, has been invited to give his State of the Union address on February 5.

So that's on. How do you feel about that?

CLEAVER: Well, I will be there. I think I have a responsibility to be there.

I'm hoping that it -- that someone won't tell the president that we use this to launch attacks, because it will just keep this thing going. I think he ought to come in and deliver a speech on the state of the United States, and then -- and then be aspirational in a speech and talk about what we stand for and where we're going to go.

I'm going to sit there, as I have every single time we have had a State of the Union since I have been in Congress. And I know there are people who are going to boycott. I won't be one of them.

I do think that the president and the Democrats should have something that people in the country are proud of.

CAVUTO: That's well put.

CLEAVER: When the lights are off that night, everybody ought to feel pretty good. And they may disagree, but they feel pretty good about being an American.

CAVUTO: Yes.

I notice, when I go down to Washington every time, sir, I mean, when the cameras aren't around, you guys are slapping each other on the back, you're nice to each other.

And then it's like professional wrestling, not you, but it's all of a sudden scripted parts, and they're throwing chairs at each other.

It's weird.

CLEAVER: Yes, spitballs.

CAVUTO: Yes, that's it.

All right, Congressman, thank you very much. It's always a pleasure.

CLEAVER: Good to be with you.

CAVUTO: All right.

Well, we will see how that goes.

When the president delivers his State of the Union, will there be a chill in the House? I know this much. You don't have to wait until next week.  There's going to be a chill across this country. I'm talking a record chill -- right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, we are in for a bout a wicked cold weather. More than half the country by the end of the week will be experiencing below-zero temperatures, where you will have, for example, a common theme of minus-15 degrees. That's without the windchill factor.

Add the windchill factor in places like Chicago, on Wednesday, you're looking at minus-50 degrees. Yikes.

Oil watcher Phil Flynn following all of that and the crosscurrents in a market.

When you hear cold weather reports like that, obviously, it costs more to heat your home, and it costs more to keep a level heating when you have to up it when it's that cold outside. But what are we looking at here?

PHIL FLYNN, PRICE FUTURES GROUP: I think we're seeing a situation where we're going to see our bills this year a lot higher than they were a year ago, because a lot of what we pay for our heating bills throughout the season is how cold it is.

The last couple winters, come on, we have had a pretty easy. We have had a cold spell here, a snowstorm there, but we haven't had this type of sustained cold, Neil, like we're potentially going to have over the next couple of weeks.

So what does that mean? In your home, you're going to be turning up that thermostat. It's going to be working harder, because it's going to be harder to keep that house cold -- from getting too cold. So you're going to see a lot of that going on.

And so, over the period of a year, what that means is more dollars coming out of your wallet. Now, this year, of course, it could be even worse.  And the reason why that is, is because we have more geopolitical risk on the horizon, new sanctions just announced today on Venezuelan oil. That too could push up the price of oil.

And then, at the end of the day, that could cost you more in the long run as well.

CAVUTO: But it's a natural gas phenomena, too. A lot of folks heat their homes through that. And what are we looking at there?

FLYNN: You know, I think we're going to see prices over the season about 6 percent higher, more out of your pocket than we paid a year ago.

But, interestingly enough, we saw a weather forecast on Sunday night, some of the weather models that were predicting that we're going to see more of this beautiful cold weather through -- throughout the first week of February, backed off of those. And we could actually see a warm-up in February.

So, looking at the natural gas market today, Neil, it gave hope to people that are going to have to go through some of the most brutal temperatures they have ever experienced in their life.

CAVUTO: Incredible.

All right, thank you very, very much. Phil Flynn follows this very closely, both inside and outside. And he's outside, to prove the point.

By the way, we are just learning right now that the U.S. has formally filed fraud charges against the Chinese tech giant Huawei and a top executive, accusing the company, among other things, of stealing trade secrets.

Now, this is in the middle of top Chinese delegation officials arriving in the United States to continue trade talks. They had been separately urging the administration and the U.S. to go slowly here, that this could complicate matters.

