'Your World' on Omicron variant, Build Back Better

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'We ought not be fearing' COVID: Former HHS secretary

Dr. Tom Price reveals how contagious and severe the omicron variant is on 'Your World.'

This is a rush transcript of "Your World with Neil Cavuto" on December 8, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: More contagious, but less dangerous, and news just today that maybe Omicron will be much less dangerous.

Welcome, everybody. I'm Neil Cavuto, and this is "Your World."

And don't look now, but the fix is in, or on, or close. It's not bad, because, suddenly, a COVID variant that has stumped and scared the world might end up being far less menacing than feared. That's because of two startling developments, one, news from Pfizer that a third jab of its vaccine partially protects against the Omicron virus and from, well, drug giant GlaxoSmithKline, reporting its own antibody treatment that appears to work on Omicron mutations.

Now, are these cures? No. Could they be relief? Yes, and then some. No less than Pfizer's CEO convinced that COVID could be under control by mid-next year, and a big investment firm all but calling it a certainty. Some doctors caution we might be getting ahead of our syringe skis here, but even skeptics are relieved that thus far Omicron fears are not panning out, and the news like this does not hurt.

Now, we have got you covered with these stunning developments today with the former Health and Human Services Secretary Tom Price in just a moment.

First to Molly Line in Boston with the very latest.

Hey, Molly.

MOLLY LINE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Neil.

You said it. This latest headline-making variant is being tracked all across the country, but there is this positive news that treatments, that vaccines are continuing to work against coronavirus, even as we're beginning to see hospitals strain under the recent surge all across the country.

Here I am in Massachusetts, but from Massachusetts to Hawaii, Omicron has been traced, has been tracked, detected in 21 states across the country. Though health officials report Omicron may spread more swiftly, there is some cautious optimism that the illness may not be as severe.

Newly released data from Pfizer shows three doses is the trick needed to neutralize the Omicron variant, Pfizer noting that lab studies showing that third dose increases antibodies by 25-fold. The report directly coming from Pfizer comes after a South African study showed the Pfizer vaccine was less effective against Omicron than older variants of the coronavirus, but still offered some protection.

Today, President Biden noted the news.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Pfizer lab report came back saying that the expectation is that the existing vaccines protect against Omicron. But if you get the booster, you're really in good shape.

And so that's very encouraging.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LINE: And GlaxoSmithKline reports its research shows the company's COVID- 19 antibody treatment dubbed sotrovimab is effective against Omicron's mutations.

Lab tests done in vitro against a synthesized version of the virus showed the drug worked, remaining active against the dozens of mutations on Omicron's spike protein.

Tempering that good news, many state leaders are monitoring climbing case numbers and instituting new restrictions. At least 32 hospitals in Upstate New York are being forced to stop nonessential surgeries, per an emergency order from Governor Kathy Hochul that blocks surgeries based on low bed capacity.

And there is breaking news out of Maine. Governor Janet Mills has activated the state's National Guard to help ease capacity constraints at hospitals up there under increasing strain amid a sustained surge of COVID cases.

This new release notes, though, that the vast majority of those hospitalized are not fully vaccinated -- Neil.

CAVUTO: All right, Molly Line, thank you very, very much.

So, you keep hearing this, contagious, but less dangerous, when referring it to this virus variant.

To former Health and Human Services Secretary Tom Price on the significance of all of this.

Secretary, good to have you back.

TOM PRICE, FORMER U.S. HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: Hey, Neil.

CAVUTO: There's still so much we don't know about Omicron, particularly how it hits certain countries disproportionately. But, even there, the cases don't appear to be nearly as severe as some had feared.

What do you make of what's going on and the news that already available treatments and booster shots might go a long way toward alleviating how bad this gets?

PRICE: No, exactly.

And with this new variant, the Omicron variant, as you will recall, a week or two ago, there was a lot of discussion about we need a little time to learn more, and we have learned more.

The fact of the matter is that it appears that it seems to be increasing in its transmissibility, it's easier to catch, but the disease that you get, the illness that you get isn't as severe. It also appears that the vaccines that individuals have taken to date will decrease the incidence of severe disease, but you probably need that booster, and so that you can get your antibody level up, you can get the fighting immunity up in your own body up to be able to fight against this new variant.

CAVUTO: You know, I'm just wondering too, Secretary, if we have reached a point, if this does spread far and fast, but it's not severe, in a weird way, are we hitting some sort of a natural immunity level, or an antibody situation, where we don't have to fear as much, let's say, a lethal spread of COVID?

PRICE: Well, we ought not be fearing this. We ought to figure out how to handle it and live with it, as we have talked about.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: By the way, when you say live with it, Secretary, that it's going to be around a while, that it's not going away. Others have expressed that as just the new reality.

