This is a rush transcript from "Your World with Neil Cavuto," September 15, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: The rallying cry to get vaccinated is on.

The president hosting a meeting with top CEOs, including the top executives at Disney and Microsoft, Walgreens, Kaiser Permanente, among just a few, saying, what you're doing here for your workers in compelling them to get vaccinated is something I want to carry on way beyond big companies and those with 100 or more workers.

The only question is why more CEOs aren't quite as keen on this, and some now are balking at the strong-arming around this.

Welcome, everybody. I'm Neil Cavuto. And this is "Your World."

Well, the push to get people vaccinated might be putting the White House on a legal slippery slope, but the hope seems to be among top White House officials that, after all the legal wrangling, more Americans will be vaccinated and the problem, well, will miraculously go away or not be as much of a problem.

This as we get news that one out of 500 Americans had died of COVID-19. But the numbers, we're told, are beginning to improve.

Let's get the latest from the White House, Jacqui Heinrich -- Jacqui.

JACQUI HEINRICH, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Neil. Good afternoon.

The president met with CEOs and company presidents representing more than 200 major businesses that are really pushing these vaccine requirements, their argument being that vaccine mandates are good for the economy, with fewer people who are stuck at home unable to work and fewer people sick and dying.

The president said the Labor Department is working on emergency rules that would require all employers with 100 or more workers to ensure that their employees are vaccinated and regularly tested, including new requirements for nearly all health care workers to get vaccinated.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: These vaccination requirements will cover 100 million workers, two-thirds of all workers, and it builds on previous requirements that we have -- we have installed so far.

And the vaccine requirements work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEINRICH: The Biden administration's been encouraging local leaders to mandate vaccines, but it's being met with pushback in states like Texas and Florida, where executive orders from the governors are making mandates punishable by fines.

And Arizona's attorney general says the White House push is constitutionally inappropriate, pointing out that migrants who come across the Southern border are not facing the same pressures to get vaccinated or risk losing their jobs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK BRNOVICH (R), ARIZONA ATTORNEY GENERAL: Really, what they have done is, they have said, if you're a noncitizen, you have the option whether to take the vaccine or not.

But if you're a U.S. citizen, you're going to be required to take the vaccine. And so that clearly violates the Equal Protection Clause. And if you read our lawsuit, we also make the case that the president himself does not have any power anywhere in the Constitution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEINRICH: So the view at the White House is vaccine mandates from businesses will have the largest impact in mitigating the spread of COVID.

Meanwhile, Dr. Fauci said that he would support a vaccine mandate for air travel. The White House has not officially taken a position on that. They have just said that they're continuing to look for ways to -- quote -- "provide consistency," Neil.

CAVUTO: All right, Jacqui, thank you very much.

Jacqui Heinrich at the White House on that.

For businesses, most businesses, it's not so much vaccine mandates that are riddling them these days, but how it is that they want to hire tens of thousands -- Fidelity looking to hire 9,000, Amazon, north of 100,000, and Walmart and a host of others -- you add it all up, the ongoing number of jobs that could be available is close to 12 million.

Here's the problem, though. It's juxtaposed against more than nine million Americans out of work. So the obvious question would be, wait a minute, we have more jobs available than people who are looking for jobs. That doesn't jibe. And it's worrying business.

Let's go to Susan Li with more on that -- Susan.

SUSAN LI, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: You're right, Neil.

Companies do continue to hire. They know that this is a hot jobs market. And in this type of job environment, you have to pay up to get the workers in. So, as you mentioned, America's biggest online retailer, Amazon, is looking to fill 125,000 new jobs.

And they're raising the starting pay to $18 an hour and offering free college for eligible workers. Over at Sam's Club, you have hourly pay going up to $15 an hour, and that's up from 11 bucks. That's even higher than the base pay at its parent company, Walmart, which also just raised the minimum wage to $12 an hour.

So there's a war for talent as they ramp into the holiday shopping period, with retailers and shippers looking to add hundreds of thousands of head count. And then, as you mentioned, financial money manager Fidelity also looking to fill 9,000 jobs by the end of this year.

So, yes, this is one of the tightest labor markets that we have ever seen, with a record 10.1 million job openings in July. That's 1.5 million more jobs available than those looking for work. Now, the shortage of workers is also having a wider impact, with Caterpillar's CEO complaining that they are having a tough time getting materials as a result, which is impacting their global supply chain.

