Shelby Steele: 'Cancellation' now an exercise in moral power

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Shelby Steele: 'Cancellation' now an exercise in moral power

Hoover Institution senior fellow reacts to corporate America's attempt to restrict Trump on 'The Story'

This is a rush transcript from "The Story with Martha MacCallum" January 11, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Hey there, Bret. Thank you very much.
Good evening, everybody. I'm Martha MacCallum in New York, and this is THE
STORY. So, as Dorsey and Zuckerberg and Bezos try to cancel the president
and lots of conservatives off of their huge national platforms, their
stocks tumbled today. And an intense battle for freedom of speech in the
United States has truly come to a head and is enjoined in this country
right now.

Meanwhile, President-elect Biden will not take a real stand on whether
dragging the country through another impeachment at this violent and
fragile moment for the country would be a good idea. He does think though,
it could be schedule then if they decide they want to do it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Half a day on dealing
with impeachment, and half a day, getting my people nominated, and
confirmed in the Senate as well as we are moving out. So, let's hold an
expectation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: And so, you have that. All right. So, Congressman Ken Buck, who
feels very strongly about this, joins me in moments. He and other
Republicans just wrote a letter to President-elect Biden. They are
imploring him to stop the impeachment effort and they want him to support a
moment of healing for the whole country. We're going to talk to him in just
a moment.

The Wall Street Journal writes today that the president actually would not
be guilty of inciting violence on January the 6th. Democrats though insist
that they can prove it if it comes to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Every day he's in office, he remains a real and
present danger to the country.

REP. DAVID CICILLINE (R-RI): It's not a waste of time for everyone in this
country and around the world to see us stand up and defend against an
effort to overthrow a duly elected president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: All right. So, let's begin tonight with Byron York, Chief
Political Correspondent for The Washington Examiner, Andy McCarthy, former
Federal Prosecutor. Both are Fox News Contributors. Also joined tonight by
Jeffrey Scott Shapiro, a former D.C. prosecutor who wrote this piece in The
Wall Street Journal today. And he argues that the president did not mention
violence, much less provoke it. So, he'll explain to us his thinking on
that in just a moment.

But, Byron, let me get started with you in terms of what we're watching
unfold here tonight, you've got a lot of threats of violence that are
coming forward for the coming days. And there is a big push among
Democrats. They say they have the votes to impeach the president and they
could do it rather quickly.

BYRON YORK, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I don't think there's any doubt
that they have the votes to impeach the president. They almost have enough
co-sponsors on the articles of impeachment to impeach the president. But
there's enormous confusion about what will happen after that. If they do
pass articles of impeachment this Wednesday, the 13th of January, there's
exactly one week left, and the president drops term.

Now, we know the Senate is not supposed to come back until January 19th.
There are rumors or talk tonight about Charles Schumer, the minority leader
right now trying to come up with some parliamentary maneuver to get the
Senate back earlier. But even then, there's only seven days, six days left
for them to act. And then there's this big debate about whether there could
actually be an impeachment trial of the president when he's the former
president, which personally I think the public might have a hard time going
for that.

But Democrats are seriously considering doing that, giving Joe Biden 100
hundred days to pass his agenda, and then returning for a trial for the
president, the former president.

MACCALLUM: It seems, Andy, that it would be it would be a good thing at
this point for the president-elect to take a firm stance on how he sees
this and what he thinks is best for the country. You heard him there say,
oh, they could have worked on the impeachment, I guess, in the morning and
then they could approve my nominees in the afternoon. Is that enough at
this point?

ANDY MCCARTHY, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I don't think so, Martha. And I
think this goes to the gamesmanship that we're seeing. I'm actually of a
mind that the Constitution does permit an impeachment trial to take place
after the impeach president is gone. But I don't see that the Democrats can
have it both ways. If there's a real need, an emergency needs to do an
impeachment that you have to strip down and make sure and not have the due
process that would normally be attendant to a House impeachment proceeding.

And then after that happens, Speaker Pelosi, instead of transmitting it to
the Senate, can stick it in her pocket. And they're just going to wait
around till some propitious political time for Schumer and Biden. That's
not an impeachment. That's a game.

