This is a rush transcript from "MediaBuzz" May 29, 2022. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
HOWARD KURTZ, FOX NEWS HOST: How can this be happening again and again and again? Last Sunday, I stood here and talked about the heartbreak of 10 mostly black shoppers being gunned down in Buffalo, now it's 19 young children and two teachers at a Texas elementary school almost a decade after of the massacre at Sandy Hook.
The Washington Post says there were 42 school shootings of some kind last year, and you probably haven't heard of most of them. The entire list starts to get blurry. Virginia tech, Charleston, Orlando, Las Vegas, Parkland, El Paso, Pittsburgh, Brooklyn. I ask the question so many of you are asking, why are we not protecting our kids? Why is nothing changing?
As a journalist, I've had to cover too many of these mass shootings. Perhaps we're all becoming desensitized. As an American, as a parent, you stop and think, you send your kids to school on an average day and never see him or her again. It's unthinkable, unspeakable, yet that's what happened in Uvalde, Texas.
I know this gets into background checks and red flag laws and other measures that advocates call common sense gun reform and opponents call a breach of the Second Amendment. There are also questions about how the Texas police misled journalists about school security, about mental health, about social media radicalization and whether there's a way to stop sick, twisted men who just turned 18 -- as in Texas and Buffalo -- from legally buying guns.
But the bottom line is that Washington is paralyzed. It's highly unlikely that anything will change, and the media will soon move on from this Texas tragedy until the next mass shooting seizes the headlines. And that, my friends, is sad and unacceptable.
I'm Howard Kurtz, and this is MEDIA BUZZ.
Ahead, an in-depth conversation with Kellyanne Conway, why she still supports Donald Trump and the one issue where she doesn't.
President Biden, who's visiting Uvalde today seemed weary and emotional when he addressed the nation hours after the Texas massacre, and the pundits were already ratcheting up their rhetoric.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: As a nation we have to ask when in God's name are we going to stand up to the gun lobby? When in God's name we do what we all know in our gut needs to be done. I am sick and tired of it. We have to act. And don't tell me we can't have an impact on this carnage.
LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST: He spoke tonight because politics is selfish. Because in today's twisted world it's considered perfectly appropriate to exploit the massacre of innocent little kids in order to try to turn around your own sagging poll numbers.
WILL CAIN, FOX NEWS HOST: There is something plaguing this country, and we'll spend time figuring that out. But the president did spend time there at the beginning talking about this on a human level.
LAWRENCE O'DONNELL, HOST, MSNBC: The Republican Party will do everything that the Republican Party can possibly do to continue to make America's mass murderers the very best equipped mass murderers in the world.
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST, MSNBC: We hear from Republicans that, well, our thoughts and prayers are with them. We're going to the hear from Republicans, this is the cost of freedom. It's never time to talk about this, is it? They never say they're cowards. They're such cowards.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Joining us now to analyze the coverage, Guy Benson, host of Fox's Guy Benson radio show and podcast, and in Palm Spring, Laura Fink, a commentator and Democratic strategist.
Guy, it feels like we're stuck in this endlessly painful cycle. A mass shooting, the media go wall to wall, the politicians expressed outrage, nothing gets done, the story soon fades, and then another mass shooting.
GUY BENSON, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, you basically just summarized it. I think a lot of people believe that it is intolerable. The question is why do we allow ourselves to maintain the exact same roles, the same scripts in this cycle.
KURTZ: Same scripts.
BENSON: You can almost write out predictably what everyone will say, and it's like they've got their positions memorized, they go to battle stations, and it starts within minutes. And I just hope maybe at some point there's an opportunity for people to change the script just a little bit and say maybe we shouldn't do the exact same things over and over again in terms of the way that we interact with each other, the things that we bring up, the talking points that we make and say, OK, maybe let's sideline some of that and look at some solutions that may not satisfy everyone and may be incomplete because they're all a incomplete, --
KURTZ: Sure.
BENSON: -- but just have a different sounding conversation. And right now it feels like we are incapable of that.
KURTZ: It does feel that way. I'm glad that most of the media are not naming the dead Texas shooter after the initial reports. That's been my policy for a long time.
Laura, what message does it send when the media, most of the media, I should say, says this is awful, it's horrible, it's unthinkable but acknowledge that not much is going to change which is the cycle that played out after the killing of so many kids in Newtown, Connecticut?
LAURA FINK, DEMOCRAT STRATEGIST: It's absolutely heartbreaking, Howie, and I think what we see here is just the media and everyone else throwing up their hands. Because after the tragedy, after the emotions, after the coverage of potential solutions and after the coverage of gridlock, you get to resignation.
