Mayor Pete Buttigieg on Iowa caucuses result, attacks from 2020 rivals, expectations for New Hampshire Short

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Mayor Pete Buttigieg on Iowa caucuses result, attacks from 2020 rivals, expectations for New Hampshire

Democratic presidential candidate Pete Buttigieg joins Chris Wallace on 'Fox News Sunday.'

This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," February 9, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I'm Chris Wallace, reporting live from Bedford, New Hampshire, ahead of the first in the nation primary, where the stakes are even higher after election chaos in Iowa.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Our campaign is off to a very, very good start.

PETE BUTTIGIEG (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are going on to New Hampshire victorious!

WALLACE: Bernie Sanders and Pete Buttigieg in a virtual tie, but the Iowa results is still in dispute.

And the future of former front runner Joe Biden now in question.

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am not going to sugar-coat. We took a gut punch in Iowa.

WALLACE: This hour, we are joined by the two new leaders in the Democratic race who are now going after each other.

SANDERS: Unlike some of the folks up here, I don't have 40 billionaires, Pete, contributing to my campaign.

BUTTIGIEG: This is a time for addition, not rejection. For belonging, not exclusion.

WALLACE: Mayor Pete Buttigieg and Senator Bernie Sanders, just two days before the New Hampshire primary.

Then.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But this is what the end result is.

WALLACE: President Trump takes a victory lap after being acquitted on impeachment charges. We'll ask our Sunday panel what's his plan for reelection and a possible second term.

And, our Power Player of the Week, the new man in charge of America's treasure chest.

All, right now, on "FOX News Sunday".

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: And hello again from FOX News, today in Bedford New Hampshire, just two days before the first in the nation primary. We are live in the great hall of the Bedford Village Inn, ahead of the high-stakes race here in the Granite State, a race that's even more important after the vote counting chaos in Iowa embarrass the Democratic Party.

In a moment, we'll speak with the two candidates who are both claiming victory in Iowa, Mayor Pete Buttigieg and Senator Bernie Sanders, both the new front runners taking fire from the other contenders in the Democratic race.

But first, let's bring in Peter Doocy with the latest from the campaign trail here in New Hampshire -- Peter.

PETER DOOCY, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Chris, during one of our trips here this summer, the secretary of state told us that, because New Hampshire doesn't have professional sports teams, the primaries are like their pro sports. And people are taking this one very seriously.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BUTTIGIEG: This is the decision we will remember for the rest of our lives.

DOOCY: Pete Buttigieg and Bernie Sanders both say they won Iowa.

SANDERS: If you read these articles out there, establishment is beginning to get nervous.

DOOCY: Elizabeth Warren is taking her pitch to people's porches.

REPORTER: Did you get his vote?

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Here we go. I am close. But I got the woman who came out.

DOOCY: Warren and Sanders may have a home-field advantage, which has Joe Biden worried about going 0 for 2.

BIDEN: I've always viewed the first four encounters, two primaries and two caucuses, as a starting point.

DOOCY: Biden's latest warning argument is about labels, warning Sanders is a Democratic socialist and Buttigieg a small town mayor.

Sanders doesn't seem eager to mix it up with Biden. But Buttigieg does.

BUTTIGIEG: I do not believe we can take the risk of falling back on the familiar.

DOOCY: And that line has Biden blasting Buttigieg with a serious diss for the Democrat.

BIDEN: This guy is not a Barack Obama.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOOCY: But Barack Obama and Pete Buttigieg have something in common. They've both beaten Joe Biden in Iowa -- Chris.

WALLACE: Peter Doocy reporting from up the road in Concord, New Hampshire -- Peter, thank you.

And joining us now, one of the co-winners of the Iowa caucuses, former Mayor Pete Buttigieg.

Welcome back to "FOX News Sunday".

BUTTIGIEG: Good to be back.

WALLACE: So how much did your win, I'll put it slightly in quotes, in Iowa transform the creditability of your campaign to show voters that you can actually beat this field?

BUTTIGIEG: Well, I think it was critically important. For the last year, presidential candidates have been saying that -- claiming that we're the ones who can put the campaign together that's going to ultimately go on to defeat Donald Trump. And the process of proving that began in Iowa.

I was especially pleased that we had a coalition of suburban and rural and urban voters -- caucusgoers. We had older and younger caucusgoers supporting us, and did particularly well in some of those counties that had swung from President Obama to vote for Trump. But that's one state and it's one day.

New Hampshire is a state that thinks for itself with a very strong independent streak and we know that we've got to earn every vote here. And so I will continue to be on the ground doing events, taking questions, spending time with voters, making sure that they hear our vision and that I hear their concerns, and we think that's how we're going to succeed here too.

WALLACE: Now the flipside of that is -- I don't have to tell you -- you're more of a target. Among others -- Joe Biden has come out with a new ad specifically targeting you. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AD ANNOUNCER: Joe Biden helped lead the passage of the Affordable Care Act which gave health care to 20 million people. And when park-goers called on Pete Buttigieg, he installed decorative lights under bridges, giving citizens of South Bend color-free, illuminated rivers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Now, you say that Biden is mocking people in small towns. He says the point he's making is you just have too little experience on too small a scale. You'd like to say that the Democrats who win are the ones who push for generational change -- John Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama. He says -- and this is his quote -- he's no Barack Obama.

