'Your World' on Gabby Petito autopsy, Brian Laundrie manhunt

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Ted Wiliams on Gabby Petito autopsy: I believe there’s enough indication to charge Laundrie

Former DC homicide detective Ted Williams breaks down the evidence the FBI has to turn Brian Laundrie from a 'person of interest' to a suspect in Gabby Petito's strangulation.

This is a rush transcript from "Your World" October 12, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

DR. BRENT BLUE, TETON COUNTY, WYOMING, CORONER: We find the cause and manner to be, cause death by strangulation, and manner is homicide. 

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: All right, we know at least this much. Gabby Petito was strangled. What we don't know and people are still wondering is whether her boyfriend, Brian Laundrie, was the guy who strangled her. 

Welcome, everybody. I'm Neil Cavuto. And this is "Your World" on top of a mystery that has gripped the nation for the better part of a month right now and growing questions as to where, well, Brian Laundrie is. 

So much, we don't know. This much, we do, some closure for the family perhaps on the details of their daughter's tragic death, but so many questions besides. 

Let's go to Laura Ingle right now with the latest -- Laura. 

LAURA INGLE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Neil. 

As you mentioned, the cause of death now made public by the Teton County coroner in Wyoming, announcing his verdict of the cause and manner of death of Gabby Petito, saying she died by strangulation and explaining in his press conference today held on a Zoom how his team came to their conclusions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

BLUE: We look at the crime scene or the scene of the death, the scene of the body, the condition of the body, and findings at autopsy and toxicology.

And that is how we arrive at the manner of death. So, it really depends on lots of different circumstances. 

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

INGLE: Another key finding, that Petito had died three to four weeks before her remains were found September 19 near the border of the Grand Teton National Park in Jackson, Wyoming. 

This is in a rural stretch of wilderness in the Spread Creek campground area. And that's just 30 miles down the road from where she was last seen on August 27 at a restaurant arguing with her boyfriend, Brian Laundrie. 

Now, when asked about the condition of Petito's remains, if she was buried or above the ground, Dr. Blue couldn't specify, but was able to give some clarification as to why it took the coroner's office nearly one month to deliver their findings. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

BLUE: The main reason was that we were very exacting in our examination and the detail by which that examination was done. 

We were waiting on toxicology to be returned. And it was just a matter of making sure we had everything right. 

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

INGLE: And the manhunt continues for Petito's fiance, who is considered just a person of interest in this case so far and has been missing for nearly a month, according to his parents in his home in Florida, where he returned from the couple's cross-country trip and Petito's white van without her on September 1. 

No word, Neil, from the FBI. We reached out on if these new developments might lead to additional charges against Laundrie. They have not said -- back to you. 

CAVUTO: Laura Ingle, thank you very much for that. 

Ted Williams joining us right now, a FOX contributor, former D.C. homicide detective. 

All right, Ted, we know that she was strangled. What does that tell you? 

TED WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, there's a lot that we know, Neil, here and there's a lot that we don't know. 

But I think we need to just step back for a second and try to go through the timeline here. We know that Gabby Petito and Brian Laundrie were last seen at a restaurant on the August 27th in Wyoming. On September 1, Laundrie, Brian, returns home to Florida from the Wyoming area without Gabby. 

Gabby and Brian lived in a home with Laundrie's mother and father. We know that, on September the 6th through the 8th, in De Soto Park there in Florida. Brian Laundrie and his family without Gabby went hiking in that and camping. 

We know that, on September the 11th, Gabby was reported missing by her family, the Petito family. We know that, on September the 13th, Laundrie, Brian, goes missing himself, last seen allegedly in the Carlton Reserve. They started and they searched that Carlton Reserve. 

We know that, on September the 19th, Gabby's body was found in the Grand Teton Park there in Wyoming. And we know that, on September the 23rd, Brian was charged with the use of her credit card. Those are some of the facts that are faced. 

Now that we have found that the cause of death is strangulation, I think they are beginning to close in, meaning the FBI, on a suspect. As you know, Neil, Brian has been all along treated as a person of interest. I have a feeling that, sooner than later, those -- that will change. 

And I do believe that there is enough, perhaps, maybe, from all indications, to charge Brian with the strangulation here of this young lady.

CAVUTO: You know, I'm just doing the timeline with you, Ted, and I'm doing the math backwards. If her body was found around the 19th, and they said that body had been in the park for upwards of three to four weeks, so that would put roughly the time of her death that around August 19 to August 26, which follows some of the prior videos we have seen and incidents in which she and Brian Laundrie had been apparently fighting. 