And we're seeing that on warp speed especially as we see these tragedies occurring on a weekly basis. I think you're also seeing a lot of coverage of the data, the data that demonstrates where Americans' positions are on some of these things that President Biden was talking about with respect to gun safety.
I mean, this is one of those problems that is especially alarming because vast majorities of Americans across the political spectrum agree on some basic things that can be done. But there is a real bedrock on the political system and Republican primaries that prevents some of that action from happening.
KURTZ: Well, --
FINK: So, we see not just a tragedy here, but a real cavernous flaw in our own system.
KURTZ: Yes. We'll get to more of that, but if you look at what's been emerging in the last few days, Guy, Texas police originally told journalists that two armed officers tried to stop the shooter, that wasn't true. He went in an unlocked door. They waited more than an hour, that was initially disputed as students were calling 911. It is so heart-rending.
Parents outside growing agitated. They hand -- the police handcuffed one mom who later went in and rescued her kids. The officials now say was the wrong decision not to breach the classroom door. And Governor Greg Abbott says he is livid that he was misled. Should the media call these initial, initial accounts what they were, lies, fake news?
BENSON: I think so. And, it's interesting, we can have a big policy debate about guns, gun, gun controls, school safety measures. All the things we typically discussed.
One thing that has been interesting at least about this particular incident is some of the combatants have stopped attacking each other because the country seems united in outrage over what actually happened in terms of the official response, the police response and then the account of that response.
We had Bill Melugin on my radio show this week, he was on the ground in Uvalde for us here at Fox, and we were just marveling at the fact that for two days they told us not just that there was a school resource officer who was armed and they exchange fire, but very specific details.
KURTZ: Right.
BENSON: He was wounded, he caused the shooter to drop an ammo bag. They told us very specific things about something that on day three they came back and said, actually, never mind. That didn't happen at all.
How does that occur? How is that possible? And it seems like every press conference only makes it worse and confirms the worst about the response and the official accounts.
KURTZ: Yes. This is not fog of war stuff the, this is the total untruths - - as you say, relayed with this certain specificity of detail and it turns out it's completely made up. It feels like a cover up. It feels like the police were trying to put a good gloss on an awful response. Everyone now agrees that, the governor is angry.
Laura, also, you know, by coincidence the NRA held its convention over the last few days in Texas. Donald Trump was one of the speakers. There's a lot of, obviously, public interest in what he would say about this. The president once early in his first term said he was going to take on the NRA. Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We witnessed a now-familiar parade of cynical politicians seeking to exploit the tears of sobbing families to increase their own power and take away our constitutional rights. When Joe Biden blamed the gun lobby, he was talking about Americans like you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Laura, the former president called for hardening school doors, for letting trained teachers carry concealed weapons. The coverage -- and this was not carried live by any of the three major cable news networks -- suggests that the he was sort of playing to that crowd and staying away from any proposals whatsoever actually involving guns.
FINK: And, certainly, we see Donald Trump sort of articulating very clearly the position of a lot of Republicans across the board. And I think that's the real challenge here, is that this is actually in contrast of public opinion and even public opinion among Republicans.
And so, it really is a reflection of our politics today and our inability to really act on even things that the large swaths of the population agree upon. Even when the stakes are as high as 19 beautiful children being gunned down. And that is, you know, and Donald Trump leading that charge and making that change is not surprising.
KURTZ: Guy, by the way, nobody was allowed to bring a gun into that NRA convention. And obviously, some people are drawing a contrast there. Look, --
BENSON: It's the Secret Service requirement.
KURTZ: Yes. I understand. Former President Trump said the left wants total gun confiscation, and even modest changes to background checks will lead to more and more assurance and measures. That's a slippery slope argument. That is certainly not the mainstream media's position. I mean, the press, I think is pretty much, the vast majority of press on one side here of this gun debate.
BENSON: Yes. And we saw in recent weeks on abortion these are two of the issues where the media really has a singular mindset, almost without exception. And so --
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: What about when journalists then say, well look at this poll, look at that poll, 90 percent support for background checks, 60 or 70 some support for curtailing or eliminating assault rifles?
BENSON: Well, I mean, they ignore polls that are 80 plus percent in favor of abortion limitations because they don't favor those. So, it seems like that sometimes only that card gets played in certain circumstances, not others.
I would also just point out in background checks, I happen to favor a few more background check provisions, but I'm not really sure that it would have prevented any of the mass shootings that you listed off at the top of the show. I mean, the loopholes that exist haven't actually been exploited in these mass shootings, so maybe that's something we can do to make ourselves feel better. I'm not sure it's explicitly responsive to the problem that we're seeing.
