RNC chairwoman: Democrats used COVID to create election chaos

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RNC chairwoman: Democrats used COVID to create election chaos

Ronna McDaniel reacts to Nevada voter fraud hearing, other election developments on 'The Story'

This is a rush transcript from "The Story with Martha MacCallum" December 3, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

So good evening, everybody. I'm Martha MacCallum in New York and this is
"THE STORY". So let's take you back here for a moment, in 2018, in the
Governor's Election in Georgia. Stacey Abrams lost the race to Brian Kemp,
who is now the Governor. That was 758 days ago. And she has still yet to
concede the race.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STACEY ABRAMS, FOUNDER FAIR FIGHT ACTION: Let's be clear. This is not a
speech of concession. Because concession means to acknowledge an action is
right, true, or proper. As a woman of conscience and faith, I cannot
concede that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: And her supporters never, ever gave up that fight. In fact, they
still refer to her as the legitimate Governor of Georgia. She even
participated in the governor's panel with all of the people who actually
are governors during the DNC. So, Stacey Abrams has spent the last couple
of years not only casting doubt on the result of the elections that she
lost, but also working furiously to change the system in Georgia in ways
that she hopes will drive up votes for Democrats, and it worked in the
national election this time around.

So this week we learned though that one of the groups that she helped to
launch, called the new Georgia project, is one of the groups that is under
investigation now by the Secretary of State, who is looking for any
instances of groups that try to register out-of-state, or dead voters to
vote in the presidential election, this is a state where the President lost
to the Former Vice President Joe Biden by two tenths of 1 percent, very,
very slim margins.

So, you can bet that for both sides, they know that every vote is going to
count and matter a lot in this Georgia Senate race, so President Trump is
heading there. He will be there on Saturday for a rally for Kelly Loeffler
and David Perdue as they content those Senate races. In many ways, the
leaders of the turnout machine in Georgia, is going to be President Trump
and Stacey Abrams. That is why today, the Trump side sort of began to turn
the way they were looking at these two so-called advocates of the
Presidents fight for the election.

Attorneys at Lin Wood and Sidney Powell have been telling Republicans in
Georgia on the ground not to vote on January 5th or before, when voting
starts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would encourage all Georgians to make it known that
you will not vote at all until your vote is secure.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do not be fooled twice. This is Georgia. We ain't dumb.
We are not going to go to vote on January 5th, with another machine made by
China.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: All right. So tonight, we welcome Georgia Congressman Doug
Collins, Congressman, good to have you here tonight. Thank you.

REP. DOUG COLLINS (R-GA): Martha, it's good to see you.

MACCALLUM: So there was a pretty subtle shift in the way that the Trump
team and his supporters and allies started to look at the situation after
we saw that moment yesterday with Lin Wood and Sidney Powell on that stage,
exhorting people, Republicans in Georgia, not to vote in this election. So
then, we saw this tweet from the Trump war room, saying, "Lin Wood has for
decades voted for and donated to Democrats, including Barack Obama and
David Perdue's 2014 opponent, then Newt Gingrich, support of the President,
chimed in, "Lin Wood and Sidney Powell are totally destructive, every
Georgia conservative who cares about America must vote in a runoff. Their
"don't vote" strategy will cripple America." What do you think about that?

COLLINS: Well, look this is a very simple choice. If voters in Georgia
based on conservative on Republicans who vote for Georgia, who vote for
Trump, who like what has happened the last four years, this is a vote about
going forward and not going backward. So, we've got to have everybody turn
out. There are issues with the election. I respect everybody - I will be
the one who is fighting, as others fighting for this. We are filing suits.
That's going through the process.

But if Georgia Republicans and conservatives do not show up and vote, then
there is no way that we keep these seats, and that is what has got to
happen. Because I do not want to see Chuck Schumer become the leader in the
Senate, in which we don't have just a change in the Senate, we have a
reversion in the Senate. You want to see the tax cuts go away. You want to
see these legislative victories that the President has made. Then you've
got to let David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler, because if we don't, then it's
a voter say - for Trump voters, it is a vote not to keep what Trump has
done. We've got to make that clear. This election is that important.

MACCALLUM: Let's talk about the dynamic and how that has changed. You heard
the intro to this about Stacey Abrams and how she never conceded her
election for the governor's race. She and others have worked really hard to
drive up the Democrat vote in Georgia. You know, what is your assessment of
how effectively they have done that? It seemed like it works for the
squeaker in the national election. And is anything going to change in terms
of the dynamic on January 5th?

COLLINS: Well, things going to dynamic, we have been shining a lot of
sunshine and making - and putting and asking questions hard questions -
harder question than the Secretary of State. Why did they enter in to a
consent decree that for most - but that's who look the election actually
weaken the signature verification that we saw in Georgia? Actually, why did
we go ahead and agree to sending an absentee ballot request to every
registered voter in Georgia, no matter if their - the rolls that their
address as some.