PRICE: Yes, I think that's the case.

CAVUTO: OK.

PRICE: The average length of a pandemic in history is somewhere between two and three years. We're moving toward that phase from the pandemic to an endemic phase, which means that it's kind of in the background in our society.

And we need to do things to make certain that those that are most vulnerable don't catch the disease, and that we do all that we can to make certain that, when we have these variants -- and there will be other variants -- that you may need a booster. You may need to actually add this to your annual flu vaccine, for example.

I think we're going to be seeing this for a long time. But it doesn't mean that we need to shut down. It doesn't mean that we need to close schools. It doesn't mean that we need to close society. We just need to treat this as an infectious disease, as it is, and do the things that we know help.

CAVUTO: All right, so when you say do the things that might require, as it is, like annual treatments like we have for flu shots, in other words?

PRICE: Potentially. In fact, they're working as we speak on trying to determine whether or not you can give a COVID vaccine booster or update along with the flu vaccine itself, so that you don't need to get poked twice in the fall each year.

But it wouldn't surprise me at all that we, you and I and everybody is recommended to receive a COVID update on a routine basis, annual or otherwise.

CAVUTO: Got it.

Doctor, Secretary, good having you, Tom Price, the former health and human services secretary of the United States.

PRICE: Thanks so much.

CAVUTO: Meanwhile, we're going to go to Senator Jon Tester, the Democrat from the beautiful state of Montana.

He has been leading a charge, in concert right now with Senator Joe Manchin, in opposing President Biden's vaccine mandate push right now for the private sector.

Senator, very good to have you. Thanks for joining me.

SEN. JON TESTER (D-MT): Thanks for having me on, Neil. Thank you.

CAVUTO: Your concern with the private sector push comes amid courts now, sort of questioning how far the president can go demanding it of even federal contractors. Where do you and how do you distinguish?

TESTER: Well, first of all, I mean, look, I have been vaccinated. My family has been vaccinated. My entire staff has been vaccinated.

I believe that people need to go out and get vaccinated, just as the previous two folks have talked about. But, in the end, I have heard a lot from my businesses in the state of Montana. And they have told me that it's put them in a heck of a bind.

And so I think they should have some relief. On the other side, there are other -- like the health care folks who need to get vaccinated, I'm not opposed to that at all. In fact, I think it's the right thing to do. I think it's common sense, Neil.

CAVUTO: So, where are we going with this, Senator? I know it's an up and down, depending on the headline of the day, for example, how far Omicron goes, and now concerns that were raised earlier might have been misplaced.

How do you feel about where we are in this whole thing?

TESTER: Well, look, I wish this thing was behind us.

I can tell you this. We're still seeing some economic impacts from this and some business impacts. So I wish it was behind us. I think that we have gotten good news on Omicron. And it's -- in what's going on there.

But I would just say this. If you're out there and you haven't been vaccinated, man, I don't know about you, but I hate being sick. And I think that just get the vaccine, and it'll keep you on your feet and keep you able to be able to -- working and not risk potential loss of life.

But it's about moving forward, getting this behind us. And it may always be back in the background at some point in time, but ultimately getting the vaccine -- getting the vaccination and moving forward, and now, as we're hearing today, getting that third booster shot.

CAVUTO: Yes. No, I'm with you on that, Senator. Having been vaccinated, and then it was a breakthrough case, and got it again, I just think I would be a lot worse off if I didn't have it. But your point is well taken.

I do want to get your thoughts on what's happening in my neck of the woods, Senator, where outgoing Mayor Bill de Blasio is going to force the mandate issue for all private workers by the end of the year.

Now, he only has a few weeks left in his term, but some are being -- saying you're overdoing it. Do you think he's overdoing it?

TESTER: Well, I haven't looked at it Mayor de Blasio's proposal.

But I can tell you, just generally, Neil, I would prefer the carrot, rather than the stick. And I think that we're at a point in time and of our economy and the recovery and things that have to get done, especially with the bipartisan infrastructure bill that we passed, that we need to pay attention to what folks are telling us.

And I can tell you, in the state of Montana, folks are saying, businesspeople are saying, this -- even though the owners think it's a good idea to get vaccinated, they're saying this puts me in a bind.

So the mandate issue for the private sector does become problematic for business.

CAVUTO: So, let me ask you.

In your state, of course, there's no forcing this issue. The governor is, in fact, trying to woo health care workers who feel that mandates have forced them out of work to come to your state. Where do you -- where are you on that?

TESTER: Well, look, I think when it comes to health care workers, they need to be vaccinated.

