'Your World' on where Jan. 6 commission is heading

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Trump began to fear his own base: Kinzinger

Rep. Adam Kinzinger criticizes Trump and reasserts the legitimacy of the 2020 presidential election on ‘Your World.’

This is a rush transcript of "Your World with Neil Cavuto" on January 6, 2022. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: One year ago today, in this sacred place, democracy was attacked.

Even before the first ballot was cast, the former president was preemptively sowing doubt about the election results.

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Let's be clear. We must pass voting rights bills that are now before the Senate.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): The fact that violent criminals broke the law does not entitle Senate Democrats to break the Senate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: One year after the January 6 attack on the Capitol, remembering the events of that day, and where we go from here, President Biden hitting his predecessor hard during a speech in the nation's capital, and Donald Trump hitting back even harder.

Also living through that day. Excuse me. Our own Chad Pergram has a look back at what it was like then and the push to secure the Capitol.

Lawmakers, meanwhile, gathering for a moment of silence, including the January 6 commission member Liz Cheney and her dad, former Vice President Dick Cheney.

Coming up, we will talk to the only other Republican commission member, Illinois Congressman Adam Kinzinger, on where the commission is heading and what he makes of Republicans who say Democrats are trying to politicize the day.

Welcome, everybody. I'm Neil Cavuto. I apologize for my voice.

But we are on those developments today as we look back, and at the same time try to look forward.

First to Aishah Hasnie at the Capitol on what was a busy day of doing both -- Aishah.

AISHAH HASNIE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Neil. Good evening to you.

Get some water. I'm going to take it over from here.

It has been a very bizarre day on the Hill today, a deeply divided Capitol. We did not see, physically see GOP leadership at really any event commemorating the attack on the Capitol today. And they did put out statements, but they basically aren't here because they believe that Democrats are trying to politicize January 6 and those events.

In fact, the only Republicans we saw on the House floor today, Congresswoman Liz Cheney and her father, former Vice President Dick Cheney.

And listen to what he said afterwards about this whole thing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: What is your reaction to Republican leadership's handling of this, of the reaction to January 6?

DICK CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's not a leadership that resembles any of the folks I knew when I was here for 10 years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HASNIE: Guarantee that's going to get some play for a couple of days.

Republicans say Democrats are politicizing the events to lobby for their voting rights legislation. Leader Chuck Schumer wants to blow up the filibuster to bypass a GOP blockade on those bills. Even the president made sure to emphasize voting rights in his speech at the Capitol today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: From the brutality of Bloody Sunday on the Edmund Pettus Bridge came historic voting rights legislation.

So, now let us step up, write the next chapter in American history, where January 6 marks not the end of democracy, but the beginning of a renaissance of liberty and fair play.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HASNIE: President Biden also took aim at former President Trump, accusing him of trying to prevent the peaceful transfer of power.

Trump firing back minutes later, writing this: "America is a laughingstock of the world. And it's all because of the real insurrection, which took place on November 3, but this is an election year and MAGA Republicans should get elected and work with me to fix this horror that Joe Biden and the Democrats have brought us."

Meanwhile, the January 6 Committee is also marred in politics. It's been struggling big time to get Trump allies and aides to testify. And House Republican Conference Chairwoman Elise Stefanik took a shot at the committee yesterday, accusing Speaker Pelosi of not allowing the sergeant at arms to turn over documents Republicans really want to get their hands on.

Still, the committee plans on releasing a preliminary report at least by this summer. Crazy day on the Hill -- Neil.

CAVUTO: To put it mildly.

Aishah, thank you very, very much, Aishah Hasnie following those fast- moving developments.

So let's just say today was a very different day for our Chad Pergram than a year ago today. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHAD PERGRAM, FOX NEWS CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A mob has overtaken the process of trying to certify the Electoral College.

Security here at the United States Capitol has failed. This is the most significant breach of an American government institution since the Battle of Bladensburg August 24, 1814.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAVUTO: Chad with us right now.

Chad, it is remarkable. And I was remembering your coverage at the time. It was so surreal, because this was all playing out in real time. What did you think back then?

PERGRAM: It was like we were in a completely different place.

And there were two striking things about last January 6, the fact that it happened on the day Congress met to certify the Electoral College. That's one of the most important days when it comes to a peaceful transfer of power.