And despite companies paying more, by the way, that's still not enough to offset the fastest consumer price increases that we have seen in more than a decade, with wages down nearly 2 percent when you adjust for inflation, according to the Labor Department.

Inflation, though, did slow down a little bit in August, Neil, consumer prices rising less than anticipated, but still at over 5 percent from a year ago. We're still at the hottest level in 13 years, so not much relief just yet.

CAVUTO: Not yet.

LI: Yes.

CAVUTO: All right, thank you very much, Susan Li.

So, it is a weird conundrum to have, right? I mean, you have so many jobs that are being offered and so few taking up employers on that. What's going on here?

Let's go to Charles Payne, the host of "Making Money" on FOX Business. We have also got Erin Gibbs with us, the Gibbs Wealth Management president

Charles, this doesn't seem to jibe. What's blocking it?

CHARLES PAYNE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Well, Neil, we had this unusual situation where people were able to work 15 months or longer from home, or if they didn't work, they were getting supplemental unemployment benefits from the federal government, in addition to stimulus checks that have gone out, child care payments that are going out now. The third payment just went out.

And even before then, there was this big movement about work-life balance, and people just sat back at home and they started to contemplate, can I get the ideal job and what does that ensue? It's not just money, but money plays a big role. Some want to work remotely. Some want to work in a different industry.

There's even a whole lot of folks sitting out there saying they want to work for companies whose ideas, whose ethos represent the same as theirs. So we're in a very idealistic situation right now, where people are still sitting on money. Even if your unemployment benefits ran out at the beginning of this month, people sitting on a whole lot of money, and they have got time to be very choosy in this job market.

CAVUTO: Erin, I'm wondering other factors like the virus and these spikes, it's sort of like Whac-A-Mole, depending on the state, that it's not quite over yet, the pop-up in Asia and et cetera.

A lot of people are factoring that in: I'm not comfortable yet. What do you make of that?

ERIN GIBBS, GIBBS WEALTH MANAGEMENT: You know, Neil, we have been looking at surveys.

And while there may be a lot of people that are looking for something better, the top two that are still come up for the reason why I'm not going back to work is family care, so either child care, eldercare -- so you don't trust to put a parent back in the nursing home or your child isn't going to school full-time, and someone needs to stay home for them.

And the second one is fear. I'm afraid of getting sick, I'm afraid of going on public transport. I'm just not ready to go out.

And so we know that some of the states, particularly this September, in fact, this week, a lot of schools have reopened, like, fully reopened, where they're in class. So that's an interesting test to see if those states will start seeing higher unemployment, as you're able to go to work because you don't stay home for your child, and, as vaccination rates become higher, if perhaps that leads to less fear.

We haven't seen that yet. It's the fact there's no correlation if you have higher vaccination rates that you have lower unemployment, and there's absolutely -- I would love to say, but there is none.

But -- so that's something that we still have to attack, is getting people comfortable going back to work.

CAVUTO: Yes, and that's a psychological thing.

Maybe it's also the prospect of what workers have to look forward to. We're going to be exploring this in the next segment, Charles, a little bit more. But this $3.5 trillion infrastructure package, it's loaded with tax increases. Now, it's been sold as increases on guys like you, who can well afford it, but not necessarily anyone else has to worry.

But I think people are beginning to worry about that. What about you?

PAYNE: Yes, of course they're beginning to worry, because there's all kinds of taxes. There's taxes on tobacco in there, right? That impacts a whole lot of different folks.

The definition of $400,000, that's lurching more and more toward a couple, not an individual. So that sucks in a whole lot of people. You might have thought you were getting on in that threshold. You're not. So there's a lot of anxiety about that.

I will say, on the vaccination thing, I looked on Friday, and the top five states with vaccination rates actually had higher -- higher average unemployment than the bottom five vaccinated states. So it's tough to make these correlations.

But we're just in a unique period. I mean, you talked about Amazon today. You heard Susan Li talking about Amazon, 125,000 jobs, $18 an hour, $3,000 signing bonuses. So a lot of businesses can't even woo workers, even if those people were inclined to go to work.

CAVUTO: Looking at this from how politicians deal with it, I guess it could be a nice problem to have, to have more jobs out there than people are taking up those jobs, but it goes on much longer, and that could be a problem.

GIBBS: Certainly.

