'Your World' on crisis in Afghanistan, evacuation efforts

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Kirk Lippold: The US is 'not doing everything we could do in Afghanistan'

Former USS Cole Commander Kirk Lippold discusses rescue missions in Kabul, Afghanistan on ‘Your World.’

This is a rush transcript from "Your World," August 20, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: All right, we're continuing to monitor the State Department presser featuring Ned Price, a spokesman there, but a couple of developments I want to pass along to you right now.

We're getting word from our Jennifer Griffin that there are 14,000 Afghans inside the Kabul International Airport grounds. But pending flights that were supposed to take off to Qatar, they're not -- they're not taking any more for the time being. So you have a situation where many are seated on the tarmac in idle C-17s.

So we don't know what the status of that is, what's behind -- the significance of this delay. Remember, there was some word earlier today the Qatar, which is processing a lot of the visa paperwork for those who will ultimately make their way out of the country, was simply overwhelmed. And they were talking about reinforcing that with more people.

Then, separately, we're hearing right now two House makers on a call with the defense secretary, Lloyd Austin, have apparently passed along reports that Americans in the country have in fact been beaten by the Taliban in Kabul. This would be contrary to what the president had said just about 45 minutes ago, when he was speaking to the nation about this.

Jacqui Heinrich is on that story, joins us now at the White House.

What do we know about this, Jacqui?

JACQUI HEINRICH, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, I know from those lawmakers that I talked to that the defense secretary, Lloyd Austin, said that there were reports that Americans had been beaten by the Taliban trying to get to the airport.

I don't have more detail on exactly what was said. But it certainly contradicts what the president said, that he was not aware of any instances where Americans had difficulty getting to the -- getting to the airport or had any sort of trouble with the Taliban.

Beyond that, I was in the East Room with the president. And there were a number of things that he said that left even me a little bit confused. It was unclear whether he intends to use the U.S. military to go beyond the airport to do any sort of rescue operations.

He did go a step beyond what he had said earlier in this week. He said that any American who wants to get home will be able to. And he did extend that offer to the Afghan allies and refugees who assisted in the war effort. But it was not clear how he intends for that to be carried out.

He said, so far, there's been no problem getting Americans through the Taliban checkpoints. But bear in mind the very documents that any refugee applicants would need to get on these flights are exactly what will get them killed by the Taliban.

Here's what the president said that was so vague.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Let me be clear. Any American wants to come home, we will get you home.

But make no mistake, this evacuation mission is dangerous. It involves risks to our armed forces, and it's being conducted under difficult circumstances.

I cannot promise what the final outcome will be or what it will be -- that it will be without risk of loss.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEINRICH: The president did, however, clear up questions about whether he saw a confidential dissent cable from the State Department employees on the ground in Kabul back in mid-July warning of a potential collapse of Kabul soon after the withdrawal deadline.

It was sent directly the Secretary of State Antony Blinken. And the president indicated that he took action based on a range of opinions. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: We got all kinds of cables, all kinds of advice.

Have you noticed? They range from this group saying that -- they didn't it would fall when it would fall -- when it did fall, but saying that it would fall, to others saying I wouldn't happen for a long time and they would be able to sustain themselves through the end of the year.

I made the decision.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEINRICH: Now, the president reiterated this is one of the largest, most difficult airlifts in history. He made a point of saying that it presents risks to U.S. armed forces, something that he takes personally, given his son's service in Iraq.

Now, that seemed to be setting the stage potentially for a military rescue operation. But, again, it is very unclear. And, of course, what we gather is that these assessments are being sort of reevaluated day to day.

However, the president did say that when the mission is finished, the U.S. will complete its military withdrawal and finally bring an end to 20 years of war in that country, leaving open the possibility, it sounded like, that troops would remain there beyond the August 31 deadline, something that he has said over and over this week and other Cabinet officials have said over and over this week that we thought we were on target for.

This seemed to leave that door open a little bit more than each other time we have heard updates, Neil.

CAVUTO: Very good reporting, Jacqui.

A couple of questions that I have here, because I was confused as well. When the president left himself open to a rescue mission, did that mean, because it doesn't right now, that our soldiers would go right up to that Taliban-controlled perimeter and, if necessary, pierce it and go into Kabul, as a number of other countries already are, to get their people?

HEINRICH: Well, we don't know.

CAVUTO: Yes.

