Mike Pence on heated Barr hearing, federal response to violence in Portland, mail-in voting, reopening schools

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Mike Pence on heated Barr hearing, federal response to violence in Portland, mail-in voting, reopening schools

Vice President Mike Pence joins Martha MacCallum for an exclusive interview on 'The Story.'

This is a rush transcript from "The Story," July 28, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, ANCHOR: Good evening everyone. I'm Martha MacCallum in New York and this is "The Story." Tonight, an exclusive interview with the Vice President of the United States, Mike Pence. He was in COVID-19 briefings much of the day and will update us on that.

But also tonight, anybody who was watching the questioning of Attorney General Barr today by the House Judiciary Committee could not help but be struck by the fact that, although the committee had pressed very hard to get the A.G. before them for a good grilling, what we saw was a good badgering and a lot of grandstanding with little apparent interest in allowing him to explain any of his answers. And that is so by really any objective assessment. Watch this for yourself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Actually, I need to answer that question.

REP. JOE NEGUSE, D-COLO: Mr. Attorney General, you did answer the question.

BARR: No, you said under penalty of perjury. I'm going to answer the damn question.

NEGUSE: Reclaiming my time.

BARR: Yes, I'm answering your question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well you got to let him answer.

NEGUSE: I'm reclaiming my time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You think as the Chief - reclaiming my time.

REP. JIM JORDAN, R-OHIO: If you want the Attorney General to come, at least let him answer the questions and the accusations made against him.

BARR: Can we take a five-minute break, Mr. Chairman?

REP. JERRY NADLER, D-N.Y.: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: No. Sorry, no five-minute break. Congressman Eric Swalwell was one of those questioners. We're going to talk to him about what happened in there today later in the program. But now we turn to the Vice President who has led the nation's response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Welcome Mr. Vice President. Good to have to you with us this evening.

VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Good to be with you, Martha. Thank you.

MACCALLUM: I just want to first - good to have you sir. I want to get your reaction to what happened in there today. You spent many years on the Hill representing Indiana. What did you think about that committee hearing today with Attorney General Barr?

PENCE: Well, it was clear that the Democrats on the committee wanted to be heard more than they wanted to listen. Bill Barr is leading the Justice Department in this country with great integrity and he brings a lifetime of commitment to the rule of law.

But to see it today in a little bit that I was able to watch, Martha, it was clear that the Democrats wanted to hear themselves talk more than they wanted to hear from the Attorney General of the United States.

MACCALLUM: Yes. I mean I think that's just a fact. I think if we added up the time, I think it would prove to be a fact. Here is one of the thrust of today's hearing, which I wanted to ask you to address and it's the argument that the administration is basically fear mongering what's going on in Portland and beyond in order to leverage law and order election. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NADLER: The President wants footage for his campaign ads. In most of those cities, the protests had begun to wind down, before you marched in and confronted the protestors.

REP. ZOE LOFGREN, D-CALIF.: The playbook is to create the impression that there is violence that he must send in federal troops and that's how he hopes to win the election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: What do you say to that, sir?

PENCE: Well, Martha, look, from July 1 forward, the Department of Homeland Security informed me yesterday that we've had 188 federal officials injured by violent protesters in Portland, night after night tearing down the fencing, vandalizing the property, throwing projectiles, you've all seen it. And I think the fact that Jim Jordan stepped forward today and used his time to put those images before the committee and before the American people was a great service.

The violence in Portland has got to stop. It is clear that the local leadership and the Mayor of Portland are not willing to step up. That's why we are talking to Governor Kate Brown and the State of Oregon about working in a way forward. Made no mistake about it--

MACCALLUM: No.

PENCE: --our federal officials are going to have the protection that they need. We're going to protect that federal courthouse. And President Trump has made it clear, we're going to have law and order in our streets.

With Joe Biden, the radical Democrats, they want to defund the police. What we are going to do is we're going to fund law enforcement, we're going to stand up for law and order, and that begins right in Portland.

MACCALLUM: So the other images that are shown are this wall of moms, wiping tear gas out of their eyes, and we have all seen the image of the navy member who was - they came at him pretty hard and broke his hand. Do you have any regrets about those incidents?

PENCE: Well, I regret any time anybody is hurt. But let's be clear, before federal officials moved in a significant way in early July to the federal courthouse in Portland, the Mayor of Portland had said that he had seen a "month of violence in Portland". I mean there is nothing to the suggestion that having federal law enforcement officials, marshals, DHS personnel on the ground has had a causative effect here.