I -- if I -- and I hope it never happens ever. You end up in the hospital and you got to -- we have got a shortage of nurses right now, a shortage of doctors in Montana right now, and I think throughout the country. And so if we're going to have these folks potentially end up getting sick or worse, it's important they get vaccinated.

Besides that, they're dealing with a high-risk population and a lot of cases that can't afford to get this virus.

CAVUTO: Right.

Senator, while I have you here and these ongoing Build Back Better talks, I don't know where this thing stands. Chuck Schumer, we're told, Senator, wants to get to a vote before Christmas. Is that likely? And do you get any sign of movement, the same fellow you're working with on this mandate thing, Senator Joe Manchin, whether he's moved closer to a yea on this?

TESTER: Look, I think negotiations go on, on all fronts.

But I don't think the timeline is what's really important here. I think it's getting it done, so it really helps cut costs and reduce taxes for America's families. I think that's really what's important.

And I think negotiations continue on several fronts working to get this bill to a point where we could potentially get it passed before Christmas. But I don't think the timeline is what's important. I think what's important is what is in it.

CAVUTO: All right, we will watch it very, very closely.

Senator, very good seeing you.

TESTER: Thank you, Neil.

CAVUTO: Jon Tester of Montana.

CAVUTO: We have a lot more coming up, including South Carolina Republican Nancy Mace. She made some headlines last time she was with us.

But the focus today seems to be on the president's focus on this big spending package, and now, with all the inflation that we have read about, whether it's even warranted to go much further than just talk right now -- after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, the president is speaking in Kansas City, Missouri.

He is actually touting the benefits of the infrastructure. That was the bipartisan one that did ultimately pass. He's also teeing up something he says that will be very good still, sort of like icing on the proverbial economic cake, this Build Back Better measure, about $2 trillion worth of additional spending he says will bring us to a much stronger economy.

But that is something my next guest has a bit of a different view.

South Carolina Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace with us right now, serves on the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee as well, among others.

Congresswoman, very good to have you back.

REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): And thank you so much, Neil.

CAVUTO: So let's talk a little bit about what the president's talking about in Missouri right now, the benefits of this infrastructure plan.

A good many of your colleagues on the Republican side supported that in the House and in the Senate. You did not. And you still stick to that, right?

MACE: Right.

It was not overwhelmingly bipartisan, I guess I would -- I would gather. In the Senate, certainly it was, but, in the House, Republicans were left out of the negotiation. I sit on the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, and I saw bit by bit as whether you're a Democrat or Republican, quite frankly, in the House on the T&I Committee, you weren't able to have a voice on that.

And I think that's why you're seeing Chairman DeFazio retiring next year. This was supposed to be a swan song and his big bill. And he really didn't get much of a say in it. Really, the committee on the House side was taken over by Nancy Pelosi.

But all of this spending leads to more inflation, adds to those inflation woes. And so that's another issue we have to take hold of right now because of all the spending we have got.

CAVUTO: Now, a lot of people have looked at this Build Back Better plan, and it looks dicey, not that you would be voting for that. I don't believe any Republican is even considering that.

MACE: I hope not.

CAVUTO: But is it fair to say that, if it doesn't come up for a vote this year, what remains of it, it's just not happening, period?

MACE: Well, it's definitely not coming up for a vote, I believe, by the end of the year, and I think it would be DOA next year.

Look, I believe the left misled Americans, the American people, on what this thing would truly cost. They used the section-by-section score by the CBO to get a vote on the House. And we're learning that that score may be actually higher. We're going to see the CBO come out with a much higher number, we believe, on Friday, scoring the entire package.

We think it'll come in between $4 trillion and $5 trillion, which is enormously, vastly different than what we were told. And so I don't think it does get done by the end of the year. And I do think it's dead.

CAVUTO: If you don't mind if we switch gears, Congresswoman, because you made a lot of news when last we appeared calling out, as you had already done prior to our interview, obviously, fellow Republicans that you thought struck a very, very strident tone.

You particularly went after Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia, taking issue as well on Congresswoman Ilhan Omar and the fact that she was Muslim, equating with her being a terrorist. And it opened up a divide in the party, but you didn't seem to mind the debate.

Where are you right now? Have you two chatted since then? Where do things stand?

(LAUGHTER)

MACE: No, we absolutely -- absolutely not. We have not.

But here's the thing. I want Republicans to win next year. In order to win, we have to be united. And we cannot attack one another. That's what the left wants us to do.

When I get attacked by someone who uses disinformation or dishonesty about my record, I'm going to hit back. I don't care if you have an R or a D by your name. It's never been in me to be a wallflower.