BUTTIGIEG: Well, he's right, I'm not. And neither is he. Neither is any of us.

And this isn't 2008, this is 2020. This is about how we're going to turn the page and deliver a better future in the country.

But I'll also say, there's so many communities, and cities like mine in the industrial Midwest, rural areas, and even neighborhoods in our biggest cities that are tired of being treated as a punch line or not feeling that our voices are heard in Washington.

And a big part of this campaign is about making sure that we carry those voices to the Capitol, instead of thinking that the answers are somehow going to come from Washington as we know it. In order to win, but also in order to govern, we need to be ready to look to the future and that's what my campaign is about.

WALLACE: Let's talk about some of the issues that have come out recently. In the debate on Friday night, you were asked about the fact that African Americans in South Bend were four times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than whites were. Here was part of that exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you explain the increase in black arrests in South Bend under your leadership for marijuana possessions?

BUTTIGIEG: And again, the overall rate was never lower --

UNKNOWN: No. There was an increase. The year before you were in office, it was lower.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: I'm less interested in the statistic than -- the fact it seem to me that you weren't straight. That you -- at first, you docked the question and when she pressed it again, you seem to deny it. And, you know, you have the reputation as a straight talker. The fact is blacks were four times more likely to be arrested for marijuana arrests in your town when you were mayor.

BUTTIGIEG: No, that disparity is there. And it's there in our city and it's there across the country.

So, one of the things I wanted to make sure got across was that that was only part of the story. That in my city, black residents were less likely to be arrested on drug charges than in the state or in the country. But still, the disparity is real. It's a problem and it's one of the reasons why I'm proposing that we legalize marijuana outright and when we do, we have a process of expungements and looking backwards at the harm that drug policy has caused.

Look, we have seen time and time again racial disparities in the enforcement, not just in drug laws, but across the criminal legal system. And we need reform. No one mayor is going to be able to resolve it. This is a national process that I'm pleased to see there is more and more bipartisan energy around doing something about it. It's got to happen now.

WALLACE: Mayor, you not only want to decriminalize marijuana, you want to decriminalize all drug possession. You say that the better answer isn't (ph) incarceration -- I mean, rather treatment, not incarceration.

BUTTIGIEG: That's right.

WALLACE: -- but isn't the fact that it's illegal to have -- to possess meth and heroin, doesn't that at least in some way, the fact that's illegal, act as a -- some deterrent to actually trying it in the first place?

BUTTIGIEG: Well, I think the main thing we need to focus on is where you have distribution and the -- the kind of harm that's done there. Well, yes, of course, it's important that it remain illegal but --

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: But you would decriminalize it, so it wouldn't be illegal?

BUTTIGIEG: Possession should not be that dealt through incarceration and - -

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: But you would say that possession heroin is not illegal?

BUTTIGIEG: It's not going to be dealt with through incarcerations.

WALLACE: But your -- your website says decriminalize. It would not be illegal?

BUTTIGIEG: Yes. Or it could be a misdemeanor.

The point is not the legal niceties. The point is that we have learned through 40 years of a failed war on drugs that criminalizing addiction doesn't work. Not only that, the incarceration does more harm than the offense it's intended to deal with.

This is not saying that these substances are OK. It's saying that when somebody develops that kind of addiction, throwing them in jail or being in a situation where jail is the closet thing they'll ever get to inpatient treatment, shows a profound failure in our country's mental health and addiction treatment system. And I don't think that comes as a surprise.

The American people know that we've got to do a better job. And, frankly, expecting the law enforcement system, first responders and jails to be the frontlines of mental health is just no way to run the United States of America.

WALLACE: In our town hall in Des Moines two weeks ago, you had an interesting discussion with a Democrats for Life woman -- a woman who was pro-life who said that all she wants is for the party -- the Democratic Party to make an explicit statement that people like her are welcomed into the party.

Here's a bit of that exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you want the support of pro-life Democrats -- pro- life Democratic voters, there are about 21 million of us?

BUTTIGIEG: I respect where you're coming from, and I hope to earn your vote, but I'm not going to try to earn your vote by tricking you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: For someone who talks so much about inclusion, that struck a lot of people as sounding like you were trying to kick people out.

BUTTIGIEG: Well, I was trying to show her the respect of being honest with her. Look, she is very welcome to join this effort. I hope that voters like her do, but I'm not going to turn around and support the criminalization of women and doctors as a way to get a vote because I don't believe it's right.

I know that this is a tough and a sensitive issue. I'm from South Bend, Indiana. A lot of people I know -- a lot of my own supporters don't view this the way that I do.

But at the end of the day, it is very important to me and I think to most Americans to respect a woman's right to choose.

WALLACE: I think that she wasn't saying that you have to change your view. She was saying, is the tent big enough in the Democratic Party that people like her who are against abortion -- who are pro-life, are they welcomed into the party if they want to support them?

BUTTIGIEG: Here's what I would say. To me, being pro-life means also making sure that children can grow up and be healthy and succeed. It means making sure that there's maternal care. It means making sure that there's nutrition.

And if we can agree on that much, then perhaps she can support me. And if not, I respect that.

WALLACE: You have made it clear you want some structural changes, not just specific issue changes. One of them is to end the Electoral College.

But doesn't that mean, in a general election, if it was just about the popular vote, nobody would come to a state like New Hampshire because they'd be too busy gong to population centers like New York and Los Angeles?