The reality is that the Mayor of Portland in the local community has simply allowed violent protesters to overrun that community. That community was looking the other way on groups like Antifa a long time ago and now they are paying a price.

But what President Trump has made clear, what we've made clear with federal officials as we are saying this far and no farther, we are not only going to protect the federal courthouse and do what it takes to bring our security there.

But we're going to make sure that work with the State of Oregon and we reestablish peace on the streets of Portland. The people of that community deserve nothing less. And with this President of this administration, we're going to stand strong with law enforcement and for law and order.

MACCALLUM: This head-to-head is clearly going to be a big issue in the election and you see how both sides are characterizing it at this point to their advantage. We'll see what the American people decide they believe in the end and all this.

With regard to the election, even a question raised today, two big issues that were raised today, one is the issue of mail-in ballots and here is what Representative Greg Stanton of Arizona said about that today. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. GREG STANTON, D-ARIZ.: There are fears that you and the President are laying the foundation to interfere with the upcoming election specifically with vote by mail, as my colleagues have previously noted, because both of you have advanced false conspiracy theories about mail-in voting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: There are so many states in the country that already have mail- in voting, they've had it for a long time. Is there any reason not to accelerate or offer that opportunity to people given the COVID-19 pandemic? Is there anything that's wrong with that in your mind?

PENCE: Well Martha look, what we've had in this country for a long time is absentee ballot voting by mail. We've had in the State of Indiana, I've voted in absentee myself since I get this job in Washington D. C.

MACCALLUM: Yes, you are right.

PENCE: And look, that requires a person request the ballot and then the signature is verified and we protect the vote. The integrity of the vote is paramount. I mean through the generations, Americans have worn the uniform, fought and died to protect all of our freedoms and the right to vote is at the heart of this democracy, and absentee balloting is a time honored tradition.

But what you see across this country in Democrat led states is an effort for universal distribution of ballots. Without the accountability that you have with absentee balloting, and when you combine that with states like California that actually allow what is called vote bundling or vote harvesting, you see where the entire ability for widespread fraud is very real.

And what you're hearing from President Trump and you will continue to hear from this administration is a commitment to protect the one person, one vote, integrity of our electoral system, and we are going to stand strong on that.

MACCALLUM: Let me ask you - I mean I get asked this a lot, do you think it's going - because we will be obviously doing our coverage as usual - do you think it going to be a one night election or you think it's going to go on for weeks, could it go - even go on for a month? Given the situation that we are in with this pandemic, what do you think?

PENCE: Well look, I think President Donald Trump is going to be elected for four more years, and I see greater enthusiasm all across this country today.

MACCALLUM: But do you think that will happen on November 3?

PENCE: As I travel across the country, then I saw four years ago and I think it's going to translate to November 3. But make no mistake about it, the reality of voter fraud is undeniable. We have seen case after case around the country where there have been prosecutions. The president spoke about New Jersey. We've seen it in other states.

In my own state of Indiana in 2012, there was a Democrat super PAC that was involved in our elections that literally - there was a group of people that were prosecuted for falsifying ballots. This happens, Martha.

And I got to tell you, when you think about the price we have paid for this democracy through the generations, my father wore the uniform in combat, my son is in the Marine Corps, my son-in-law is in the navy, we have to stand for the principle of one person, one vote. And voter integrity is at the heart of what our democracy is all about.

MACCALLUM: It sounds like that the possibility is open that it could go on longer if indeed that integrity - you believe that integrity is breached or the President does. So we will stay tuned to see where that goes.

I was listening to the former Vice President Joe Biden today and he was speaking about his "Build Back Better" plan. One of the things that he mentioned was that he was trying to seek more equity in terms of racial justice and he said that he would be open to the idea of more farmland for black and brown farm owners. Do you think that it is proper to allocate benefits or resources in this country based on the color of people's skin?

PENCE: I think under this President, you've seen an agenda that's about advancing the opportunity for every American regardless of racial or creed or color. And Martha, I couldn't be more proud that in our first three years, because this is a President who cut taxes, rolled back regulation, fought for free and fair trade, and supported educational opportunities for every American.

We saw the lowest unemployment rate ever recorded for African-Americans, we saw historic investments in black colleges and universities around America. And with Senator Tim Scott, we saw the creation of more than 8,000 opportunity zones in cities that are tracking investments. If Joe Biden and the Democrats want to do something for minority communities, how about - let minority families choose where their children go to school? I mean how about.