HEINRICH: Rescue mission could mean a number of things.

And as we know from our sourcing, that the State Department is looking to non-military ways to stage and move Americans from around the Kabul area. I got that confirmed yesterday, based on source material that I had. But we don't know exactly what rescue operation means.

Unless it carries the word military in front of it, it could mean a lot of things. So, until the president indicates that he's given that order, we have heard from the State Department, we have heard from the Pentagon that this is the mission right now and that the president has said this is the - - these are the restrictions, these are the guardrails.

I gather it would have to come from him. But we don't know exactly by what means he plans to make good on that promise that any American who wants to get out can come home and that he was extending that also to our allies -- Neil.

CAVUTO: Jacqui, thank you very, very much.

Just to update you on the importance of this distinction between whether we stay put within that cordoned-off area within the airport or venture out to the perimeter that you have seen the Taliban set up all around the airport, it comes at a time we're getting reports that Great Britain is speeding up its own evacuations of nearly 1,000 in just the last 24 hours.

And that is outside the so-called Green Zone in Kabul itself. Germany, meanwhile, has dispatched military helicopters to get people out. We don't know if they have been activated, and we don't know how many are involved.

Separately, we're hearing reports that an elite team of French police officers have entered the capital's so-called Green Zone to do the same.

We have not mimicked that type of activity or followed up on it.

And that's a big question to kick off with Kirk Lippold, who joins us right now, the former USS Cole commander.

Commander, always good seeing you.

What do you make of what these European countries are doing to get their people out and what we are doing?

KIRK LIPPOLD, FORMER COMMANDER, USS COLE: Well, Neil, thank you for having me on.

CAVUTO: Thank you.

LIPPOLD: But I think what it shows right off the bat is that the military, for the mission that they have been giving, is doing a phenomenal job.

What you do have, however, is a degree of comfort by the generals back in Washington, along with the senior civilian officials like Secretary Austin, and the president of the United States, who are risk-averse.

The fact that we are pinned down and negotiating terms of surrender within the Kabul Airport perimeter, when other countries have said we can't rely on the United States to safely evacuate our citizens out in a timely manner, so we're going to go outside and into Kabul itself, indicates that we in fact, are not doing everything we could do, that we could do a lot more and should be doing more.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: Is that the only way to get them, though, Commander?

Is it your understanding, sir -- I'm sorry, I just want to be clear on this -- that with the Taliban controlling that perimeter, obviously, Britain, Germany, France, and maybe others that I'm missing have concluded that they are not going to trust the Taliban to handle that, they will take matters into their own hands.

Best we can understand, the Taliban has not disrupted that, but, again, you don't know. So, our marching orders, or at least our soldiers' marching orders, and those within the cordoned-off airport area are to stay there and not go outside that perimeter yet.

Do you think that if this escalates or there's a great difficulty getting more Americans, Afghan American -- Afghans friendly to Americans and our cause there when we were there, that that would be advisable?

LIPPOLD: Neil, what I think you're witnessing is a risk-averse military, senior military leadership that doesn't want to risk American lives to do what is necessary to bring every American home.

While the president says we will bring every American home, we have to incur a degree of risk to do it. What he is worried about is the fact that he has created the conditions where American lives, American soldiers might be lost in operations to go out beyond this.

If we're in fact talking to the Taliban, we should be able to go out and get American citizens that safe corridor to get into the airport to get them out. The fact that we're not doing that and other nations are is clearly indicative that, right now, we're risk-averse and unwilling to do what's necessary, despite what the president promised the American people.

CAVUTO: All right.

Well, we do know that the Taliban are not necessarily always keeping their word. They said they weren't going house to house and ferreting out those loyal to the government. We know, in fact, they were. They said they weren't going after women up for going outside without burqas. And, of course, now we have clear evidence that they have done just that.

We know that their statements again and again that they're not doing anything to stop or thwart individuals who want to get through that barrier to go to the airport, but there are tens of thousands outside the airport who are stymied and can't get there.

Now, we have been arguing that it's a processing issue, that they don't have the paperwork to clear out there, that other situations and countries that are handling this paperwork, like Qatar, they're overwhelmed and can't get them the important visas and whatever they need to leave. And that might explain one plane that can't take off as a result.

But it does stretch credulity to think that the Taliban is just going to say, come right in, come right in, come right in. What do you think?