And one of the reasons I got into this gig is because I saw the dishonesty. I saw the way the American people were misled time after time after time on issue after issue. And that's why I got into the political fray.

But I do believe it's important for us to show leadership in challenging times, show that our policies are better than theirs. Our nation is facing enormous crises, from the border, to inflation, to the taxation that will come if they end up getting Build Back Better done.

These things are important to the American people. And that's really where our focus should be.

But make no mistake, Neil. I'm not going to be somebody else's doormat, especially when my record is being made to be much different.

CAVUTO: Well, I understand that, Congresswoman.

MACE: Yes.

CAVUTO: And you said you hit back.

But what got your goat apparently was her criticism, Boeing's criticisms of Omar, and that that and equating her with a terrorist because she was a Muslim, that's what started it, or your response.

MACE: Oh, I have -- I have condemned -- I have condemned...

CAVUTO: So, where is that right now?

MACE: Yes.

CAVUTO: Do you think those in that end of the party, or whatever you want to call it, whether there is a Boeing wing or an extreme right wing of the party, do you want nothing to do with that? Do you think that you can coexist in the same party?

How do you describe it?

MACE: Well, I would do want to say, one of the things about -- when I condemned the remarks by Congresswoman Boeing, I also commended her for taking responsibility and apologizing for those remarks. That was the first time in a long time that anyone has done that.

I see that there is an effort now to take her off of her committees. Congresswoman Pressley is leading that effort. That is not the role of Congress on the floor of the House, not something I will be supporting. That's something that our conference should take up. And it's up to the voters.

CAVUTO: So, you don't like these punitive measures that are taken against...

MACE: They're unprecedented, quite frankly, and they're only applied to Republicans, not to Democrats.

And there's been anti-Semitism on the left. There's been members that have stoked, I think, violent rhetoric at protests and riots around the country and during very tumultuous times. And I think, if you're going to have a standard, you have to apply that standard to both sides, which is why I condemn bigotry and anti-Semitism and racism by Republicans and Democrats alike.

I think we all should.

CAVUTO: All right.

Now, in this Wall Street Journal survey that is out today, Congresswoman, if there were another match between Joe Biden and Donald Trump, they're essentially tied. They went from about a 4.5 percent gap in the popular vote in the election last year back in 2020 to now essentially even.

So, if Donald Trump were to emerge as your party's nominee, would you support him?

MACE: I feel like I have answered this question before, but I -- yes, I would support the nominee of our party in 2024.

The policies of President Trump and the Trump administration were better for every American, regardless of your gender or the color of your skin. We had unemployment the lowest for every community and every walk of life. When he was president, we had the -- we had the FIRST STEP Act, a bipartisan bill, prison reform bill.

We had Operation Warp Speed for the vaccine. You took a vaccine from idea to market in 10 months vs. 10 years. So that will be up to the voters of this country. And that will be up to the voters of the party. I will support whomever our nominee is in 2014.

CAVUTO: All right.

So the president, when he's moved against those who have voted for legislation that he didn't like or to challenge, as he now has, the incumbent governor and helping former Senator Perdue challenge Governor Kemp in Georgia, how do you feel about those types of efforts?

MACE: I haven't -- I haven't seen a lot of that. So I can't speak on it.

I will say, Neil, I represent a swing district. I have a race next year. And that's where my focus is, is representing my constituents on both sides of the aisle, and delivering results for the community that I represent in the Low Country in South Carolina's First Congressional District.

I have been passing legislation with Democrats this year. I have passed three bills out of the floor of the House. I now am the Republican ranking member on the Subcommittee on Oversight. I just got back from the first bipartisan trip by the U.S. House of Representatives to the Indo-Pacific region.

I'm trying to deliver. And so my community is my focus vs. what else is going around, around the country.

CAVUTO: All right.

MACE: But thank you.

CAVUTO: All right, so real quickly, when the president has taken offense to some of the things that you have said, you don't fear that he might want to launch or get others to launch a challenge, a party challenge to you?

MACE: Oh, I'm sure he's not the only one.

And I believe he's already said that he would. And it's really -- it's not up to him. It's up to the voters of South Carolina in the First Congressional District to decide whether or not they want me to represent them going forward.

CAVUTO: All right.

MACE: And I believe that I truly represent my district, and I'm proud to and honored to.

CAVUTO: Got it.

But none of that would affect whether you would support him or not if he were your nominee, the presidential nominee, next go-round?

MACE: I care about the future of my country and doing what's right for everyone that I represent in my state, my district and our nation, so we're going to do what's best for our country.

CAVUTO: Got it.

Nancy Mace, South Carolina Republican, very good seeing you, Congresswoman.