One, businesses just won't be able to run profitably. They may go out of business. They don't have enough workers. And obviously, those costs, they're having to pay in more and more to finally entice somebody to come to this job, that you're going to see that in inflation.

So there's a lot of different points that we need to make and attack it at so many different levels. And we also know that economic reopening policies have a big impact as well. It makes people feel more confident, as states reopen, and are more open and it feels freer.

So that's another thing that politicians should really look at when it comes to the psychology of it all.

CAVUTO: All right, guys, I want to thank you both very, very much.

We did get to that $3.5 trillion spending package that they're kicking around in Congress here. The devil is in the details, and it's not just Republicans now who want more details. Now a growing number of Democrats are concerned not only about the cost of all of this, but the taxes in all of this.

And there's very little wiggle room -- after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: We are getting word that Senator Joe Manchin is expected to meet with the president a little later this afternoon into the night.

Already, Democratic Arizona Senator Kyrsten Sinema met with the president. They're both concerned about the spiraling costs of the so-called human infrastructure package. They're not the only one. There's a rumble in the House as well, again, among Democrats who are concerned this could be getting out of hand.

Chad Pergram is keeping track of it all.

Chad, where do we stand?

CHAD PERGRAM, FOX NEWS SENIOR CAPITOL HILL PRODUCER: Good afternoon, Neil.

Well, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says they are -- quote -- "on schedule" to advance the massive bill. Today is the deadline for House committees to complete the text of the bill. But they're not there just yet.

Democrats might need to cut the size of the bill. Moderate Democrats are balking. And if they trim the cost, Democrats must then court the votes of the left. That may work if they can stuff immigration into the spending bill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D-IL): Fate is being decided by the Senate parliamentarian. We are presenting arguments and evidence to her. She's requested more and that has been provided as well.

So I think we have a strong case. I hope she agrees.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERGRAM: Senate parliamentarian Elizabeth MacDonough decides what's in and what's out when it comes to special bills like these. Even Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell admires the audacity of the Democrats.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): Can't blame the other side for trying to use reconciliation as expansively as they want to.

That's always the temptation of the majority using the reconciliation process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERGRAM: If Democrats persuade MacDonough that immigration is a money issue, it could be allowed in.

Democrats need the votes of moderate Senators Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin. Sinema met with the president this morning. Manchin goes later on. And Manchin wants the bill to shrink -- Neil.

CAVUTO: Yes, like about half the size.

Thank you very much, Chad Pergram.

In the meantime, there's the other issue of how you pay for all of this. And there too Democrats are balking at some stunning tax increases that they fear could boomerang.

The latest from Hillary Vaughn on Capitol Hill.

Hey, Hillary.

HILLARY VAUGHN, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Neil.

Well, some House Democrats want big corporations to pick up the tab for this $3.5 trillion social spending package. But business groups are sounding the alarm, saying that is going to mean lower wages, smaller raises and fewer job opportunities, saying a proposal to raise the corporate tax rate from House Dems to 26.5 percent doesn't tell the whole story.

Well, today, Republican and Democratic lawmakers in the House sparred over who these tax hikes really help and whether or not they hurt the middle class.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE KELLY (R-PA): So, while you're not for the working man and woman, and for you to somehow say that this is about putting a bigger clamp on the rich, this is not about keeping a clamp on the rich. This is about driving jobs overseas.

REP. JIMMY GOMEZ (D-CA): You guys don't want -- you don't want to raise taxes on corporations, who you believe are the backbone of this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUGHN: According to analysis from the Tax Foundation of the House Ways and Means proposals, say the combined corporate income tax rate -- or corporate tax rate would be a lot higher when you do the math and add up state corporate tax rates.

Companies in 21 states and D.C. under this proposal would have a higher corporate tax rate than any country in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. The highest state would be New Jersey, where companies would face a combined corporate tax rate of nearly 35 percent.

A 35 percent corporate rate was a big concern for Senator Chuck Schumer back in 2012, when he tried to convince his colleagues in Congress to cut the corporate rate down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER: Now, some on the left have suggested corporate tax reform could be a source for new revenue. But, here, I disagree. To preserve our international competitiveness, it is imperative we seek to reduce the corporate rate from -- this will boost growth and encourage more companies to reinvest in the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUGHN: And, Neil, today, some House Republicans are pointing out that some of the points that Schumer made there back in 2012 are similar to the arguments that Republicans are making today to their Democratic colleagues -- Neil.