How do you piece all of that timeline together? 

WILLIAMS: Well, what you have here, unfortunately, at this stage is more of a circumstantial evidence case. 

But there have been many individuals convicted on circumstantial evidence. What you have to show also here is something that we as lawyers say, something called conscious of guilt. And that is the fact that Brian Laundrie returned home on September one without Gabby. 

And you got to believe, Neil, that if they lived in a House with Brian's mother and father, the first thing you say is, where is Gabby? And so it is just befuddling that, on September the 6th through the 8th, you're going to go camping with Brian without Gabby. 

All of these things are part of the puzzle. I would have to also believe that, at this stage, the FBI has some physical evidence, and they are trying to put that together. I can tell you what defense attorneys are going to do in this case, Neil. 

And that is, they're going to say, yes, they were out there in that Grand Teton Park. They had a fight. Brian then took off and came back across country. He doesn't know what happened to Gabby. I guarantee you, that's going to be the defense in this case. 

CAVUTO: So, Ted, the fact that they have not charged Laundrie with anything beyond stealing a debit card, and apparently Gabby's credit card, debit card, why would they hold off on that? 

WILLIAMS: Mainly because they were collecting and they are still collecting evidence. 

When you look at the manner of death here or the cause of death being strangulation, I think they knew that right away, and the reason being is, right in this area of your body, you have something called a hyoid bone. When you are strangled, that bone is normally crushed. 

They would have found that out right away. But what they now have been doing is trying to backtrack and to find out where Brian has been all of this time. As you know, Brian is now missing. We don't know where he is. He could be alive. He could be dead, for all we know. 

But the FBI is clearly looking at him. He is a fugitive. 

CAVUTO: All right, Ted, thank you very much. 

By the way, Brian Laundrie has been missing for the better part of five- and-a-half weeks right now. We do know that Gabby Petito's father's says he wants Brian Laundrie found alive. 

Let's go to Mark Eiglarsh, the criminal defense attorney. 

Mark, obviously, the corner was very, very careful, limiting any further details beyond the fact that Gabby was strangled. Obviously, that was by design, but what do you think is going on behind the scenes? 

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first, he wanted to make sure that he didn't find himself a guest of the local jail by revealing anything more than the statute allows him to. 

By law, in Wyoming, the only thing he can reveal is the cause of death. Now, the reporters got some more out of him, like she wasn't pregnant right and some other details. 

CAVUTO: Right. 

EIGLARSH: But, for the most part, what we really wanted to know, things like, did he do it, well, I defer to the FBI. That's not what we decide. 

Was there any kind of bruising? Sorry, we can't talk about that. Did you see any physical evidence that would suggest it was with his hands vs. an object? Cannot tell you that. 

So, there's still a lot that they know. They're just not telling us, and with good reason. 

CAVUTO: So, Mark, the fact that they have not upped the charges beyond just theft of a debit card, could there be any way to interpret that, in other words, either they don't have enough information, or they do, and they're just piecing it all together? 

EIGLARSH: OK, here's my very strong feeling, having been in the criminal arena for 30 years. 

They know we did it. We know he did it. He enjoys the presumption of innocence in a court of law, but, in the court of public opinion, there's no one else who likely did it. They're calling him a person of interest publicly. 

But we all know, even before today's announcement, he was a suspect. He's the number one, prime, only suspect. And that's really what he is. You can call them whatever you want. Maybe they haven't removed that label because it might be better for him to possibly get him in. You're merely a person of interest. We just want to talk to you. That might increase the chances of getting him in. 

Here's the other reason why they don't charge right now. As Ted Williams correctly indicated, they're absolutely reviewing and gathering further evidence. The minute you arrest him, assuming they could find him, his speedy trial clock starts to tick, meaning the amount of time they have to bring him to justice, as long as the defense doesn't delay the trial, begins. 

So why go ahead and arrest him for that right now unless you have to? They can arrest him, if they can find him, on the theft charges, and then they can bring charges right away. 

CAVUTO: You know, Mark, what if Laundrie is dead? We might never know what happened. 

EIGLARSH: Which I suspect, by the way. 

CAVUTO: You do? 

EIGLARSH: Yes. 

No, I think that that's -- I do. I thought that from day one. I hope not. I would love to see a trial. I'd love to see justice done. But that was my gut feeling. Yes, I think that he knew that we would find out exactly what he did. 