If you don't think that these issues will directly relate and fight against one another, and maybe the prospect for a trade accord, Chinese authorities say you are naive.

But now the implications are that the slap on Huawei is on, and, right now, the response from China, well, we're waiting.

More after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROGER STONE, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER: I will tell the truth to Mr. Mueller. If I'm asked, I will tell the truth. I have told the truth consistently, even though some would say otherwise, but that -- they are incorrect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAVUTO: Talk about a big way to kick off a hot show.

That was the FOX News judicial analyst, the senior one here, on "Liberty File" on FOX Nation. And he gets a pretty big guest, Roger Stone, who more or less was saying, well, we could talk, right?

ANDREW NAPOLITANO, FOX NEWS JUDICIAL ANALYST: You know, he wavered a little bit when I pressed him about talking and talking.

"Do you have evidence against the president?"

"No, no, I don't, but I will tell them what I know -- what I know truthfully."

CAVUTO: Well, isn't that different than what he said at the Florida court steps, where, I love Donald Trump, blah, blah, blah?

NAPOLITANO: Yes.

You know, I don't think he wants to allow a wedge to be put between himself and the president.

CAVUTO: Right.

NAPOLITANO: But when the people prosecuting you want to talk to you, you would be crazy not to talk to them.

CAVUTO: OK.

Could you review for me? It just seemed the way they apprehended him was a little over the top.

NAPOLITANO: Wow, it was way over the top.

So there were 29 FBI agents in 17 vehicles, two of which were armored.  They not only had sidearms. They had what we call assault rifles, heavy- duty military-grade machine guns.

And there were two boats behind Stone's house, which abuts on a -- on a canal in Fort Lauderdale. And there was a helicopter hovering overhead.  So that's...

CAVUTO: What were they worried about, that he was going to be pulling an Usama bin Laden?

NAPOLITANO: Well, they -- it's funny you should mention Usama bin Laden, because you had 30 people -- I'm counting the helicopter pilot -- well, 33, and the pilots of the boats go after Roger Stone. Twelve SEALs went after Usama bin Laden.

(CROSSTALK)

NAPOLITANO: So you had more than twice as many to arrest of this person for a nonviolent crime, with no history of violence.

When asked by the judge, why such a show of force, they said, well, we had a search warrant for his house. And we were afraid at 6:00 in the morning, with everybody asleep, once he saw us, he would start destroying evidence.

They already had over a million, according to Stone, of his e-mails and text messages. But they wanted to take canceled checks and things like that in the house.

CAVUTO: And that was the genesis of the seven-count charges anyway, so they had that in place yet already.

NAPOLITANO: Yes. Yes. Yes.

CAVUTO: Now what happens?

NAPOLITANO: Well, he has an arraignment tomorrow before Judge Amy Berman Jackson, who is the same judge who presided over the Paul Manafort case in D.C., not the Manafort case in Arlington, Virginia.

CAVUTO: Right.

NAPOLITANO: In my opinion, the first thing that government will ask for is a gag order, because she granted, Judge Jackson granted a gag order in the Manafort case, and Manafort was not nearly all over the airwaves, the way Roger Stone has been in the past two days.

CAVUTO: So he wouldn't be able to do Judge Napolitano anymore?

NAPOLITANO: No, and he wouldn't be able -- I think the last interview he is going to give, I think, will be Sean Hannity tonight, because I believe that gag order will kick in tomorrow at 10:00.

CAVUTO: Well, you broke a lot of news, young man.

So let me ask you a little bit about if this were to go to trial. I know I'm leaping ahead here. When would it go to trial?

NAPOLITANO: Well, he said it's going to go to trial. I think that statement might have been intended for the president's consumption.

It would go to trial about a year from now, a year from now, when the country will be caught up in the Iowa caucuses and the New Hampshire primary, and nearly three years after Bob Mueller was appointed.

(CROSSTALK)

NAPOLITANO: So, Mueller has guaranteed himself and his team another year in office, because, by all the things that have to...

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: So, Mueller could -- we would not have a report out of Mueller by then?