And when there have been background check provisions put to voters not in a poll, but actually on ballots in various states, the numbers are actually much closer than 80/20 because when you have a robust debate over something in a state, you know, in an electorate that's paying close attention, it's not theoretical, there's an actual bill and you see often a very divided country, which is what we are.
KURTZ: Yes. There's no piece of legislation you could pass that would stop every one of these mass attacks. The roots are much broader and deeper. At the same time, some are even talking about raising the age limit for purchases to 21 because when you're 18, I mean, you can't rent a car, you can't drink technically, and so forth.
Laura, Beto O'Rourke, running -- the Democrat running for Texas governor, crashed Governor Abbott press conference. Let's take a brief look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R-TX): No. Please, get out of here. This is not the place to talk to you. So.
(CROSSTALK)
FMR. REP. BETO O'ROURKE (D-TX): You are offering us nothing. You have said this is not predictions. This is totally predictable when you choose to do nothing.
(CROSSTALK)
ABBOTT: Sir, you are out of line. Sir, you are out of line.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Laura, I thought that was kind of a tone-deaf stunt the day after all these children were killed. He could have had his own counter press conference a half an hour later. Quickly, what are your thoughts?
FINK: One person's stunt is another person's, you know, expression of outrage. I think what resonated in particular with that choice by Beto O'Rourke was the fact that a lot of Americans are outraged, and they're upset, and they're upset at the people in power for not doing things. And I think that that expression after shooting after shooting really is something that is reflective of how a lot of conversations that I'm having.
And, you know, I think the coverage of it was appropriate. I actually think I want to say overall, journalistic coverage of this shooting from the incidents and the discrepancies in the police reporting to the coverage of the data --
KURTZ: Yes.
FINK: -- that demonstrates the difference in American policy in international policy.
KURTZ: Right.
FINK: And the fact that gun violence is the leading cause of death of our children now.
KURTZ: All right.
FINK: I thought -- I think those facts need to be in the public square --
KURTZ: More --
FINK: -- and hopefully, we move some people.
KURTZ: More on the next segment. Ahead, my sit-down with Kellyanne Conway, but when we come back, can journalists really keep their emotions out of a gut-wrenching story like the Texas school shooting?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: This is a Fox News alert, President Biden and the first lady have just gotten on a helicopter in San Antonio enroute to Uvalde, Texas, the site of the terrible school shooting. They're going to meet with survivors, of family members of victims and first responders in a day of events.
Journalists generally try to put their emotions aside when covering difficult stories, but with the Texas school massacre, many are finding that impossible.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKA BRZEZINSKI, HOST, MSNBC: I don't want to stop feeling. I don't want to survive this story and move on to the next. I don't want to move on. I don't think any of us want to move on until something actually happens.
UNKNOWN: How is anybody doing this morning when you look at how this keeps happening? You and I have covered too many of these, and I try really hard -- it's getting harder.
UNKNOWN: Is this all of our faults? I mean, as a country, we're so divided. We are so -- you hate someone else because they vote a different way than you do? They'll never see their kids again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Guy Benson, I struggle with this myself, should journalists show emotion in the wake of a terrible tragedy like this?
BENSON: Well, journalists are not robots, and if you are describing on the air the slaughter of 19 children and two of their teachers --
KURTZ: Yes.
BENSON: -- and you don't feel something --
KURTZ: Right.
BENSON: -- and you don't catch a lump in your throat a little bit, then maybe you don't have a pulse. I think, you know, we're humans, that's OK. I think if it crosses a line into performance -- which is I'm not alleging that here --
KURTZ: Yes.
BENSON: -- that's another question. But I get the sadness, the human compassion, the anger when we're mislead and you find out there's 19 officers standing outside this locked door for an hour or so --
KURTZ: Yes, right.
BENSON: -- while the kids are begging for help inside with phone calls and such, I think that that is understandable. I would say, and you briefly alluded to this in the last segment, Howie, that one thing that we in the media can do and I try to do it on the radio, it's your policy as well here on this show, there is data that suggests that there's a copycat effect when we sort of glorify even in an ugly or lionize in some twisted minds these shooters. People are watching.
KURTZ: Right.
BENSON: People are out there saying, OK, interesting, his face is everywhere, his name is everywhere. I think you can check the box --
KURTZ: Yes.
BENSON: -- report who he was --
KURTZ: And move on.
BENSON: -- and never say the name again. That actually is something we can do in the media.
KURTZ: Laura, your thoughts on journalists and emotions and not, then not crossing the line though into becoming an advocate.
FINK: I'm sorry, I have no sound. I can't hear -- I can't hear you, Howie. I'm missing all of our panelist discussion. I don't know if you can hear me.