The second is, why did the riot take so long to quash? Capitol Police were outmanned that day, outplanned and out-frenzied. Police Lieutenant Ted Hopkins organized a strike force to retake the Capitol later that day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. TED HOPKINS, U.S. CAPITOL POLICE: When asked about what the one thing I remember generally, I say just how angry I was, like, the entire day.

Like, as I started hearing what was going on, I just got more and more angry. But any time somebody gets me talking about it, I get fired up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERGRAM: Officer Brian Sicknick died the day after the riot. He later laid in honor in the Capitol Rotunda. Sicknick's remains are interred at Arlington National Cemetery.

Officer Howie Liebengood committed suicide. Police are still reeling.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOPKINS: It's a personal loss. Obviously, it was a bad day in every sense of the word.

But losing Brian's been tough, and I get a little choked up every time I talk about it, because it's no exaggeration to say he was one of my best officers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERGRAM: Yogi Berra said, you can see a lot by watching.

Now, whenever there's a big vote in the House, I always watch the speaker's floor director. That can tell you if there's a problem with a vote. Keith Stern is the floor director for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. As soon as I saw Stern darting back and forth across the chamber, I knew there was trouble.

They cut the House video feed, but I could still hear the audio. They told members the mob was in the rotunda. They instructed members to don escape hoods. And that's when I described this as the worst attack on the Capitol since the British burned the building during the War of 1812 -- Neil.

CAVUTO: Chad, Jimmy Carter wrote in The New York Times today that he has only seen a worsening in extreme views on the left and right in that time. He fears this widening abyss it's going to continue and something like this could happen again.

Do you think that could happen again?

PERGRAM: There's a lot of people here on Capitol Hill who don't think that January 6 was just one day, that that was the end. There are some here who think that was the beginning.

There was already a pretty toxic atmosphere here on Capitol Hill. It's a chasm now between the sides. There are members who don't trust one another. And if you're trying to do legislation, if you don't trust people on the other side, you think that there are security risks on the other side -- remember, they put these metal detectors up for members to pass through to go into the House chamber.

I mean, that kind of is a physical reminder of just how bad the tension is here on Capitol Hill.

CAVUTO: Chad, thank you very, very much, Chad Pergram, on all of that.

Congressman Dan Kildee of Michigan with us now, the House Ways and Means Committee member. He's the congressional Progressive Caucus member as well.

Congressman, thank you for coming.

I will ask you the same I asked our Chad Pergram, and the warning, the fear from Jimmy Carter that this could happen again. What do you think?

REP. DAN KILDEE (D-MI): Well, I don't know that this specific event could happen again, but other acts of violence are certainly possible.

I say that because I don't believe the Capitol Police or the security personnel here will ever allow their guard to be let down the way it was on January 6. They simply did not heed the intelligence. I don't think that will happen again.

But President Carter makes an important point. There's a coarsening of political dialogue. Coarsening is a kind way to put it. There has been increased threats of violence. January 6 was an obvious manifestation of that. But I see it every day, every week. I hear it in the venom that is directed at me and at my staff on a daily basis from people who believe they somehow have the right to make those sorts of threats, as if it's somehow part of political speech.

It isn't. And, somehow, we have got to find a path toward some kind of reconciliation, some sort of common ground, so that our differences are something we celebrate in a society that allows for differences, rather than being the cause of division and hate.

CAVUTO: Nevertheless, politics always comes up, Congressman, even on a day like this.

Steve Scalise wondered aloud talking to Martha MacCallum in the last hour whether Democrats are overly politicizing this. I want you to react to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. STEVE SCALISE (R-LA): They want this to be politicized today. Most of America doesn't want it politicized. Most of America wants Washington focus on their problems, like inflation, high gas prices, the COVID resurgence, the border crisis, which President Biden and Speaker Pelosi continue to just let go unanswered, because they want every day to be about January 6.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAVUTO: What do you make of that, Congressman, that this is a valuable distraction for Democrats, who would rather not talk about all that other stuff?

KILDEE: Well, I consider Steve Scalise a friend. I hope we continue to be friends. But I disagree with that characterization.

What happened on January 6 is distinct and separate from all of the other issues that we debate. This was an attack on Democrats and Republicans in the Capitol of the United States. It wasn't just an attack on one party or another. It was an attack on all of us. We were all at risk.

We all could have suffered great harm. And, as a nation, we suffered that harm. And that should always be separate from the debates that we should have about our different perspectives on those big issues.