And strangulation, he knew, he's smart enough to know that that would leave the type of clear physical evidence that we would then all know what he did. He wasn't going to sit around for that. 

CAVUTO: What if there's a wild card element to this, Mark, where a third person's DNA or samples are discovered at the scene, complicating the case, and maybe yet an alternative reason why they have not upped charges at this point? What do you think? 

EIGLARSH: I think that that is possible. That is 100 percent going to be the likely defense, assuming there ever is a trial: I left her. Yes, my DNA is all over her because I was with her. That doesn't prove anything. So, yes, there's some third person who must have come upon this pretty young gal, and then did things to her that you can't say that I did. 

All the defense needs is a reasonable hypothesis of innocence. And while all the evidence seems to suggest that he probably did it, that's not enough. It's proof beyond and to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt. 

CAVUTO: Do you think Laundrie's family knows significantly more than they're saying? 

EIGLARSH: Yes. 

There is no other reason why you would stand that kind of public scrutiny, with people metaphorically with pitchforks outside your home. You're getting crucified in the court of public opinion. The only reason why you do that is because you're looking out for your boy, and you would rather take it to the court of public opinion than have him spend the rest of his days in a cage. 

CAVUTO: Mark Eiglarsh, thank you very much, criminal defense attorney, following this very winding, slow-winding process of just trying to find out where Brian Laundrie is, indeed, if he's still alive. 

All right, we got a lot more coming out, including a fight on Capitol Hill right now. What else is new? 

But at least a push to at least put aside the debt ceiling argument for now. I just stress, for now -- after this. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) 

CAVUTO: All right, how much to cut? That's what this battle on Capitol Hill really comes down to, but it's not between Democrats and Republicans. It's really between Democrats and fellow Democrats, moderates and progressives, divided over just how much to slice off that $3.5 trillion so-called human infrastructure plan. 

Moderates want to hack it a lot, progresses barely much at all, and the president in the middle of that food fight. 

Jacqui Heinrich at the White House with more -- Jacqui. 

JACQUI HEINRICH, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Neil. Good afternoon to you. 

Well, Speaker Pelosi said in a dear letter -- or a dear colleague letter last night that she was hearing from her caucus, her broader caucus that they would really prefer as they whittled down this package to do fewer programs over the longest period of time, basically, fully fund fewer programs in order to make sure that they get through, rather than try to truncate those programs, how long they're funded, and try to do basically the whole enchilada, but over shorter periods of time. 

They're going through this process because they're trying to get moderates and progressives to sign on to the same plan that then would be able to pass in the upper chamber in the Senate. But Pelosi really appeared then today to backtrack on that message that she was hearing that the preference was to do fewer programs well, and she said today that the timing would be the very first thing to go, so really sort of conflicting messages there. 

I asked the White House whether they have given a push in either direction, whether the president prefers one avenue or the other. And she said the American people shouldn't be thinking about cuts really at all. Take a listen. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: A cut. It's not a cut just because someone once proposed something bigger on paper. 

HEINRICH: The president doesn't prefer then one avenue or the other? 

PSAKI: The president wants to make fundamental change in our economy, and he feels coming out of the pandemic is exactly the time to do that. And if we don't do it now, if we don't address the cost of child care, to go back to Josh's question earlier, if we don't address the climate crisis, if we don't ensure that universal pre-K is a reality now, we're not going to have the same opportunity to do it for some time. 

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

HEINRICH: So, it's Psaki's answer just there that, if Democrats don't take big action now, they might not have another opportunity for quite some time. 

She later denied that that was sort of a cloudy forecast on Democrats' chances in the midterm. She said that she's speaking more to the moment that we're in, it was not a political statement. 

Meantime progressives are really digging in. They're saying that they don't want to cut anything, any programs from the social spending. They'd rather cut the timeline because they don't want to prioritize certain programs over others. 

But they also added that some of the programs will need to be funded for the whole 10 years, the climate program in particular, so really sort of setting the markers there, not giving a lot. And the White House says talks are continuing, including at the staff level, and including with the president, but, again, not a whole lot of progress over the last few days. And we are creeping right up on that deadline, Neil. 

CAVUTO: Yes, you're right about that. Jacqui, thank you very much. 

Jacqui Heinrich on all of that. 

Now to Capitol Hill, where the House is going to take up that measure that the Senate approved last week to raise the debt ceiling, keep the government going for another couple of months, on a very strict diet here of about $480 billion, for a couple of months. 