KURTZ: Can someone ask her to go ahead? If not, we'll try to get back when we get the sound? OK. I guess we'll try to get Laura back. OK, Laura?
FINK: I'm here. I'm sorry, Howie, I didn't hear your question. I have lost all audio.
KURTZ: Your thoughts on journalists and showing emotion in times of tragedy.
FINK: I think it's important and I think it's human, and I think it's one of those things that is, again, reflective of how all of Americans are feeling. I think it also demonstrates that, you know, that journalists who normally don't show emotion, it's just been too much. It's just been too much volume, too many shootings, too many grocery stores and synagogues and schools that we have to see this day in and day out. And I think that emotion is real, and I think it's appropriate.
KURTZ: Yes, I'm with you on that. Again, there's -- we don't want to cross the line but, you know we are human beings. And I think the country looks to us to see how we're reacting.
On this question of gun control, Friday's White House briefing, Guy, one reporter after another just hammered away at the press secretary, why hasn't Joe Biden gotten anything done on guns, why hasn't he prioritized it, why hasn't he led. They were questions, but they were all in the same vein.
BENSON: Yes. I mean, is it lobbying? Is it asking questions? I mean, I didn't see too many questions why hasn't he led on fill in the blank solution that doesn't involve gun control because there are legitimate parts of this conversation that have nothing to do with guns and have to do with, you know, safety and school security, et cetera.
It seems like in a lot of cases in the media it's a one-track solution, and they're all pushing for it. But that being said, I think it's a fair question. You could go back and maybe ask Barack Obama a similar question. He was president with 60 votes in the Senate, they did nothing on guns.
So, it's one thing to rage at the other side, you know, OK, what are you doing, --
KURTZ: Right.
BENSON: -- how are you leading as opposed to just finger-pointing and casting blame.
KURTZ: Laura, I've got half a minute. It seems Democrats are saying Republicans are heartless and they don't care about kids because they won't do anything, and Republicans are saying Democrats want to take your guns away, and that seems to shrink the space almost to nothing for a, even modest steps toward dealing with this crisis. Quick thoughts, please.
FINK: Well, I think even modest steps are blocked by Republican inaction. And I think the way that you see that is you're not seeing proposals for school safety at the national level, you're not seeing proposals that would address mental health, both of which are cited as potential causes in these incidents by Republicans.
So, I think the lack of will to even advance those proposals and attach a Republican brand to it is another reason why you're seeing this inaction on those fronts. And then the durability, I have to mention it, the durability of the filibuster and Democratic support of that, of upholding that filibuster is another reason why you need 60 votes, not 50 plus one.
KURTZ: All right. Yes. Well, of course, the filibuster can be used by Republicans when they control Congress. Good conversation on a difficult topic. Guy Benson, Laura Fink, thanks very much.
Up next, how about all those media stories about the Georgia election law preventing people from voting that turns out to be wrong? And later, what Kellyanne Conway told President Trump right after the election.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: When Georgia passed the controversial election law last year, most of the mainstream media and led by the president loudly and repeatedly condemned it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: Do you want to be the side -- on the side of Dr. King or George Wallace? Do you want to be on the side of John Lewis or Bull Connor?
JOY REID, HOST, MSNBC: The return of Jim Crow in Georgia. And Republicans' latest salvo in their war on democracy.
DON LEMON, HOST, CNN: This is the not about election security. Not when you're making it a crime to give food or water to voters in line.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: But it didn't turn out that way. I spoke to Steve Krakauer who writes the Fourth Watch newsletter on the media from Dallas.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KURTZ: Steve Krakauer, welcome.
STEVE KRAKAUER, EDITOR & HOST, FOURTH WATCH: Hey, Howie. Good to be here.
KURTZ: With turnout in the Georgia governor's race up 30 percent since the last midterms on the Democratic side, Stacey Abrams running unopposed, and up 98 percent in the Republican primary, doesn't all the fiery criticism about how this was a danger to democracy and, of course, Major League Baseball moving the all-star game out of Atlanta look absurdly overinflated?
KRAKAUER: Yes, absolutely. Look, it's not shocking that Democrats and other pundits on the left might make these certain, you know, voting rights stories a major issue in elections or in whatever campaigns they're trying to run. And the media should cover what the Democrats are saying.
The problem here is those things got so intertwined that the media started to make these same proclamations, as you mentioned, and that's really a problem because as we saw now it completely folded when it came to actually reality. So, yes, I think the major problem here and the media should go out and start to correct the record.
KURTZ: But on that point, Steve, --
KRAKAUER: Yes.
KURTZ: -- with the exception of The Washington Post, most major news organizations are reporting on the actual turnout but not mentioning all the gloom and doom predictions as if, you know, it's a fading dream never really happened last year.