MACE: Thank you.

CAVUTO: All right, the fallout from those remarks and a lot more about the crime way that right now is really buffeting a lot of states, but it's what some are doing about it that's raising even more eyebrows.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, the president just wrapping up remarks in Missouri, where he's making his pitch for that infrastructure plan and teasing that, if you like what's coming out of that, you will love what could come out of Build Back Better. Really?

After this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, the president just wrapped up her remarks right now speaking in Missouri, but a lot of people are beginning to wonder whether it's resonating or doing him any good, especially within a Wall Street Journal survey that shows his approval rating at or near record lows, and, if he were to be rematch with Donald Trump, they'd be in a statistical tie.

Keep in mind the popular vote, he won by about 4.5 percent. Right now, they're essentially even at 46 to 45 percent.

Phil Wegmann of RealClearPolitics on the significance of all of this.

And, Phil, you quite properly remind me that these polls and these snapshots are just that, snapshots. But they are revealing. And I know history proves they often change as time goes on. But the president is trying to change that story by saying, between the infrastructure plan and Build Back Better, all things will be better.

Is that resonating?

PHILIP WEGMANN, REALCLEARPOLITICS: Not yet.

I mean, the White House continues to tell themselves that popular policy will eventually lead to a popular president. But, thus far, we haven't seen that. In fact, the president remains underwater in the RealClearPolitics average. Granted, it's only been 23 days since he signed the infrastructure package into law.

But those numbers are concerning. And then when you look at the crosstabs coming out of this new Wall Street Journal poll, that just adds to the concern. And it's the sort of thing that has Democrats worried, because their window for running on their record, for touting the things that they have done, that's quickly closing, because we're going to get to a point where the legislating is largely going to be over, and Congress is going to be running for reelection.

CAVUTO: You know what's interesting, looking at the details of that survey in The Wall Street Journal, is that, among undecided voters, there's great enthusiasm -- well, I wouldn't call great enthusiasm, but support, not only for the infrastructure package, but even some of the outlines of Build Back Better.

The president has always argued, Democrats have argued that, once these packages take hold, if Build Back Better were to ever pass, it'll be a very different electorate. What do you think of that?

WEGMANN: Well, there's definitely going to be some urgency to getting this money out there and getting these projects started.

If you listen to Secretary Buttigieg, he continuously says, though, that we're not looking for shovel-ready jobs, we're looking for shovel-worthy jobs. And if that's going to be your sort of discretionary rubric, then, yes, maybe some of the money doesn't pump as quickly as possible.

But with all this talk about infrastructure, what I'm sort of reminded about is, this summer, we saw why President Biden's poll numbers went down. We know why Americans don't approve of the job that he's doing. And it has to do with the withdrawal from Afghanistan and also the resurgence of the Delta variant.

Now we also have sort of echoes of those two things, because we're wondering about what Omicron is going to look like. And now, rather than talking about infrastructure, we're sort of replaying a perhaps similar scenario, hopefully not similar, but we're looking at a foreign policy situation in Ukraine.

Those types of headlines make it harder for everyday Americans to say, OK, well, these roads and bridges got fixed.

CAVUTO: Yes, when it's your predecessors policies that people seem to want to return to, even though they might not flip over your predecessor personally, that's a very telling kind of a finding right there.

Phil Wegmann, thank you very much. Good seeing you, my friend.

WEGMANN: Thank you, sir.

CAVUTO: All right, meanwhile, another issue that is dominant on the minds of voters, at least in a dozen cities where crime is running rampant, is their own personal safety.

We have often said, in New York, the reluctance about going back to in person work has more to do with crime than it certainly has to do with COVID.

Count Ted Williams not at all surprised, the FOX News contributor, former D.C. homicide detective. He was on top of this story more than, what, 18 months ago talking about this defund the police movement and the rest would come back to damage people's confidence in the system and the safety of the system.

Ted, good to have you back.

I'm wondering what you make of some of the measures that are now being taken to frantically adjust these crime spikes, and whether they're enough right now.

TED WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, thanks for having me on, Neil.

And I'd like to be the bearer of good news, but I have to be the bearer of bad news. And that is that we are at war when it comes to crime and criminals. And the sad commentary, Neil, is that we are losing that war.

I mean, when we look from New York to California, we can see, if you're in a store, you're looking at somebody smashing and grabbing and taking merchandise. If you're driving your car down the road, you're looking at individuals who can carjack you. Homicide is up.

If you go in Chicago, and you're there for any weekend, and there are not over 50 crimes or 50 homicides, should I say, you're not in Chicago, sadly. So all of these things out there, and they are being driven. And I think what we need to look at is how the transition should take place.

