'Kelly File' special: The Lone Wolf
{{#rendered}} {{/rendered}}This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," July 17, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
JENNA LEE, GUEST HOST: And breaking tonight, U.S. Marines murdered at home and a nation on edge as we are learning new details in the terror investigation into a Muslim American. And tonight, we take a closer look at a growing and determined enemy that is attacking America from within.
Welcome to a "Kelly File" Special" Lone Wolf. I'm Jenna Lee in for Megyn Kelly tonight. And right now the country is on alert after a 24 year old fatally attacked soldiers, Marines and police in Chattanooga, Tennessee.
{{#rendered}} {{/rendered}}Tonight, we dig deep into the background of Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez, a Kuwaiti borne U.S. citizen. We now know he spent time in the Middle East before returning home killing four Marines and injuring three others. He was armed with an AK-47 wearing a tactical vest packed with extra ammunition. And less than two weeks ago, the President made a rare visit to the Pentagon, he was briefed on the campaign against ISIS and that meeting coming after repeated warnings of ISIS inspired attacks over the Fourth of July. The President addressed the threat of home grown terrorists.
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PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: But the threat of lone wolves or small cells of terrorist is complex. It's harder to detect and harder to prevent, it's one of the most difficult challenges that we face and preventing these kinds of attacks on American soil will going to require sustained effort.
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LEE: Also this month, the director of the FBI James Comey announcing that in the four to six weeks leading up to July 4th, the FBI arrested more than ten ISIS followers. And in an ominous warning, Director Comey said the FBI could not stop them all.
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{{#rendered}} {{/rendered}}JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: We are stopping these things so far through tremendous hard work. The use of sources, the use of online undercovers, but it is incredibly difficult. Right? I cannot see me stopping these indefinitely.
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LEE: A lot of the motivation behind the Chattanooga attacks is still unclear at this time. The threat from lone wolf terrorists is not. It pre-dates ISIS and may be growing. Since the rise of the Islamic State, there had been 11 ISIS inspired plot against the U.S. More than 60 individuals in 19 states have been arrested. Congressman Michael McCaul, chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee says the enemy is different and new.
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REP. MICHAEL MCCAU, R-TEXAS: This is not Bin Laden in caves with couriers anymore. This is what the new threat of terrorism looks like. And it comes from the internet. They don't have to travel to Syria and Iraq. They are already here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
{{#rendered}} {{/rendered}}LEE: The context matters. Tonight, we take a closer look at the threat of lone wolf terrorists. Over the last seven years, there have been more than 50 domestic terror attacks or foiled plots and that is nearly one every 50 days. While many have been stopped early, a growing number are making headlines starting back in 2009.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this time the numbers that we are looking at are 12 dead and 31 wounded.
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LEE: We remember that November in 2009 Ford Hood, Texas, U.S. Army Major Nidal Hasan opening fire in fellow soldiers, in the end he killed 13 people, injured more than 30 others. He was communicating with a terrorist mastermind Anwar al-Awlaki.
We remember April, 2013 as well, Boston, the Tsarnaev brothers, one a U.S. citizen, one not. Blowing up shrapnel pot pressure cookers at the crowded finish line at the Boston marathon killing three people, injuring nearly 300.
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MEGYN KELLY, HOST: So, he got to you and what happened next?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He started slicing my neck.
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LEE: And that's Megyn Kelly speaking to the survivor of an attempted beheading in Moore, Oklahoma September of last year. An ex-con believed to have converted in prison displaying an obsession with radical Islam allegedly attacking his co-workers while shouting in Arabic beheading one and attempting to behead another.
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{{#rendered}} {{/rendered}}UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get back. Go in the building.
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LEE: And this June, Garland, Texas, two heavily armed men wearing body armor storming an event holding a contest to draw a picture of the Prophet Mohammad. One brave police officer stopped them. And that brings us to today.
{{#rendered}} {{/rendered}}Our chief intelligence correspondent Catherine Herridge is live in Washington with the latest -- Catherine.
CATHERINE HERRIDGE, FOX NEWS CHIEF INTELLIGENCE CORRESPONDENT: Jenna, tonight, the investigation is expanding on two fronts. First dozens of tips are pouring in with the lead FBI investigator on the scene indicating law enforcement to take action locally and in other states. And while no one else is publically tied to Mohammod Youssuf Abdulazeez's plot the press conference this afternoon suggested investigators are exploring whether others could be in play.
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{{#rendered}} {{/rendered}}EDWARD REINHOLD, FBI SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: We have covered approximately 70 leads and as our team continues to develop additional information you may see or hear about FBI activity in other areas of the state and nation.
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HERRIDGE: FOX News also confirming counterterrorism investigators are scrutinizing the shooting suspects travelled to the Middle East last year including at least one trip to Jordan and reportedly a possible trip to Yemen. Significantly investigators are reaching out to foreign intelligence agencies tonight just as they did after the Boston bombing in 2013 to flesh out the suspect's travel history and network of contacts.
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REINHOLD: We are exploring all travel that he has done and we have asked our intelligence partners throughout the world to provide us with any information they may have concerning his travel and/or activities while overseas.