CAVUTO: Yes.

And, of course, Schumer's forces would say, well, corporate taxes were a lot higher then. We have gotten all the way down to 21 percent. We overdid it.

So the linguistics go back and forth.

Hillary, thank you. Great reporting, as usual.

Well, you probably know how this lines up. Republicans, by and large, hate the whole thing. Democrats, by and large, want to see, well, that this passes, by and large. So the real bloc you have to win over are those either moderate Democrats or independents.

And, as a voting bloc, they are very, very skeptical. I'm not talking about the politicians. I'm talking about independent Americans, who right now are not showing a great deal of, well, enthusiasm for all of this, where I want -- this is where I want to bring in Lee Carter.

Lee, it's interesting to note that only about a third of general view of independent voters approve the job the president is doing. And when it comes to things like this big spending initiative, that works into that skepticism. What's going on here?

LEE CARTER, REPUBLICAN POLLSTER: So, what we have seen really over the last two months is President Biden's approval rating has sharply declined.

And it's not just that it's declined in his approval rating. What's happened, that his disapproval rating has increased significantly. So now, more than half folks think that Biden is not doing a good job. In particular, they're very concerned about the economy, that 52 percent of Americans are saying he's not doing a good job on the economy.

That's a 10 percent shift in just two months. When you really break down the numbers, you look at Democrats, they still think he's doing a good job. Republicans, not surprisingly, say he's not. The really important piece there is those independent voters, who are really not giving him the benefit of doubt.

They're saying they're not feeling good about the economy, they're not feeling good about foreign policy, they're not feeling good about his handling of COVID, which all were things that he polled very, very well with independents until he took office, and the last two months have been really, really not good for him.

And so I think, as you look at the popularity of the infrastructure plan has also really changed. When it was at $1.2 trillion spending, we had a lot of support among independents.

CAVUTO: Right.

CARTER: Right now, less than 50 percent of independents think this is the right thing for Americans -- for America to do right now.

And so it's a real issue for Democrats and for this administration to navigate, because they're going to need independent support, especially as we're getting closer to those midterms.

CAVUTO: The administration is hanging on to the possibility this thing gets passed, whether it's at 3.5 trillion. They hope to be close to that. They're off to the races. It will generate enormous stimulus, the economy will boom.

But the Republicans just the opposite. So someone is going to be very, very wrong on this. Maybe independents are expressing some of the healthy skepticism out there that been there, done that with these large stimulus measures, and we're worried.

CARTER: Yes, when you talk to independent voters, the thing that we hear is that spending too much money is not going to help us in the long term.

So they're really concerned about continued stimulus around COVID. They're concerned about excessive spending, and they don't think everything that is being put in this bill is necessary. While lots of people like the idea of some of the social benefits, they're pretty popular, when you put it as a collective, they're very concerned that $3.5 trillion, this is just too much money for us to be taking on, especially when they're feeling the economy is weak in the first place.

There's obviously an opposite school of thought that says we need to have this kind of spending and stimulus in order to move things forward. Independents aren't buying it right now. They're very concerned about tax levels. They're very concerned about what's going to happen to them -- to their own pocketbooks and to their future.

And I think what we're seeing, in addition to all of this, is that there's a lot of people -- you can see the divine in red states and blue states.

CAVUTO: Yes.

CARTER: And a lot of people are moving into red states now as taxes are becoming more and more a concern and as people are feeling inflation.

So 70 percent of Americans are feeling the impact of inflation at the grocery store, their energy bills once a month. Now you're going to be telling them they're paying more taxes, that -- and you're also going to see companies are going to be taxed at higher rates. And so they're probably going to be moving.

And so it's going to be interesting to see how this all plays out in the coming months. But it's not looking very good for the Democrats, even if they get it passed right now.

CAVUTO: Yes, because they're pushing the notion that this is all just on the wealthy, the cost of it, and they're going to pay it. But, as we're beginning to find out that, there is a trickle down that goes the other way as well.

Lee Carter, thank you very, very much.

Well, here's some startling news and alert for you. Pfizer is very, very happy to announce that, come next week, booster shots available, and you're going to love it. Of course, Pfizer's the one that makes the booster shots.

So put that aside, because a lot of doctors and those closest to the medical community talking to the president are concerned he's pushing this too soon and too fast, that you don't need it. What's the rush? What's the deal?