BUTTIGIEG: No, I don't think that would be the effect and the reason is we run every other election in this country in the traditional fashion -- in other words, you know, the person who gets the most votes gets to win the election. And when you're running for governor of a state of any size, you go to the big cities and you go to the small towns. We don't run governor races in some Electoral College system where certain counties count more than certain other counties. And if you want to earn that office, you campaign everywhere. I think the same is true for the country.

And at the end of the day, it's not clear to me why a rancher in Texas should not count because they are in a state that's overwhelmingly conservative. Or somebody living in Brooklyn shouldn't count because their community is overwhelmingly liberal. Or that my city, a midsize city in the industrial Midwest, doesn't have much of a voice because I'm part of a state that's not considered a swing state.

It doesn't even benefit small states. It just benefits some states. And at the end of the day, I think it's fair for everybody's vote to count the exact same, like we do in every other election that we run in this country.

WALLACE: Finally, Bernie Sanders, who is going to be our next guest after the commercial, is going at you hard right now, especially about the issue of some of your campaign donors.

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: Unlike some of the folks up here, I don't have 40 billionaires, Pete, contributing to my campaign, coming from the pharmaceutical industry, coming from Wall Street and all the big money interest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: You say, look, to beat Donald Trump, we need all the help, all the money, all the support we can get. No qualms about accepting contributions from what he calls big money interests?

BUTTIGIEG: We've gotten 2 million contributions in this campaign. I think the average is under 40 bucks. And we are building the movement that is going to defeat Donald Trump.

I want everybody to help out. I want everybody who shares that vision to be at our side. I think Donald Trump raised -- and his allies raised 25 million bucks in one day.

I'm building a campaign that's not defined by who we reject. It's defined by belonging. It's defined by inclusion. It's defined by pulling together a coalition to get the job done. And at the end of the day, whether somebody goes to peteforamerica.com and chips in the five bucks --

WALLACE: OK.

BUTTIGIEG: You know I got to say the website --

WALLACE: Yes.

BUTTIGIEG: But also, this is how we built the campaign. Or whether somebody comes to an event and may be a surgeon who can contribute $2,000 without it being much skin off their back. I want all of them to be part of this effort.

WALLACE: Mayor Buttigieg, thank you. Thanks for your time, sir.

BUTTIGIEG: Thank you.

WALLACE: And we'll be watching in your final push before Tuesday.

BUTTIGIEG: Sounds good.