I don't think either the Democrats or the Republicans should conflate the two. And it's disappointing to hear that that's the perspective that Steve brings.

I like Steve. I consider him a friend. He understands a little bit about political violence himself, having been the victim of it.

CAVUTO: Indeed.

All right, Dan Kildee, thank you very, very much.

Again, a reminder, we're going to speak to Adam Kinzinger, the Republican, and one of only two Republicans, Liz Cheney the other, sitting on this January 6 commission, looking into what led up to this event and who's responsible for this event. We will be talking to him later in the hour.

In the meantime, getting the latest from the administration as it tries to grapple with Omicron cases that are now out of control, better than a million new ones posted for each of the last three days.

We're on it -- after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: Omicron is out of control. Thank God it's not super serious, even though we're seeing this country better than a million new cases each and every day for the last three days.

It's also blistering across the European continent. The White House has come under increasing attacks over its COVID response and how it's dealing with all of this.

Jacqui Heinrich has more from the White House -- Jacqui.

JACQUI HEINRICH, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Neil.

Six former members of President Biden's health advisory board have just made their views known in a series of op-eds. They're calling for the administration to scrap its pandemic response messaging and embrace this new normal of living with COVID.

They say that previous claims that we have gotten ahead of the virus turned out to be shortsighted. There needs to be a shift in our understanding of success. But the White House is not ready to abandon the president's promise to shut down the virus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEINRICH: Does the president believe that COVID is here to stay?

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Again, the president's goal is to defeat the virus. The president's focus and objective now is to save as many lives as possible. And we know what works, and we know that pushing more people, getting more people vaccinated, getting more people boosted, encouraging mask-wearing, making sure schools have the resources they need to stay open and do that in a safe way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEINRICH: The White House is also not providing more clarity on the CDC's decision not to change the definition of fully vaccinated to include a booster shot, despite a months-long campaign to promote them.

Now, such a change could create potential challenges, like increased opposition to employer vaccine mandates or a greater strain on an already depleted work force. The White House continues to insist science is driving the CDC's policy-making, despite the inconsistencies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEINRICH: What is the point of calling someone fully vaccinated with only that primary series of shots, if the science is showing that that's not enough to protect them?

PSAKI: Well, Jackie, what the CDC is advising is for everyone to be up to date on their shots.

HEINRICH: At a certain point in time, given the waning protection of the primary series of vaccines and the need to get boosters in a shorter time period, will there come a time where you're not really fully vaccinated anymore with just two shots?

PSAKI: Well, when -- by up to date, they're advising people, if they're due for a booster, they should get a booster.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEINRICH: Now, the CDC has also faced a lot of scrutiny that its policies are confusing, after repeated shifts on testing guidance and also conflicting claims between the CDC and the White House on exactly what is driving their policies.

The White House continues to argue that the CDC is making those policy decisions based only on the science, but the CDC director, Rochelle Walensky, has said a couple of times herself that they take into account other factors, like keeping the economy running, keeping the work force operational, in those policy-making decisions -- Neil.

CAVUTO: Interesting. Great questioning.

Thank you, Jacqui, very much.

Jacqui Heinrich at the White House on all of that.

To Dr. Syra Madad right now, the Special Pathogens Program senior director NYC Health and Hospitals.

Doctor, the word we're getting out of the White House right now is it's trying to pivot. I'm interpreting it that way. Maybe I'm wrong, but to say that we made you have to realize that this is going to be with us a while. Do you think it's going to be with us a while, that we have to adapt to it as we do the common flu?

DR. SYRA MADAD, NEW YORK CITY HEALTH AND HOSPITALS: So I do think that we are in this -- with this virus in the long run.

I'm not going to say we're going to be in this pandemic forever. This pandemic or the emergency phase that we're currently in is going to end and we're going to transition into a period...

CAVUTO: All right, we seem to have some audio problems there. If we can fix it, guys.

Otherwise, I could just update you on a couple of things that came up.

And, Doctor, I think we're back with you.

One of the things that came up is that we have many more potential treatments, between pills from Merck and Pfizer, recommended third, fourth booster shots that Israel is saying have been effective at building antibodies there. Where are you on all of this?

It confuses a lot of people, but what is considered fully vaccinated, fully treated for this these days?

MADAD: Well, as you know, CDC has updated their definition, and now it's using up to date, which means those that have gotten the complete primary series, in addition to that booster dose, and that's what it means to be up to date.