So, this is either really important and it has to be done this minute,
which means if they vote impeachment, then she should immediately get those
articles to the Senate and they should follow their rules and do nothing
until they've gotten through the trial or there's no reason to do this now.
And you should either just have a censure or do everything after the
president has left office, but with all the due process that you would
normally require.

MACCALLUM: Jeffrey Scott Shapiro, you wrote an interesting piece today, you
said no, Trump isn't guilty of incitement. I think there has been so much
frenzy and people look deeper back into the past to sort of make this case
that that he was not - sort of going after some of these groups that appear
to have been involved in this strongly enough and that he opened the door
for this. But what's your argument?

JEFFREY SCOTT SHAPIRO, FORMER DC PROSECUTOR: Martha, I literally prosecuted
hundreds of people in the District of Columbia during the Iraq war, mostly
on the Left, who had done many things at the U.S. Capitol, that was my job.
I was nicknamed the protester prosecutor by Code Pink because I prosecuted
so many unlawful protesters.

And I can tell you that the standard for a lot of the charges in the
District of Columbia, such as disorderly conduct, unlawful assembly or
inciting a riot are based on the principles of inciting violence. And the
statutory language in D.C. comes from a very important touchstone U.S.
Supreme Court case, Brandenburg versus Ohio. That means that in order to be
guilty or not have First Amendment protection when you're charged with
criminal speech, so to say, is that you are inciting imminent violence or
lawlessness and that your speech is likely to produce violence.

The president made it very clear that he wanted his followers to march
peacefully down to the Capitol and cheer for senators, congressmen, and
women. There is nothing in that speech that is likely to incite violence.
If I was still working as a D.C. prosecutor today and I was at a charging
desk and a police officer came in with a transcript of the president's
words, I would have looked at it no matter who it was, and I would have
told them this affidavit lacks probable cause and I'm rejecting this case
for criminal prosecution.

MACCALLUM: Andy let me go back to you on that, what do you say about that?

MCCARTHY: I think he's absolutely right; I tried a terrorist for incitement
to crimes of violence, there's not a prayer that they could convict
President Trump in a criminal court of incitement. You have to prove that
he intended violence to happen. He said things that were clearly calls for
violence and it was probable under the circumstances that violence could
imminently happen. They're not close to being able to make that case. That
doesn't mean that what he said might not be an impeachable offense because
you don't need a prosecutable criminal case for that. But the idea that
they could prove incitement along the lines of what you'd need for a
criminal case, no way.

MACCALLUM: So, Byron, you find yourself in territory. It just takes me back
to the last impeachment, right. And you ask yourself, well, was there an
actual impeachable offense in that phone call? Right. It seems like a
million years ago in all of our lives. And I don't know how much these
things matter at this point. I think this is an enormous political push.
We're going to talk in a moment about all the companies and all the efforts
to just cancel this president and erase him from history. Your thoughts on
all that?

YORK: Well, by the way, in the last impeachment, at the end of 2019,
Republicans were accusing Democrats of racing to impeachment and cutting
corners all along the way, which they actually weren't doing. But it still
took 85 days from the beginning of impeachment to the actual vote on
articles. Now, it's going to be done in about 24 hours. So, it's absolutely
extraordinary.

But there is another option, which Andy mentioned very briefly, which is
the idea of censure. Kevin McCarthy, the Republican leader in the House
sent out a letter tonight about various options that might be available in
this situation. And one of those he listed was censure. And back in 1998,
when Republicans impeached Bill Clinton, a lot of Democrats said, look, do
not impeach him, let's censure President Clinton.

We Democrats will vote to censure our Democratic president and then that
will handle this. But Republicans were absolutely determined to impeach
Bill Clinton and they did, and it didn't work. So, we could be in a
situation here where there is time to pass an action of censure against the
president in both the House and Senate. And it might get some Republican
votes, by the way, but it appears that Democrats are absolutely determined
to impeach instead.