Aishah Hasnie on all of that -- Aishah. 

AISHAH HASNIE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Neil, a couple of months, really just two months, when you think about it, and we're talking about nearly half-a-trillion dollars to keep the lights on for really now less than eight weeks. 

The House comes back tonight 5:00 to vote on that. But check this out, new information just coming into our newsroom here; 190 members, Neil, that is about 40 percent, more than 40 percent of the entire House, has active proxy letters to vote remotely. 

So you have got 100 of those that actually did that today, Democrats and Republicans who just didn't want to come back to the Hill to vote on this very important measure. But even if they do pass it, we are still not out of the woods just yet. And that is because Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, he struck a deal with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell to extend the nation's credit limit by $480 billion. 

It was a move to get Dems to put kind of $1 figure, a price tag on how far they were willing to stretch the debt. But McConnell has said, look, we're not going to do that again when this short-term fix expires in December. And Republicans are probably not going to have forgotten Schumer's scathing comments about them, as 11 Republicans were helping him pass the debt extension.

Now, meanwhile, as Jacqui mentioned, Democrats need to get their house in order when it comes to the president's agenda. And we still don't have a top-line number for that social spending bill. Moderates, progressives are publicly battling this one out over what should stay, what should go. 

So we don't know what's in the plan. We don't know how much it's going to cost, but House Speaker Nancy Pelosi this morning telling reporters, you know what, it's the media's fault for Americans not understanding the president's multitrillion dollar bill. Listen. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

QUESTION: So, do you think you need to do a better job at messaging? And, going forward, how do you sell this, if ultimately you have to pare it down? 

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): Well, I think you all could do a better job of selling it, but to be very frank with you because every time I come here, I go through the list. 

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

HASNIE: OK, we could do a better job. 

So, Pelosi is now urging members to focus on a few items that they can do well, as Jacqui explained, rather than packing the bill with a ton of programs. And her first thing to go would be trimming the length of these programs to reduce the costs without undermining their impact. 

AOC, though, hitting back on this idea today, tweeting this: "We can't negotiate the reconciliation bill down to nothing." And then she lays out exactly how much money she'd like to see for the things that she's supporting, immigration and affordable housing, as progressive Senator Bernie Sanders, who reportedly will not budge on expanding Medicare, keeps calling on Senators Joe Manchin, Kyrsten Sinema, two must-have votes in the Senate, to please tell us, what do you want in this bill? Please just tell us -- Neil. 

CAVUTO: Aishah, amazing. So she's essentially blaming you and your colleagues for not knowing what's in the package, when she herself had said... 

HASNIE: We don't know what is in the package. Just tell us. 

CAVUTO: ... we don't have a finished package yet. So, oh, my goodness. 

(LAUGHTER) 

CAVUTO: All right, Aishah, I don't know how you do this without Excedrin or a lot of drugs here, because, man, oh, man, that's a kind of a catch-22 here. How do you know what to cut when you're not telling us what's in there to cut? 

All right, in the meantime here, Southwest Airlines trying to dig out of the troubles with thousands of folks who had been stranded. It says things are getting better. 

But you're going to hear from the pilots association president who says, the way things are going right now, all this could happen again, and sooner than you think -- after this. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) 

CAVUTO: Southwest is saying: We are pulling out of this mess. 

So, why do the airlines' pilots say it could happen all over again? 

After this. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) 

CAVUTO: Southwest Airlines trying to get back to normal. Good luck with that, though. 

There have been a lot of concerns right now that they are still in a world of hurt. 

Let's get the latest from Grady Trimble at Chicago's Midway International Airport -- Grady. 

GRADY TRIMBLE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Neil. 

Looking a lot better here today. What we're seeing now is people whose flights were canceled over the last couple of days coming in. And now they are able to catch flights. That's because, if you look at the departure boards over here, there are a few delays, but, as of right now, no cancellations.

Southwest says across the country, 90 cancellations and that's out of around 3, 300 flights, so a big improvement from the past few days, when hundreds of flights were canceled. The airline continues to blame bad weather, which then caused problems, leaving planes and crews out of their positions.

Southwest in a statement says: "Teams have been working diligently to restore stability to the network. As a note, the operational challenges were not a result of Southwest employee demonstrations." 

That is a reference to the claims that pilots and other workers had protested the vaccine mandate. The airline says that is not the case. The FAA says that's not the case. And even the union that represents the pilot who is opposing the vaccine mandate in the courts says it's not the case.