Fully vaccinated, right now, by the old definition, means just completing the primary series. And so, as we move forward with this virus, we want to make sure everybody continues to be up to date, so completing the primary series, in addition...

CAVUTO: OK, I apologize for that.

We have our gremlins today, first my voice and then the satellite issues.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: Doctor, I apologize for that, but we are having some problems there.

We do want to let you know too that another thing that has changed here, in light of this Omicron wave right now, where we're seeing better than a million new cases a day over the last three days, again, most not very serious at all, but again, the problem is the fact that so many businesses are affected.

In fact, there's talk of providing still more relief for businesses and restaurants, pubs, that sort of thing.

One guy who's calling for it right now and just might have congressional backing -- after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, there's a push right now to deal with the weather again. And it's a do-over, or a chance at a do-over, in Virginia, where the governor has already declared a state of emergency, for very good reason.

We will tell you about it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, we have spent a lot of money trying to stimulate the economy through COVID, and now a push to help small businesses, restaurants and others who are dealing with forced closures or mandates and the like, requirements on how many people can fit in an establishment, you name it.

A lot of these establishments are saying, we're in a world of hurt, and we need more help. So there's a push on Capitol Hill to provide another $68 billion to such businesses.

Mike Emanuel has the latest on where that is going.

Hey, Mike, good to have you. Where is this going right now?

MIKE EMANUEL, FOX NEWS SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Neil, there are other conversations under way to talk about whether that is needed to provide more aid to businesses amid the Omicron surge.

It's not entirely clear where the votes are for that at this point. Obviously, Republicans think that more than enough has been spent at this point. Obviously, they allocated $1.9 trillion in COVID relief money just last spring. And a lot of folks are asking, where did that money go, as people are scrambling to find testing in this country, and have been unable to do so?

And so there was thought that there would be negotiations over the Christmas holiday between the White House and Senator Joe Manchin on perhaps a slimmed-down version of that Build Back Better Act that Manchin has held up basically by himself. He threw cold water on that idea when he came back to the Hill this week.

He said there have been no conversations about a slimmer or new-and- improved Build Back Better Act. And so it's not entirely clear whether the White House and Senator Manchin are in a cooling-off period or where things exactly stand.

But when you look at Manchin, the West Virginia Democrat, he seems to be the person who's holding up the idea of changing the rules in the Senate to perhaps change federal voting laws, something that Republicans say should be determined by the individual states.

He's also seen as the person who is standing up and stopping that Build Back Better Act pumping another $2 trillion or so into the economy, when there are inflation concerns in this country. And so a lot of people on the conservative side of things are seeing Manchin as a huge hero, basically stopping a runaway agenda on the left.

But, obviously, the Democratic Party is quite frustrated that one of their own may be stopping them from spending a whole lot more and getting President Biden's agenda across the finish line, Neil.

CAVUTO: Yes.

When you look at this $68 billion package to help businesses, it seems so small by comparison, so Democrats are no doubt telling Manchin, you should be open to this. But it's the times in which we live.

But I'm curious, do we know where he stands on this? Do we know whether this has any chance of passage? Republicans say, we don't need it, we have got plenty of still unspent funds out there.

EMANUEL: Yes, I haven't spoken with him this week to know exactly where he stands on the $68 billion, but he is of the opinion that he's greatly concerned about inflation, wanted to give it some time to -- basically to see what all this other spending would do to the economy in terms of whether it would aggravate inflation, make the situation worse.

So, I haven't gotten a firm readout from him exactly on where he is on that $68 billion. But I'm old enough to remember when $68 billion was a whole lot of cash. Now we throw around trillions in this town, and so interesting times here in Washington.

CAVUTO: And you're not even that old, though, so, man, oh, man, if you had my memory here.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: I remember when the whole budget was a billion.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: Anyway, thank you very, very much, my friend, following these developments fast, and they're moving very, very quickly on Capitol Hill.

EMANUEL: Thank you, sir.

CAVUTO: Adam Kinzinger is coming up next.

He is one of only two Republicans on this January 6 commission, the other, of course, Liz Cheney. She was on the floor of the House as Nancy Pelosi was speaking, along with her dad, the former Vice President Dick Cheney, who says he doesn't recognize the leadership in the Republican Party right now.