MACCALLUM: Have either one of those things change for the next election?

COLLINS: Yes. We are not doing - that's what we are doing. The issues now
is that we are seeing the signature ballots, we are asking still for an
audit, I know that the governor has asked for that, but also at the same
point in time, when you are actually now putting the pressure on to make
sure these things are happen, we need to make sure that the election office
and Secretary of State are making these fair elections. But also, I have to
say Martha, while we are doing this people cannot give up on the system
because right now, we have got to turn our voters back out.

Now if Stacey Abrams has never conceded the governor's race, I don't know
if I can call her a Former Governor, but here's the problem she had. She
worked actually to try and weaken these standards. She actually got in the
consent decree that was signed by the State of Georgia into the state that
actually weakened this. But also, they actually went out and encourage
their voters to use the absentee ballot system to make it work. That is
what we saw here. So, for Republicans, it is time for us to also get back
out and make sure that every vote that we have gets out to vote, if they
can get to the polls, we won at the polls, if not then we do it.

MACCALLUM: Let me ask you simple question, then. The two things that you
mentioned, the weakening of the signature match, will that be any different
for this Senate election?

COLLINS: I think it is actually now is calling attention to we're going to
actually more, there have been discussions with Secretary of State
obliviously she's now investigating how these were actually done. I believe
there is going to be more scrutiny on it then we've had in the last
election. That's what I am saying.

MACCALLUM: That you've got - people started voting in a few days in
Georgia. So I'm hearing that so far, that rule has not changed, is that
correct? As of right now, has it changed?

COLLINS: No, it has not changed. And the problem is who is going to change
it, because this is the issue here in a middle of an election cycle here. I
would like to say the general assembly would have a chance to act on this,
they did not. That is what we are in the middle of now, with six weeks left
to go. We got to turn people out.

MACCALLUM: It's a Republican control, general assembly, correct?

COLLINS: It is.

MACCALLUM: Why wouldn't they act on this if they felt like it was, you
know, handled - not handled correctly? And also, is everybody going to get
a ballot, just like they did last time? Or do you have to apply for one and
ask for one if you can make it to the polls? Does that change?

COLLINS: Yes. Nobody actually got a ballot. They got a request for a ballot
sent out. And that is what the Democrats have asked for because for people
and what we did see is we saw a lot of people who had never voted in a long
time actually use the absentee process. Look the governor can call a
special session in the general assembly could with three fifths votes. They
don't have three fifths votes. The governor could call his excuse and
reason for not calling a special session was, it no matter what they pass,
it would not be effective for this campaign because he believes the courts
would strike him down.

Now that is his reason for not doing it, there's a lot of people, though,
they want to see this actually taken out. That is why we have lawsuits
going on, that's what we having to see if we can get this work. But tight
now, it is imperative that we take what we have been given and have turn
out to be the key in this race. And Georgia, it has always been the issue
for Republicans turning on special elections. We have always done well on
that. We've got to that again, because the Democrats to see the very real
possibility of taking the Senate in this.

MACCALLUM: All right. I mean you know, and Lindsey Graham was here last
night, he said all you need in Georgia is for one person to verify a
signature, every signature on a mail-in ballot should be verified in a
bipartisan way is that going to change in Georgia for the upcoming
election?

COLLINS: At this point that is not - well, that was part of this whole
issue, that's why we have been talking so much about this consent decree
and why there has been so much scrutiny placed on the Secretary of State,
not in a sense of in a personal attack, but to simply say why did we sign
this that actually now you can take any signature and match to the ballot?
Also, in Georgia, you have - at least we take this out, we have - once they
are separated from the envelope, the ballot doesn't have a mark on it they
would identify it back to the actual signature. So once they are separated,
it makes it even harder. These are things that have to be corrected, but
right now, there are also things that have to deal with in this next
election.

MACCALLUM: Well, in some ways, it makes you kind of, understand why people
are frustrated when they go back in there to vote again, they feel like the
same thing is going to happen to them again, since there has not been a
concerted effort to change what they feel was wrong last time around. So we
are going to stay on it. And watch it closely. Congressman, thank you. Good
to have you here tonight.

COLLINS: Thanks Martha. Take care.

MACCALLUM: So, joining me now, Katie Pavlich, Townhall.com News Editor and
Host of "The Guy Benson Show", Guy Benson. Both are Fox News Contributor,
Katie and Guy great to have you here. Tonight Katie, you know what is your
reaction to his answers to those questions?

KATIE PAVLICH, townhall.com NEWS EDITOR: Well, I think that there is a big
risk to some of the language and strategy of some of the folks who have
been down in Georgia trying to sort out some of the things that have gone
on that are completely valid, but this idea that if you think that the
President won Georgia, and you believe that he is going to still win the
White House, why would you then decide that you are going to saddle him
with a Democratic Senate and a Democratic house, where he would be unable.