LIPPOLD: Neil, the number one mission right now is to get Americans and these Afghans out of the country.

If you're being held up because of paperwork, that's some bureaucrat back in Washington who is jeopardizing lives in the comfort of their office either at the Department of Defense or Department of State.

Get these people in, get them on an aircraft, get them out of country, get them to any country that we can get them, and we will process them later. But the bottom line right now is, stop with the bureaucracy. Let's start with effective combat leadership. And let's get these Americans, let's get these Afghans out of the country.

And to do otherwise shows that we are, in fact, risk-averse and that we do not want to do what's necessary to safeguard our national security interests.

CAVUTO: Commander, thank you very, very much, and for your incredible service to this country.

People always forget what you dealt with. The wave of terrorism, it all really started the year before 9/11 with your ship and its fine men and women.

I do want to go to Chris Swecker right now, the former FBI assistant director.

Chris, the reason why I'm kind of curious how we are deciding who gets or who is deciding on those planes and who could slip through the cracks. I mean, in the mad rush to get people to safety, do you concern yourself with nefarious characters who might get through? And the Taliban is inviting them through.

CHRIS SWECKER, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: That 100 percent is a concern, Neil.

I mean, we really don't -- I have seen 600, 800 people on one cargo plane. I don't think they could have possibly vetted all of them, given the chaotic nature of the circumstances at the airport. So they can -- terrorists could blend in. That's been our fear all along, that foreign fighters off the battlefield would find their way to the United States. And we're back at 9/11 again.

CAVUTO: So, we don't know who's getting on these plans. We hope most are indeed asylum cases, but just the sheer numbers, even if 1 percent are not, that obviously could be a problem.

But we're just hearing from the U.S. State Department presser that we have been monitoring, Chris, that the Taliban have assured us -- quoting here -- "that they will allow Afghans who wish to leave the country to do so after August 31." So that deadline at which time we wanted all American personnel out of Afghanistan, they seem to say they will accommodate that.

Do you trust them?

SWECKER: Absolutely not.

And I would say this, Neil. Anybody who comes out who has family or any relatives back in the country are immediately subject to extortion and strong-arming, and there's no telling what they can force these people to do. So you could have good guys coming out, but their family are back there and they're hostages, essentially.

And you want to protect your family, you will do what you're told. That's been the case with terrorists for quite a while. They are extremely Machiavellian.

CAVUTO: Yes. And you have a past with that.

We are also told that the Taliban is stepping up its hunt for Afghans who once worked for the U.S. or NATO. And this was a confidential threat assessment that was drafted by the United Nations. If that is going on, it could explain why there's hesitancy outside the airport, especially those getting to the airport, if there is sort of that kind of a screening process going on.

SWECKER: Absolutely.

I mean, we have no control over anything other than the airport. So we're blind, we're deaf in Afghanistan right now. We don't have eyes and ears. It was a great platform for intelligence in many different arenas, counterterrorism, counterintelligence. We just don't have that anymore.

And we're entering an era of very dangerous time for terrorism right now. We have terrorist organizations out in the hinterlands that can operate with impunity again, and it can be a petri dish for terrorists.

CAVUTO: Let me ask you a little bit about maybe -- this is also money show here, this reported $9.5 billion to $10 billion in the former government's accounts have been frozen, so that for the time being the Taliban cannot -- cannot touch it.

And I often think that some people using that as a lever over the Taliban miss the fact that this has never been about money or access or international norms or respect for the international community.

So what kind of a potential threat is that? I mean, does the Taliban look at that and just say, all right, whatever? I'm just curious. Now, obviously, it's a different Taliban with a different responsibility, running the country now, after taking it over in days.

And maybe that is something that they consider, but if we're using that as a potential threat, if they start getting nasty with us or threatening with us, do you think it's going to work?

SWECKER: I don't think so.

I mean, it's some leverage. I mean, they would be happy to have the money, but they just had a windfall of our equipment. Gosh, who knows what they got their hands on now. They just freed 5,000 prisoners, not all of whom are Taliban. Many of them were foreign fighters. Afghanistan has been a honeypot for terrorists. So a good number of those individuals that were freed are hardcore terrorists.

So, you're right, Neil. It's not about the dollars necessarily. They'd like to have them, but that's not leverage, if that's what we're relying on right now.

CAVUTO: Chris Swecker, thank you very, very much.