What seems to be the issue is staffing problems, inadequate staffing at Southwest and really a lot of the airlines, Neil. So the true test will be heading into the holidays, if they can rise to the demand with not enough workers. 

CAVUTO: Yes, that could be a huge problem, Grady Trimble. 

We're going to take that up right now with Casey Murray, the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association president. 

Casey, thank you for joining us. 

You have been warning and the union has been warning this could happen again. Why do you think that could be? 

CASEY MURRAY, PRESIDENT, SOUTHWEST AIRLINES PILOTS ASSOCIATION: Well, we have -- thanks for having me, Neil. 

CAVUTO: Thank you. 

MURRAY: It's a pleasure to be on. 

Yes, what we haven't seen from Southwest through any of this -- so, I mean, this has been going on for a few years. And, of course, this summer was the big exclamation point of three months of sort of what happened this weekend. And we really haven't seen a proactive statement from the company as to what they're going to do to address this issue moving forward, what proactive steps. 

As the union, we have been pushing them that we have identified -- and we have been pushing this argument for about four years -- that there are inefficiencies in their processes within the scheduling system, as well as is I.T. challenges as well. 

And so we'd like to see them make a statement as to, how do we assure this isn't going to happen again? 

CAVUTO: So, let me go to a couple of things that were raised that even the airline itself has dismissed, one, that you and your colleagues were waging these sick-outs over mandatory vaccination policies. That never happened? 

MURRAY: No. 

And, actually, it's Tuesday now. So, looking back on the weekend, the numbers that we have show that sick rates were right in line with during the same time during the summer. So those were normal. Our pilots, the most productive in the world, are actually out there picking up time, meaning flying on their off-days. And that number hasn't changed. 

Oddly enough, doing the forensics on this just -- and you're the first one to sort of hear this. But we also -- we realized today that the block hours had increased over 8 percent this weekend from the previous weekend. 

So, you were alluding to staffing issues. And that has to play into it as well. So, once... 

CAVUTO: What does that mean? I'm sorry, Casey. I didn't understand that. The block hours, what are you referring to? 

MURRAY: Well, total block hours that the airline is actually flying, so just over eight -- actually, 8.2 percent increase from the previous weekend, so not saying that was -- that was the issue that caused this, this weekend. 

But it's absolutely a contributing factor is -- in the time it takes to recover. 

CAVUTO: So, it put an inordinate pilots and the entire system. 

And is that your argument for something like this happening again? 

MURRAY: Well, yes, it is. 

But, internally, how they reroute pilots, how -- when a flight cancels, how they get the pilots to where they need to be, I might have a perfectly fine trip and they move me off a trip to cover something, and then they have to move another pilot in. We have -- and then a pilot has to cover that pilot. And it's a domino effect. 

We have a very complex network. It is not hub and spoke. It's point to point. 

CAVUTO: Yes. 

MURRAY: So there are some complexities there. 

But if we could see them driving some efficiencies, we think it would really help moving forward. 

CAVUTO: All right, Casey, thank you for that. Very interesting. 

Again, we have reached out to Southwest itself to find a spokesman. Still have not had any luck. We will keep an eye on that for you. 

In the meantime, keeping an eye on inflation. 

Do you ever get that '70s feeling all over again? I'm not just talking bell-bottoms and leisure suits. I'm talking long gas lines and prices going nuts in grocery stores. It's happening again -- after this. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) 

CAVUTO: All right, here's all the proof you need that inflation is not going away anytime soon. 

Container ships are backing up, and getting goods to ports is next to impossible. 

And doesn't Ashley Webster know it and see it right now -- Ashley. 

ASHLEY WEBSTER, FOX BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: I have experienced it firsthand, Neil, yes. 

Consumers right now being urged to be patient and flexible. But it doesn't take much, as we know, to trigger around a panic buying and hoarding, especially when you start to see empty store shelves. Costco and Walmart are already putting limits on sales of bath tissue, as new shipments failed to arrive, new items being added to that list. 

And take a look at these pictures from The Daily Mail, showing stores from Long Island, New York, to Southern California with near empty shelves at stores like Home Depot, CVS pharmacy, Target, Walmart, and Best Buy.

The Biden administration is now scheduled to hold a roundtable meeting with private sector companies tomorrow, including Walmart, UPS and Home Depot, to discuss the broken supply chain and ways to try and fix it. Right now, it is taking roughly 80 days to transport goods across the Pacific. That is twice as long as normal. 