I wonder if Adam Kinzinger feels the same way. He's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, there is a January 6 commission looking into what led to that insurrection on Capitol Hill. The committee continues to get the facts. And we're told that hearings will be scheduled. They might even be in prime time in the next few weeks.

There are only two Republicans on this commission for the time being. Adam Kinzinger is one of them, the other Liz Cheney.

The Illinois Republican, Adam Kinzinger, kind enough to join us right now.

Sir, thank you for joining us. '

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): You bet. Thanks for having me.

CAVUTO: Let me ask you first about what you have found at this point and what kind of cooperation you're getting from former Trump officials, including former Vice President Mike Pence.

KINZINGER: So, we're getting a lot of cooperation, actually.

Of course, where we're not getting cooperation, where we have to take action to get that cooperation, is what's highlighted. But we have already spoken to over 300 people. Significantly, the vice president's former team has been quite cooperative in shedding light on what we need to know.

I'm interested in what led to January 6 most importantly. What is -- what were the circumstances? What did the former president know prior to January 6?

Because what's most important, even more than accountability for that day, is that we don't have anything like that happen again. So, we're making some really good strides. And I think every day that goes by, we're going to learn more and more.

CAVUTO: You have been very critical of Kevin McCarthy, his role a year ago vs. his role now, and even saying that he helped Donald Trump rebuild his political fortune.

Could you explain?

KINZINGER: Yes, look, and it pains me, because Kevin and I used to be friends.

And, on January 1, I was on a conference call with Kevin. And I said: "Kevin, I fear there's going to be violence on the 6th, because, when you convince people that an election was stolen, if you believe that, I mean, violence is a pretty logical outcome from that."

And he just said: "Operator, next caller."

And since, after January 6, he gave that speech saying Trump bears responsibility, and then two weeks later was down at Mar-a-Lago.

And, in that intervening time, there was a lot of silence within the Republican ranks about, where are we going to go? And the second he went there, he basically denied top cover to anybody that wanted to step out and say the truth, and really brought the former president's political fortunes back to life.

It's disappointing from a leadership perspective. And, as a guy that attended Sunday school almost every week as a kid, the truth matters, and we're not telling people the truth.

CAVUTO: What happened, Congressman?

Because the leadership was almost universally critical at the time, including Mitch McConnell, including Kevin McCarthy, including others, yourself, of course, who raised serious questions about the president's behavior at the time, and then radio silence.

What happened?

KINZINGER: You know, I think, at so many points in the last year, the intervening four or five years, as President Trump was kind of rising up to get elected, there were always moments he seemed like he was going to be down and out, and he wasn't.

And I think, from a political leader perspective, they began to fear their own base. And this is a key. As leaders, yes, we need our base to elect us. We need our people to elect us. But part of the two-way street is that -- of that is, we have to lead people as well.

It is a responsibility. It's a unique responsibility. And I think too many people became fearful. We have a two-year election cycle. So you're always in one. They became fearful of losing that job.

And you can convince yourself, I will just stay quiet, so that I survive, because somebody maybe with much more conspiracy-driven attitudes will replace me.

The problem is, now is the time. Now is the time where we just need to stand up and tell the people that we represent the truth. They deserve that. They don't deserve more and more e-mails trying to take their $20 or $30 away for a Stop the Steal movement based in complete nothingness, of which none of that money actually went to stopping the steal.

CAVUTO: Are you aware of your colleagues who are afraid of Donald Trump's wrath, that he will either primary them, go after them, much as he did you?

KINZINGER: Oh, yes. I mean, I think every one of my Republican colleagues, to an extent, has that fear.

I think some are very not open about it, because they don't want to admit it. But that's why they start to go underground, be a little quieter.

Here's the other thing, Neil, that I think is interesting. I guarantee you, if you put truth serum into every Republican member of Congress, all but maybe one or two, just because I got to put some slop in there, would tell you that the election was legitimate, Joe Biden won, and the election wasn't stolen.

Yes, it angers people to hear it that don't want to hear it, but that's the truth.

The problem is, why are those people not telling their folks the truth? That is our basic and foremost responsibility as members of Congress.

So, I will stand on an island. I will take arrows. That's fine. I don't care. But I can look at myself in the mirror and know I told the truth. And that, to me, is what matters more than anything.

CAVUTO: If he runs for president again, and he were the Republican nominee, would you support him?

KINZINGER: Certainly not, no.