KRAKAUER: Right, mentioning their own coverage of it before. No, exactly. We see this all the time. The media is often very hesitant to say we got this wrong, and here now we're going to try to get it right. And I have to say in this particular case it's an example of even doing that doesn't do enough because most people see the story the first time, they see the coverage originally, and that that's -- they don't have time to start going and looking at different sources and then, you know, nine months down the road seeing what actually happened.
They got it wrong, and the next story like this, they need to not go right into the Democratic talking points and take those as truth and actually go and start to examine the reality before they start to make these mistakes in the first place.
KURTZ: Two big losses for Donald Trump in Georgia. His arch enemy, Republican Governor Brian Kemp in a 50-point blowout over Trump's endorsed candidate and Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger who got to call from Trump about can you find 11,800 votes also easily, I should say renominated, not reelected.
How much -- and Trump has helped other candidates win. How much would the national media care about these individual races if it wasn't to write stories about how Trump is losing clout in the GOP?
KRAKAUER: Yes. You didn't see as much coverage of these Georgia races that Trump, quote, unquote, "lost" as you did with maybe J.D. Vance in Ohio. No, I think the storyline that the larger kind of sell the media apparatus likes this that Trump still has this giant grip on the GOP. These stories not so interesting because it tells the opposite story.
KURTZ: Right.
KRAKAUER: And I think Trump certainly is a major figure but, look, the media loves Trump because he's great for ratings and he's great for interest, and this is going to continue to happen for, you know, for cycles of elections to come.
KURTZ: I think you put your finger on it. Steve Krakauer, thanks very much for joining us.
KRAKAUER: Anytime. Thanks, Howie.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KURTZ: Next on MEDIA BUZZ, Kellyanne Conway on dealing with the media, and Donald Trump and the impact on her family. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: Kellyanne Conway, no stranger to this show during the Trump years, has just published a memoir, it's called "Here's The Deal" about her time in the White House, and I talked to her about it from New York.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KURTZ: Kellyanne Conway, welcome.
KELLYANNE CONWAY, FORMER COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: Thank you, Howie. Thanks for covering my new book, "Here's The Deal."
KURTZ: Got it in right away. You generally had good relations with the press, but your former boss talked about major news organizations being the enemy of the people, trading misbehavior, he mocked individual pundits and reporters. Did you ever try to advise him against that?
CONWAY: Well, President Trump knows how I feel, that I felt his best moments, his best days is when he was communicating information to the public that they otherwise would not have. That's why whether you like his tweets or you don't like his tweets, everybody had instant, free of charge presidential communication.
The plumber on the job, the stay-at-home mom, the billionaire CEO all were able to hear transparently and immediately what was on the mind of the president. Boy, do we really miss that now with this crew in the White House.
But of course, I'm not a big fan of the name-calling, but I will also say that it's President Trump who really looked past a lot of the name-calling that was being visited upon him and gave that same press access. There he was sometimes an hour, who hours up at podium in the press briefing room, Howie, to tell everyone what was going on with the coronavirus, later called COVID-19. There he was bringing reporters in the Oval Office, talking to him under the wing of Air Force One or Marine One, sometimes for close to an hour.
KURTZ: Yes.
CONWAY: So --
KURTZ: He absolutely provided access. And I remember some name-calling on the other side. Look, you are very loyal to Donald Trump, but in this book, you break with him and you broke with him at the time on the one issue that is the most important issue to him. You write after of the election I may have been the first person Donald Trump trusted in his inner circle who told him that he had come up short this time. Was that a difficult conversation?
CONWAY: Well, yes, because I wanted him to win. It was heartbreaking. I voted for him, I wanted him to have a second term. Obviously, this country would be much better off because look at the manmade disaster that is the Biden-Harris presidency.
But, Howie, Donald Trump very recently in the rigged documentary, a movie put out by Dave Bossies, Citizens United, he says there when we lost or we lost. So, he has said that. But it's -- I think he still can be curious about everything that happened. I still think that we should say universal mail-in balloting is a problem, ballot harvesting, chain of custody, where's voter I.D.?
I mean, gee, the media spent almost three years looking for Russia collusion never finding it, they couldn't go back to a single state and just be a little curious and dig in a little bit? They treated the 2020 election the way treated Hunter's laptop. Nothing to see here, we decide what the final conclusion is, no questions asked.
KURTZ: But Donald Trump is out there virtually every day trying to defeat Republicans who challenge him on the stolen election narrative. And he is saying things that you believe are not true. He is saying that it's the crime of the century, so you make clear that you believe that Joe Biden is the legitimate winner of the election, but you don't seem to want to go the next step and criticize the former president.