WALLACE: When we come back, the other big winner out of Iowa, Senator Bernie Sanders joins us to discuss his 2020 strategy, as "FOX News Sunday" continues alive from the great hall of the Bedford Village Inn, right here in New Hampshire.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: And we're back now from Bedford, New Hampshire, just two days before the nation's first primary.  We're joined by the man who shared top honors in Iowa, Senator Bernie Sanders. He's on the campaign trail in Manchester.  Senator, I just asked Major Buttigieg about your charges about him that he's accepting money from billionaires. He says the point is, you've got to build a coalition and accept money from all sources if you're going to beat Donald Trump. So the question is, are you more interested in purity than you are in winning?  SANDERS: No, I am more interested in transforming this country and lowering the outrageous cost of prescription drugs, in making sure that every American has health care as a human right, not a privilege, and making sure that our kids can afford to go to college and not leave school deeply in debt.  And here is the problem. Everybody knows this, whether you're a conservative or a progressive. It is the brilliant ads and the big money that tries (ph) to control what goes on politically, what goes on legislatively in this country. And if you do, as Mayor Buttigieg does, take huge amounts of contributions from the CEOs of the pharmaceutical industry from financers in the fossil fuel industry, from the insurance companies, from Wall Street, does anyone seriously believe that you're going to stand up to those powerful entities and represent working people?  Chris, I am enormously proud of the fact that my campaign today, as of today, has received more campaign contributions from more people averaging all of $18.50 than any candidate in the history of the United States of America. We are a campaign of the working class, by the working class and for the working class. And we are going to take on Wall Street and the insurance companies, and the drug companies and the fossil fuel industry and finally create a government an economy that works for all of us, not just the 1 percent.  WALLACE: But Pete Buttigieg, not to -- not to take his side in this argument, just to -- just to state what his argument is, he says, look, I've put out my platform. I'm going to work for working and middle class people. If billionaires want to support me, support what I stand for, what's wrong with that?  SANDERS: Look, Chris, do you or anybody else in America really believe that if the CEOs of the pharmaceutical industry are making significant contributions to a campaign that they don't know what they are doing?  Look, let me be very honest with you, and mind you the drug companies are not only extraordinarily greedy in charging us, in some cases, 10 times more for the prescription drugs that we get as they do in Canada or in any other country, they are corrupt. They engage in price fixing. They engage in collusion. In terms of the opioid epidemic, they were actually selling a product that they knew was addictive in killing people. They continue to do it.  Do you think when the CEOs of major pharmaceutical companies contribute to your campaign, that you are really going to take them on? I don't think that you will.  We have massive levels of income and wealth inequality in America. Three people have more wealth than the bottom half of America. Do you really think you're going to take on the rich and say, guess what, guys, you're going to finally start paying your fair share of taxes, not as Trump did, give a trillion dollars in tax breaks for the 1 percent and large corporations. I think common sense suggests that when you take money and you're dependent on billionaires, you're not going to stand up to them, you're not going to effectively represent working families.  WALLACE: Senator, you are -- and this picks up right on this conversation -- you are getting hit as a Democratic socialist, which is how you have identified yourself for decades, by everyone from Joe Biden to Donald Trump.  Take a look.  (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)  JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Bernie's labeled (ph) himself (INAUDIBLE) a democratic socialist. I think that's (INAUDIBLE) if he's the nominee.  DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I think he's a communist. I mean, you know, look, I think it's communism when I think of Bernie. Now, you could say socialist, but didn't he get married in Moscow. Well, that's wonderful. Moscow's wonderful.  (END VIDEO CLIP)  WALLACE: In -- (INAUDIBLE) watch it. I know you laugh.  SANDERS: (INAUDIBLE).  Yes, I just wanted to say Chris -- Chris -- Chris, I just want to say something. And it -- and it's really sad. I gives me no pleasure to say this. We've got a president who's a pathological liar, who lies all (INAUDIBLE) -- no, I did not get married in Moscow. I participated in creating a sister city program with the city of Yaraslavo (ph) when I was mayor of the city. We had Republicans with us. People -- city officials. So that's a lie.  And, obviously, I am not a communist, that I presume the president knows the difference -- maybe he doesn't but I don't know.  WALLACE: OK. OK but -- and here's the question. In a general election, where you're going to need the support, not just of liberal, progressive, left wing Democrats, but you're also going to need the support of independents, even conceivably some moderate Republicans, how do you overcome, not (ph) the communist label but the socialist label, which -- which Joe Biden said, not Donald Trump.  SANDERS: OK. Right. Right. That's fair enough, Chris, and I -- I want to make two points on that.  Number one, in many respects -- in many respects, we are a socialist society today. we have a huge budget. It puts money into all areas.  Now, Donald Trump, before he was president, as a private business person, he received $800 million in tax breaks and subsidies to build luxury housing in New York. Now, what does that mean when the government gives you $800 million in tax breaks and subsidies? The fossil fuel industry, whose produce happens to be destroying our planet right now, it's seen tens and tens of billions of dollars in tax breaks and subsidies. So does the pharmaceutical industry.  The difference between my socialism and Trump's socialism is, I believe the government should help working families, not billionaires. So I believe that health care is a human right. I believe we should raise the minimum wage to a living wage of $15 an hour. I believe, in fact, that the rich must start paying their fair share of taxes when you have massive levels of income and wealth inequality.  WALLACE: But -- but -- but, Senator, let me -- let me ask you about some aspects -- specific aspects of your agenda. And you've just laid out some.  Let's put up on the -- on the screen some of the things that you are proposing. According -- this is a report from CNN. If you add up your proposal for Medicare for all and the green new deal and cancelation of all student debt and a guaranteed federal jobs program, all things that you propose, that comes to $60 trillion of new spending over 10 years.  Senator, the Congressional Budget Office, non-partisan, estimates projected over the next 10 years right now the federal government will spend a total of $52 trillion in new spending.  You're more than double that.  SANDERS: All right, Chris, let me deal with the issues. First of all, we pay for everything that we propose. In terms of health care, the question that Trump and Joe Biden, anybody else has got to answer, if we leave the status quo alone, in the next 10 years we're going to be spending $50 trillion.  We are now spending twice as much per person, $11,000 a year, as do the people of any other country on earth. We're spending a fortune for health care and yet we have 87 million Americans uninsured or under insured, 30,000 die each year because they don't get to a doctor. And, unbelievably, 500,000 people go bankrupt because of medically-related illnesses. They get cancer. They go bankrupt. That's insane.  The Medicare --  WALLACE: But -- but, Senator --  SANDERS: They will cost the average -- let me finish. Medicare for all will cost the average American less than the $12,000 a year they are paying right now to the insurance companies. You can call it whatever you want, but when you pay a premium to the insurance companies, I call that a tax. I end those premiums. We end the co-pays (ph) (INAUDIBLE) --  WALLACE: But -- but, Senator, let me -- let -- let me get in here.  Larry Summers, not a right-wing conservative, he was the Treasury secretary for Bill Clinton.  SANDERS: Right.  WALLACE: He was the top economic adviser -- one of the top economic advisers to Barack Obama.  SANDERS: Yes. I know Larry. Yes.  WALLACE: OK. He -- here's what he had to say about your plan. This is far more radical than all previous presidencies on either the right (INAUDIBLE) or on the left, building up programs.  SANDERS: (INAUDIBLE).  WALLACE: How do you persuade voters in a general election that you're in the political mainstream?  SANDERS: I -- the sound was interrupted, so I didn't hear everything that you said.  But let me just say this, Chris, every other major country on earth guarantees health care to all people as a human right and they also spend substantially less per capita, they all pay far less for prescription drugs.  WALLACE: But he's not just talking about --  SANDERS: I --  WALLACE: But he's not just talking about health care. He's talking about the whole program. He says it's far more radical than (INAUDIBLE).  SANDERS: Let me -- let me -- sorry, Chris -- Chris, I've got to --  WALLACE: OK.  SANDERS: In terms of climate change. Chris, in terms of climate change, I do propose a lot of money. And you know why, because the scientists are telling us the future of the planet is at stake. We spend $60 billion dealing with Hurricane Sandy. You see what's happening in Puerto Rico. You see what's happening in Australia right now.  What the scientists are telling us is we have an existential crisis. How much do you think it's going to cost when we have more and more extreme weather disturbances?  WALLACE: Right.  SANDERS: What do you think it's going to cost in crude production when we have increased drought. We have got to act to save this planet. And the green new deal, by the way, creates up to 20 million good paying jobs, transforming our energy system away from fossil fuel (INAUDIBLE). But on this issue of climate change, Chris, there are very few options if we want to save this planet for our kids and our grandchildren, give them a planet that's healthy and inhabitable. We need a forceful response. That's not Bernie Sanders. That's what the scientific community is telling us.  And, by the way, it is a disgrace that we have a president who ignores that reality.  WALLACE: Senator Sanders, thank you. It's always good to speak with you, sir. Always invigorating.  SANDERS: (INAUDIBLE).  WALLACE: We'll be watching how the world turns on Tuesday night.  SANDERS: Thank you very much, Chris.  WALLACE: Up next -- thank you.