MACCALLUM: But just a few seconds here, Andy. But I want to ask you, would
that accomplish the goal? It appears that for Democrats, the goal is to
make sure that the president can never run again.

MCCARTHY: Martha, I think it's really ridiculous to be worrying about
whether you have a formal ban on whether the president can run again. If he
did what we all saw last Wednesday and what the wages of it were and you
had a censure that described, it accurately. I don't think there's a chance
that he could stand for office again. But if he did, you could impeach him
then. There's certainly no reason there has to be done now.

MACCALLUM: All right, gentlemen, thank you very much. Jeffrey Scott
Shapiro, interesting piece today. Thank you for being here. Andy McCarthy,
Byron York, always good to have you here. Thanks, gentlemen.

So, Republican Congressman Ken Buck is calling on President-elect Biden to
put a stop to the impeachment effort for the sake of the country. And he
joins me now. Congressman Buck, good to have you here tonight. Everywhere I
go, people talk about how upsetting and horrifying in many ways this whole
period is. When you looked at what happened at the U.S. Capitol and you see
the divisiveness. I mean, I thought we saw divisiveness a year ago. It's
nothing like how frightening it is right now in this country. What is your
message to the president-elect this evening, sir?

REP. KEN BUCK (R-CO): My message is that this is being rushed, this is a
political stunt, and what we need to do is take time and reflect and make
sure that whatever decisions are made regarding the events of January 6th
are done with intelligent action.

This president-elect could gain a lot of goodwill among Republicans and
Democrats, frankly. But among Americans generally, if he told everybody,
slow down, this president is not an imminent threat to this country at this
point. Let's get through the inauguration and let's look back and make some
decisions.

There are all kinds of mistakes that were made, some of epic proportions in
terms of protecting the Capitol building itself. And we really need to form
a commission. We need to look at these issues and we need to come up with
some good ideas moving forward.

MACCALLUM: I think one of the things that people look at is would it make
the country safer if you impeach the president right now. Chad Wolf at DHS
put in his resignation today. So, there you have the acting chief of DHS
saying that he is not going to be there through the next 10 days of this
period. You have a couple of the security officials, Robert O'Brien at the
top, who is the national security adviser, who is staying, it appears, for
the purpose of making sure that he can make things as stable as possible.
What does impeachment do to the safety of the country, in your mind?

BUCK: Well, it doesn't help in any way. If anything, it further divides
this country. When Speaker Pelosi reaches out to the chairman of the Joint
Chiefs of Staff and talks about nuclear codes and then publicizes that
conversation and then she engages in this impeachment without any
investigation, we think we know some of the things that happened during the
day, but we don't know all the things that happened. We don't know who
ordered the National Guard to come in, who order to not to come in
beforehand. There are a lot of questions that that really need answers
before we can make an intelligent decision on who's culpable and where and
how culpable people are.

MACCALLUM: This is David Cicilline, Democrat from Rhode Island. Here's how
he sees it. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CICILLINE: There are some people who think, oh, the president's leaving in
10 days, let's just overlook it. Look, we took an oath to defend and
protect the constitution and our democracy. That responsibility falls to
us. We have no other choice. Congress is obligated under our oath of office
to move forward and impeach this president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: What do you say to that argument?

BUCK: Well, I serve on the Judiciary Committee with Congressman Cicilline,
and I have a lot of respect for him, but he's wrong. We took an oath to
uphold the Constitution. We didn't take an oath to move in a direction that
clearly negates the intent of the impeachment clause and the idea of
impeachment. Impeachment is something you do with great reflection. It's
not something you do as a political stunt and when a president is on his
way out.

MACCALLUM: So, you heard the conversation that we just had about the option
of a censure. There are reports that there are several Republicans, House
Republicans, who believe that that is the way to go. Do you support that
move?

BUCK: I don't. I think there has been a lot of censurable conduct over the
past four or five years, and even before that, I think when the Speaker of
the House rips up the State of the Union address on national television,
when Maxine Waters talks about how Trump supporters should be harassed in
restaurants and public places, when the vice president elect talks about
the riots over the summer in glowing terms, I think there are really issues
that we have to deal with in terms of our rhetoric in this country. But to
point at the president and only censure him, I think is unfair.