When I saw both the undermining of the faith in an election system -- we have to have a basic compact between the far left and far right that, when you vote, it counts, and that it's going to be counted accurately. That's how self-governance survives.

He undermined that, and I would never vote for him again.

CAVUTO: Do you think he precipitated the attack on the Capitol?

KINZINGER: So, I don't want to go out on a limb and say that. That's information we want to get to.

What we know is that, for 180-some minutes, he watched television and watched the attack unfold. I can tell you, at a basic level, that is abdicating your oath to office to defend the Constitution against enemies, foreign and domestic. That's the basic.

Now, if he was gleeful, and did he know stuff leading up to January 6, that's what I can't answer. That's what we hope to be able to answer. And I think that will show the difference between an incompetent or a president frozen in inaction vs. a president that knew what was coming.

I think that will be key. We don't have that yet. We will get there.

CAVUTO: If he did get into the White House again, pulled a Grover Cleveland, serving a second term not concurrently, what do you think it would be like?

KINZINGER: Look, I -- you know, as a conservative, policy-wise, those are the kinds of things that excite me, getting conservative policies. But when you can't govern yourself, and when we're so divided, I'm not sure it matters.

I think, if -- imagine if he's back on Twitter, and, every day, it's a new fight you're trying to pick, and trying to unify a country, when we're facing real enemies like China, we're facing Russia on the border of Ukraine, Iran with a nuclear program, and we're more interested with fighting the other political party than we are in actually defending American interests.

I think that only gets worse, Neil. And I think, quite honestly, people's faith in democracy erodes. And when you lose faith, no matter who you are, no matter what you believe, when you lose faith, democracy fails, because that's the basic requirement.

CAVUTO: Congressman, how does it feel to be a pariah within your own party?

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: I said the same of Liz Cheney.

KINZINGER: You know, I don't like the feeling.

I have grown up -- I was a Republican since I was 6 years old. I admire the Republican past, what we stood for, American leadership and strength, all that kind of stuff. So, that part hurts, right?

But I would never change -- I would not change a thing that I have done, particularly in the last year, because I know -- I have got a son being born imminently. It's why I'm in Illinois. I know that he will be proud of me someday, and I know he will be able to look and say that I stood up in a tough time.

And if it's just me and Liz doing it, it's just me and Liz. That's fine. I wish it was more people, though.

CAVUTO: Adam Kinzinger, thank you very, very much of the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, Congressman Kinzinger and Liz Cheney the only two Republicans in that capacity.

We will have more after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, mortgage rates the highest they have been in nine months right now, 3.22 percent. That's still pretty low.

But I have always said on this show and my FOX Business show, which, if you don't get, you should demand, that perspective is everything. There's a certain generation that can remember when rates were a heck of a lot higher than that.

Let me show you something that goes back to early 1981, October, I should say, 1981, when a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage would set you back for 18.6 percent. So you can imagine a couple years later, when my wife and I bought our first condo, and we were paying 16.5 percent, we thought we were financial geniuses.

So your sort of view and your age comes into play here. But that is a big jump for people who have been getting used to maybe two-something mortgages now or three-something mortgages. They could go into four-something, five- something. Who knows.

Charles Payne, the "Making Money" hit host on FOX Business, joins us, Susan Li as well, FOX Business correspondent.

Charles, like I say, I mean, those of a certain age, not that you're old, my friend, but I can leave Susan out of this.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: She doesn't even remember those much higher rates, but they are getting higher. How much higher, you think?

CHARLES PAYNE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: You know, they won't get to the point where you will have to change this. We could do the same segment next year, and it will still be relevant.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: Oh, all right, got you.

PAYNE: But, to your other point -- to your other point, though, like if you are just new to the housing market, 4 percent, 5 percent will feel pretty -- pretty high.

I don't think it'll get that high. I think maybe 4 percent. But you know what is really amazing, Neil? Right now, someone could buy a very expensive house and, because rates are so low, actually have a monthly payment much lower than someone who had a far less expensive house five, 10 years ago, one of the reasons the housing market is booming.

And so it's critical that they don't get too high, that these mortgage rates don't get too high.

CAVUTO: Now, you're very young, Susan.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: I mean, does this sort of stuff scare you off? Do you think oh, man, I missed the boat?

SUSAN LI, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so we can't remember 18 percent.