Up next, we'll bring in our Sunday group to discuss how this week's primary could change the direction of the Democratic race, as "FOX News Sunday" continues from Bedford, New Hampshire.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: Coming up, President Trump touts his record in a week that saw his impeachment acquittal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We are moving forward at a pace that was unimaginable just a short time ago. And we are never, ever going back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: We'll ask our Sunday panel whether voters will rally around that message.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's a long -- the long race. I took a hit in Iowa, and I'll probably take a hit here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Well, former front runner Joe Biden -- I say former -- already conceding defeat in New Hampshire ahead of Tuesday's primary.

And it's time now for our Sunday group.

GOP strategist Karl Rove, Julie Pace, Washington bureau chief for "The Associated Press," Dana Perino, anchor of "The Daily Briefing," and Fox News political analyst Juan Williams.

Well, Dana, as our messaging guru, how good an idea to acknowledge that you're going to lose a couple of days before people even go to the polls?

DANA PERINO, ANCHOR, "THE DAILY BRIEFING": I would say -- this is Joe Biden in the debate the other night. That was a first -- opening line, and it was a little bit shocking. And I -- I'm sure disappointing to some of his supporters.

However, that was clearly planned by his campaign. They wanted to lower expectations. The problem is, they've been lowering expectations of so far down that you wonder how they think that they can bounce back.

You know, we have -- we know a lot about what's happening here in New Hampshire. Kind of know what happened in Iowa. We don't know a lot about Nevada or South Carolina. He had a lead there, but I feel like the national lead is starting to slip away from him.

I thought, from a communications standpoint, Bernie Sanders feels, to me, like their best communicator. He's the one that's punching. You might not agree with him, but he's at least the one that's really trying to take it to President Trump.

But I would also say, you're not talking a lot about Elizabeth Warren. Coming in third means that you don't get a lot of attention. But Amy Klobuchar was described by some political analysts here and reporters in this state saying she had such a good debate performance on Friday night that she's the one that's on the move. And she was said to be the most interesting one to watch.

WALLACE: Yes, it's interesting, there was a new poll today -- I think it was "The Boston Globe" poll, and it indicated that Buttigieg, off his debate performance, slipped a couple of points, and Amy Klobuchar went up three points.

Which brings me to you, Julie, what's your read on this race, now two days out? Are Buttigieg and Sanders still the frontrunners? And what are -- among the other three, Warren, Biden, Klobuchar, who do you think is most likely to spring a surprise?

JULIE PACE, "THE ASSOCIATED PRESS": I think you have to look at what's happening in New Hampshire, and then you have to look at what could happen in the states to come.

In New Hampshire, I think everywhere you go right now you feel a lot of energy for Bernie Sanders. It's really undeniable right now. Buttigieg does seem to have gotten a bounce here coming out of Iowa.

But I would say, watch Klobuchar. She has had strong debates throughout this cycle, but she's never had a debate that has been this close to a voting contest. And this is when people start to tune in. And when I was out yesterday talking with voters and at events, not just her events but others, a lot of interest in her.

The big question though is, you know, Iowa and New Hampshire, we talk about this a lot, these are two states that don't look like the rest of the country and they don't look like the rest of the Democratic Party. The challenge for Joe Biden right now is to hang on until South Carolina. Can he keep his supporters there, energized enough, and thinking that he actually is electable, or will he go in there with a real sense that this is a campaign that's on the decline?

WALLACE: Karl, you've had some expense in New Hampshire.

KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Oh. Oh.

WALLACE: I always like to bring this up. I've been planning this question for about 48 hours. You and George W. Bush, and I like to say you and George W. Bush, not George W. Bush and you, 2000, New Hampshire primary, lost in an upset to John --

ROVE: Eighteen points.

WALLACE: To John McCain.

Yes, all right, good, I'm glad to see you don't remember.

How do you read the Democratic race in New Hampshire two days out?

ROVE: Well, we'll have a surprise. We know one thing, Bernie Sanders, who won here by 22 points last time around, if he wins, is not going to be winning by 22 points. This field is fragmented.

We -- for the first time ever, we're going to have five candidates who are getting delegates out of Iowa. The previous record was three. Lowest percentage winner, 26 point odd (ph) in Iowa ever. And we're going to have a similarly fragmented picture here.