And really not capable of standing up in a big way against big policy
agenda items the left has been pushing, and they need a Democratic Senate -
a Democratic run Senate to get it through. Why would you want him to have
to deal with that, rather than dealing with Republican Senate that has been
so crucial to his legacy over the last four years? And also, if you want to
protect his legacy, you want Republicans to win in Georgia. You don't want
Chuck Schumer going in and rewinding the clock on a number of policy
initiatives that the President has put forward during his time in the White
House.

MACCALLUM: So, you know Guy, it's fascinating because this whole "don't
vote" thing that you saw orchestrated by Lin Wood and Sidney Powell, has
Democrats in Georgia have jumped on it. They love it. So they want to sort
of exacerbate it with their own voices, and they are doing these, kind of,
parity billboards, I think we have a picture of one of them, saying that
people should write in President Trump for Senate. And then you've got
celebrities, Daniel Newman, doing this thing, another parity, here is what
he said, it is his appeal to Georgia voters, listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANIEL NEWMAN, ACTOR, MODEL AND MUSICIAN: Listen, I like Kelly Loeffler
just fine, OK? But the truth is she is a girl. She can't be a Senator. For
the Senate race, we are all going to write in Donald Trump.

BRIAN GUEST, ACTOR AND WRITER: That's why I'm asking you to write in
Senator President Donald J. Trump for Senator.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: So they are having a field day with this - with opening here
Guy?

GUY BENSON, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's understandable, right? The
biggest smiles in the room are Chuck Schumer and Kamala Harris, the latter
of whom would be the tie-breaking vote in the Senate to make the Former
Chuck Schumer the majority leader, right? And I think the only way
Republicans if you look at history, they tend to do well, Doug Collins
mentioned this, the Congressman just a moment ago.

Republicans historically do very well in this runoff election in Georgia.
The way they can lose is if the Democrats are united, which they are, and
Republicans are at each other's throats and divided. And even if you get,
because I am hearing from people on the ground, who are plugged in that
race, they are saying it is a very close race, both of them. Perdue and
Loeffler had very tight races on their hands. It just takes a small sliver
of Trump supporters and Republican voters to say it's not worth it, it's
not worth my time, the whole thing is rigged I'm not going to participate.

If they sit out, that is the path to victory for the Democratic Party. They
know it, which is why they are stoking these fires. And by the way, as you
mentioned, Lin Wood, that attorney who is pretending, at least, to be, or
putting himself out there as a big Trump supporter, he is a two-time Barack
Obama donor. He donated against David Perdue's Democratic opponent last
time. He has voted in Democratic primaries. I mean, he is stoking the fires
that Democrats hope turn into a blaze to burn down the Republicans chances
and hand the Senate and the Federal Government completely over to the
Democrats. It's pretty extraordinary to watch.

MACCALLUM: Indeed, it is. Indeed, it is. It is an unbelievably tight race.
I want to ask both of you a little bit about this, as well. This is
President Trump when was asked today, because he has been frustrated with
the lack of action, as he sees it, on the part of the Department of Justice
into these election investigations. Here is what he said when asked about
Attorney General Barr.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He hasn't done anything, so
he hasn't looked. When he looks, he'll see the kind of evidence that right
now you are seeing in the Georgia Senate, you know, they are going through
hearings right now in Georgia, and they are finding tremendous volume.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you still have confidence in Bill Barr?

TRUMP: Ask me that in a number of weeks from now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Katie, what did you think about that?

PAVLICH: I think that the President is being extraordinarily unfair to
Attorney General Bill Barr. He is the one who warned in September that
mail-in voting was like playing with fire, citing past cases of voter fraud
is a result of mass mailing voting, it's not accurate to say that the
justice department hasn't looked into this, the U.S. Attorney in Nevada
actually looked into that case of the 3000 votes where there are question
about residency that ended up being military votes.

When Bill Barr is talking about evidence, he is talking about evidence that
has to miscible in court that can presented to a judge or a even a jury
with no reasonable doubt and be proven in court. Bill Barr is not saying
that there aren't some irregularities, that there may be evidence of very
suspicious situations which we've seen all over the country that continue,
but he is talking about evidence that his attorneys, U.S. Attorneys and
prosecutors, can bring to a judge in a court and prove, and they are
continuing to look at cases that continue to come in, but they have to
build a case on these things, which they have been unable to do.

MACCALLUM: Right. Quick thought, Guy?

BENSON: Can I just say what she said? I mean she has completely nailed that
(inaudible) didn't that answered. That's exactly right. And the things is,
that final question, that piece, are you still satisfied with the
performance of Bill Barr, do you have confidence in Bill Barr? He says,
well, talk to me in a few weeks. It should not be outcome oriented. Either
Bill Barr is doing a good job as Attorney General or he is not, and that
does not depend on whether or not some magical evidence is conjured by Barr
and the DOJ. I think, as Katie said, that is an unfair characterization.