After this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, well, the CDC is meeting on this so-called third booster shot and whether it's necessary next week, but, by that time, the booster shots will be out. So who gets them and when? And do we even need them right now?

After this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right next week, you will be able to get a booster shot, a third shot, if you have had the traditional two shots from some of the more popular players in this whole arena to get you vaccinated, but growing debate as to whether this Pfizer shot is necessary.

There are reports right now that Moderna, with a lot of its data, is saying, given some of the spike in cases we have seen, including those among those already vaccinated, such booster shots might not be a bad idea.

Now, keep in mind, Moderna is coming up with a booster shot of its own. Pfizer will have this shot available for use on Monday. So they might have a vested interest here.

But Dr. Kevin Campbell is worried about something far greater than the booster shot debate, but what's happening as these COVID cases increase, the K Roc Consulting president, CEO and cardiologist, kind enough to join us.

Doctor, I want to show a map that illustrates probably your concern, this spread across the country where so many states' intensive care units -- in six states in particular, like Kentucky and Arkansas, Texas, Alabama, Georgia -- are already over 90 percent, if not totally, totally full.

And a lot of that is because of COVID cases, so those with heart and other issues can't get to those ICUs. That is that's your biggest worry, right?

DR. KEVIN CAMPBELL, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, PACEMATE: Absolutely.

What we're seeing here Florida in particular is, our ICUs are overwhelmed with COVID patients who were not vaccinated.

So, I really think that, yes, the -- considering a booster is very important, but I think our Biden administration would do a lot better job focusing on getting folks vaccinated in the first place.

I think that if we continue to have lots of unvaccinated people, we're going to continue to see ICUs overrun with people who really shouldn't have to be there.

CAVUTO: How serious -- normally when you hear, Doctor, someone who's in intensive care, it's very, very serious. So are these cases among largely the unvaccinated who are in ICUs, is are they in a dicey situation? Do they need to be in the ICU?

CAMPBELL: Absolutely.

I know that lots of health care systems across the country are actually taking care of very sick patients on a floor bed or a step-down unit, rather than the ICU, because there's beds not available.

CAVUTO: Right.

CAMPBELL: When you go to the ICU, you need one-on-one nursing care, you often have multiple organ systems failing, and it is a big, big deal.

Most of it is respiratory with COVID. And then you have other organ systems that fail right along. So it's a crisis.

CAVUTO: You know what I'm also worried about, Doctor, is that -- and this story earlier in the week of a heart patient who was desperately trying to get to a hospital; 37 hospitals reported there was no room in their ICUs. He later died.

Now, a lot of people say, well, OK, those are kind of exception stories, but I'm worried that increasingly they might not be.

CAMPBELL: I think you're exactly right, Neil. I think they're not the exception. They're unfortunately becoming the norm.

We're seeing a lot of patients put off preventive care when it comes to their heart. We're having to put off elective procedures like elective cardiac catheterizations, elective pacemakers and ICD implantations.

And I'm afraid that patients won't go to the E.R. when they have chest pain because they're scared of COVID or the hospital's full. So I think we're in crisis mode all throughout the country.

CAVUTO: Do we need booster shots?

CAMPBELL: It's controversial.

CAVUTO: Yes.

CAMPBELL: I think that there are some groups of people that absolutely need them, those that are immunocompromised, those that have heart disease, lung disease, kidney disease, diabetes, chronic diseases, yes.

Right now, we have observational data from Israel that suggests that immunity wanes and you probably should have a booster shot. However, "The Lancet" published a paper this week in the last 24 hours that contradicts that with other trials.

So I think the jury's still out, and we need to look at the data more carefully.

CAVUTO: Got it.

Dr. Campbell, thank you always. Enjoy having you on.

CAMPBELL: Thanks so much for having me, Neil.

CAVUTO: OK.

In the meantime here, you heard about all the dust-up in this Bob Woodward book about General Milley and whether he was secretly going around the president to talk to the Chinese.

Well, today, General Milley's office responded. I'll tell you what he said -- after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: Not insubordination, just routine conversations.

General Mark Milley responding to the furor over this Bob Woodward book that he was trying to do an end-run around President Trump in the final weeks and months of his administration.

Let's get the latest from Jennifer Griffin -- Jennifer.

JENNIFER GRIFFIN, FOX NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Neil.