What was interesting to me was your interview with Sanders, who, talk about a great drive-by. Two -- two one hundredths of one percent of the money that Pete Buttigieg has raised his come from 40 billionaires who gave him $2,800 each, and yet suddenly those contributions made him responsible for the opioid crisis, and fossil fuels, and climate. I thought that was really great on -- on Bernie's part, just drive it in there.

And -- and the same with his -- his interview with -- his question with you on -- on money. We pay for everything, he said. Well, that's not what he told Norah O'Donnell. He said, I don't even know what it costs. Nobody knows. So what is it? And -- but artfully done and -- and I think enough to keep him in the hunt for first place.

WALLACE: But I want to pick up on something you said, because back in 2016, now, you know, we need to point out, he's from the neighboring state of Vermont. People in New Hampshire have known him for decades. He beat Hillary Clinton, 60 percent to 38, 22 points.

Let's say he beats Buttigieg by five points, is that a victory or is that - -

ROVE: Well, it's a -- it is a victory. You can't take that away from him. But it is a sign of the fragmentation of this field. And it's going to go on at least through March 3rd that this field is going to be fragmented. Think about it, we got -- we got five people competing here. We -- we don't know how many are going to be still alive by March 3rd, but we're going to have another entrant into the cause on March 3rd, Mayor Mike, who's spending God-awful amounts of money in states that vote on the 3rd of March. I cannot turn on my television without seeing the mayor telling me what great accomplishments he's had in New York City, which in Texas is not exactly a great selling message.

WALLACE: All right, let me bring -- that brings me exactly to what I wanted to ask you, Juan, because it looks like the two frontrunners coming out of here are still likely to be Sanders and Buttigieg. Big electability questions about both of them.

JUAN WILLIAMS : Right.

WALLACE: How -- and Biden's really in -- in a bit of trouble as he heads into Nevada and South Carolina.

How well is this setting up for Mayor Bloomberg coming in March 3rd, Super Tuesday, 40 percent of the delegates from sea to shining sea being -- being voted on?

WILLIAMS: I don't think there's any question, even though he's on the sidelines, Chris, Mayor Bloomberg had a very good week. And I'll tell you why. The centrist lane is opening up for him. Obviously you've heard about the struggles that, you know, that you see Vice President Biden having at this moment. Those struggles mean that people like Mayor Bloomberg, you know, are -- are being sought because people want someone that they can believe can stop a second term for Donald Trump. They're looking for a strong centrist and thinking maybe the centrist there right now is stumbling.

And I think that his ads, his ads have been powerful. And picking up on what Karl said, he is -- he pledged this past week to double down on the existing spending. He's already spent $300 million since November and he's doubling down on that.

Secondly, the DNC rules now allow him into future debates, so he will be on the debate stage. I don't know how charismatic he might be, but he'll be there. So he'll be a player.

And then finally, you have Donald Trump. Donald Trump this week saying, hey, little Mike, he needs a box at the debates, trying to make fun of him. I think that also elevates this idea that maybe President Trump now sees him and his big dollars as a threat.

WALLACE: Well, let me pick up on that with you, Julie.

For all of the president's bluster about Biden and not little Mike, mini Mike, that's --

WILLIAMS: Mini -- mini Mike, thank you.

WALLACE: Yes, mini Mike, who do you get the sense the president and his campaign are most worried about of all the Democrats facing in November?

PACE: There are two candidates that I hear a lot about from -- from Trump advisors. One is Bloomberg. and that is simply -- he is just in their face right now. The president is a big TV watcher. He sees Michael Bloomberg ads. And what they worry about with Bloomberg is not just a head-to-head face-off in the fall, but it's that Bloomberg is committing to spending a tremendous amount of money for whoever the Democratic nominee is. And that's important because Democrats are trailing Trump in -- in -- in money right now.

The other one I hear about a lot is Sanders. You know, the -- the -- the public line about Sanders from Republicans right now is that he's a socialist. There's no way that a socialist can win in this country. But Donald Trump, more than anybody, knows what it is like to run for president and have everyone say you're going to lose, have everyone say there is no path forward for you. And so that worries them. They know that this is a country that is in an unpredictable mood right now, that is in the mood for change. And that doesn't really rule anybody out.

WALLACE: And do they think that perhaps the populace wave that brought Trump in, in 2016, could bring Sanders in, in 2020?

PACE: There's -- there's definitely some overlap. You can -- you can see in some -- some of the supporters, some of those white, working-class supporters who are drawn to the same trade message that Trump has, Bernie has that too, that sort of anti -- anti, you know, free trade message, pull out of the big multilateral deals. They do think that there is the potential that some of those voters that swung from Obama to Trump could swing to a Bernie Sanders.

WALLACE: All right, panel, we have to take a break here. But when we come back, what is President Trump's plan to lead the country post impeachment? We'll get our panel's take when FOX NEWS SUNDAY returns live from Bedford, New Hampshire.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want to apologize to my family for having them have to go through a phony, rotten deal by some very evil and sick people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: President Trump striking back at his critics after acquittal this week in his Senate impeachment trial.

And we're back now with the panel.

Karl, what did you think of President Trump's post impeachment victory lap, going after Democrats, and even Mitt Romney, a Republican, who voted against him? And in a scene, I have to say that reminded me of the end of "The Godfather" when Michael Corleone says, today we take care of all family business, firing not only Colonel Vindman, who had been his national security advisor, and Vindman's twin brother, and also Ambassador Gordon Sondland.