In the meantime, the logjam at U.S. ports continues to grow. There are now near record 146 cargo ships off the California coast, with hundreds of billions of dollars worth of merchandise essentially going nowhere.

Now, retail giants are taking an expensive step, chartering their own cargo ships at around $140,000 a day, twice the normal cost of shipping, Walmart, Home Depot, Costco, Target some of those retailers using this pricey option, hoping to ensure key products such as electronics will arrive in time for the holiday season. 

But there's no guarantee. And experts say at least one to 25 percent of those stranded goods, Neil, are unlikely to make it in time for Black Friday, which we know is the kickoff for the holiday shopping season. 

Best advice -- and we have been saying it for a while -- start your Christmas shopping right now -- Neil. 

CAVUTO: Scary stuff. 

All right, Ashley, thank you very, very much. 

WEBSTER: Yes. 

CAVUTO: Well, of course, inflation bedeviled the Jimmy Carter presidency, and a lot of people are pointing to the same phenomena now gripping the Joe Biden presidency. 

Karl Rove on all of that. 

Karl, what do you think? Is history repeating itself, or could it? 

KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, let's hope it doesn't, because you and I both remember inflation hit by 1979 and 1980, was at 13 and 14 percent. 

Now, we're seeing a spike in inflation. Go to the whiteboard here. The CPI, the Consumer Price Index, in 2019 was rising at an average of 1.9 percent. In 2019, 2.3, dropped down to 1.4 in 2020. But, as of today, this -- thus far this year, it's 4.2 percent, so a significant jump up. 

And we're seeing it priced into a lot of things that we need, like gasoline, which is up pretty dramatically, but even things like eggs and milk are up, and with -- some of the same contours are there. We had a gas -- we had an energy crisis in the 1970s, but in a different kind of kind of a situation than we had today. 

CAVUTO: Right. 

ROVE: We did have government stimulus like in 1977 under Carter. We have we have obviously seen that both with President Trump in March of last year with the COVID bill, December with the COVID bill, February with Biden's COVID bill. 

So, we're flooding the country with money. And, ultimately, that's going to be reflected, I suspect, in higher prices. 

CAVUTO: You think about it, Karl, and you're a great student of history, our last two bouts of serious inflation in the early '70s led with OPEC and, of course, the oil embargo, and then later on in the late '70s with Jimmy Carter, again starting with oil when it was rocketing. 

And then it quickly spreads beyond this, but in neither case was short- lived. And then so this idea that this is transitory, we will get over it, that, I think, we put the kibosh to here. Then the question becomes how long this drags on. 

ROVE: Yes, well, we don't know. 

CAVUTO: Yes. 

ROVE: But what we had to do in the '70s and '80s was raise interest rates pretty dramatically. And so far, the market hasn't shown a desire to raise interest rates, nor has the Fed shown -- we have gotten hints that they're going to begin tapering, that is to say, slow there flow of money into the -- into the market. 

But we don't know. That's one of the scary things about inflation. Once you turn it on, we don't know exactly how to stop it without having damage elsewhere in the economy. And it's not easy to stop and certainly not easy to stop by pushing a button. 

CAVUTO: All right, now, the administration is convinced that if they can get over their differences, that is, between the moderates and the progressives, to settle on a an acceptable figure for this super human infrastructure package, whatever they're calling it, maybe something in the $2 to $2.5 trillion dollar range, that will goose the economy. 

But in so goosing, if you buy that premise, you will also goose inflation. And I'm just wondering if they might regret what they're hoping for now. 

ROVE: Yes, absolutely. I think they will, because not only will they -- we can't spend our way to prosperity. We may be able to keep people together in a time of great difficulty, like we had last year. 

But I got to tell you, I think the reason that they are seeing their numbers drop on things like taxes and the economy and jobs is because people have a -- sort of a an innate understanding that you can't simply go out there and tax all the -- raise all these taxes, and spend all this money on an expansion of the welfare state, and not have bad impact on the economy. 

And that's why I think people are turning against the administration, not because they aren't -- they haven't raised taxes yet, but because they're talking about raising taxes, not because they haven't passed a gigantic expansion of the welfare state, but because they're talking about doing so. 

So -- and particularly independents. If you look at it, they're turning against the administration big time. And those are the people who are going to decide the 2022 midterm elections. 

CAVUTO: Yes. 