To Chris' point, what he was just mentioning about the Taliban going from nothing to having an arsenal that would really be the envy of the entire Middle East. If you think about it, $80 billion worth of U.S. arms have made its way to Afghanistan over these many, many years.

They include helicopters and guns, trucks and 24 sniper rifles, M-18 assault weapons, Humvees, airplanes. They have now an air force, something that they didn't have prior, three million rounds of ammunitions.

We got 100,000 2.75-inch rockets, at least 400,000 of other various sizes, all in their hot little hands. And they're going through that as we speak. So, going from nothing to having an arsenal that would be the envy of the region.

Let's get the take on all of this.

Lucas Tomlinson at the Pentagon.

That's quite a cache, not only of weapons, but cachet now in this fight to maintain control in the country. It gives them an incredible advantage, does it not?

LUCAS TOMLINSON, FOX NEWS PENTAGON PRODUCER: Well, that's what officials say, Neil.

And keep in mind, the U.S. funded the Afghan army to the tune of $85 billion over the last 20 years. So, there's now $85 billion worth of weapons. We're not going to go into amortization at the top of your show, Neil.

Back to the Pentagon briefing that I just came out of. The U.S. military is now saying that evacuation flights out of Kabul were delayed six to seven hours because there was no room in Qatar. So now those flights have resumed, but they're not going to the Middle East. They're now going to Europe and to Ramstein Air Base in Germany.

These are the first flights to go from Kabul to Germany to deliver Afghan refugees. Now, President Biden earlier today, he said that one of the reasons he wanted to leave Afghanistan was that Al Qaeda does not have a presence.

Now, this is what he said. And this is what Jennifer Griffin pressed John Kirby on just a few minutes later.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Look, let's put this thing in perspective here. What interests do we have in Afghanistan at this point with al Qaeda gone?

JENNIFER GRIFFIN, FOX NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Military intelligence estimates about how many al Qaeda remain in Afghan?

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: We know that Al Qaeda -- Al Qaeda is a presence, as well as ISIS, in Afghanistan. And we have talked about that for quite some time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TOMLINSON: President Biden also said there was no intelligence that Americans have been having trouble getting from Kabul to the airport. But reports on the ground say otherwise, Neil.

And until now, the U.S. military did not have permission to fly -- from the White House to fly these Afghans directly to the U.S., despite preparations being made at through U.S. military bases, Fort McCoy in Wisconsin, Fort Bliss in Texas, and Fort Lee just south of us in -- outside Richmond, Virginia.

Many Afghans that have been flown out, as well as Americans, 5, 700 in the past 24 hours, Neil, they're maximizing the flights on those C-17s. They can carry 300, now 400 people at a time. So that's good news from the Pentagon.

Now, some evacuees are now being taken, as I mentioned, to Ramstein Air Force Base. The first flights are scheduled to land in the next few hours.

Now, earlier today, FOX News heard from an Air Force C-17 flight crew who on Sunday briefly executed a daring mission, rescuing more than 800 Afghans on board. That's 400 beyond capacity, 823, to be exact, not the 640 as previously reported.

This iconic photo was first published by Defense One. FOX News spoke with Airman 1st Class Nicolas Baron, the loadmaster, and Lieutenant Colonel Eric Kut, who flew the plane. They said there was no time to wear any seat belts.

Now, Neil, there's now about 6,000 U.S. troops on the ground at the airport in Kabul. That's the bulk of the U.S. military deployment to Afghanistan. They're all on the ground.

But those troops will not be leaving the airport because of the risk. even though there are reports the French and British are doing the same. Officials say one the reasons the U.S. are not leaving the base is because of Mogadishu and bad memories of Black Hawk Down -- Neil.

CAVUTO: Lucas, do you have any follow on this report from your colleague Jennifer Griffin that there are pending flights to Qatar that can't take off, that many are just seated on these idle C-17s and unable to do so?

It seemed to be originally because of inadequate documentation or no documentation. But do you know the status now? Have they been able to take off? What's the latest?

TOMLINSON: Neil, there's no question there's a bottleneck in the system right now. That's why planes were not taking off for six or seven hours.

The Qatari government, Qatar said they're full, even though these Afghans are going to a big U.S. military base in Qatar called Al-Udeid. The Qataris are saying they are full. In fact, the Qatar defense minister came to the Pentagon yesterday to meet Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin.