MACCALLUM: Well, I wanted to ask you about that. But I am going to take that as a no that you are not in favor of the allocation of land based on skin color. You didn't directly answer the questions, but is that accurate, are you not in favor of any program like that?

PENCE: Well, honestly I didn't hear what Joe Biden said today and I don't even understand the concept. What we do in this country is we create opportunities for everyone. Joe Biden is denying the ability for African- American families and minority families to choose where their children go to school. He actually wants to defund the school choice program right here in Washington D.C.

MACCALLUM: No, we asked his representative about that last night and I think that's going to be a big issue.

PENCE: When you talk about building back the economy better, remember this is a President who passed historic tax cuts, rolled back regulation. Joe Biden, Bernie Sanders, their unity agenda of the radical left, they actually want to raise taxes by $4 trillion. They have a $2 trillion Green New Deal program that looks like cylinder (ph) on steroids.

I mean look, we're not going to build America back better with more government, higher taxes, more regulation, more liberal policies. We're going to build America back better, stronger and more prosperous by doing again what President Trump and I did in our first three years, and that is less government, less taxes, free and fair trade, educational opportunities for all. That's the way that we can grow this economy and full recovery and then some from this pandemic.

MACCALLUM: I only have a few more minutes and I would be remiss if I don't ask you some questions about your COVID-19 meetings today. But I do want to be, since you went there, I would like to ask you about school choice because I was very interested in this particular soundbite from the President on this issue of going back to school. Let's play that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: If schools do not reopen, the funding should go to parents to send their child to public private charter religious or home school of their choice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Now that - I think that caught a lot of people's attention, Vice President. And today, you have the American Federation of Teachers saying that they will back teachers who want to go on strike in this country, as you are under efforts to try to reopen the schools and get kids back in the classroom this fall.

So what does that look like? If I'm a parent in America and my school says they are closed, and President Trump says that I can somehow use that money for school choice, that's not on the books right now. What if I really want to make that happen? How can I do that?

PENCE: Well, it's one of the reasons why we are demanding that a significant portion of any additional relief funding for education in our states actually go to support school choice programs around the country.

But look, Martha, I'm married to a school teacher. She is getting ready to be back in the classroom this fall. We've got to get our kids back to school. Now there's going to be some states and we follow the data on the White House Coronavirus Task Force county by county, city by city. There are going to be some areas that will want to move in a more measured way. We will expect Governors and states as they make those decisions.

But look, CDC put out guidance last week that recommended that we get our kids for their academic wellbeing and their health and wellbeing back into the classroom. We know the risk of the coronavirus to healthy children is very low. We know that there are real costs disrupting education for special needs kids, disrupting nutrition. I mean the reality is our kids are going to be better off in school and by working with the states, implementing CDC guidance, we can have.

MACCALLUM: But can they - sir, pardon me for interrupting, but can they as the President said, can parents send their children to a public, private, charter, religious or home school or other choice under the current law? Do they have that option?

PENCE: Martha, the President said they ought to be able to do that. There's been no greater champion of school choice in the history of this country than President Donald Trump. We're going to continue to stand for and advocate that principle.

But right now it's absolutely essential and we are working with every Governor to get our kids back in school. It's best for our kids academically and personally, it's best for working families. And as we open up America, we got to open up America school. And make no mistake about it Martha, as CDC said again last week, as American pediatricians said a couple of weeks ago, we can safely reopen our schools.

MACCALLUM: Yes, there's a lot of pushback.

PENCE: And at the President's direction, we're going to work our hearts out to get our kids back in the classroom.

MACCALLUM: Lot of union organizations, a lot of teachers, a lot of pushback on that. And I know that there's a lot of charter schools and religious schools that would love to have the opportunity to offer those spots to those kids. So that's something we are going to watch personally.

Okay, vaccines, some of the sort of reality check on vaccines is that, once they are out there, it's not going to be an instant, everything is better now, everybody gets a vaccine. There is some doctors saying they may work for some people, they might not be a complete umbrella for others. What you can tell us right now about how different it will be at the end of this year or the beginning of next year?

PENCE: Well look, just yesterday I was in Florida, the President was in North Carolina. We literally saw in record time the start of Phase Three clinical trials for the first coronavirus vaccine.

MACCALLUM: Yes, that's remarkable.

PENCE: Now Martha, you understand this. But people need to understand, a vaccine usually takes years to develop, but what President Trump did early on was say, we need to clear away any red tape barriers.