CONWAY: That's not true. And that's, respectfully, the wrong way to characterize it. I think the way to look at it is where do we go from here. Because the 74 million Americans who voted for President Trump, record number for a sitting president, what did they want? What are they looking for? I think the president knows how I feel because I tell him elections are always about the future, not the past.
KURTZ: On January 6th you pleaded with a Trump aide to tell the president to, please, speak out and stop the violence, but you also kind of pivot to blaming those around him saying they were deluding himself; they were not giving Trump the straight story and they were --
CONWAY: For months.
KURTZ: -- promising the president goods they could not deliver.
CONWAY: Yes, for months.
KURTZ: Do you believe Donald Trump bears some measure of responsibility for calling his supporters to Washington and suggesting they march on the capitol?
CONWAY: He had a -- he had a rally and he said fight like hell. He has made very clear, so you have to listen to his words and his intent, that he never knew people were going to go inside the capitol or, God forbid, what some of them actually did once inside the capitol.
Listen, it was shocking, Howie, and I write in my book that I'm still in shock. I think you've got many people in the mainstream media trying to castigate and denigrate and all mix together in this toxic brew the 74 million people who voted for Donald Trump who are hurting under the policies because he's not there anymore and those who breached the capitol.
They're not the same. I think you -- questioning the election in this state or that state to mail-in -- or the wisdom of mail-in ballots or chain of (Inaudible) or ballot harvesting does not make you, as I say in the book, the QAnon shaman. It makes you a curious person.
I think half the country is inconsolable about the 2020 elections. And the other half is incurious. How did that happen? I also went on live TV. I was on ABC News live telling people if you're listening, get out of there. What are you doing? People can protest, but you don't breach the building.
KURTZ: Let me --
CONWAY: So, but I am -- you know, I do wonder even for you, Howie, why every day is January 6th. Can you explain that to me?
KURTZ: January 6th was a very dark day in our history. I understand a lot of people would like to move on from January 6 when the former president --
(CROSSTALK)
CONWAY: No, I didn't say that. I'm just asking why every day is January 6th. Is there a good answer to that?
KURTZ: For the media, you're saying? For the Democrats?
CONWAY: Yes. Well, for you on the show but for the media and the Democrats just generally and a couple of Republicans who are, you know, having hearings on that but not --
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: I agree that many people are using it as a political weapon, but I also wanted to ask you about it. But I do want to move on because --
(CROSSTALK)
CONWAY: It's the covered in my book.
KURTZ: One other -- one other incident in the book where you do criticize the former president has to do with a briefing in the early months of the pandemic where he said there should be research into whether or not ingesting bleach could kill the virus. You raised questions about that briefing. You called it an unforced error. The president clearly misspoke by confusing the light therapy and the disinfectant. People still remember that.
CONWAY: They do remember that. But I devote, it's an entire chapter on it because I sounded the alarm bells and took chief of staff Mark Meadows out of the oval, we walked down to his office so he can meet with this person from -- from homeland security who the president did not know, and this is a great example of people trying to foist their own agenda, let's get somebody else there in the briefing, and the president is not properly briefed. And then he conflated the two. But I go through the entire episode that preceded it.
KURTZ: Let me briefly ask you about the couple of people you work with because there's a couple of things I want to get to. Steve Bannon. You say he denounced the media in public but privately he was feeding barrels of bull to journalists. Explain.
CONWAY: That is the true. And look, Steve and I had a good relationship. We work together, we were in the foxhole together breathing with each other's you know, carbon dioxide, practically with a couple of other people like Jared and Bossie and the president himself and the 2016 campaign, a very small team that got it done.
But I think for me, this hits close to home because so many of these folks wanted to prove to the president that I was a leaker. So, I have an entire chapter called how to spot a leaker, and it relates to conversation I had with the president. I had really spotted the leaker. Because leakers get great press. Does anybody really think that's me?
Leakers are constantly complimenting people like me, I don't know how you go out there and talk to the media, Kelly. And I can never do that and go back and talk to the media all day long. And so, I think people need to know the truth --
KURTZ: And someone else --
CONWAY: -- about who was feeding the media --
KURTZ: And someone else who accused you, as you write, of leaking to the media, unfairly, in your view, is Jared Kushner who you found difficult to work with.
CONWAY: Jared did not want to work with me, apparently, on any number of things that the president wanted us to collaborate on, and I think that is regrettable because at least when United States senators take my call or at least when I make it all the way to the White House, I know why. It's not in doubt. It's called merit, and it's called, frankly, integrity and performance.
So, I think that if the president asks people to work together even if you don't have a pre-existing relationship which Jared and I did have in the campaign, it was a very good relationship, even if you don't particularly like the person or share their politics, you do this on behalf of the country.