And I believe that what we need our prosecutors and judges to get together in these courts and to be more proactive than reactive when it comes to crime.

CAVUTO: But they're not. They're not doing that, Ted.

If anything, they continue to set criminals free. And some are being forced to address that, but precious few. So that means that this goes on and on, doesn't it?

WILLIAMS: Well, it goes on and on.

And since this is a national catastrophe, as far as I can see, I would suggest that the president of the United States, President Biden, call a crime summit, and that he appoint a crime czar, that you work with these local prosecutors.

For instance, in California, Neil, in these smash-and-grabs, before the ink is dry on the paperwork where they arrest these people, they're back out on the street. That should not be happening. So there's a need to change the laws to better suit and protect law-abiding citizens.

And we don't have that at this time.

CAVUTO: No, not even close, Ted.

Thank you very much. Good catching up with you, Ted. Be well. Be safe, Ted Williams, a former D.C. homicide detective.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

CAVUTO: All right, in the meantime here, no indication of what was exactly disgusted in that phone call between the president of the United States and Vladimir Putin.

What we realized is that Vladimir Putin was alone at a table, the president had several others at his table, but, so far, no indication that Vladimir Putin is going to change his plans or change maybe what he's planning for those 100,000 soldiers of his right on the Ukrainian border.

What's really going on?

After this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: The idea the United States is going to unilaterally use force to confront Russia from invading Ukraine is not on -- in the cards right now.

QUESTION: Are you confident that he got the message and knows this is different?

BIDEN: I am absolutely confident he got the message.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAVUTO: So yesterday, we had Senator Wicker on talking about that it might be a good idea to send troops to the region to send a message to the Russians, the president making clear there are many actions we could take, but that will not be one of them.

Kirk Lippold with us now, the former USS Cole commander,

Commander, what do you think of the president's for now at least ruling out troops of ours, period?

KIRK LIPPOLD, FORMER COMMANDER, USS COLE: I think it's a very good signal, Neil

I think that, for the most part, the -- President Biden knows that for us to act in any unilateral fashion would not help the situation at all. While President Putin is doing this, what he's really doing is, he's sending a signal to both the United States and NATO that he does not want Ukraine to be within the Western orbit and certainly does not want Ukraine to become a NATO member.

That's the real signal he's trying to get across to them. And he's emphasizing it more this time than the last time we had a troop buildup on the border.

CAVUTO: Let's say they do invade, with even all the threats of sanctions, further moves, shutting down pipelines, all of that. And he still does it. What do we do?

LIPPOLD: I think, at that point, Neil, we should be trying to get the types of weapons into Ukraine now that are defensive in nature, the Javelin anti-tank missiles, the Stinger surface-to-air missiles.

Those are weapons they can use to blunt and slow down, because, in some ways, we want to do for Ukraine what we're trying to do with Taiwan and China. You want to make it so expensive that, if Russia goes in, Ukraine is not going to be able to prevent them from an invasion or from taking over their country if Putin and Russia were hell-bent on doing it.

By the same token, you want to raise the cost so high that it will prevent him from doing it. So there's going to be a lot of jockeying, maneuvering over the next month or so, certainly until springtime, which is when you would probably see an offensive occur.

Until then, let's share the kind of intelligence information, give logistics support to the Ukrainians that allow them to prepare that, should an invasion occur, to make it cost the Russians so dearly that it will, in fact, first and foremost serve as a deterrent measure, and then, if necessary, cause them to actually not do it.

CAVUTO: All right, in other words, have them relive their earliest days in Afghanistan back in the late '70s and 1980s.

But I do want to get your sense of how maybe the Russians and the Chinese are working in concert to sort of tempt us, to sort of test us.

LIPPOLD: I wouldn't be surprised.

In many ways, Neil, you have to look at it that both of them are trying to draw a reaction from the United States and from other democratic countries. We shouldn't rise to the bait.

I wouldn't be surprised if both Russia and China are doing things in concert. Whether they have got it synchronized and coordinated that you would see an invasion in Taiwan and into Eastern Ukraine at the same time, I'm not sure we're at that point.

I honestly believe that both countries, while they want to aggravate the United States, test the United States, push President Biden to see how far he can be pushed, the actual application of military force, I don't think is going to happen. And, if it does, I would actually be very surprised, as I think most of the world, because the cost for those nations would end up being so high in the long run that I don't think they're going to want to give that -- to bear that price.

CAVUTO: All right, let's hope you're right on that, Commander.

Very good seeing you again. If I don't again, have a merry Christmas.

LIPPOLD: Absolutely, Neil. You as well, Neil. Thank you very much for having me on.

CAVUTO: All right, Kirk Lippold.