MACCALLUM: It's so true. I mean, you think back about the bail funds that
Kamala Harris wanted to raise. She wanted the people who were attacking
small businesses and, in some cases, some of the business owners were
injured in some of those riots. But she wanted, in some cases for people to
get bail so they could get back out on the streets and do protest.

Is there any way to get Democrats on the other side of the aisle and
Republicans to come together and see how destructive all of this is for the
country and try to pull together some kind of unity here?

BUCK: I think there are a lot of personal relationships that will once
again be mended and move forward after January 20th, and I hope that my
fellow, colleagues recognize that we're in the middle of a pandemic, we are
in the middle of an economic crisis, and we have a lot of international
issues to deal with. If we don't come together, we're making a serious
mistake and we're not doing the people's work.

MACCALLUM: There's a job to be done, to be sure, and that is in the best
interest of the people of this country. Thank you very much, Congressman
Buck. Thanks for being here tonight. Good to see you.

BUCK: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: In Colorado. So, we're going to continue this story later with
Karl Rove. And next up, Shelby Steele on Morgan Stanley, Marriott, AT&T,
American Express, many others making a political statement canceling their
donations to Republicans who tried to overturn the Electoral College, where
is all that leading?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: The effort to cancel the president now stretching well beyond
social media as businesses take political stands against Trump and his
companies now. Correspondent Alex Hogan has that story for tonight. Hi,
Alex.

ALEX HOGAN, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Martha. Well, five days after
supporters of President Trump stormed the Capitol, big tech companies
pushing him offline and now big companies rescinding some of their support.
The PGA is severing ties with Donald Trump. The board of directors having a
meeting on Sunday last night announcing that they will cancel the
championship at Trump's New Jersey golf course, which was planned for 2022.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM RICHERSON, PRESIDENT, PGA OF AMERICA: It's become clear that conducting
the PGA Championship, the Trump administer would be detrimental to the PGA
of America brand. It would put at risk the PGA's ability to deliver on many
programs and sustain the longevity of our mission.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOGAN: President Trump's campaign responding calling that a breach of
contract. Educational institutions voiding documents as well. Lehigh
University in Pennsylvania and Wagner College in New York, rescinding
Donald Trump's honorary degrees. A growing number of corporations also
announcing they will suspend political donations to Republicans who opposed
President-elect Joe Biden certification.

Among them, Marriott International, Blue Cross Blue Shield, Airbnb and
American Express. Greeting card company Hallmark making its message clear,
calling the peaceful transition of power part of the bedrock of our
democracy.

The company also pulling campaign contributions from two Republican
senators. Big name financial companies like Citigroup, JPMorgan, Visa are
among those announcing a pause on all political donations. Financial
services company Stripe saying it will no longer process contributions to
Trump's campaign. And over the weekend, social media platform Facebook, as
well as Twitter and Instagram, either suspending or getting rid of his
accounts.

Now, tech servers like Amazon, Google and Apple announcing over the weekend
that they would pull Parler off of their websites and in return now Parler
is suing Amazon. Martha.

MACCALLUM: Alex, thank you very much. So, joining me now, Shelby Steele,
Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution and writer and producer of the
documentary What Killed Michael Brown. We've spoken with him about that
documentary and about racial issues a lot over the recent years. Shelby,
thank you so much for being here tonight. When you listen to Alex's report
and you hear about all of those companies canceling the president, in many
ways, what goes through your mind tonight?

SHELBY STEELE, SENIOR FELLOW, HOOVER INSTITUTION: That cancellation has
become an exercise of moral power. It is - if someone disagrees and they
have a different politics, this is not something you engage in argument.
It's something that you are so morally above that you obliterate, you just
eliminate it, and you don't have to argue, you can get credit for all sorts
of virtuous sentiments when all you've done really is run away from an
issue.