And Jared was constantly throwing logs on my way but telling other colleagues by telling members of Congress by telling people in the media, we don't trust her, she'll never get close to the president, she won't be on Air Force One, she's a leaker, she's not going to be in that meeting, what does she know about that a topic anyway.
And it had deleterious effects on the ability to get things done. And I feel, you know, Jared getting in my way as you (Inaudible), he's apologized since. I like Jared, he's a very smart person, but we should have worked together better. And he should have brought me into the to 2020 campaign.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KURTZ: After the break, Kellyanne Conway on her anti-Trump husband George and how the press pounced on their teenage daughter's TikTok videos.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: More now of my conversation with former White House counselor Kellyanne Conway.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KURTZ: As you write about in "Here's The Deal," your daughter Claudia, who was 15 at the time, started making some pretty harsh anti-Trump videos, and you blame the New York Times for putting together a montage of those videos even though they were, obviously, publicly available.
CONWAY: Sure. Well, there's lots of stuff that's publicly available. I see that that's -- I won't go there. There's lots of stuff that's publicly available. Taylor Lorenz knew what she was doing, and now she's on TV crying when people publish her name or give people her address.
This is a 35-year-old grown woman direct messaging our 15-year-old daughter after midnight promising her fame, fortune, likes, followers, and it allowed the floodgates to open for other equally irresponsible and reprehensible, quote, "reporters" to talk to a minor child.
Howie, I don't know what the standards are at Fox News, I don't know what they are at the New York Times, but there don't seem to be standards in place that tell you what is right and what is just wrong when it comes to dealing with minors. And we're letting her -- we're letting her just be talked to by a hungry media?
KURTZ: Yes.
CONWAY: Do you think my daughter matters less? Do you think that the sanctity of my family matters less? Do you think my sexual assault matters less? Do you think that my marriage deserves more scrutiny because of how I vote or where I work? That is, that is the root of all evil that happened here.
And you know what? Claudia Marie Conway and her three siblings, George, Charlotte, and Vanessa, they have more class, dignity, discretion, and judgment in their pinky than the adults that were hounding them.
KURTZ: Well, as a father, I sympathize with you during that whole episode. Now, you write about your marriage in the book and Trump famously call George Conway the husband from hell. And you left the White House a couple of months before the elections saying your kids needed more mama, less drama, and I think you thought -- you said you thought -- that George would step back as well.
You're very candid about this in the book, you say that you told your husband he was attacking you by attacking people in the White House, by letting your marriage vows. You write America will survive, George and I may not survive. So, these struggles it sounds like are still going on.
CONWAY: Look, George's vows are not to Donald Trump. They're not to a political party, they're not to a president, nothing of this role. I mean, I make that very clear. The vows are to me, it's to love, honor and cherish, and that also means supporting my work as he always had.
And without George Conway encouraging if not insisting me to take my shot in 2016 when I got the campaign manager offer, without him being there on election night in his MAGA hat applauding and so excitedly celebrating the election of Donald Trump and then taking a job, a big job in the Trump administration, I probably would not have been able to.
You do these things as a couple, as a family. And George changed his mind about Donald Trump, and I assume me. Again, this is America. That's OK, Howie. What's not OK is expressing it publicly so ubiquitously, so constantly and giving into the mob who really only cares about clicks and kicks, who only truly cares about drama and trauma because look at them? Have you seen these people?
They are terrified, thin-skinned, troubled people living in glass houses with very messy lives, and they just want -- they want to deal -- by the way, when President Trump commented on George Conway publicly and even privately, it was few and far between. I can recall three times privately - -
KURTZ: Yes.
CONWAY: -- that he mentioned George by name, and he only did that probably out of protection of me. He could have asked me to leave, I write in the book, who could blame President Trump if he called me in one day and said, listen, Kellyanne, it's too much.
KURTZ: Yes.
CONWAY: I love you, you're part of this extended political family but I've got to worry about Kim Jong-un and Vladimir Putin. I can't worry about George Conway's suites. He never did that.
KURTZ: I've got just a few seconds. You're back in the politics game now. Could you see yourself working for Donald Trump in 2024?
CONWAY: Well, we'll see if he runs, and I know he wants to. He's itching to run to get that rematch with Joe Biden to get this country's policies back on the right track, and as always, I will make the decision based on my family first which is what I did in 2016, as it has always been. There's no term limit on you being a mom, and there's no bigger job. There's four kids at the chambers of my heart. But I want Joe Biden and Kamala Harris out of there.
KURTZ: Kellyanne Conway, thanks very much for joining us.