We don't exactly know what transpired. But we do know that visit happened. But, right now, Neil, the flights have resumed, but they're not going to Qatar. They're going to Europe. They're going to Ramstein Air Force Base in Germany. So this mission is expanding away from the Middle East -- Neil.

CAVUTO: So, Lucas, if you can just help me with this, my skull is pretty thick, but something gets through here now and then.

And one thing is the role of our military folks within the airport itself, that they do not go to that perimeter, and that that essentially seems like the marching orders for now.

Do you know that, if Americans are having difficulty getting to that perimeter, let alone through it, that that will change, that the move that we have seen that out of countries like Germany, England and France to do just, that we would do as well; we're just not doing it yet?

TOMLINSON: Well, Neil, we have seen the reports. You have seen the video of a chaotic scene outside the airport.

CAVUTO: Right.

TOMLINSON: There are about 6,000 U.S. troops now on the ground, U.S. Marines, soldiers from the 10th Mountain Division, paratroopers from the 82nd Airborne Division.

General Milley said that there are now special operations forces on the ground right now as well, and, of course, U.S. Embassy personnel trying to process the Afghans. We have heard reports, though, from American citizens trying to get to the airport that, because of the chaotic scene -- Neil, that's the picture there -- we have seen it -- there's thousands of people outside the airport trying to get in.

Simply just raising your hand and saying, I'm an American, when there's Marines and soldiers guarding the base, is very chaotic. The soldiers are having to throw flashbangs, those grenades that explode, non-lethal, of course. But they're loud. It's chaotic. They're firing warning shots.

I think it's just a very difficult and challenging situation on the ground. It's not as easy as, oh, the U.S. military and then the government have talked to the Taliban, and the Taliban are ensuring safe passage. There's a lot of evidence that says otherwise. Americans and, of course, vulnerable Afghans who have helped the U.S. over the last 20 years are having a lot of trouble getting to the airport and getting evacuated, Neil.

CAVUTO: But who checks those people through, Lucas?

I mean, if we're not there, if we're not going to that perimeter...

TOMLINSON: Could be a 23-year-old Sergeant, Neil.

CAVUTO: Right.

TOMLINSON: I mean, this is -- these are American soldiers, American Marines. I mean, these are young men, some women, mostly men, that are standing on the gates.

CAVUTO: Or it could just be the Taliban cleared them through. That would be like the fox clearing the henhouse, right?

I mean...

(CROSSTALK)

TOMLINSON: Well, those are a lot of questions that came up at the briefing.

CAVUTO: Yes.

TOMLINSON: Is there some kind of deconfliction line? How often are -- is the U.S. military speaking with the Taliban? We're told those talks are happening at very high levels. I don't think you're seeing American sergeants talking to their Taliban foot soldier counterparts.

These are high-level discussions that -- are having. But does that filter down to the ground? I think we're seeing evidence it's not, that it's very chaotic outside the airport, and people are having trouble getting there.

CAVUTO: Got it.

All right, Lucas, thank you very, very much.

Want to go to Tom Porter right now. Tom is the Iraq & Afghanistan Veterans of America executive vice president for government affairs.

Tom, thank you for joining us.

Now, the Taliban is saying again and again almost every day that those who want to get out can get out, we're not blocking their way. If this goes beyond August 31, so be it. Do you believe them?

TOM PORTER, IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN VETERANS OF AMERICA: Well, thank you for having me on, Neil. Good to be with you.

Do I believe the Taliban? I don't know of any service member or veteran who believes the Taliban. And we find ourselves -- I hear that we're having conversations with the Taliban about getting our folks through.

I'm just shocked that we're in a situation where we have leaders talking about having to have conversations with the Taliban to keep our people safe. And so that's a difficult situation.

I know that also it's unclear on how safe it is for our people to get through. We hear lots of statements that Americans will be able to get to the airport. However, we just heard in the last couple hours that journalist Clarissa Ward had trouble getting through to the airport.

Now, if someone like her is going to have trouble getting through, how's the average American that's living in the country in Kabul going to get through? This is a huge problem. And the U.S. needs to pull out all the stops. The White House needs to make it a huge priority.

I think it's positive that the president today seemed to grasp more of the enormity of the situation vs. earlier in this week, but we need some follow-through. I think he's kind of sitting back on his heels a bit, and need him to get more of a fighting position on this.