He called on our pharmaceutical industry to step up and to accelerate the process without cutting any corners on safety, and now we've got a half a dozen different vaccine platforms that are in development. And I got to tell you, when you got Dr. Fauci saying that it's not if, it's when we have a vaccine, it gives you the signal that we really have great confidence that by this fall, we're going to have a vaccine.

And the really exciting thing is under operation warp speed, we are literally producing those vaccines right now. We are purchasing millions of syringes right now, so that the moment that the FDA says that a vaccine is safe and effective, we will have the supplies on hand and literally offer vaccines to tens of millions of Americans and we'll start that process the day that it gets approved.

MACCALLUM: Begin mass production. Yes, that is not the way it usually happens. All right, before I let you go, testing, I had a close friend who needed to get a test this week, was told 7-10 days until they would get the results back.

I mean by that time anybody that you - if you got it, anybody you came in contact with, I don't know how you are going to contact trace that person - if the wait is too long, everybody says this everywhere you go, when are we going to see a situation where you can either do a home test or you can get a test result back in 24-48 hours at the latest?

PENCE: Well, first off, I think the American people should take great pride in the fact that four months ago, we were at a standing start. We had done about 8,000 coronavirus tests. As of today, we have done 55 million coronavirus tests because of the public private partnership that President Trump initiated early on.

We are actually doing 800,000 coronavirus tests a day on average. That being said particularly in some hotspot areas, we're dealing with some delays. The average amount of time we are told from the commercial labs which do half of the testing is about four and a half days. It's one of the reasons why the FDA this last weekend approved what's called pooling, Martha. This will allow these commercial labs not just to test one swab at a time, but to test five and ten samples at a time.

MACCALLUM: And that hopefully will speed it up?

PENCE: And it will speed it up. But also remember, the other half of testing is done very quickly because the half of testing in this country is already being done with point-of-care tests that turn it around in 15 minutes or at hospitals and in-hospital labs. When people are in hospitals, we want to get that test done immediately. We are working with research hospitals around the country to make sure we do it.

MACCALLUM: I mean that's great if you can get it, I went all through, I Googled every single place in the entire state of New Jersey and you can't get a rapid test.

PENCE: We are making great progress and - one last thing on that Martha, if I may.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

PENCE: We are also distributing 15,400 Abbott point-of-care 15 minute test to every single nursing home in America.

MACCALLUM: Well, that's important. That's very important. We talked about that a lot here.

PENCE: 600 last week and 600 this week, and in the next four weeks or so, every nursing home in America will have a 15 minute test to be able to test residents and faculty. And we hope very soon when it's approved visitors visiting loved ones.

MACCALLUM: All right. I got to jump out there or I'm going to get cut off. Vice President Mike Pence, thank you very much sir, great to have you with us.

PENCE: Good to be with you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: So coming up next, we will talk to Congressman Eric Swalwell. He was one of the Democrats who was there questioning Bill Barr today. Then Guy Benson will follow-up after that when we get back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: It was a raucous hearing in there today as members of the Judiciary Committee grilled the Attorney General on everything from the riots in Portland to healthcare and everything in between. Here's some of the exchange today between Congressman Swalwell and Attorney General William Barr.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ERIC SWALWELL, D-CALIF: So, how can you sit here and tell us why should I investigate the President of the United States, if you are not even aware of the facts concerning the President using the pardon or commutation power to swap the silence of a witness?

BARR: Because we require a reliable predicate before we open a criminal investigation.

SWALWELL: And I just gave to you sir.

BARR: I don't consider it. I consider it a very Rube Goldberg theory that you have.

SWALWELL: Well, it sounds like you're hearing this first time today.

BARR: And by the way, if I apply history, there will be a lot more people under investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Congressman Eric Swalwell, welcome, good to have you here tonight.

SWALWELL: Thanks Martha.

MACCALLUM: So, we played a lot of clips from what we watched, I watched a lot of it straight through today and I was just struck by the question of how that's a fair process when someone is brought into that room and then for the most part - I mean actually you allowed him to answer questions I think more than most of your colleagues, who wouldn't even let him breathe and answer, how is that a fair process?

SWALWELL: Well, the Attorney General doesn't need an ice-cream cone before he sits down to answer questions, Martha.

MACCALLUM: No, but he needs to be allowed to answer the question.

SWALWELL: He's a big boy, he answered the questions. I wanted to point out that you can only have a corrupt President if you have an Attorney General who would enable it, and he acknowledged that only once in his memory did he intervene to help somebody get a reduced sentence and that was the President's friend. And I thought that exchange was productive, he got to say what he wanted to say, and I got to make the point I wanted to make.