CONWAY: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KURTZ: Donald Trump said in a statement that Kellyanne Conway never told me that she thought we lost the election. If she had, I wouldn't have dealt with her any longer. She would have been wrong, could go back to her crazy husband. Kellyanne told Fox she stands by her account and told me she'd seen a Trump draft statement praising the book that some people around him prompting him to change.
Still to come, President Biden tells a reporter the U.S. military will defend Taiwan. Why does the White House keep walking that back?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: It was the worst kept secret in Washington, Jen Psaki was constrained from discussing it, but MSNBC has now announced the former press secretary will join the network and also host an online show.
The President of the United States was unambiguous about defending Taiwan when CBS' Nancy Cordes asked him the questions on his Asia trip. He did not mince words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY CORDES, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CBS NEWS: Very quickly, you didn't want to get involved in the Ukraine conflict militarily for obvious reasons. Are you willing to get involve militarily to defend Taiwan if it comes to that?
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Yes.
CORDES: You are?
BIDEN: That's the commitment we made.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Almost immediately the White House walked it back in a statement, as the president said, our policy has not changed. He reiterated our one China policy and our commitment to peace and stability across the Taiwan Strait.
Joining us now, Kevin Corke, who covers the White House for Fox News. Kevin, Joe Biden says we will defend Taiwan militarily, period. He's the commander in chief. The policy is what he says he is. So why does the White House keep rushing out these statements saying, no change, nothing to see here?
KEVIN CORKE, FOX NEWS WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The problem is twofold. Number one, look, you're going to make mistakes, this happens with all presidents, you and I have covered plenty. And so, we hear this. But the problem is the alarming frequency with which this is happening by the president of the United States.
He'll make a statement that's slightly off topic or make a statement that's slightly off the exact policy, and in doing so in and in being inaccurate or in some cases, not fulsome in the description, it certainly makes the team run back out there. You may recall he actually did this before, Howie back in October.
KURTZ: On Taiwan.
CORKE: On Taiwan.
KURTZ: Yes, he said it at least twice.
CORKE: Yes.
KURTZ: So, this is the what he really thinks. But let me get, so a couple days later it seemed like the president had gotten with the program. Let's show that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Mr. President, would you send troops to Taiwan if China invaded?
BIDEN: The policy is not changed at all. I said that when I made my statement yesterday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Except he didn't say that. So, the pattern here going back to Vladimir Putin should be allowed to remain in power and then of course, another White House explanation, clarification and so forth.
CORKE: He's a war criminal, remember, he said that.
KURTZ: Yes. Why does the president, Biden allowed his subordinates to contradict him on Taiwan? Because clearly, this is how he feels.
CORKE: It is the how he feels, Howie, but the problem is he's not some, to use an expression I've heard before, he's not a big-mouthed senator from a small state like Delaware. You're the president. You have to be precise. And if you're imprecise, in particular in circumstances like this, listen, China's foreign minister just as an example said, China will take firm actions to safeguard its sovereignty and security interest.
When you make statements like this and they're either imprecise again or inaccurate altogether, it can have major policy implications. And so, what he's having to do is, have his team go out there and play cleanup on aisle five.
Here is the risk, though, Howie. If you do this repeatedly, it's not just a strategic problem, you're not being strategically ambiguous, it's a problem because you force your team to do something they ought not do which is make you look like you're wrong. They need to be lifting up your message, and they're not able to do that all too often.
KURTZ: Well, I wonder whether the president is actually trying to send a message knowing full well that the official policy of strategic ambiguity will have to be walked back. But look, you covered the Trump White House. If President Trump had done the exact same thing and the White House had walked it back, would the media reaction have been a lot of focus on his level of foreign policy knowledge?
CORKE: No. I think the problem would have been the media despised President Trump writ large. You remember the Washington Post, for example, had a daily fact check, and they had thousands and thousands of instances where they accused him of lying even in the case -- in a case where he may have misspoken.
I think the difference would have been that the media would have said this is a person who is not buttoned up. This is a person, even Biden himself, you may recall back in 2001, said words matter in an op-ed that he wrote about then-President Bush who made sort of similar misstatements about Taiwan. So, I think the media would have taken their shots at President Trump.
KURTZ: Words do matter especially when you're president. Kevin Corke, always good to see you.
CORKE: You too.
KURTZ: And that's it for this edition of MEDIA BUZZ. I'm Howard Kurtz. I hope you're enjoying this Memorial Day weekend as we honor our servicemembers. Give my daily podcast a try, Media Buzz Meter. You can subscribe at Apple iTunes and lots of other places. Like to have you along for the ride. This is the part where I say we're back here next Sunday at 11 Eastern. I look forwarding to seeing you then with the latest buzz.
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