CAVUTO: But, Tom, I can't rely on the consistency of the president's remarks, especially when he said there has been no criticism from our allies.

Just a cursory read of just comments we have heard from top officials around the world from our closest friends, including England and France and Britain, the United Arab Emirates, even in the region.

Britain's Tobias Ellwood, the Defense Committee chair of the British Parliament, was saying, whatever happened to America is back? He went on to say: "People are bewildered. After two decades of this big high-tech power intervening, they're withdrawing and effectively handing the country back to the people we went into defeat."

A French foreign minister saying: "This is why we have to take matters into our own hands."

The veterans that and understand so well, they have got to be apoplectic at all of this and just flabbergasted.

PORTER: You're right. You're right, Neil. And I appreciate you mentioning that.

Veterans' opinions are all over the board, as you can imagine. They come from all over the country. And so there's not one veteran experience or not one veteran opinion that -- as we say at IAVA, if you talk to one veteran, you talk to one veteran.

But what I can see is consistent throughout many of the veterans that I talk to is that, whether or not they wanted to come home 15 years ago, or 20 years from now, almost everybody has is describing this in chaotic and disastrous terms, and that it wasn't planned for.

I don't know anybody that says that this was appropriately planned for. And this is something that we need to get out of now. We need to make this a priority. These are allies that laid down their lives for us. They risked their lives so that they could stand shoulder to shoulder with us in the worst times, in combat.

And this is something that we have promised them safe passage for. And to leave them behind is unforgivable. So we need to do all we can really to get them to safety, whatever it takes. And that -- it's not to mention the Americans, of course, that still remain in Afghanistan, and we can't just depend on them and our Afghan allies to make it to the airport.

We need to do whatever it takes to get them to the airport and get them to safety.

CAVUTO: You know, Tom, when you take a look at who's deciding who gets through -- and, right now, largely, it's the Taliban, as best I can study it -- and they say that anyone and everyone who wants to get out can on this sort of can, I'm just sort of conflating their prior statements where that is the understanding, yet I hear they still go house to house to ask about those who might have had ties to the old government or friendships with the United States or NATO.

That doesn't sound like a Taliban that is letting anyone and everyone who wants to go, go. In fact, that sounds like a Taliban that is like the old Taliban, targeting those who it claims are traitors or worked with the great Satan, the United States. They have just found a different way of presenting that.

But this we come in peace and we're a different bunch of folks now just doesn't jibe with the reality we're hearing on the ground, does it?

PORTER: You're right, Neil.

And just because they may have hired a P.R. firm doesn't mean that we should go out and believe them. I already know, by talking to friends of mine and other veterans that are trying desperately to get their former partners or Afghan allies and interpreters and analysts out of the country, I already know -- I have seen on Twitter reporters and Afghan citizens that have partnered with us that are saying that -- and then there's videos to go along with it for proof -- that Taliban are going door to door looking for these Afghans.

They're looking for them. They're taking some people out, and they're beating them. They're threatening them. They're threatening their families. They're kidnapping people. Don't believe the Taliban. Anybody that does is not thinking straight.

This is something we need to put all the -- pull all the stops out to be able to get them to safety.

CAVUTO: Tom, thank you very much, not only for your own looking out for our interests and our country's interest and freedom's interests, but representing Iraq and Afghan veterans all over the world who must now be looking at this and saying, what was it for? What was it for?

Thank you very much, Tom.

PORTER: Thank you.

CAVUTO: I do want to bring in David Tafuri right now. Of course, he's been looking at foreign policy relationships and everything going back to the Obama administration and beyond.

David, good to have you.

I caught a comment you made earlier, tweeted. I hope I got it right, where you said: "I wrote a couple of years ago of what I feared. We should not withdraw U.S. troops unless we have a deal that leaves some hope for preserving our hard-fought gains and the chance for a political process that will lead to a reduction of the endless violence there."

It is fair to say we did not.

DAVID TAFURI, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Yes, I wrote that two years ago.

And I was thinking a lot then, as I have since, about how we would leave Afghanistan. And I felt very strongly that we couldn't leave it in a way where the Taliban would be able to completely take over and sink Afghanistan back into the Dark Ages, as it was the last time that the Taliban ruled in the 1990s.

And the deal that President Trump entered into in February 2020, when he signed a deal with the Taliban, was predicated on the idea that the Taliban was different. And the Biden administration followed that deal also, also hoping that the Taliban was different.