MACCALLUM: Yes. And it is worth pointing out, when Bill Barr - that he saw
evidence that there was spying on the Trump campaign, he was one of the
most - one of the biggest bulldogs in fighting for that. I think he has
been looking with the evidence lies and where it doesn't, and that's what
he says, it is right now, if anything comes to change that opinion, I would
imagine they would look at it again. Guy, thank you. Katie, thank you. Good
to see you both tonight.

PAVLICH: Thanks, Martha.

MACCALLUM: So, there is an election fraud hearing that we have been
monitoring in Nevada. It just wrapped for the day. This is the first
official hearing where the Trump campaign is expected to offer sworn
actually testimony in front of a judge into alleged voter irregularities in
last month election. So RNC Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel is here to walk us
through what is going on there, and elsewhere, when we come back. Don't go
away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: So breaking moments ago, they wrapped up in Nevada tonight. It's
the first official election fraud hearing in front of a judge, where the
Trump campaign will offer sworn testimony to their alleged irregularities
in last month's election results. It is different from the other hearings
that we have been watching play out over the last few weeks because those
are not technically legal proceedings, because they were not in front of a
judge. So tonight, there is a judge, and most of the witnesses are going to
remain anonymous, we are told, for their own protection. Here is what both
sides said in their opening arguments moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSE BINNALL, ATTORNEY: To avoid the debasement and pollution that comes
with the vote fraud and irregularities is to grant the contest and to
strike the Biden voters from representing Nevada in the Electoral College.

KEVIN HAMILTON, ATTORNEY: This election was fair. The votes were counted
correctly, and Joe Biden won. It is time to accept that and this case comes
to an end.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: So, joining me now to discuss what we are watching and how
Republicans will try to hope to see this play out is RNC Chairwoman Ronna
McDaniel, Ronna, thank you. Great to have you here tonight.

RONNA MCDANIEL, RNC CHAIRWOMAN: Great to be with you. Thanks for having me.

MACCALLUM: So, I want to put up with the Nevada GOP just tweeted out,
because they claim that this is the testimony, and this is the information
that they have submitted to the judge in Nevada. It says that we have
almost 8,000 ballots cast by voters with addresses that are physically
nonexistent in Nevada, approximately 15,000 votes registered to vacant - or
commercial voters registered to vacant or commercial properties that cast
ballots.

So, this is important to point out, these are actual ballots that were
cast, 2,468 votes by voters that legally change their address to another
state or another country, approximately 42,000 voters who voted twice in
Nevada. 1500 voters who were listed as deceased by the social security
administration. Almost 20,000 Nevada voters with a non-Nevada mailing
address, and about 6,000 USPS flags on vacant addresses of votes that were
cast in the election that - we haven't seen those, but that is what they
are saying is the evidence that was submitted. What do you think about this
Nevada case, and it is a different than what we have seen so far?

MCDANIEL: Well, obviously, Martha, if you total all of that, it means
Donald Trump will win Nevada. If you have 42,000 voters double voting,
including people voting from abandoned residences and casting votes, we've
had staff on the ground, knocking doors, and actually collecting this
evidence, and running against our data. And I do think it is important that
we get to the bottom of this, especially with Nevada and the law changes
they put in place before this election, which we sued them for doing.

We lost in court because they codified it into law, but they absolutely try
to make it the most porous election, so everybody got a ballot, so that
anybody could vote, whether you live there or not, they did not check their
voter rolls, and this is what you are getting, chaos on the back end, and I
think it is good that we called this to attention and we make sure that we
don't let this happen again. And I'm glad it's in the court, and the rest
of the country needs to pay attention to what is happening in Nevada.

MACCALLUM: So we will see what the judge, what his assessment is of this
evidence, and the sworn testimony that he will be reviewing, as well. There
was a piece today in "The Federalist" and it was entitled "were insecure
voting processes this year's insurance policy" for Democrats, election
tampering happened in plain sight it consisted of demanding and getting a
chaotic mess of constantly changing voter rules, layered atop early in
person and mail-in voting that started long before election day. I would
imagine you agree with that take.

MCDANIEL: I absolutely agree with that. I think COVID gave a cover for
Democrats to strip election integrity. I was saying that when it was
happening back in August, when they were just sending live ballots to
people who do not live at the address that they were sending it to. You
know, Martha, there are things that ensure a safe and fair election. A
person actually requesting a ballot is part of that, and Democrats stripped
that away.

Voter ID laws, signature verification, changing the settings on the machine
in Nevada, what they did in Georgia in the do consent decree, and what's
hard for us at the RNC and the Trump campaign is these were codified into
law, legislatures were called into special sessions and laws were changed
by governors, 30, 60, 80 days out from an election. There is nothing
unconstitutional about that, but it absolutely wreaks chaos in the
selection and why so many Republicans feel something happened with this
election that was not right. And you should not have a 45-day election or a
two month election, there is an election day for a reason, and this
election is proving that and Democrats used COVID to create chaos.