What did you think of all that?

ROVE: Well, first let's take the last item.

The president has a right to have ambassadors and White House staff who he is comfortable with. And Colonel Vindman -- if -- if I were them, the -- the reports are that he was going to leave at the end of February. His tour of duty at the White House ended in July, but it supposedly signaled he wanted to leave at the end of February. I would have left him leave at the end of February. But the president has a right to have staff in whom he has confidence.

I thought it was a very -- Gordon Sondland's statement was a very, I thought, generous statement thanking the present for the opportunity to serve the country. And, again, the president has a right to do that.

I -- the president -- you know, I understand what he's angry, but the American people wanted to hear somebody who said, you know what, it's over and I intend to move on. And I don't think he served his cause well by -- by angrily striking out. We spent more time thinking about Mitt Romney after the president had his -- made his statement than we would have spent anyway. We spent more time looking at, you know, sort of the anger on both sides at each other then we would have. The president had a moment to -- to -- to strike a great, I'm looking forward, which I think would have been good for him politically and good for the country. But I understand it. This is -- this is something he cares deeply about because he feels personally aggrieved about it. I just wish he would have been able to tone a little bit of that down and tone a lot up on let's get going and move forward.

WALLACE: Juan, both aspects of that. First of all, the president lashing out at his critics after the impeachment acquittal and then also the decision to -- to fire a couple of the people who testified against him, and against the edict of the White House and what about the -- Karl's argument, the president has a right to have people he can trust working for him?

WILLIAMS: This is not about trust, Chris, this is about payback. I mean if you thing about Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, this guy is a decorated soldier and, as far as we know, truth teller as confirmed by John Bolton and others who testified before Congress. The president is acting also in defiance of all laws that protect whistleblowers, or people who speak truth about when they see corruption or malfeasance in government. That's the way the laws are constructed.

I think he's going after Vindman, after Sondland, he's denigrating Mitt Romney's faith in order to scare other people into silence in the future. I think, you know, your example of "The Godfather" rang true for me. This is like taking care of business after, you know, going to the mattresses, right?

And so when you look at the Senate and you look at the GOP votes, with the exception of Romney, you can understand why people were reacting the way they did. They're in fear of this guy. He has control of the party, and he has silenced them.

WALLACE: Karl, you want to push back on that?

ROVE: Yes, a little. I love it. A law -- a law was broken. The whistleblower law? I'm not aware of it. Not even the attorney for Vindman made that outrageous suggestion.

The president has a right to have staff whom he has confidence and trust in. He had every right -- Vindman had every right to step forward and say what he did.

But as to being justified and verified by others, he said, I had problems with that conversation. Well, guess what, that conversation, on its face, is not -- is not what the Democrats alleged it was. They alleged there was a quid pro quo in the president never says you've got to do this or I -- or I'm not going to do that. That's ridiculous. So --

WILLIAMS: I think there's no question, Karl, that that call was not perfect, and that's way it was put in a secret server. And that's why you had people go to the -- that director of national intelligence --

ROVE: Well, OK, so, great, we're going to impeach a president for being imperfect. We're going to impeach the president of the United States for not meeting our perfect standards? No, that is exactly why this thing has been so ridiculous.

WILLIAMS: That's -- no perfect standard? When you -- the Senate had -- the -- when you are signed into the United States Senate, you take an oath to uphold and protect the Constitution. And when you see the most powerful man in the land breaking that trust --

WALLACE: OK.

WILLIAMS: And then you close your eyes, something's going on.

WALLACE: All right. Let's turn --

ROVE: Yes, well, I'm not going to question the credibility -- the -- the judgment of people who said, I believe, like Lamar Alexander, it wasn't appropriate but it didn't rise to the level of --

WALLACE: OK.

WILLIAMS: Well, there you go. There you go.

ROVE: (INAUDIBLE) shouldn't question it. You shouldn't question the judgement --

WALLACE: I'm glad the -- I'm glad the acquittal settled everything.

Let's turn to the State of the Union Address, where the president reached out. And here's one particular issue that is going to be a big one in this campaign.

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have also made an iron-clad pledge to American families, we will always protect patients with pre- existing conditions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Dana, after all of the president's efforts to kill Obamacare, he's now part of a lawsuit that would basically end the Affordable Care Act. How big a lift for him to make the case -- and this is going to be a big issue, as you well know, in this campaign, health care -- to make the -- the idea -- the argument that he is the protector of people with pre-existing conditions?

PERINO: Well, he got a little bit of a reprieve because the Supreme Court is not going to decide that decision on Obamacare until after the election. So, actually, you go back to the status quo ante (ph), which would be the 2018 election. And wanted did the Democrats do? They drove forward on pre- existing conditions, like Michael Bloomberg ads everywhere across the country, and they said, the president won't protect you there.

I think that the White House and the administration has to figure out a way to communicate better what they're trying to say about pre-existing conditions. I understand the case, but it's not resonating. It's much easier for Democrat to say he won't protect them.

There is, however, some possibility of a health care compromise, perhaps on lowering drug costs, though the Republicans and Democrats are a bit far apart, the president said he wants to do it. That is a possibility.

But, basically, what happened this week was, if you're like at the Olympic qualifying round in the hurdles, the Democrats tripped on the first one and the president kept running. And he took the State of the Union. And what he decided to do with that momentum going forward will be really interesting. His budget is released tomorrow and no doubt the Democrats will come out swinging.