MACCALLUM: Well, and his point was that he didn't believe that there was anything wrong with the process that he carried out. You made your point as you say and he made his. But I mean, the idea that to suggest that he is a big boy and doesn't need an ice cream cone, people wouldn't let him answer a single question. They kept saying, give me back my time, give me back my time.

So here is my question, your committee has wanted him to come in here for a long time, right. I think myself and a lot of other Americans wanted to see the exchange, because you have - oh many of you have accused him of sort of being a side lamp to the President acting on his behalf.

This was a golden opportunity for the country to hear what his answer was and they didn't get to hear what his answer was, and I'm wondering if there was a fear that if he was given that opportunity, then he might be persuasive to some people.

SWALWELL: Well, I was concerned by what we did here. He said that he's talking to the President about his reelection campaign. I don't want an independent prosecutor doing that.

MACCALLUM: He said, of course it comes up, I'm in the cabinet, I'm not going to sit here and lie to you and tell you that it's never come up in a cabinet meeting. He was being extra careful.

SWALWELL: He also implied that there may be some foreign interference, that's okay, which again we don't want the top national security lawyer to say that.

MACCALLUM: Let me just play an example of this, Eric.

SWALWELL: And Martha, he co-signed on the President's theory that has been debunked by everyone that mail-in balloting is fraudulent. But go ahead, play your clip.

MACCALLUM: All right. Let's watch some of what happened, go ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL, D-WA.: When protesters with guns and swap.

BARR: I am aware of protesters in the federal government.

JAYAPAL: Excuse me, Mr. Barr, this is my time and I control it.

BARR: I have already explained that it had been planned all day.

JAYAPAL: Attorney General, the time is mine. We've waited a long time for you to come here, the time is mine.

BARR: You waited to talk to me like this? You didn't need to wait for so long.

It is not a self defining terms as they - that they recognize.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've only got two minutes sir. Mr. Barr, if I may?

BARR: Yes, but this is a hearing. I thought I was the one that was supposed to be heard.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Good question. I mean you could have just propped up a picture of him and yelled at it.

SWALWELL: I don't think he's as weak as you were describing him.

MACCALLUM: I am not suggesting he's weak at all, I'm suggesting that you were sitting - you brought him in there to answer questions and then you didn't give him a chance to answer them. I know it doesn't matter what side of the fence you are on, anybody can watch that process and say it was not a hearing - that was not a hearing.

SWALWELL: I thought it was also an important point that it seems like they are selectively using the police, and I think Joe Biden said it best today. We should prosecute anarchists and people who are burning buildings.

However, when you are only sending the troops in to protect the courthouses while armed protesters are going to Michigan, they are going to Wisconsin, and they are in militia gear, they are carrying their assault weapons and they are threatening to kill the governors there, why aren't you sending in the troops there? Instead, he is suing the governors for having stayaway orders that for people to be safe during COVID. So I think that was a productive exchange as well.

MACCALLUM: Okay. Here he is answering that question about burning down a federal courthouse. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARR: Federal courts are under attack. Since when is it okay to try to burn down a federal court? The U.S. Marshals have a duty to stop that and defend the courthouse, and that's what we are doing in Portland. We are at the courthouse defending the courthouse. We are not out looking for trouble.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Do you believe that when people are bending down the fence in front of the courthouse and breaking it and trying to get through to attack the courthouse itself that that's a problem and that Federal Marshals need to protect it?

SWALWELL: Yes. I believe you can arrest people who are trying to burn down the courthouse and not dust a mom, use violence against an unarmed veteran or shoot projectiles against an unarmed individual who are still in the hospital today. I think you can do both and I think they are just making the situation worse.

MACCALLUM: Well, there are some investigations with regard to the specific situation that you talked about. I just asked the vice president about that as well. Because I think that everybody, you know, wants situations to be fair on the ground and we don't want peaceful protesters to be hurt in any way.

Eric Swalwell, thank you. Good to see you today.

SWALWELL: My pleasure. Thanks.

MACCALLUM: Guy Benson is here, hot of the Guy Benson show, a Fox News contributor and author of "End of Discussion." Talk about "End of Discussion," Guy, I mean, there was no discussion in there. I think that no matter what side of the fence you are on, anybody who watch that had to be a little frustrated.

GUY BENSON, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Martha, you said that you watch it for hours on end.

MACCALLUM: I did.

BENSON: I made it about 90 minutes. I think we are both masochists watching that spectacle just down the street from me here in Washington.