MACCALLUM: Yes. And you know and you make an interesting point because -
and that is why I think it is very difficult to get anywhere in this fight,
in a lot of ways, and perhaps why the attorney general looks at the
legislation that you talked about and says, you know what, they change the
rules. It might be - you know, it might have been sneaky, but it's not
illegal. And so that raises the question, I interviewed Brad Parscale the
other day, and he suggested that we wanted to have a day of election teams
in place all across the country, an army of people who are watching this
process very closely, and he said that it didn't happen the way it was
planned to happen. What do you say to that?

MCDANIEL: Well, I love Brad, but I disagree with him on that, because I
worked with Justin Clark at the campaign who put that together, and there
were hundreds of people in Detroit and Philadelphia and Maricopa County.
When I am talking about with Nevada, when they change the setting on the
machine that happened months earlier, we sued against that, and we lost.
Pennsylvania, we took it to the Supreme Court, we lost. So, some of these
things were done by legislators and Democrats changing laws on the fly and
using COVID as an excuse.

And Georgia, those are Republicans who did that and they weaken their
election process, but it's hard for parties or candidates to sue when it is
codified by legislative authorities, and that is the problem that we have,
but I will tell you, they weakened our system, they made it porous, and
they allowed room for fraud, and this is what we are seeing across the
country.

MACCALLUM: So, is Georgia going to be any different this time around? That
is a question a lot of people's minds, right now.

MCDANIEL: It will be. It will be. And I say this to people, get out and
vote for Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue. We can chew gum and walk at the
same time. We can fight for the President and keep the Senate at the same
time. And we have to do both. And if people down there who are saying
whether they are working on behalf of the President are saying don't keep
the Senate, shame on them. We have to do both. This is our country, and if
we want election laws to be put in place that keep our elections fair and
free, we need Republicans in the Senate to push that forward. And we know
Chuck Schumer won't do it.

MACCALLUM: Ronna, thank you very much. Good to have you here tonight.

MCDANIEL: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: Ronna McDaniel. So right now, in Kentucky, you can go to work,
you can go to gym. You can even go out and see a movie. But you can't send
your child to a religious school. Those are locked down tight. So, the
Kentucky Attorney General is not happy about that. He says it is a blatant
attack on the first amendment, and he is taking it to court and to the
Supreme Court if necessary. Daniel Cameron is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: Some breaking news tonight in California where Governor Gavin
Newsom has now announced some severe new mandatory lockdowns that will
impact the majority of residents in his state beginning this week. If the
capacity of local hospitals and intensive care units falls below 15
percent, he will initiate new stay-at-home orders and stay, and those will
stay in effect for up to three weeks.

So far, it looks like the intensive care units in four of the states five
regions will fall into that category. That means the majority of California
is looking at a lockdown for the next three weeks. Newsom also says they
plan to implement more strict rules on community gatherings and in person
shopping, as well, and they will also limit restaurants and take out -- to
take out delivery only, so some changes afoot in California tonight.

So, Kentucky's attorney general and a private Christian school filed an
emergency request with the Supreme Court trying to overturn an order from
Kentucky's governor that shut down all in-person learning at K through 12
schools in the states at the end of November, including private religious
schools due to COVID-19.

Kentucky's A.G. writing this. In Kentucky, one can work out at the gym,
attend a wedding, send his or her child to day care or preschool, college
students can attend classes, but all of the Kentucky's religious schools
are shuttered.

Now, Justice Brett Kavanaugh is asking Kentucky's governor, Democrat Andy
Beshear to respond to the high court by 4 o'clock tomorrow afternoon. So
far, the governor's attorneys insist that his executive order does not
infringe on religious freedoms.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMY CUBBAGE, GENERAL COUNSEL FOR KENTUCKY GOVERNOR: The governor is
determined to take decisive steps to solve our increasing surge of COVID-
19. We now have 117 counties in the red zone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Here now, Kentucky Republican Attorney General Daniel Cameron.
General Cameron, thank you very much for being here.

So, explain to everybody what the legal argument is here, why these
Christian schools are treated differently than other private organizations
across the state.

DANIEL CAMERON, KENTUCKY ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, look, Martha. I think the
question is pretty simple. It's the one that we put forth in front of the
Supreme Court, which is can a governor use his executive powers to infringe
upon the first amendment rights that we all hold so dear, in particular
here, the free exercise of religion?

I know parents all across the commonwealth who, in exercising their right
to free religion here in the commonwealth, are sending their children to
private Christian schools, and the governor has infringed upon that right.
It's the question that we've raised with the United States Supreme Court,
and I'm optimistic about what we'll hear from them in light of the diocese
case that came out of New York last week.

MACCALLUM: So, what does he say about what he signaled out these private
institutions when he allowed other private institutions to continue to be
open? What's his argument for that?

CAMERON: Well, it doesn't -- yes, it doesn't make much sense to me. You
have heard Dr. Fauci this past weekend, and the CDC even put out, put forth
language suggesting that it's important to have our kids in schools, that
it is not the super-spreader that a lot had feared.