When I come, we have got Brian Kilmeade here, the man who 24 hours straight, hardest-working individual at FOX, bar none. But what you probably already know a little bit, he is an incredible author, a very successful one.

But this latest book, taking a look at Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass, you know a lot about each individually. Looking at how they worked with each other together is a first and a fascinating one that has lessons for today.

Brian's next. He's going on 23 hours without sleep.

(LAUGHTER)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, better late than never.

My good friend Brian Kilmeade is here. We were supposed to have him like weeks ago, and all this breaking news, and, of course, and he's on this book tour all over the country. But it's "The President and the Freedom Fighter: Abraham Lincoln, Frederick Douglass, and Their Battle to Save America's Soul."

But it's how he puts the two together and the relationship and all, it's just fascinating. He's got a real touch with this stuff on history. And he's funny as hell, which, of course, this is not a funny book, I should say, right?

BRIAN KILMEADE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Right. But this is a funny show.

CAVUTO: But it could be, yes.

KILMEADE: Yes.

CAVUTO: All right. Very good to see you.

KILMEADE: Thank you.

CAVUTO: You know what I didn't realize...

KILMEADE: Can I just say it's such a pleasure? Because you read the books. I don't know how you do it.

CAVUTO: I love history.

KILMEADE: But you get into it.

CAVUTO: This is awesome. This is awesome. And I was mentioning with Bret with his book as well.

But this one really looks at something. I knew, certainly, Douglass. I knew -- everyone knows Lincoln. But it's that relationship and the time of it, and so the war and how you deal with this, I didn't have any idea how they intertwined.

KILMEADE: Not to the very end, but you had the editor of The North Star, creator of The North Star in Frederick Douglass, who used to write for The Liberator.

CAVUTO: Right.

KILMEADE: And he sees this Republican, this brand-new party, this one-term congressman and this Republican, making waves with his speeches and, of course, with the Douglass, Lincoln-Douglass debates.

And he sees potential in him. Douglass was ready to throw in the towel and just go to Haiti. He's like, listen, this...

CAVUTO: Right.

KILMEADE: I can't make heads or tails of this country. We're never going to live up to the Constitution, not get rid of our Constitution.

Even though Douglass, born a slave, had every reason to hate the country, he saw the potential in the country. It doesn't mean he didn't lose his patience with the country? And then you watch the emergence of this candidate.

And I think it's almost like in your family. Do you know you have -- you have such high hopes for your friends and family. And when they don't reach it, you're twice as angry, because you know what it could be.

And he's impatient. Why is he not emancipating the slaves? Why did he reach out to the South and say, you can keep your slaves, just come back to the Union? And Douglass is saying, come on. My -- you cannot live with four million people in slavery and 350,000 slave owners.

But he had to take his time. Lincoln knew he'd have no country to govern because the Union was not ready to fight for slavery only.

CAVUTO: But wasn't Lincoln pragmatic on the whole slavery thing, certainly early in his career?

KILMEADE: Explain that to an activist, yes.

CAVUTO: And didn't that tick Douglass off?

KILMEADE: That's exactly what I'm saying.

CAVUTO: Yes.

KILMEADE: And an activist and intellectual lecturer does not understand the responsibility of a statesman, and vice versa.

And when they finally get to meet, you see the preconceptions about each other melt away. How do I know that? Douglass wrote his biography seven years after escaping slavery, and then he would update it, update it, update it. So he brought us right to those moments when they met.

It wipes out the opinion portion of the story.

CAVUTO: You know, you never get into this. You're focused on that time period, as you should be.

But Lincoln would be a president who also had to deal and wanted to find the right way to deal with up-and-coming black leader, a prominent -- as much as Teddy Roosevelt would do during his term and later...

KILMEADE: Booker T. Washington.

CAVUTO: Absolutely, and even John F. Kennedy in dealing with Martin Luther King.

KILMEADE: Yes.

CAVUTO: And in all those cases of Booker T. Washington or Martin Luther King or, in this case, with Douglass, there was great impatience. You got to do more.You got to do more.

How did Lincoln digest that?

KILMEADE: Well, I think that he was not born in a slave culture. He did not have slaves. The North only had -- 1 percent of the black population was in the North.

But he knew about it. He knew the issue, how divisive it was. And he believed there should be freedom for all. But, originally, he wasn't for equality.

CAVUTO: Right. Right.

KILMEADE: He said: Well, we know the black man is not as smart as the white man.

But he would evolve and grow. And I think that's what people are missing.

CAVUTO: When did that happen? Because that's what you remember. That's what a lot of people point to. This is what he was saying about blacks.

KILMEADE: Right.