We still don't know for sure, but we're starting to see hints of a Taliban that's pretty similar to the old Taliban. And the anecdotes about the Taliban not letting people into the airport, the anecdotes about the Taliban searching for people who are allied with the U.S. and going door to door are really scary.

And that's where this story is headed, is, what is the Taliban going to do next? They're going to set up a government. Is it going to be an extreme government like it had in the '90s? Is it going to engage in reprisal killings? That's really scary.

That's really scary from a humanitarian perspective. It's also really scary, politically, I think, for the Biden administration, because if this story continues in that trajectory, it's going to really hurt President Biden, unfortunately.

CAVUTO: David, you were working in the Obama administration.

One thing that struck me as a curious remark that Biden had made is that he had inherited this policy from President Trump on dealing with the Taliban and the deal that was made and the number of soldiers and that he said he was kind of locked into it. I'm paraphrasing.

And I'm thinking to myself, well, you ripped up everything else that Donald Trump wanted to do by executive order or other fiat. So why didn't, if you thought, in retrospect, this was a mistake, why didn't you change it?

TAFURI: Well, President Biden is right in this way, and I think it's really important to understand this.

Trump signed the deal in February 2020, and he created expectations with the Taliban that we were going to pull our troops out. And, also, he reduced a lot our troops by the time President Biden had taken over. So Biden was faced with a choice of -- it wasn't sort of a brand-new choice where he could just start from fresh.

He had to either break the deal with the Taliban and face the results of that. And, certainly, the Taliban had promised, if you break this deal, and you don't pull out the troops, like President Trump promised, we're going to have a new offensive, there's going to be new violence, and Biden would have had to put in more troops, and maybe that would have been -- maybe that would have been the right decision.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: The Trump deal didn't have a contingent numbers to it.

In other words, it didn't say 2, 500 troops or that. There was nothing like that. So, if he had concern, or his people had concern that President Trump had gone too far in reducing personnel in the area -- and I know he moved enough to say that the end -- the May deadline that the Trump was looking at was too soon, too premature, so he pushed it back.

TAFURI: Right.

CAVUTO: But if he was able and willing to do that, and now, in retrospect, he seems to be throwing a lot of shade and blame on the prior administration for this, this is on him, isn't it?

TAFURI: Well, my understanding, as you mentioned, is President Biden actually pushed it back as far as he could.

The Taliban basically told him, we want you all out by May, like President Trump promised. The Biden administration negotiated until September.

And the Taliban said, that's it. If you go beyond September, we're back at war. It's a new offensive. And the Biden administration could have said, OK, that's fine. We're ready to go back to war with you.

And maybe that's what we should have done, because that's where we have leverage. But when the Biden administration decided to follow the Trump decision to pull out all of the troops, we lost our leverage.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: But, David, it doesn't make any sense. I'm not here to play politics. This is not a show that goes through -- sees things through the prism of politics. I don't care what the political views are.

But if you're willing to change completely a climate change policy, reverse something that Donald Trump did, fine. If you're willing to assess our relationship with Europe and whether the prior administration went too far, fine.

But if you're going to then all of a sudden say we were kind of locked into this agreement we had with the Taliban, when, in fact, you overturned everything else that the prior administration did, and somehow clung to this because it was kind of your only choice, you can't have it both ways, right?

TAFURI: Yes, I'm probably not communicating this correctly.

What I'm trying to say is, the Biden administration was not locked in. It could have scrapped the deal. But if it had scrapped the deal, it would then escalating the war with the Taliban.

So it had a choice of follow the deal that Trump put in place or have a significant escalation in the war with the Taliban.

CAVUTO: All right, I understand. So it is what it is. And here's where we are.

I just want to get your thought. Do you think now that this can be corrected, that these people can get out, and the administration can claim what it was making a claim to be today, that things are improving and this will all go OK?

TAFURI: Well, you're asking me to predict what's going to happen. And nobody's been good at predicting what's going to happen.

CAVUTO: You're right.

TAFURI: But what I think will happen is that our -- we have great -- we have great soldiers who are committed. We have State Department people now working really hard on this as well.

I think -- I believe in our U.S. government personnel, that they will accomplish this. They will get most people out. But there will be some friends of Americans who can't make it to the airport, and we're going to have to make a decision, are we going to send out special forces to go and rescue them?

CAVUTO: All right.