But I can tell you that the millennials and the Gen Z's, they look at it a year ago, and, oh, by the way, we were paying 2.65 percent. And that's really what's been driving the housing market, right?

CAVUTO: Right.

LI: You saw record home prices that we saw in October. That's also driving the wealth effect in the markets as well. So, if I feel richer from my home values going up a lot, by the way, over the past two years, I'm going to go out and spend more.

And that's has been helping power the U.S. economy.

CAVUTO: It looks like the Federal Reserve, Charles, is poised to maybe raise rates a lot sooner, maybe a lot faster this year.

How would that affect mortgages and the rest? Some of these are pegged to market rates. So it's possible that market rates stay fairly sanguine, but what do you think?

PAYNE: It's so -- I'm glad you brought that up, because Susan talked about the wealth effect.

Stock market, housing market, those are things that the Fed really wants to work out. Even that communique they put out yesterday, they talked about markets a lot.

So, I'm in the camp maybe the 10-year yield gets up to 2.5 percent. But these mortgages based off the 30-year, I don't think they're going to move that much. Now, they will go higher, there's no doubt about it. And there will be a psychological factor initially.

But, also, we could get a sense that if anyone has been holding out that the train is leaving the station. So, oddly enough, you might actually spur some folks who have been sitting on the fence.

But the Fed is in a pickle, right? They are in a serious pickle. They created this pickle, and I'm not sure how they're going to get out of it.

CAVUTO: Yes.

PAYNE: But I just don't think -- what Wall Street saw yesterday that scared the heck out of this market, I don't think that's going to come to fruition.

CAVUTO: Yes, we saw it again today play out, particularly in technology stocks, Susan.

LI: Oh, yes.

CAVUTO: And they are indirectly, disproportionately hit when rates even inch up. Is that overkill?

LI: Yes, hedge funds actually selling off the most technology shares in a decade, in 10 years. And now, all of a sudden, they're underweight, some of these mega-cap names that have taken the stock markets up to these record levels.

I think Wall Street forgets that times of rising interest rates are actually good for the stock markets. You have been up five out of the last six periods, right? And, by the way, there is a premium for American exceptionalism that has been priced into the market.

America has outperformed the rest of the market for the past four years, Apple a great example, that $3 trillion, first company to ever cross that threshold this week. And $3 trillion, by the way, Neil, that's more than the entire stocks put together traded on the London Stock Exchange.

CAVUTO: Yes, that's more than Charles Payne is worth, last time -- close. It's very close.

(LAUGHTER)

PAYNE: Just a little bit.

(CROSSTALK)

LI: Yes.

CAVUTO: Just a little bit.

Charles, I'm just wondering. The Fed has never, if you think about it, been able to orchestrate a soft landing. It's always bumpy.

PAYNE: Right.

CAVUTO: It gets done when all is said and done, but it's generally not for the faint of heart. What do you see happening?

PAYNE: Well, real market purists, real economic purists, economists who really study this stuff, particularly Austria -- the Austrian School of Economics, they don't feel like they have ever engineered a soft landing.

All they have ever done is reengineered Fed money printing.

CAVUTO: Yes.

PAYNE: And that's what they're going to probably do this time.

They will try. The markets will go wacky. They will get afraid. And some reason -- they will find another reason to start pumping the cash back into the system.

CAVUTO: Ah. I'm so glad you have got the Austrian angle in there, so we got that taken care of.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: Charles, you're the best.

PAYNE: Hey, she went with American exceptionalism. I had to do something.

CAVUTO: No, I know. No, no, no, you're exactly right.

Guys, I want to thank you both, the stars of FOX Business, which, if you don't get, demand.

PAYNE: All righty.

CAVUTO: Of course, you already are getting it, because you did demand it. And so you should.

We will have more after this, including winter weather. It's a take two moment for Virginia. Can the governor get his act together on this next snowstorm?

After this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: Ready for more snow?

Well, get ready, because it's on again, and throughout much of the Southern states, all the way through the Mid-Atlantic, up through the North.

Who knows better than our Rick Meichmuth -- Reichmuth, I should say, monitoring all of this.

What are we looking at, Rick?

RICK REICHMUTH, FOX NEWS CHIEF METEOROLOGIST: I mean, we have had more snow across parts of the South this winter than we have across the Northeast. It is pretty amazing.

So it's January. We're going to get a little bit of snow. And this storm isn't going to be that bad overall. That said, we have had major car accidents and pileups across parts of Kentucky already, places that maybe aren't so much used to so much snow.