I mean, you're right, they should have perhaps maybe bought a cardboard cutout of Bill Barr, they could have sat him in that chair and they have screamed at him for increments of five minutes and maybe, I don't know, thrown some rotten fruit or something and pounded the dust because but most of the Democrats on that dais clearly had absolutely no interest whatsoever in gleaning any information from the attorney general.

They wanted to vent at him and they did, and it was frankly embarrassing and sort of painful to watch.

MACCALLUM: Well, Bill Barr is a very smart man. And whether you like him or you don't like him, or whether you think he is, you know, too cozy with the president, whatever you think.

He, if they had given him a chance, the likelihood that he was going to give them answers that might cause some people to pause, and think maybe, you know, and kind of understand his line of thinking was pretty good.

BENSON: Yes.

MACCALLUM: So, you know, do you think that that was part of the issue that they didn't want to give him that oxygen, or, you know, why --

BENSON: Bingo.

MACCALLUM: -- why would they -- what else would be the motivation for the way this --

(CROSSTALK)

BENSON: No, I think -- I think you nailed it. So, if people want to see something worthwhile from the hearing I encourage them to go watch the opening statement from the attorney general which was interrupted, the only uninterrupted really portion of the entire event for the attorney general.

Smart, thoughtful, measured nuance. And I think that you're right, Martha. I think for a lot of these Democrats, they had a bunch of talking points and attacks they wanted to get out, they had limited time and Barr, let's be frank, I think is a much smarter man than many of the people up there and maybe on both sides of the aisle. He's a very bright individual. He also has command of the facts.

So, they wanted to throw out and hurl allegations his way where he has answers. They, I think deep down know he has some good responses that might, God forbid, be persuasive and compelling to viewers at home so they wouldn't let him a word in edgewise. And the result, again, I think was humiliating for them and not edifying to the home viewers certainly unless you're a hard-core resistance person, in which case you probably love that theater.

MACCALLUM: Might have loved it. And if that's the case then you also love it when he asked can we please have a five-minute break and was told by Chairman Nadler no.

BENSON: No. He said no to a bathroom break.

MACCALLUM: No. No. You cannot have a five-minute break. And they said, all right, you can have a five-minute break. He's like the mean teacher.

Thank you very much, Guy. Good to see as always.

BENSON: Martha, am I allowed to go? Can I take a break because I'm --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Yes, you may take a break BENSON: All right.

MACCALLUM: You may take a break. Everyone can take a break. We're going to have a commercial in a moment.

The mayor of Portland, Oregon, demanding that the president pull his federal troops out of the city, as he puts it. But local business owners may feel a little bit differently. We're going to talk to one of them coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: The scenes out of Portland are difficult to watch especially for the people whose livelihoods are on the line in that area. The business owners they've watch so much of what they have worked for in some cases smashed to pieces, their windows are broken, their buildings burned to the ground in some cases. The mayor of Portland blames the president for escalating the violence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR TED WHEELER, D-PORTLAND: If we are not able to get the federal administration to back off and leave our city it will happen all across the United States jeopardizing the United States Constitution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: All right. Ted Wheeler says it's all Washington's fault what is happening in Portland right now.

Joining me now, James Louie, owner of Huber's Cafe in downtown Portland, a restaurant that has been in business since 1879. Mr. Louie, thank you very much for being here. What is your take on what's going on in Portland and what's happening to the businesses like yours?

JAMES LOUIE, OWNER, HUBER'S CAFE: Well, between the COVID-19 pandemic and the black lives demonstrations, it's really damaging to business in general. Our business and businesses in downtown Portland, people don't want to come downtown.

I mean, the Oregon health authority, they say stay home and save lives. And then of course people don't want to come downtown because of the protests, even though the violent protests are happening at the justice center and that's five blocks away from us.

But people are concerned about getting caught up in the protest march or people are concerned about having their vehicle vandalized and so people don't want to come downtown. It's a, like you say, it's a lot of restaurants. A lot of businesses have closed because of those reasons.

MACCALLUM: It's really sad what we've seen in Portland and so many places across the country. What -- do you agree with the Mayor, Ted Wheeler, who says, you know, that this is really the fault of these federal agents that came to the area to protect that federal court building?

LOUIE: Well, it does seem like it has created a reaction. When you think about the population of Portland, Oregon, 600,000, and you have maybe 1,000, maybe 2,000 people demonstrating down at the courthouse. It's the most, a small segment of the population. And mainstream Americans who live here in Portland, Oregon, we'd like to see the vandalism, the violence to stop and we'd like things to go back to normal.