Well, the two calls made by General Milley to his Chinese counterpart were not secret. They were done with 15 people in the room, including notetakers, in coordination with the civilian leaders of the military at the time, and they were briefed to the secretary of state and White House chief of staff at the time as well, I'm told.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Did General Milley do the right thing?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have great confidence in General Milley.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRIFFIN: The unnamed sources in the Woodward and Costa "Peril" said General Milley told his Chinese counterpart, General Li, that he would give him a heads-up if the U.S. planned to strike.

Officials say this is taken out of context and needs to be understood as a reassurance to a concerned Chinese military leader that the U.S. was planning a surprise attack, which it was not.

A former senior Trump defense official says the phone call to the Chinese in October was done after then-Defense Secretary Mark Esper requested his civilian policy officials do the same. It was designed to lower the temperature and prevent the U.S. and China from stumbling into a conflict.

U.S. intelligence at the time suggested the Chinese were jumpy about all the noise coming out of Washington surrounding the U.S. election. U.S. Pacific Command sources tell FOX then-Defense Secretary Esper was so concerned about not spooking the Chinese that he asked for a delay in sending a significant number of ships and warplanes to the region around the time of the election for a December exercise.

Important to point out, Neil, there is no indication President Trump ever contemplated launching a nuclear weapon or launching a war with the Chinese after January 6. Senior U.S. officials at the time were more concerned about a wag the dog-type situation when it came to Iran -- Neil.

CAVUTO: All right, Jennifer Griffin, thank you very much.

To Andy McCarthy right now, former assistant U.S. attorney.

Just a routine conversation, Andy. If it is just a routine conversation, where are we?

ANDY MCCARTHY, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, there's nothing routine about what was going on in this country from October through January, obviously.

But I do think, Neil, that, if it's true that General Milley was acting under the auspices of the secretary of defense and the president's own chief of staff, then this story is probably much ado about nothing, and we have reason, as we have had in the past, to be a little bit skeptical about Bob Woodward's reporting and his reporting methods.

But there doesn't -- I doubt the story will have much in the way of legs.

CAVUTO: What would make cross into treason, where you are usurping or doing an end-run around the commander in chief?

I know these same kind of issues came up back in 1974, when James Schlesinger was the defense secretary. It was Richard Nixon's final weeks and months in office. There was great concern that the president was just sort of losing his control of things, and that those around him were concerned.

But there were no calls, to my knowledge, at the time to either the then- Soviet Union or anyone else who might wish us ill. Is there a difference there?

MCCARTHY: Yes, I think there's two levels of this -- of this situation that are concerning, Neil.

The first, which was most concerning to me, and I'm sure to most people, is the bedrock principle in our system of civilian control of our government, including the military. So, if you believe that General Milley had gone rogue and was basically, without clearing it with his chain of command up to the White House, making his own foreign policy with China, that would be a very serious and significant departure from the American system.

I think we're past that now. And the question is, if he was acting with the knowledge of Esper and the chief of staff, the question is, did the president's Cabinet part company with the president, which isn't supposed to happen?

I think that's a less serious issue, only because the civilian control of the military is such an important issue. But, obviously, if the president has one policy, and his subordinates, even the ones who were confirmed by the Senate, are undermining that policy, that's -- at the very least, it's a firing offense.

CAVUTO: Does that include if, let's say, General Milley was working at the behest of the defense secretary, a civilian defense secretary, that, in other words, it's not coming from the military commander? The defense secretary is obviously the military command, I get that, but that there is a difference there?

MCCARTHY: Right.

Right. The secretary of defense is a civilian who has direct-line Cabinet connection to the president. So, then we don't have to worry about the military going off and going rogue.

CAVUTO: Right.

MCCARTHY: And then the only question is, is the president controlling his administration? That is, the attorney general, the secretary of defense, the secretary of state, are they following the president's policy, or are they off on their own?

CAVUTO: We don't know.

Finally, we know this much, that there was never any military strike against China or anyone else, for that matter.

MCCARTHY: Right.

CAVUTO: And we do know that Donald Trump, not pleased with the election results and to this day questioning whether they were rigged, in fact, outright saying so, but he still left office January 20.

So none of this transpired at all. What do you think?

MCCARTHY: Right.