WALLACE: Because, among other things, he calls for cuts in Medicaid.

Let -- let me ask you, Julie, clearly the president was trying to reach out to some groups that he's had -- constituents he's had trouble with, suburban women, minorities. He really made a big effort.

How confident are they that he can pull that off?

PACE: They're trying. I mean they have the luxury of time and money right now. They don't have a Democratic challenger at the moment, so they can kind of pressure test these different constituencies and see where there is the possibility to make up some ground. And in a really close election, and there's every indication that this one will be a close election, if he can pick off one percentage point, two percentage points among African-American voters in some of these key states, that could be a difference maker.

The group that is most concerning, though, that he has to get back, suburban women. They have fled the Republican Party. It was a disaster for Republicans in 2018, in large part because of suburban women. And they're the ones that look at Trump and worry about tone. They worry about his attacks. They worry about how personal it gets. And that's where you could have all of the ads, you could have all of the -- all of the policy proposals you want, but can President Trump stay on message for ten more months?

WALLACE: So -- so as you were watching his State of the Union with the idea of suburban women, those -- those suburban rings around Philadelphia and other -- other major cities, where they took a drubbing in 2018, what did you see?

PACE: I think that kind of speech is a really good speech for the president in terms of trying to get back those voters, but that's one speech in January -- late -- or in early February. The president is out on Twitter multiple times a day. He is speaking at the White House, sometimes multiple times a day, and that's not often the message that you get.

WALLACE: I got 30 seconds for you, Karl. I -- you've been pushing the idea that this president needs to talk more about an agenda for a second term. He talked about what he's done. He's very good at that. And he said the best is yet to come. Is that enough?

ROVE: No, it's not. And I -- and I got hints in their, prescription jobs, child care, school choice, job training, infrastructure, all those that he touched on. And so I -- I -- my sense is, from talking to them, that they get it. They've got to have a second act.

I'd also point to that ad during the Super Bowl about 2nd chance. That was a powerful ad aimed straight at two groups, the African-American community and suburbanite -- suburbanite woman. And I've got to tell you, I was around Democrat operatives in Iowa watching that ad. That made them very nervous.

WALLACE: Which made you feel very happy.

Thanks, panel, see you next Sunday.

Up next, our "Power Player of the Week." We'll talk to the man now in charge of the world's biggest museum complex about his plan to bring the vast collection into your home.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: The Smithsonian has been called "America's treasure chest." Well, now, its new leader says it's time to share that bounty with the world.

Here's our "Power Player of the Week."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LONNIE BUNCH, SECRETARY OF THE SMITHSONIAN: It's kind of like buying a new car. I know how to drive. I know most of the buttons. Suddenly there are new buttons. So I am like a little kid discovering the Smithsonian every day.

WALLACE (voice over): Lonnie Bunch is talking about his new role of secretary of the Smithsonian.

BUNCH: There is no place that is as full of wonder as the Smithsonian.

WALLACE: He's the first African-American to lead the institution.

BUNCH: Most of my career I viewed myself as an outsider banging on the doors. And then one day I wake up and I'm the quintessential insider. And it meant that suddenly my presence could make a difference.

WALLACE: Bunch now oversees the world's biggest museum complex, 19 museums, nine research centers, and the National Zoo. One hundred and fifty-five million artifacts, iconic objects like the Space Shuttle Discovery, Abraham Lincoln's hat, and Henry, the 11 ton elephant that welcomes visitors to the Museum of Natural History.

BUNCH: I'll find myself walking in the Gem Hall in Natural History and learning the stories behind the Hope Diamond, which I never knew.

WALLACE: Bunch has been a "Power Player" twice before. We first met him in 2012 when he was working to put together the National Museum of African- American History and Culture.

BUNCH: At 8:00 in the morning, I have the best job in America. And at 2:00 in the morning, it's the dumbest thing I've ever done.

WALLACE: In 2016, he gave us an insider tour just days before the museum finally open to the public.

BUNCH: I am humbled, emotional, in fact, I'm very emotional.

WALLACE: The museum has been a huge success. More than 6 million visitors since it opened.

BUNCH: What I love more than anything else is watching grandparents share their stories with their grandchildren. It really has become this source of intergenerational learning that I'm very proud of.

WALLACE: Bunch says that kind of family storytelling sparked his own love of history.

BUNCH: When I was a little kid, my grandfather would read to me. And I remember seeing pictures of sort of African-American schoolchildren. And I was fascinated by that. And I looked at those faces and I said, I want to know, what where their lives like. And I really felt that my job became a desire to sort of make visible those often invisible, and to give voice to the voiceless.

WALLACE: The museum's success led to his new job. Now that Lonnie Bunch is in charge of the whole Smithsonian, he wants to make sure the voiceless are heard around the world.

BUNCH: We'd like to reach a billion people. And we'd like to do that over the next decade.

WALLACE: So a billion people online can go and see America's treasure chest?

BUNCH: That's the goal. You know, as they say in Chicago, make no little plans.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: And now this program note, tune in to Fox News Channel over the next three days for special coverage of New Hampshire's first in the nation primary, which could have a big effect on the race for the Democratic nomination.

But that's it for today. Have a great week and we'll see you back in Washington next FOX NEWS SUNDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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