And so, it's a sad thing to see. It cuts off. It undermines our democracy,
which is based on debate and cross-examination and so forth, and evidence.
My film, the one you mentioned, What Killed Michael Brown was canceled by
Amazon. We got a very nasty letter, one that wasn't just official, but that
was actually - there was a tone of moral outrage that they were going to
not accept our film because it was somehow immoral.

It was - because there was no such thing. It was a perfectly reasonable, no
nudity, no excessive bad language, nothing like that. It was they did not
like the message which part was had to do with the film that the black
America was - the protest was fading away as a viable means of advancement.
And that whether one agrees with that and one doesn't agree with that, it's
got to be something that Americans consider and think about for a moment.

But Amazon felt that they were somehow so morally superior to that option,
that option of that they - they were so wonderful, in other words, they
could simply cancel it and move on and do - and thereby do a good service
to American life. So, in that sense, evil is dressed up as good and in
cancellation that seems to me to be the formula.

MACCALLUM: I think that all of these companies set such a dangerous
precedent when they began doing these things, when they started making
political judgments and boycotting different things based on sort of a
moral decision, as you point out. So, now they find themselves where they
have to respond to everything, and they put themselves in a box. They're
going to alienate, obviously, a lot of their customers. We put the very big
names up on the screen for Dow and the like.

Let's put this up on the screen. This is an interesting comparison of the
donations to the Trump campaign and to the Biden campaign by Alphabet,
which is Google and Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, and Facebook. You can see the
tremendous disparity. Google, 4.3 million to the Biden campaign, 106,000 to
Trump, Microsoft, $2.3 million and you can see the Trump comparison at
247,000.

So, it's obviously a striking difference. Not surprising really in that
point. But I want to ask you about sort of - because we've talked a lot
about the changing of - the changing look from some African Americans at
sort of which party actually does really deserve their vote and has done
the most to help these communities' overtime. And I know that you felt that
that President Trump had done a lot of good things for the black community.
So, where does that energy go now?

STEELE: Well, I think, you know, I think I would not say that Donald Trump
was the most sophisticated American when it comes to the complex issue of
race. What I will say, though, is that he made room for, made space for us
to look at this complex issue from another angle. He - and we had been in a
paradigm for 60 years now since the 60s of a racial protest, protest,
protest, and then, of course, always following protests, inevitably,
dependency, dependency, dependency.

The people were protesting. We're asking them to lift us up and take us
forward. Donald Trump made space for another point of view, which is that
dependency and protest are obsolete, they've taken black America as far as
they can take us that now we have to look at a model, a paradigm that is
based more on individual responsibility, on self-help, moving ourselves
forward, not looking outside of ourselves as individuals, but taking
responsibility for that.

Well, that of course, challenges the very foundation politically of the
Left in America. And so, again, let me repeat myself. But going back to
Amazon, that's a message they did not one heard.

MACCALLUM: No, it's clear. And you make great points, Shelby. Before I let
you go, I just want to ask you the tail end of my question again. Where
does that go from here? If there was growth in that belief and a way that
some African American voters were looking differently at which party could
do something to allow them to succeed on their own. Where does that energy
go now, do you think?

STEELE: It's one of the things I like most about the Trump era, let's say.
There is beginning to be, certainly in black America, a counterpoint to 60
years of rather tired and exhausted liberalism. There are young people
seriously considering other ideas now.

Looking beyond the gestures of protest and toward the idea of
responsibility as an energy, a transformative energy. And that is a -
that's a wonderful thing. And I'm sad to see Trump depart because I think
he was the right guy to sort of make space for that new point of view to
emerge. But it will emerge and at this point, that job is done. It will
emerge and will, I think, become more and more a part of our politics, a
way of life.

MACCALLUM: Shelby Steele, thank you very much, sir. Always good to have you
here. Thanks for being here.

STEELE: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: So, still ahead tonight - thank you, sir. Still ahead tonight,
how Trump voters who spoke to us throughout the campaign are feeling about
where they are with everything now, after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM (on camera):  Breaking tonight, the FBI is warning that there
could be armed protests in all 50 state capitols and in Washington, D.C.,
before, during, and after the inauguration day. The warning spark by fears
of more violence after last week's deadly storming of the United States
Capitol.