And there's no inkling that President Trump was going to haul off and do anything crazy with respect to China. On the other hand, I think, if Secretary Esper was worried that the Chinese would get spooked and do something reckless on their own, as long as he wasn't undermining something specific that President Trump directed, I think he was within his authority to take measures to try to keep that situation simmered down.

CAVUTO: Should he have told, whether it's treasonous or not, whether it's just going around or not, the president that he was making a phone call to his Chinese counterpart to assure them everything's OK?

MCCARTHY: Should Milley have told?

CAVUTO: Yes.

MCCARTHY: I think, as long as Esper -- the line of communication should be Esper and the president.

CAVUTO: Not Milley? Not Milley and the president?

MCCARTHY: And as long as Esper knew what Milley was doing, the question is, did Esper -- pardon me?

CAVUTO: Got it.

Not Milley and the president?

(CROSSTALK)

MCCARTHY: No, I think Milley is fine as long...

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: ... Milley doing this on his own -- right.

MCCARTHY: Right.

CAVUTO: Exactly.

All right, I interrupted you there, and interrupted both of our chains of thought.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: Thank you very, very much, Andy.

I have a feeling they're not ending the debate on this. So we will follow it very closely.

In the backdrop for this, of course, is ongoing friction in Asia too with North Korea for the -- what, the second time in about three days here, launching more long-range missiles.

And all of this, some believe, is a reaction to what happened in Afghanistan, more provocative behavior from that part of the world, and now questions as to what do we do about it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, welcome back, everybody?

We're following North Korea very, very closely, because it's certainly been very provocative over these last couple of weeks, for the second time in about three days here, launching long-range cruise missiles, and, again, signs that it plans to continue doing so.

David Tafuri joins us right now, the former State Department official, the former Obama foreign policy adviser.

David, good to have you back.

What do you make of the timing of all of this? I recently had Leon Panetta, President Obama's defense secretary, who was worried about a Bay of Pigs- type reaction to what went down in Afghanistan, and that this might be an example of that. What do you think?

DAVID TAFURI, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: I think your audience should be wondering, as you asked, why now and what is the Biden administration's response?

I think the why now could in part be that Kim Jong-un sees some vulnerability on the part of the Biden administration because it has faced such heavy criticism as a result of the withdrawal from Afghanistan and how we withdrew.

I think, also, North Korea knew that South Korea was planning some missile tests, and that may also be the reason why North Korea did this now.

And, furthermore, there were joint military exercises with South Korea a couple of weeks ago in August. And that may also have irritated Kim Jong-un and North Korea and caused them to do this.

And then, more broadly, I think North Korea still wants what it's always wanted, which is, it wants sanctions relief, and it wants to remind the Biden administration that it's continuing to increase its weapons capability. And until it gets significant sanctions relief, it's not going to stop developing weapons and its nuclear arsenal.

I think, also, the other question that everyone should be wondering about is, what is the Biden administration going to do? The Biden administration rolled out its policy on North Korea back in April. It was supposed to be a policy that was something in between the Trump policy and the Obama policy, the Obama policy being, we're not going to do anything with North Korea until North Korea shows it wants to give up nuclear weapons.

CAVUTO: Right.

TAFURI: And Trump saying, we're -- it's an all for all. We want you to give up all your weapons, and we will give you all the sanctions relief.

Biden wants to do something in between, step by step. North Korea, you do something that shows you're willing to give up your nuclear arsenal, and we will do something in terms of some limited sanctions relief.

But, so far, there haven't been any of those steps yet. And, of course, this is a setback.

CAVUTO: Yes, but it seems like, no matter tack you take, whether you try to do it with hugs, or whether you try to do it with sort of a stick, North Korea still does what it does.

I'm just wondering now, in light of what happened in Afghanistan and China getting a little bit more provocative of its own, saying that it's had it with U.S. carriers in the South China Sea, as if China owned the South China Sea, and now threatening that it might have similar vessels off the U.S. -- off U.S. waters, it's accelerating.

I don't think I'm missing that, David. What does the president have to do to convince people that Afghanistan was a one-off, if that is what he's hinting at?

TAFURI: Well, I think the president has to be careful not to overreact to what North Korea is doing, right?

We want to show strength. We want to show a continuation in policy from all of the past presidents who were not willing to agree to allow North Korea to have nuclear weapons. I think President Biden, even more maybe then his predecessor, President Trump, wants to work very closely with our allies, particularly the allies most impacted by this, South Korea and Japan, to have a unified front.