Dr. Fauci talked about the importance of the developmental aspects of being
back in school. We wholeheartedly agree with that. Again, I know parents
all across the commonwealth send their children to religiously affiliated
schools, not only so they can learn reading, writing, and arithmetic, but
also so that they can learn about the values of faith that are intertwined
with the curriculum.

MACCALLUM: I mean, we've seen a big resurgence in religious schools that
are private, independent schools, because people -- their public school is
closed, and those who have been able to find the ability to transfer their
kids into those schools has really build a resurgence in a lot of those
schools.

But it's very interesting to me that the Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear
said while we all want to get our kids back to in-person instruction, the
United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit recognize that doing
so now would endanger the health and lives of Kentucky children, educators,
and families, which is absolutely the opposite of what we have seen in two
very significant medical studies from JAMA and also from the Lancet, which
we have also heard now backed up by Dr. Anthony Fauci and many others.

So how would that argument hold water when there is not enough evidence to
support it in a court of law?

CAMERON: Well, it doesn't hold water, Martha. The fact of the matter is
that Daniel Christian, one of the plaintiffs in this case, has spent nearly
$30,000 to make sure that they are doing things consistent with the CDC,
taking the proper precautions to keep their students safe.

Another school here in the commonwealth of Kentucky, Lexington Christian,
has spent nearly $400,000, again, implementing safety procedures to keep
people safe and --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: And they can't be open.

CAMERON: That's exactly right.

MACCALLUM: It's incredible. So, this could be something that comes before
the Supreme Court. Justice Amy Coney Barrett would obviously be part of
that decision. They have ruled in favor of religious institutions in New
York and New Jersey. What do you think would happen if it goes to the
Supreme Court?

CAMERON: Well, look, we filed our application with the Supreme Court this
past Monday. We are very optimistic. You mentioned the diocese case out of
New York. The court has time and time again, stood up for religious
freedom. That's all this case is about, is the ability for parents to send
their kids to religiously affiliated schools.

This is an exercise of the first amendment right that Kentuckians hold so
dear. As the attorney general here in Kentucky, I've got the responsibility
to stand up for the liberties that we all hold so dear.

MACCALLUM: So, before I let you go, I want to ask you about this. Because
obviously, you are involved with the Breonna Taylor case as the attorney
general of Kentucky.

The mayor of Louisville, Kentucky, where that happened, Greg Fischer, now
says this. Our systems are more than broken, they must be dismantled and
replaced. That's why I'm announcing today that I'm signing an executive
order declaring racism a public health crisis in Louisville. What's your
reaction to that?

CAMERON: Well, I know the mayor, and I recognize that he has put forth that
declaration, but I want to get past talk in our respective communities and
make sure that we are finding justice.

We had a pretty significant case. It is important for the attorney general
to make sure that we are marrying the law with the facts. That's what I
think most folks expect out of their prosecutors. That's what we tried to
do in that case. I have complete confidence in our justice system.

Obviously, there are always challenges, and we have to build a more perfect
union, and I look forward to being part of any productive conversation
about some of the challenges we have here in the country.

MACCALLUM: Attorney General Daniel Cameron of Kentucky, thank you, sir.
Good to have you here tonight.

CAMERON: Thank you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: So, throughout the Russia investigation, Adam Schiff was adamant
that the special prosecutor must be protected. Donald Trump, President
Donald Trump, can ever be allowed to fire Robert Mueller. He said. So, what
does Trey Gowdy make of his latest 180-degree turn, suggesting that now
John Durham should not be protected, in fact, it's time to fire him?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: This week, Attorney General Bill Barr announced that he
appointed U.S. Attorney John Durham as special counsel in the investigation
into the Russia probe that Durham was already leading. The move gives
Durham extra protection from being fired by the Biden administration. House
intel committee chairman Adam Schiff quickly jumping to criticize that move
by Barr.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): The appointment is not consistent with the
language of the statute that he's relying on and can be rescinded I think
by the next attorney general. I would presume the next attorney general
will look to see whether there is any merit to the work that John Durham is
doing and make a rational decision about whether that should continue at
any level.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: But that's a very different tune then Schiff was singing back in
2018 when he called for legislation to protect special counsel Robert
Mueller from getting fired.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHIFF: We had to take up this bill in the last week of the session and
make sure Mueller is protected so that we don't have to wonder what happens
in the kind of constitutional crisis that would follow a fast or slow-
moving Saturday night massacre.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: So, joining me now, Trey Gowdy, former House oversight committee
chair and Fox News contributor. Trey, great to see you tonight.

TREY GOWDY, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: What do you make of Adam Schiff's shifting opinion on this?

GOWDY: You know, Martha, he spent his entire career, what's left of it, on
this Russia collusion. Remember he told us, he promised us he had evidence,
more than circumstantial but not direct, remember when he said that?