The Secret Service is saying that they will begin tightening security for
inauguration day this Wednesday, almost a week earlier than they had
planned to do that. Up to 15,000 National Guard members from several states
could be deployed in Washington during this upcoming inauguration of the
president-elect.

Also breaking tonight new concerns about COVID on Capitol Hill after last
week's riot force, lawmakers shelter together closely for hours. Today, a
75-year-old New Jersey congresswoman who was in that secure room announced
that she had tested positive for COVID.

White House correspondent Kevin Corke with the following tonight on that
story. Hi, Kevin.

KEVIN CORKE, FOX NEWS WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT:  Good evening, Martha. It
continues to build, the numbers that is of cases of COVID-19 and deaths for
that matter all across the country even as the vaccine rollout begins to
pick up some steam.

The U.S. now recording an average, Martha, of 3,239 virus deaths each and
every day. And if that weren't bad enough, as you mentioned there is great
and growing concern on Capitol Hill. In fact, Congress' attending physician
has warned House members that they may have been exposed to the virus last
week after evacuating the House chamber after violent protesters stormed
the U.S. Capitol.

In an e-mail attending Dr. Brian Monahan writing that, after evacuating to
a large committee hearing space, members may have been exposed to another
occupant with the virus infection. He goes on to say in an e-mail, please
continue your usual daily coronavirus risk reduction measures and obtain an
RT PCR coronavirus test next week as a precaution. Monahan goes on to say
in that e-mail.

Now as you know, Martha, age is a significant risk factor for cases of
severe COVID-19. In fact, according to the Mayo Clinic, about 80 percent of
U.S. deaths from the virus have been people 65 years of age and older. And
the average age of the House Democratic leadership in the last Congress was
71. Of course, new Congress just started.

You mentioned this and this is important, in fact, it's worth pointing out
that a couple of members since that they may have now announced that they
have COVID-19. Republican Representative Jake LaTurner of Kansas announcing
he tested positive for COVID-19 though he confirmed that the day of the
attack.

And then today as you pointed out, we also learned that New Jersey
Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman has tested positive for the virus. She
believes she was infected while isolating during the riots with other
lawmakers who, in her words, refused to wear masks. Watson Coleman is 75
years old. Clearly in the risk category. We'll see if others are impact
moving forward, Martha.

MACCALLUM:  All right. Kevin Corke, thank you very much, Kevin, in D.C.
tonight.

CORKE:  You bet.

MACCALLUM:  So, some Trump voters who say that siege at the United States
Capitol was a disgrace. Also believed that impeachment is not the answer
for them and we will hear from them after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM (on camera):  Tonight, two voters who joined us before election
day and later voted for President Trump were back once again to talk about
the events that have transpired since then and what they think about all of
this.

We welcome back Christopher Formoso, a financial manager from Florida and
Jolene Austin, a stay-at-home mom from Ohio. It was a pleasure to meet both
of you and talk to you during the course of the campaign. And I wonder, I
guess first of all, Christopher, I just want to start with you, have your
thoughts changed or your feelings about the president changed since
election day? What do you think?

CHRISTOPHER FORMOSO, TRUMP VOTER:  A little bit. I've always been a fan
more of Trump's policies more than the person. But I did wish that once he
lost the election and then he took it to court which he had every right to
do. Once he lost in court, he should have been able to walk away with some
dignity. He kept the tirade going for two more weeks, which culminated on
January 6th. The terrible acts that happened that day. I feel like he sold
his name and all the good that he did during his four years were sold on
that day.

MACCALLUM:  Christopher, do you think it was his -- do you think he is to
blame for what happened? I mean, you know, when you watch those videos and
you see some of those people, you know, what goes through your mind? Do you
blame him for that though?

FORMOSO:  I don't think he is ultimately responsible. It's definitely the
thousand or so people, fools, that went to the capitol to cause this
destruction and to protest with no peace whatsoever. They are the ones to
blame but Donald Trump, in that speech he said go there and protest
peacefully. he didn't say other remarks that could be misinterpreted by a
large group of fools and we saw what that could turn into.