MACCALLUM: I don't blame you. I don't blame you, Mr. Louie and your business one that I know you take great pride in, it's been in the city for a very long time. And whatever it takes we all want to see the situation righted and we want to see people be able to go out, back out to dinner and back out to work and we wish you all the best.

James Louie, thank you very much for sharing your perspective with us tonight. We appreciate it, sir.

LOUIE; Well, it was my pleasure. Thank you for having me on.

MACCALLUM: Thank you very much.

Coming up next, we're going to talk to General Jack Keane on the Trump administration's dramatic shift towards China, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: Tonight, where are the United States and China headed? you've got tensions escalating between the White House and leadership in Beijing drawing comparisons to the world dynamic before World War II.

In a new op-ed Ian Haworth at the Daily Wire suggests China is our generation's Nazi, Germany. And Asia analyst, Gordon Chang is now comparing China under Xi Jinping to Japan under Emperor Hirohito in the 1930s.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GORDON CHANG, AUTHOR, THE COMING COLLAPSE OF CHINA: Two thousand eighteen, for instance, they lasered a U.S. C-130 in Djibouti. When you try to blind the pilots of an American plane, you're trying to bring it down and kill the crew.

There have been the sonic attacks against U.S. diplomats of the Guangzhou consulate at about the same time causing brain injuries. We've seen all sorts of incidents around China's periphery. You know, it's very new in a sense, but it's also very old. This is 1930s Japan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Fascinating. Here now, General Jack Keane, chairman of the Institute for the Study of War and a Fox News senior strategic analyst. General, always good to see you. Thank you for being here tonight.

I know that you say that we are seeing a true strategic shift in our relationship in China and the perspective of this administration. And do you see the threat that China poses as similar to those powers before World War II?

JACK KEANE, FOX NEWS SENIOR STRATEGIC ANALYST: Yes. Similar in terms of what they are trying to achieve. I mean, President Xi has told us in a way that no previous Chinese administration have said, that he wants to achieve the so-called China dream, which is domination and control of the Asia- pacific region and replace United States as a global power in the world. He believes the United States is a declining power and they are rising power.

And what he doesn't say but he clearly is trying to achieve and that is replacing international order that has sustained a general sense of world stability since post-World War II in a sense that we haven't had another epic war among major powers.

He wants that to go away and achieve that kind of influence that he has. And I believe, the other thing, Martha, I think he's buoyed by a number of things, a very strong economy that his predecessor did not have. And he has a growing dominating military by comparison to the United States and it gives him enormous confidence.

And I believe he's put his ambitions on a fast track. I think he's got the hard liners in his country behind him, the moderates and others I think have serious reservations about what he is doing.

And yes, we are in a major strategic shift. What really the catalyst for it was growing a local regionalized epidemic in his own country in a particular province that he -- where he protected the rest of his country particularly his power centers in Beijing and Shanghai but let it spread through international flights to the world writ large.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

KEANE: That and crushing the autonomy of Hong Kong has had -- the world has looked at this and that is causing the strategic shift much sooner than we thought. And the United States, I give this administration some credit for stepping up and exercising a leadership role and trying to bring together a broad coalition and fashion a strategy to deal with the reality of the Chinese Communist Party and its very serious ambitions.

MACCALLUM: Here's Steve Bannon on that coalition idea. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE ADVISOR: Developed into an alliance of liberty bringing in the United Kingdom, India, and Japan. Used Hong Kong as the Annville and the U.S. dollar as the hammer, it's time now to take the fight directly financially to the Chinese Communist Party.

General Secretary Xi is defiling in the gun sites. I think he should be sanctioned personally. His henchmen around hm should be sanctioned personally. We should start to seize all their assets in the United States and London.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: In its discussion about this alignment of the United Kingdom, Australia which Secretary Pompeo talked about, Japan, India. And then on the other side, of course, you have China, Iran, Russia with aligned interest there as well which I think, you know, does remind a lot of people at the kind of alignments that we saw in World War II.

KEANE: Yes, certainly. I mean, these are very strong democracies that are being threatened because if Xi is able to achieve what he's talking about, that challenges the sovereignty of all of our democratic states and that is what is unifying us as it did during World War II and as it did post-World War II dealing with the existential threat of the Soviet Union.

Now we don't have hundreds of thousands of troops facing each other in Europe like we did post-World War II. We don't have thousands of missiles facing each other as we did then with large air forces also in place ready to go.