NAPOLITANO: I doubt it.

CAVUTO: Wow.

NAPOLITANO: I doubt we're going to get a report from Mueller until the people he's indicted and needs to try have been tried. Why?

Because a lot of information comes out in cross-examination at trial, which you don't always anticipate. And Mueller and his team are going to want to have the benefit of that information.

CAVUTO: So, you're saying this is going to continue right through the next presidential cycle, something that dealt with the last presidential cycle?

NAPOLITANO: If Roger Stone plays the hardball that he told me he would play -- and he seems determined to do that -- the answer to your question is yes.

CAVUTO: Wow.

New hit show, breaking news left and right. Don't make it look so easy, Judge, all right?

NAPOLITANO: Thank you. Thank you, Professor Cavuto.

CAVUTO: Incredible.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: All right, another one that's incredible are these stiff penalties we're learning right now in Venezuela to make sure that the president, Maduro, resigns.

Here's the thing. He's not yet. What happens next?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, to the Venezuelan dictator, how do we get you to quit?  How about we start with $7 billion worth of sanctions on your state-owned oil utility, for starters?

That's one way they hope, the administration, that they can get him to step down and Juan Guaido to take over as the opposition leader, with full backing of the United States and, they hope, eventually the military.

That last part might be easier said than done.

To retired Lieutenant General Jerry Boykin, who joins us now.

General, what do you think of this move?

LT. GEN. JERRY BOYKIN (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Well, I think the sanctions are OK, because what it allows them to do is continue to sell their oil, but it goes into a blocked count.

The endgame of that is that Maduro and his cronies can't put that in their personal accounts, which I'm sure are growing at the moment. But I think that's OK.

But I think the next step has to be that we rally more of our allies. We have already got 21 different countries that have come to our side of this...

CAVUTO: Right.

BOYKIN: ... and have recognized Guaido. So I think that we have got to keep building this coalition to put pressure on him.

CAVUTO: General, it seems that whoever has the military with them has the presidency. And so far, Nicolas Maduro has that, at least among the top generals, the rank and file, not so much.

But one very popular figure, even though he's retired and out of the country, I understand, Colonel Jose Luis Silva, is the first high-ranking official to say, yes, it is time for Maduro to go and we have to rally around Guaido.

That's the kind of stuff you have to see to get this crisis settled, right?

BOYKIN: Well, that's right.

And also remember the lower-ranking people are get about $1.5 a month.

CAVUTO: Right.

BOYKIN: That's not enough for them to even buy a pack of cigarettes.

So what you have is you have a -- I think, a huge divide between the lower ranks, the mid-level officers and the upper ranks, and read that as the generals. And I think that what you're going to see is, you're going to see a split. And you are already seeing signs of unrest.

You're already seeing members of the military in the lower ranks and the mid-grade officers actually expressing very openly their displeasure with and their disgust with Maduro and what he's done to the country.

And I think that's going to get worse. And that's going to create a divide. And then it won't be long before either the higher ranks are going to flee the country, or they're going to jump ship and switch sides.

CAVUTO: Sometimes, it turns very violent, though. If all other options go, you start shooting people.

Do you think it comes to that?

BOYKIN: Well, I -- they're already shooting people, Neil.

CAVUTO: Yes, you're right.

BOYKIN: I mean, that's -- they have been doing that now for over a week.

And -- but I think that what is -- what is also going to happen here, though, is, I think that this violence is going to -- is actually going to turn on the average Venezuelan citizens.

They are -- there are reports of them actually killing each other for a kilo of rice.

CAVUTO: Incredible.

BOYKIN: So this hunger has a tendency to drive people to the point where everybody is the enemy if they have something that you want.

I think they're in a barter society now more than they are any kind of real economy. And that is -- that's setting the stage for some very bad things to happen here soon.

CAVUTO: I hope you're wrong on that, but, General, you're usually right on this stuff.

General Jerry Boykin joining us on the situation in Venezuela, going from bad to worse. We will get a follow-up on that tomorrow, when we look at this exhaustively.

Here's "The Five."
 
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