TAFURI: And that's going to be a big a tough question, because that's going to put us at loggerheads with the Taliban. There may be some more fighting.

I think we will accomplish the evacuation. But I also think we're in for more tragedy in Kabul.

CAVUTO: I hope you're wrong, but you're probably right.

David Tafuri, thank you very, very much.

I want to go to my colleague and friend Bret Baier of "Special Report."

Bret, you try to take everyone at their word when they say this, even the president of the United States. But when he said that he's not heard a critical word from foreign allies, and you and I know -- and you have been reporting extensively on your show -- quite the opposite.

They have made it very clear how they feel, so much so that some of them, including Britain, France, and Germany, are going in and getting their people themselves and going outside that perimeter, rather than deal with who gets inside of that perimeter.

What do you make of all that?

BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Well, that's a huge deal, Neil.

And, listen, I love Dave Tafuri. And I think he has some interesting points. But the forest through the trees here is, we are where we are. And the -- you can't hinder the military's ability to get these people out of there.

The fact that the U.S. military is at this airport, and is not going out and getting people like the Brits and the French, the Aussies, and the fact that the president of the United States came out and said he hasn't heard reports about Americans having trouble getting to the airport, and then, an hour later, the defense secretary on a call with lawmakers said, yes, we have reports of Americans being beaten by the Taliban on the way to the airport, where's the disconnect here?

The fact that the president said he hasn't heard criticism from allies, and yet we're hearing criticism from allies openly on the floor of the House of Parliament in Great Britain, there is something that's happening here, Neil.

And I don't know exactly where the disconnect is. But the biggest thing is to be able to get our military to get those people out.

CAVUTO: Now the question is whether we will sort of unshackle the military that might have these marching orders, if that is indeed the case, not to go to that perimeter or go beyond that perimeter.

I understand the administration's concern about whether that ignites still more problems. But are we at that point where to get all of these people out, including Afghan friends and loyalists to the old government and the United States and NATO, that they're worth it, that we will do that, because that's the only way to do it?

BAIER: A hundred percent. Every American is worth it. Even all these Afghans who work with us are worth it.

We have the biggest, best military in the world. There is nothing we cannot do if the leadership decides to give them -- unshackle them to do it. Now, is it going to cause some dust-ups with the Taliban? Are there going to be shoot-outs? Who knows?

But we have the ability. We're the biggest dog on the block. And we should be able to get these people out safely. And there should not be a question here.

And the fact that there is and this back-and-forth is really quite something about the leadership now.

CAVUTO: All right now, this -- the effort to get these people out, it just struck me as odd, Bret, that it comes down to you need paperwork, that you need paperwork to get out.

I get that. You just -- not anyone and everyone can get on a plane and get through. And I know the questions -- in fact, it's already a legitimate concern, who is getting on those planes? But the idea that we weren't even ready for the processing of this to handle visas or to contract it out to a Qatar or some of these other entities that are now stepping forward to say, all right, we can help you handle this, none of that came up.

BAIER: Right.

CAVUTO: There was no planning for that.

BAIER: Right.

And the fact that the words out of the White House is every contingency was planned for, well, not this one, not -- you didn't want it to go like this. The president said to George Stephanopoulos there was going to be chaos.

There didn't have to be. And I think that the biggest thing that was said that there's no Al Qaeda presence in Afghanistan, that is such a disconnect from every single intelligence person and military leader that I have talked to over the past couple of days.

And General Jack Keane, I heard him earlier, pretty fired up about it.

CAVUTO: You know, the president said: "We will get you home. Make no mistake, this evacuation mission is dangerous and involves a risk to our armed forces," but, again, emphasizing however long it takes.

This could take some time, well beyond August 31, right?

BAIER: A hundred percent.

And there's a lot of danger in it. There is a lot of danger. And you just mentioned one of the things. We don't know now -- because they're opening up all of the no papers, no checking, everybody gets on, we don't know exactly who's getting on. And that's an important thing too.

But Americans should be able to get to that airport with our help.

CAVUTO: That's the very least they can expect.

All right, Bret Baier, thank you. I know you're going to be all over this one hour from now, I suspect. My friend, thank you very, very much for that.

Again, just to update you, we're told now that these planes are once again getting out of Kabul to get to destinations anywhere but Afghanistan, but it's not easy. And for our military on the ground and at the airport, it's not smooth, to say the least.

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