MACCALLUM: Yes.

GOWDY: I mean, lay aside the fact there is no category of evidence like the
one he described, but that's what he said. He told us there was no FISA
abuse. Remember, he belittled Devin Nunes and Kash Patel and others who
wrote the Nunes memo. He even told us it was likely the president would go
to jail based on colluding with Russia.

So far, the House and Senate intelligence committees have debunked what
Schiff said. Mueller debunked it, and Michael Horowitz, the inspector
general. So of course, the last thing he wants is one more person to remind
us of just how tragically wrong Adam Schiff has been. And I don't think it
is lost on the Democrats, either, Martha.

I mean, you and I have a better chance of being appointed to that vacant
California Senate seat than he does. No one is talking about him for that.
He has not been talked about for CIA director, ODNI. I mean, I think even
the Democrats are tired of the charade of Adam Schiff.

MACCALLUM: It's a good point. You know, when you look at the sort of the
difference in the way he handled it, and what Bill Barr is trying to do to
protect Durham at this point, you know, how do you see all of this playing
out? And everybody has a bottom line, basic question about, where is the
Durham investigation at this point? Which we now learned is pretty much
narrowly defined to crossfire hurricane, and it's an FBI investigation, no
longer CIA or any agency investigation.

GOWDY: I mean, honestly, I can't imagine anyone, any reasonable minded
person that doesn't want to know, look, this thing our country went through
for four years, what were the factual origin? I can't imagine anyone would
not want to know, we give law enforcement incredible powers, wouldn't you
want to know whether or not they are good stewards of that power?

I mean, John Durham is a career prosecutor. He is a straight arrow. So, if
the facts are there, great. Tell us if they're not there. That's great too.
Tell us. But the notion that we have something to fear from a career
prosecutor providing oversight over DOJ, the FBI, and essentially the
surveillance of a political campaign, the only thing Adam is worried about
is that it will be now five people that tell him he is wrong, as opposed to
the four that already exist.

MACCALLUM: Well, I mean, it was supposed to come out last summer, this
report. So, do you think it's going to come out before January 20th, at
this point? They said it was delayed because of COVID and other issues, but
when is it coming out?

GOWDY: Martha, I -- their system runs on a different calendar. So, whatever
the witnesses --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Come on, Trey, tell me when it's coming out.

GOWDY: Whenever they have interviewed the last witness and examine the last
exhibit, they are oblivious to politics. At least good prosecutors are
oblivious to politics.

MACCALLUM: All right. Thank you, sir. Trey Gowdy, good to see you tonight.

GOWDY: Yes, ma'am. You too.

MACCALLUM (voice over): So, when we come back, a treat for everybody.
Kathie Lee Gifford is making a special appearance on television tonight
with us, she's here to share some stories that you haven't heard before
when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: Legendary Notre Dame football coach Lou Holtz humbly accepted
the Presidential Medal of Freedom today, the highest civilian award in the
nation. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOU HOLTZ, FORMER COLLEGE FOOTBALL COACH: I recognize from what other
people did come I never made a block or a tackle, but I did try to teach
people to make good choices, that's all I've ever tried to do. But thank
you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Just try to help people make good choices. One of Lou's dearest
friends would be so proud today. I love this picture. There may never a
bigger fan of Notre Dame than Regis Philbin who was laid to rest at the
university this past summer. Regis talked all the time about Notre Dame and
about Lou Holtz on the show when I used to watch way back, and here's what
he had to say to students in 2012.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REGIS PHILBIN, FORMER TV PRESENTER: Some people, who thought maybe I was
exaggerating, so they would ask, how great really is it? And I told them
from my heart, and I mean it. It's the closest experience you will ever
have to being in heaven.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: I would have to agree with that, actually. So, Regis' longtime
cohost Kathie Lee Gifford joins me now. Award winning TV host and author of
a brand-new book "It's Never Too Late." And she packs it in. She has done
so much in her life. Kathie Lee, it's always good to see you. Thank you so
much for coming on tonight.

KATHIE LEE GIFFORD, AWARD WINNING TV HOST: Thank you so much for having me
on, Martha. I finally made prime time, thank you.

MACCALLUM: Well I watched you on the morning the other day with our Fox &
Friends, and I was like, I want Kathie Lee to come on my show. So, I really
appreciate you coming on.

GIFFORD: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: You know, just about that, first of all, because it was such a
moving moment with Lou Holtz today at the White House --

GIFFORD: Yes.

MACCALLUM: -- and he is such a genuine, real, humble person, and you know,
Regis had these qualities, you have those qualities. Why was Regis such a
big fan of this man?

GIFFORD: He has a very lovable man. I didn't know him well. I only met him
a couple of times, so I certainly not the person to speak about him. But
Regis loved his integrity. I used to tease Regis all the time because I
talked about Notre Dame, Notre Dame all the time. So, I'm so happy for you,
Regis. But isn't it sad that the greatest years of your life for 50 years
go --

MACCALLUM: And he just kept going back to the well.