I think it happened in his presidency when he got to know the issue well. And a guy named Benjamin Franklin had the same thing.

CAVUTO: Right.

KILMEADE: The smartest man on the planet maybe ever had slaves. By the time he was in the upper years of his life, he was the ultimate abolitionist, because you grow in life. You were born into a culture. It's not your choice.

CAVUTO: Yes.

KILMEADE: What you make of that and the decisions you make is your thirst for education.

They both were determined to know everything about everything. And they did not have any structure. The world was keeping them away from the books. They couldn't be denied. And they ended up -- when they finally got together, they realized how much they had in common.

And, Neil, when I was done, I just think about, we would not have needed the 1960s had John Wilkes Booth not wiped out Lincoln in the 1860s.

CAVUTO: Think about that, right? No, that was a very good...

KILMEADE: He did more damage to America than anybody else.

CAVUTO: But then I'm wondering too, were we fair in our historical perspective on these guys?

And near the end of the book, you talk that: "By the end of the 20th century, Lincoln came off his pedestal. Douglass rose a little bit from obscurity. Today, these two men once again occupy a shared space in the ongoing story of the American experiment."

But doesn't Lincoln have that perennial advantage all the time? Everyone knows Lincoln.

KILMEADE: And they should.

As much as Frederick Douglass -- he advised seven presidents. What he was doing for women's rights with Susan B. Anthony is also legendary.

CAVUTO: Right.

KILMEADE: He never stopped.

When the man could have been living in Germany, in Scotland, in England and Ireland like a king, he wanted to come back and fight for the four million still enslaved.

CAVUTO: Right.

KILMEADE: And there are statues for him there.

But I would end like this real quick. I would say that Phil Foner, an obscure historian, brought Frederick Douglass back in the '40s. And now I think he sits on a high pedestal.

And I think that, the more you study him, the more you will understand why CRT is so destructive. Understand where America came from. Don't whitewash slavery.

CAVUTO: OK.

KILMEADE: But also understand where we are.

CAVUTO: Where we are.

It's a great book, "The President and the Freedom Fighter.

Brian Kilmeade, he doesn't sleep. He's all over the country doing this. Goes to very nice, swanky places like Amelia Island.

KILMEADE: Right.

CAVUTO: But he's there for like four seconds.

KILMEADE: Fort Worth is even swankier. It will be tomorrow.

CAVUTO: Incredible.

KILMEADE: And then Dallas.

CAVUTO: I cannot imagine.

KILMEADE: And then Tyler.

CAVUTO: Incredible.

All right, I'm getting tired just talking to him.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: All right, we will have more after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: Well, Christmas is looking expensive. But, right now, it's looking iffy in some places that like big light shows.

Jeff Flock in West Berlin, New Jersey, here to explain.

Jeff, what's going on?

JEFF FLOCK, FOX BUSINESS NETWORK CORRESPONDENT: I come to you from, Neil, perhaps the most unique light show, Christmas light show, in the country.

This is an amusement park called Diggerland USA. And maybe you get a sense of it as the sun goes down here. This is a place where you can come and operate big heavy equipment and that sort of thing. That's the theme. It's the only construction-themed amusement park in the country.

But putting on a light show this Christmas has its own challenges. I'm talking to the man who, along with his brother, created this. A million bulbs, electric costs?

ILYA GIRLYA, DIGGERLAND USA: Electric costs are up 35 percent year to date so far. Very expensive.

FLOCK: And getting the lightbulbs themselves, they come from overseas, right?

GIRLYA: Yes, all the lights come from China. And it's very difficult to source them. We had significant shipping delays, significant cost escalations, nearly 45 to 50 percent on getting them here.

FLOCK: It's amazing, Neil.

Take a look this way.

Actually, Mark (ph), shown the bus, the school bus. Took you a week to put all the plates on the school bus?

GIRLYA: Yes, that's a large object there. And it was very painful to get all the lights up, get them all synchronized, and get them all taped down.

FLOCK: And it takes staff to do that. You haven't had the staff.

You're out here serving french fries yourself and cooking over the fryer.

GIRLYA: That's right. My brother and I work the kitchen. We work every department, along with all of our wonderful management team.

So, whatever it takes to get it done, so the customer is happy and it's transparent to them, we stick together as a team and we get it done.

FLOCK: Every year, Neil, seems to be a unique challenge at Christmas for them, whether it's COVID or energy or people.

I leave you with a picture of the most unique light show this Christmas in the USA.

CAVUTO: You know, Jeff, we needed that. Thank you very, very much, my friend, Jeff Flock.

The light show goes on. And so do the holidays. And so does FOX.

Here's "The Five."

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