MACCALLUM:  Staying with you, Christopher, and then I'm going to get to
Jolene. But what would you like to see him do in the remaining nine days of
his presidency?

JOLENE AUSTIN, TRUMP VOTER:  I would really like to see Trump show class.
You know, he already said there will be a peaceful transition on January
20th. Let's go away with some dignity. There are still 72 million people
that did vote for him. I think that we need to have unity, especially right
now, I think he needs to call for everyone. I don't think that we need
protest at the next, you know, the 50 capitols as what people are calling
for. I'm saying enough is enough. It is time to change over.

MACCALLUM:  So what would you tell him to say, Jolene, and then I'm going
to go back to Chris. You know, what, if you ever talk to him, what would
you have him say to those people who are talking about those armed protests
at 50 state capitols tonight, what would you ask him?

AUSTIN:  I would tell him that it is an attack on our democracy and I think
that he knows that. He, like I said, it's over. And I believe that
President Trump does know that. But he really needs to reach out to
everyone, and especially with these protests. Especially with the COVID,
especially with what happened on Wednesday. Violence is never going to be
the answer. All it does is anger of the other side more and actually it is
anger, the Republicans, just as much as did the Democrats.

MACCALLUM:  Do you think that, would you like to see him attend the
inauguration, Jolene?

AUSTIN:  I would find that between the new feeling of Biden, unfortunately
I don't think he should go. Pence is more than capable of taking his spot,
it's not that I like that idea. You know, even Obama hadn't gone to
President Trump's but I think enough damage has been done between that
relationship between the two men.

MACCALLUM:  So, Chris, what would you like to see the president do if you
could tell him with the last nine days of his presidency?

FORMOSO:  I think I would tell him that most politicians they make great
mistakes all the time. Trump I would go out there, apologize and try to
rectify the situation. And he is a prideful person.

I'd say you go to the inauguration with your head held up high and show the
people that you are a good person. You are better than what they are making
you out to be. And show some dignity and try to add some peace to the world
because they were so much division, so much hate right now. And it's a
scary place for me and my family and my three kids.

MACCALLUM:  Chris, what do you think about the rupture that we've heard
about between the president and the Vice President, Mike Pence? It's been
reported that they are not speaking to each other right now.

FORMOSO:  It's a shame to see. And remember, they are the leaders of the
Republican Party for the past four years. They still are today. Make some
peace and show the world we are a party of unity, a party of supporting one
another. I would like to see them make peace before in these last nine
days. There is still plenty of time to do so.

MACCALLUM:  Jolene, what you think about the impeachment push?

AUSTIN:  I believe the impeachment push should not happen. At the earliest,
I think they said if they invoke the 25th amendment he could be possibly
taken out of presidency the day before. I think that's just going to divide
us more. I do not feel that he is going to try to, you know, do anything
for the rest of his presidency.

As I said, he already said January 20th, there is going to be a peaceful
transition. I don't find impeaching him, at this point, to do anything but
divide this entire country even more. And I believe that if they did try to
impeach him, that would cause more violent protest on inauguration day.

MACCALLUM:  Jolene, thank you very much. Christopher, great to have both of
you here. Jolene Austin, we met on the campaign trail and had a great talk
and Christopher Formoso, you've been a great guest to the show as well
through the course of the campaign, big Trump supporters, both of you. And
we thank you for your thoughts tonight. Good to see you tonight.

AUSTIN:  Thank you.

FORMOSO:  Thank you.

MACCALLUM:  So Karl Rove has been listening to our conversation. We'll talk
to him about the future, about his reflections on what those two voters had
to say tonight, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM (on camera):  Just moments ago, this crossing Patriots head coach
Bill Belichick announcing that he will no longer accept the Presidential
Medal of Freedom at the White House. Citing the quote, "tragic events of
last week."

Here now with reaction to everything that we are talking about tonight.
With the voters that we just spoke with. And a lot going on this evening.
Karl Rove joins us, former deputy chief of staff under President George W.
Bush and a Fox News contributor. Karl, good evening. Thanks for being here
tonight.

KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR:  Good evening. You bet.

MACCALLUM:  I just go, I want to get to the Trump voters with you in just a
second, but John Roberts is reporting this this evening that some time, a
short time ago, the president and vice president met in the Oval Office,
had a good conversation according to this report. And they discussed the
week ahead and reflected on the last four years.

They reiterated that those who broke the law and stormed the capitol last
week do not represent the America first movement backed by 75 million
Americans. And pledge to continue to work on behalf of the country for the
remainder of their term. Your thoughts on that tonight, Karl.

ROVE:  Well, a little bit of normality, the last Wednesday the president
was standing in front of the White House, the south side of the White House
and talking about how he hoped his vice president would commit an
unconstitutional act, that is to say taking into himself the ability, the
power of sole discretion over who actually were the electors first state
and in essence to overturn the election results.

So, I'm glad the two men met. But the damage was already done last
Wednesday by the president. And pouring out his vice president and saying
that if the vice president didn't undertake an unconstitutional act he
would like him. So glad they had a coming together today. A reproche mon, I
guess in French, but the damage was done.

MACCALLUM:  What do you think about the Mike Pence story sort of,
throughout the course of this. Obviously, he would be somebody who would
naturally want to look ahead to potentially running for president, most
vice presidents consider themselves a good candidate for that. And why, you
know, he might want to make this point tonight that he is trying to mend
fences.

ROVE:  Well, I think he does want to go out on a, you know, on a good note.
I mean, the vice president has been a consistent advocate for the
president, a defender of his actions and words. And, you know, I've known
the vice president not well but for a number of years.

In fact, in May of 2016 in a meeting to three people in an apartment in New
York then Canada, Donald Trump turned to me and said who do you think I
ought to pick for vice president? And I said, you ought to take a look at
Mike Pence, the Midwesterner who got sensible views and wasn't critical of
you while he supported somebody else. He helps unify the party. And he's
got a great support among Evangelicals around the country. But he's been a
loyal vice president, and he deserved better than he got last Wednesday.

MACCALLUM:  Your thoughts on the voters who we spoke with. We had spoken to
both of them over the course of the campaign, kind of touching base with
them about what they thought. What did you think about what they had to say
tonight?

ROVE:  A lot of good common sense there. And they reminded me a lot of my
friends who are Trump supporters, not very political, some of them and that
they liked what he did but they were clear about who he was and how he
sometimes took actions that they didn't like.

But I thought a lot of good common sense there. Jolene, I thought was
absolutely right. The president would have been and well advised to go to
the inaugural but having announced that he is not going to go. Now it's
better that he not flip and turn around, but that she wished he had.

I thought Christopher was right on target when he lamented how the
president's words and actions had overshadowed his accomplishments. And I
thought there was a lot of good common sense there. You know 75 million
people, me among them voted for the president in November. And you know, he
has done a lot but there's been a -- particularly this last week,
problematic.

MACCALLUM:  Karl Rove, always good to see you. Thank you very much, Karl,
for being here tonight.

ROVE:  You bet, thank you.

MACCALLUM:  See you soon. Coming up, a message about the next chapter of
THE STORY after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM (on camera):  So, we want to share with you that on inauguration
week, January 18th, THE STORY will move to a new time at 3 p.m. Eastern. We
brought you news and announced this year every night at this time for the
past four years. And we look forward to seeing you in our new time or you
can DVR THE STORY every day and you can watch it at whatever time you like.

Our team is grateful for your outpouring of support today. And always for
this program, we are committed to covering the stories of these tumultuous
times in our country in the fair, straightforward way that you have come to
expect from us. And we will continue to do that every single day.

We live in the greatest country in the world. We owe it all to our veterans
and their stories that we have covered here in depth. We'll continue to do
that too, by the way, we want to make sure that their sacrifices were not
in vain. That the United States will prevail through this time and we will
all be stronger for it.

As always, THE STORY continues and we will be back tomorrow night at seven.
Have a great night, everybody. We'll see you then.


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