GIFFORD: It was totally legitimate, his feelings for that place where as
legendary as Regis was.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

GIFFORD: And I loved what Lou said. I've been doing interviews all day
long, so I didn't hear, but you know, that is one thing we are sadly
lacking in our world, don't you think, Martha, it's humility --

MACCALLUM: Yes.

GIFFORD: -- modesty, gratitude --

MACCALLUM: So true.

GIFFORD: -- and attitude of awe that God chose you to mean that much for so
many people. Instead, yes, I did this and then I did that, and tomorrow,
I'm going to do --

MACCALLUM: Yes.

GIFFORD: The arrogance is so offensive to me when people take credit for
something that a lot of people help them do.

MACCALLUM: Yes. It's a great point.

GIFFORD: You know, and it's like, they don't exist, they are suddenly
invisible. And Lou Holtz had that humility. And my husband, Frank, did.
Frank was in eight hall of fame, eight halls of fame. And I never met a
more modest man about all of it, because he was the most grateful person I
ever met, and so was Regis.

They came from very humble beginnings. Frank, even more so than Reg. Frank
used to say to me to me when we first met, he said, you know, people say
that they thought I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth, he goes,
Kathie, we didn't have spoon. You know, he was born in the depression.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

GIFFORD: Raise in the depression. Ate dog food often and was grateful to
have it.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

GIFFORD: And just worked hard, and you know, there are so many people in
this world today, it seems to me, and there are a lot of great, great,
wonderful, hardworking people, but we hear so much about the ones that feel
entitled. They want what you had, but they haven't worked for it.

They want to sit where Martha MacCallum is sitting, but haven't done the
work, they haven't earned it yet. And I know in my 55 or so years in this
business that I, if I hadn't worked for any of it, I wouldn't appreciate
it.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

GIFFORD: I wouldn't be grateful for it. I just be looking for the next
thing I was entitled to. I'm tired of that in our culture. We've got to get
back to hard work and honest work, and gratitude for our blessings, instead
of always moaning and groaning about, you know, what we don't have.

You know, it was Robert Kennedy, I think or John F. Kennedy -- one of the
Kennedy brothers said, you know, ask not what your country can do but for
but what you can do for your country.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

GIFFORD: Where did that go?

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: I think you make such a good point. I don't know, we, you know,
we need to instill that in children, that virtue of humility.

GIFFORD: Yes.

MACCALLUM: That was one of the other things that Lou Holtz said today. He
said there's two important days in your life. One is the day that you were
born, and one is the day you figure out what you were born to do.

And you, Kathie Lee, are somebody who has known what you were born to do.
You know, I watched you on the stage in "Annie" as Ms. Hannigan and all of
the things that you've done, and you know, when I was starting out in New
York and just watching you and Regis every single morning together, and you
have never stopped working and enjoying life, and the new book is called
"It's Never Too Late." What do you want to say to women, to people out
there about, you know --

GIFFORD: Yes.

MACCALLUM: -- reinventing yourself all the time and never stopping working?

GIFFORD: Well, you know, when people use the word reinventing, I know what
they mean, but it's not what I mean at all. I didn't invent myself to
begin, Martha, so I can't reinvent myself.

MACCALLUM: You are what you are.

GIFFORD: I am created in the image of God, just as you are, just as every
human being is, I believe. And so, I am co-creator with my creator God
every day in life, and that means walking with Him every day, not just
visit him on the weekends at church.

I'm not talking about religion at all. In this book, I talk about
partnering with God for your entire life, basically womb to the tomb to
beyond. And it's --I am not a fan of religion. People think I'm just so
religious. I am the least religious person you will ever meet, but I love
the living God with all my heart, and I want to know Him better, and I want
to walk purposely with Him every day, and I don't want to waste a moment of
it.

It was Paul Newman, there was a story that I tell in the book, who told me
if you have a pulse, you got a purpose, and you have to understand the
whole context of THE STORY to understand what I say it, but that stayed
with me.

And then when I held my husband, who had passed on just a few moments
before, and I found him gone, but gone to glory, the look, this was his
look, and I said, my God, he saw Jesus, and Jesus took his breath away. And
I rejoice. I'm holding him. I'm sobbing, but it wasn't tears of anguish, I
was rejoicing with him, and that's what I tried to explain to Regis two
weeks before he died.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

GIFFORD: He came to lunch at my house, he goes, Kath, what do you think,
where do we go, what happens to us? And we had yet another talk like we
have had over the, you know, the 35-year friendship.

MACCALLUM: You're a special, special pair of people and I'm grateful for
your time tonight. The book is called "It's Never Too Late." Thank you very
much, Kathie Lee. Wonderful to be with you.

GIFFORD: Bless you. Happy holidays.

MACCALLUM: Bless you, too. That's THE STORY for tonight. We'll see you back
here tomorrow night. Good night, everybody.


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