But make no mistake here. The ambitions that President Xi has are every bit as serious as what the Soviet Union had and the Nazis and imperialistic Japan.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

KEANE: And why we deal with this, we don't have to lose control, we don't have to lose our sense of rationality here, we don't have to over react, but we do have to act. And we have to act sensibly with good sound judgment and do it in concert with our allies.

The world has been here before dealing with thugs like this and we can deal with them. And putting together a plan to do it in terms of a strategy and also a coalition I think is the right answer and it should transcend administrations because this is going to take some time.

MACCALLUM: Well, that's going to be a big question in terms of this election and how a continuing President Trump or a new president in the form of Vice President Biden would face this threat, which I think the history books will trace back to the COVID pandemic and how it altered the dynamic in many ways in the world because they put the trade deal on the back burner and change things overall in terms of the strategy.

General Jack Keane, thank you, sir. Always good to see you.

KEANE: Good talking to you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Have a good night. You too.

All right, everybody. It is July and a great white shark attack has now just happened for the first time ever in Maine as a fatal attack. It killed a swimmer off the coast, as we start to see more sharks in these areas up the New England coast.

A senior shark scientist, one of the world-renowned people on this issue is with me after the break. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: Be vigilant, that is the warning from authorities in Maine tonight who say that a 63-year-old woman was attacked and killed by a great white shark while swimming just off the shore, 30 to 40 feet from the beach off of Bailey Island in Casco Bay.

The cause of death was confirmed by a tooth fragment that was left behind by the shark and while this is Maine's first ever deadly shark attack, officials say that they have seen an increase in shark sightings off the New England coast over recent years.

New York City resident Julie Holowach was attacked on Monday afternoon, just yesterday, while she was swimming about 20 yards off of the shore.

Joining me now, Dr. Gregory Skomal, shark scientist who had shark research and serves as senior fisheries biologist for the Massachusetts division of marine fisheries.

Dr. Skomal, thank you for being here. We've spoken before about this and as we said, this is the first time that we have seen something like this in Maine. And I'm going to show the maps in just a moment. But what's your reaction to this horrible attack?

GREGORY SKOMAL, SHARK SCIENTIST: well, anytime a person that has bitten by a shark and in this case, it's fatal, you know, it's a tragedy. It's horrendous and it's devastating. You know, I don't -- I've been studying sharks for many, many years and I don't like to see these kinds of events happened whatsoever.

MACCALLUM: So, I'm going to put up the Sharktivity app that shows a lot of concentration near where I spend a lot of time in Chatham, Massachusetts. It's hard to see at home I know, but the collection of blue dots that you see at the bottom of your screen, that's Cape Cod and we see lots of great white sharks in that area, we've seen them for many years there.

But, Greg, at the very top of this map of New England all the way up there is that shark up in Casco. So why do you -- why do you think we're seeing this migration of them up the coast now.

SKOMAL: I think it's important for people to realize, Martha, that the Gulf of Maine, the coast of Maine all the way to Canada, these are areas that white sharks have been going to for hundreds if not thousands of years, so this is not a new phenomenon.

What is happening though is we're seeing the restoration of shark populations, namely the great white shark, in addition to the restoration of seal populations. And what basic equation is simple. White sharks consume seals. So, the more seals that are occurring along the coastline including the coast of Maine, the more likely we'll see white sharks in those areas attempting to feed on those seals.

MACCALLUM: So, we saw one fatal attack I believe it was two years ago now, Labor Day on the Cape. And now, this woman, sadly, in Maine. Is there -- is it that people are swimming too close to these seals, I mean, why are we starting to see this? And they are so close to shore.

SKOMAL: Well, I think it's really important though to put it in the context of risk. I mean, if you look at the statistics the probability of being bitten by a shark still remains remarkably low. But nonetheless, any kind of incident of this nature is absolutely horrible.

What's happening is as these sharks come back to these areas where they traditionally have fed on seals, we have overlap with human activities and a lot of human activities, particularly days like today. I mean, these are really, you know, hot days and people are getting on and in the water, and they're going into this area where white sharks. This predator-prey relationship is happening.

MACCALLUM: Yes. Dr. Greg Skomal, one of the foremost experts on great white sharks, we appreciate you being here and our thoughts go out to Julie's family. It's a terrible tragedy on a beautiful summer day with her family swimming in the water in Maine.

Thanks for being here tonight, everybody. That's "The Story." We'll be back with more tomorrow night as "The Story" goes on. We'll see you here. Tucker Carlson is coming up next from Washington, D.C. Have a great night. It's a good one. Good night, everybody.

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