But we also have to work with China, because China and Russia have some more influence in North Korea. And we have got to get all of those countries to help us to find a plan. It can be this step-by-step plan, but we need to start taking steps towards North Korea starting to denuclearize, starting to show it's going to not develop more missile technology.

CAVUTO: Right.

TAFURI: And then there could be some limited sanctions relief to reward them for that.

CAVUTO: We shall watch it closely.

David, thank you very, very much. Good seeing you again.

In the meantime, back here in this country, the quest for real estate and a bubble, some call it, that just won't burst, but, of course, an example could be Shaquille O'Neal.

He's had a devil of a time unloading his Florida mansion, and doesn't Ashley Webster know it?

Ashley.

(LAUGHTER)

ASHLEY WEBSTER, FOX NEWS BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Neil, you're absolutely right.

Shaq is asking $16.5 million for this state. So what do you get for that kind of money? I'm going to show you right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: You know, it is a hot real estate market even still, but for Shaquille O'Neal, he's had a real problem selling his mansion he bought back in the early '90s in Florida. He hopes to correct that now.

But Ashley Webster has had a chance to sort of look at this house.

And it's a monster isn't it, Ashley?

WEBSTER: It is. Well, it's Shaq-like. Let's be honest. It's oversized. It's 31,000 square feet, 31,000 square feet. Remarkable.

You mentioned he bought it back in '93 for $3.95 million. He had just been the first draft pick the year before by the Orlando Magic, a young man, 21 years old, with all this money. He buys this; 20-odd years later, he tries to sell it in 2018 for $28 million. No takers. Today, it's on the market that $16.5 million.

And we're now starting to get some interest. Let me bring in the agent here, Benjamin Hillman.

Benjamin, you are with Sotheby's.

Is this priced correctly now? Is $16.5 million a fair price?

BENJAMIN HILLMAN, PREMIER SOTHEBY'S: Ashley, it's priced great.

WEBSTER: OK. You getting interest?

HILLMAN: The phone is ringing daily.

WEBSTER: And is Shaq happy to take such a horrible cut from $28 million to $16.5 million?

HILLMAN: I think reality has set in now. So he's kind of -- he's ready to move on to bigger and better things.

WEBSTER: All right. Well, he can do that., of course. He's everywhere. He's on every commercial on television, it seems like.

So, Neil, listen, you get, look, 17-car garage, a 6,000-foot -- square foot indoor basketball court. You get 12 bedrooms, 11 baths. The list goes on and on, 95-foot-long swimming pool with a waterfall, of course.

But perhaps the most interesting thing is the successful buyer actually gets to have dinner with Shaq. And we are told he will pick up the tab, which is very generous of him.

CAVUTO: Why has he had difficulty selling it?

I mean, maybe that 28 thing got a little too greedy or whatever. Now it's down to 16. It's still going to go, if it goes at that price, at four times the price he bought it, but what's the problem? Is it to Shaq?

WEBSTER: It is.

It's funny you should use that. In fact, Benjamin here said he kind of had to de-Shaq it a little bit, take down all of the memorabilia, the massive round bed in the master bedroom. There was an image -- there was a statue of Superman on the dock here. All of that is gone.

It's been changed a little bit. It's been de-Shaqified. And he thinks that has helped more buyers come in.

CAVUTO: What's the restaurant that Shaq is willing to take you to if you buy it? Better not be a McDonald's.

WEBSTER: Well, I asked.

I -- well, I asked that. Fleming's, apparently. He loves Fleming's and a good steak. And who doesn't?

CAVUTO: Oh, OK. Very good steak.

WEBSTER: Yes.

CAVUTO: You got it. Got it.

WEBSTER: Yes.

CAVUTO: You have been hanging around there all day. Methinks that you're at buyer, but, I mean, we will see.

Ashley, you're the best. Thank you very much.

By the way, this is just the wave now, real estate and the fascination with it. And beginning next week on FOX Business, we have got some darned great shows just exploring all facets of it.

The "American Dream Home" with Cheryl Casone starts next Tuesday at 8:00 p.m., "Mansion Global" with Kacie McDonnell 9:00 p.m.

This is all the rage. A lot of people aren't keen on stocks, but, man, oh, man, they love real estate. I don't know if they are keen on buying Shaq's home, but a lot of homes.

Here comes "The Five."

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