And, real quickly, if you think about it, we talk about 5 to 6 percent year-over-year wage gains, but 8 to 9 percent year-over-year cost gains. So whatever people are adding in their wallet, they're forking out more from their wallet, and they're not feeling that impact. 

ROVE: Yes. 

And, look, they understand it. They're having to live those real effects in their lives when they go to fill up gas at the gas station and see that it's nearly four bucks a gallon. 

CAVUTO: Yes. 

ROVE: Or when they go and say, you know what, I'm paying $1.71 for a dozen eggs. Last month, two months ago, it was $1.60. 

They see these things priced throughout their entire lives. And that has an effect. And this is going to be really bad for the administration if they don't wake up and realize that they have got something coming their way that they don't want to have. 

CAVUTO: Yes, it's hard to swallow when the things that you buy at the grocery store keep going up, up, up and away. 

Karl Rove, thank you very much, my friend. 

In the meantime here, we talk about the labor shortage here, and it's gotten so desperate that a lot of restaurants, store managers and higher- ups, even executives are helping along the front line just to get the food out. Food for thought. 

A big cheese who's doing just that -- after this. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) 

CAVUTO: All right, you have heard a lot about the worker shortage in this country. 

And it's gotten so bad right now that, at stores and restaurants across the country right now, the managers, even the executives are stepping in to help out on the fryolator or the stoves, oven, whatever it takes to get the food to customers, including my next guest. 

A.J. Kumaran is the CEO of Raising Cane's. 

If you're unfamiliar with their product, then, man, oh, man, you have missed life. Their chicken is to die for. They're very big in the South. They're all over the place. And right now, they're very, very popular, but the problem is, so popular, they have got limited staff, and now they're breaking out all the ranks, including the highest ranks, to help get the food out. 

A.J., very good to have you back with us. 

How are things now? 

A.J. KUMARAN, CO-CEO, RAISING CANE'S CHICKEN FINGERS: Well, Neil, if you have any idea of being a restaurant owner, I'd say, wait a minute. It is tough to be a restauranteur these days. 

Product prices are through the roof. 

CAVUTO: Yes. 

KUMARAN: And, of course, now the labor shortages. 

So, it's tough out there. Applicant flow is the lowest we have ever seen it. And we have restaurants all across 31 states in the United States, plus a few other places. And we have over 40,000 crew members. And we really need about 50,000. 

So, we're short. And we have never seen this type of... 

(CROSSTALK) 

CAVUTO: But you have been paying them. You are offering decent pay, benefits, all of that, and yet you can't get enough people. What's the story? 

KUMARAN: You know, honestly, I do not know. I do not know what the fundamental issues are from the bottom. 

Yes, the wages have gone up. We have seen almost 20 percent wage inflation in our business through this year. 

CAVUTO: Wow. 

KUMARAN: And that's almost $100 million that we spend in extra wage dollars on an annualized basis. So, yes, the applicant flow is the lowest it's ever been. 

CAVUTO: So, when you bring the hotshots even like yourself in to help out, I mean, obviously that shows it's all hands on deck. I get that. 

But how long do you think that will continue? 

KUMARAN: So, look, we are -- we really function as a family, Neil. 

You know this. So we're all fry cooks and cashiers. Every one of us who joined the company plus get trained as a fry cook and a cashier before we join whatever we do in our day job, I should say. 

So, when times like these happen, we want all hands on deck, show the support for each other, show the camaraderie. Honestly, we have 750 people of our corporate staff jumping in and help. That is not going to fix the problem, but it's going to boost the morale. It's going to allow us to band together and fight against it. 

And it's working. We are -- we have put the word out there. We're pushing out. We are recruiters. We are fry cooks. We are cashiers. We are whatever we need to be so that we can serve our customers. And, hopefully, it's going to make a difference. 

CAVUTO: I think what would make a difference is, you just gave them the food for free, I mean, if you close the deal that way. 

Are you thinking of that? 

(LAUGHTER) 

KUMARAN: You know, we have. 

Like, 150 of our restaurants out of the 630 that we have, there's some kind of limited hours, whether that is cutting down a channel, cutting out the dining room, cutting out the mobile channel. 

CAVUTO: Yes. 

KUMARAN: We have to give up something, because we don't want to compromise on a great work atmosphere for our crew members. So that's what we have to do. 

We cannot stress them any farther. 

CAVUTO: Yes, just give them the goodies, though. Give them the chicken. Here's all the chicken you can eat and a nice wage, and I think you're off to the races. 