Heaviest of the snow so far has been down across areas of Tennessee and into Kentucky. Nashville, the snow was mostly over for you, around three or four inches around town. To the north of that, still snowing in Kentucky, where Northeastern Kentucky, along Interstate 64, is seeing major car pileups.

Now, this snow on the ground is new snow there across parts of Kentucky. But we still have some snow on the ground across the D.C. area from the storm that brought all of those problems across I-95 just a couple of days ago. That snow is on the ground, temps a little bit warmer right now. We're going to get another coating of snow.

It's not going to be certainly as bad as this last storm. And overnight, tonight, we see that snow across New York City from Philly to New York City by tomorrow morning, heavily in across areas around the Boston area. We do have winter storm warnings back across parts of West Virginia. That will probably be the bullseye from this storm, as well as coastal areas of New England.

So, Boston up towards Portland, Maine, is where we're going to probably be seeing the heaviest of the snow. Cities from Philadelphia to New York, one, two, three inches of snow, maybe an outside four or so. And the heavier snow will be a little bit farther off towards the east, so eastern ends of Long Island, Cape Cod and the islands, coastal parts of Maine.

That's where we're going to probably be seeing the heaviest of the snow from this. It's going to be rough going tomorrow morning, if you're heading out to go back to work. But just be careful. Go slow. It's not a blockbuster storm by any means.

That said, a little bit of rain comes in after this weekend. And then the bottom drops out temperature-wise. We will see the coldest temps we have seen so far this winter Monday into Tuesday, very, very cold across parts of the Northeast -- Neil.

CAVUTO: Thank you, Rick, my friend very, very much.

Rick Reichmuth following all of that.

By the way, if you're keeping track of this stuff, 2,000 more flight cancellations today, I think we're up to close to 20,000 flights canceled since around Christmastime here. So it's a nonstop thing.

What's going on?

Ben Baldanza joins us, the former Spirit Airlines CEO.

Ben, great to see you again. Happy new year.

What the heck is going on here?

BEN BALDANZA, FORMER CEO, SPIRIT AIRLINES: Neil, it's great to see you again.

And you're right about that number. It is almost 20,000 since Christmas Eve.

You know, what happens is the combination of traditionally higher sick calls that airlines get during this time, combined with Omicron. Then you have some pilot union leaders at one big airline telling their crews, even if you think you're exposed to someone with COVID, you should not go to work.

And when you have that kind of paranoia, then what you have is lots of people not coming to work, and, in hindsight, airlines just having too many flights scheduled for the number of people that they have to fly the flight.

The more proactive airlines, Neil, have been canceling ahead of time, so at least they give people a day or two to plan.

CAVUTO: But it's really soured the industry's reputation.

And I'm just wondering, just as it's getting back up on its feet and travel has gotten busy again, this could do some harm for quite a while, don't you think?

BALDANZA: Well, it could. And they're going to have to fix that with low pricing again.

And if you remember, we had a summer where we saw similar kinds of issues, lots of cancellations.

CAVUTO: Sure.

BALDANZA: Then Thanksgiving worked pretty well for the industry. There weren't a lot of problems. And some people were thinking, well, maybe the airlines learned from the summer.

But now we know that there's just not a good alignment between the people who decide what flights to fly and the operators who actually have to make it happen. And that's got to get back together.

The good news, though, Neil, is that January and early February are really weak times for travel. There's not a lot of leisure travel at that time.

CAVUTO: Really?

BALDANZA: And there's not a lot of businesses traveling. So airlines can take a breather, and hopefully get caught up with a lot of the hiring that they're doing.

CAVUTO: Real quick advice for a traveler trying to avoid these cancellations. What would it be?

BALDANZA: Well, I guess it would be pick a route that has enough frequencies that, if they cancel one or two, you could still rebook the same day.

Or the others would be to book far enough beyond the holiday, if possible. It's now after the holidays, really. And since there are going to be fewer flights, because there's weaker demand right now...

CAVUTO: All right.

BALDANZA: ... the likelihood that we're going to see the cancellations we saw over Christmas is small.

CAVUTO: All right, hopefully, everything works out.

Ben, great seeing you again, Ben Baldanza, the former Spirit Airlines CEO.

So, some needy advice, if you want to take it, in the middle of all of this.

Here comes "The Five."

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