(LAUGHTER) 

CAVUTO: But it's just free advice, A.J., because you have good stuff. So, your customers swear by you. 

But, right now, you must be swearing at the situation because it's a great thing going on. But, obviously, you're pressed with labor.

KUMARAN: Yes, sir. It is a tough time for labor. It's a tough time to be a restaurateur. 

I feel bad for all of the mom and pop, I would say, because... 

CAVUTO: Yes. 

KUMARAN: ... restaurants operate on razor-thin margins. All of us know that. 

We make pennies on the dollar. And when things like this happen, my own favorite restaurants in town here that I go to, half the dining room is shut down. 

CAVUTO: That's not good. 

KUMARAN: Some of them don't open for lunch. 

CAVUTO: That is not good. 

All right. Well, best of luck to you, A.J. I know you will come through this, good food and a good people. We shall see. 

By the way, this whole backdrop is the virus, if you think about it right now, vaccinations and all that. 

And, in Texas, the crackdown on banning mandates across the state, what that means -- after this. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) 

CAVUTO: All right, you have probably heard of states that order vaccine mandates. 

Well, how about in Texas banning those mandates? Texas Governor Greg Abbott issuing that order effective today. 

Reaction now from Dr. Kevin Campbell of K Roc Consulting, the president and CEO, cardiologist by training. I didn't think of that, that he would necessarily, the doctor would be hearing me talking about eating fried chicken and all with my prior guest. So, hopefully, he didn't hear that. 

(LAUGHTER) 

CAVUTO: But, Doctor, always good to have you. 

You're a big believer in just getting people vaccinated. You try to keep the politics out of it. I always appreciate that. But this move in Texas is going in a different way to say, stop it with the vaccine mandates, period. What do you think? 

DR. KEVIN CAMPBELL, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, PACEMATE: You know, I think this is a problem, because, Neil, there's never been a one-size-fits-all approach to treating COVID or to handling the pandemic. 

I think that these mandates need to be left to the local municipalities, the county, city level. I don't think that we should have statewide mandates and I certainly don't think we should have federal mandates.

I think that these are big problems that are more political than they are all about the public health crisis that we're in the middle of. 

CAVUTO: All right, so I know where you're coming from. There are a lot of people who for various reasons are sort of anti-vaccine or certainly anti- government telling them to get a vaccine. 

But we are noticing, whether it's this or other factors resulting right now in cases falling sharply in this country, down 22 percent in the latest week. I guess what I'm asking you, is it the mandate thing? Or do you really care, as long as those numbers go down? 

CAMPBELL: I really think that this is all about the fact that we are doing a better job of getting folks vaccinated. 

The more folks we have vaccinated, which I know is not a popular thing to say among some viewers, we're going to do better. 

CAVUTO: Yes. 

CAMPBELL: We're going to defeat COVID. We're not going to defeat COVID without widespread vaccination. 

There are some cases where mandates have made a difference, particularly in New York, where you are mandating a lot of the workers there get vaccinated. It's making a difference. And, again, a one-size-fits-all approach does not work. 

CAVUTO: Do you recommend your patients and those you advise, period, Doctor, get this booster shot? 

CAMPBELL: I have been very clear with my patients. I think it's very important for those over 65 and those with a chronic medical condition to get a booster shot. 

The data is very clear. It definitely boosts the immunity. We're waiting for other manufacturers to be approved through the FDA. And I expect that they will be approved as well in short order. 

CAVUTO: Real quickly, kids getting a vaccine. Pfizer's waiting for one as young as 5. What do you think of that? 

CAMPBELL: I think it's really important that we vaccinate the youngest and most vulnerable in our population. 

Obviously, we want the data to be there. We want to make sure that it's safe and it's effective and it's not going to harm the children.

CAVUTO: All right. 

CAMPBELL: The data that we have seen so far before the FDA looks really, really good. 

CAVUTO: Got it. 

CAMPBELL: So, I would say, get those kids vaccinated. 

CAVUTO: All right, Doctor, thank you. 

I was only kidding about the fried chicken thing, as if I would ever, ever eat that stuff. 

(LAUGHTER) 

CAMPBELL: No. 

CAVUTO: Of course not. 

Thank you, Doctor. Always good having you... 

CAMPBELL: Thank you. 

CAVUTO: ... and your reasoned approach to all of this. 

Just, everyone, stay healthy. 

Here comes "The Five." 

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