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{{#rendered}} {{/rendered}}HERRIDGE: Also tonight, we are learning more about the weapons the republican chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee Mike McCaul who has been briefed says, Abdulazeez had an AK-47 and the FBI says, also two long guns, a handgun and a load bearing vest for multiple rounds of ammunition -- Jenna.
LEE: Chilling. Katherine, thank you very much.
HERRIDGE: You're welcome.
{{#rendered}} {{/rendered}}LEE: Yesterday's attack in Chattanooga highlights the danger of what some refer to as self-radicalization.
Morten Storm is a former Danish gangster who turned to radical Islam and ended up joining al Qaeda in Yemen before changing course and becoming a CIA informant. He's also author of the book "Agent Storm." We are also joined by Brad Thor. A security analyst and author of "Code of Conducts." It's great to have you both on the program. Brad, let me start with you. We heard a lot of sound from a lot of different leaders of our country. And we hear the same sort of tone. We can't stop them all when it comes to the lone wolf. Why not?
BRAD THOR, SECURITY ANALYST: Well, first of all, Jenna, I'm not a big fan of the term lone wolf. I mean, how many lone wolves does it take to make a pack? You're seeing this thing. You went through the whole list starting with Fort Hood through the Boston bombers granted there were the two Tsarnaev brothers. But these guys are not self-radicalizing. The internet is a global community. They are finding like-minded people out there who are encouraging them to go to this, not even radical but fundamentalist interpretation of Islam. And this nation is not able to counter that threat unless we are ready to counter the ideology.
{{#rendered}} {{/rendered}}LEE: And how do we do that, Morten?
MORTEN STORM, FORMER CIA SPY AGAINST AL QAEDA: Well, at the end of the days, as you say, we have to find out what websites they are getting information from and, you know, they have to be tracked. It is very difficult when you say that, you know, it's lone wolf. There aren't many people out there because they know that authority are watching them. That they will not be a part of such communities or networking, so they would actively just get that information by themselves secretly and actually be able to carry out the attacks for the possibilities of being successful.
LEE: And so that brings up what James Comey said Brad which is, if they are in their basements and they're not communicating with anybody then there is no way really to know where they are and when they are going to strike, next. But that already sets us up for failure of not being able to get that guy in the basement. So, how do we get him?
{{#rendered}} {{/rendered}}THOR: Comey is right. These things, what happened in Chattanooga, this man's family may not even known that he intended to do this. That was not necessarily preventable. But we need to combat that ideology. In fact, I find it almost comical that the administration wants to use the term lone wolf when they know and the intelligence agencies know and the Pentagon knows that ISIS has told these guys, their sympathizers, don't go online, don't coordinate with other people, think globally but act locally. Because they've learned Al Qaeda's lessons.
Al Qaeda's sympathizers get busted by the FBI all the time in sting operations, because they go look for help on the internet. ISIS is moving them to encrypted apps for phones and other chat rooms and things like that in saying, keep it quiet, blend in. Try not to even look Muslim. Don't grow your beard long. Don't carry a Koran. ISIS is extremely sophisticated and these attacks are going to continue and we are going to see a lot more of them until we take the fight directly to ISIS, we start killing as many of them as possible, and we combat the ideology.
LEE: Okay. So, that is the big question. Morten, I'm curious your thoughts on that. Because one of the other things we continue to hear is this is a new enemy. We've never faced this enemy before. But you -- you actually joined al Qaeda. You know the enemy from the inside. So, how do we get more aggressive?
{{#rendered}} {{/rendered}}STORM: Well, it seems like they are getting more organized and they are getting more sophisticated with the media propaganda. It is something that did not exist during my time. Not at the label. And that is something that really encourage the people and also seeing upcoming of ISIS, the creating that Islamic State. We do not have that in the time of when I used to operate as a double agent. It's coming now and it's there to stay if we don't find it. And it only encourages so many other people to join them because they look so powerful.
LEE: Well, and that brings us back to the ideology and your first point Brad, that you have to go after the ideology. And this is one of numerous conversations that we have had on this topic, so many years of talking about the ideology that fuels these attacks. What is the ideology that drives them and how do we counter it?
THOR: Well, let's stop saying that these guys misunderstand Islam. Okay? This is an electrical engineering degree. We have seen high levels of sophistication in many of these terrorists attackers. So let's stop playing the game that they just don't understand. This is a fundamentalist interpretation. I'd even argue that If Mohammad came back and passed out trophies for those best practicing Islam, guys in ISIS would be at the top of the podium. We need good moderate Muslims to allying with us. And I'd say instead of chasing people like the Tea Party or the EPA going after farmers for pottles, let's have an agency devoted to combatting fundamentalist Islamic ideology.
{{#rendered}} {{/rendered}}LEE: Another agency though, Brad? Another agency? Do we need another agency?
THOR: Jenna, you ask your husband, a Navy SEAL, we should be putting money into combatting this ideology because this stateless terror is going to be with us for generations. And if we don't stick it to them they are going to stick it to us.
LEE: Plenty of people that say, we don't need another agency, we just need to let the guys go out there and take care of business.
{{#rendered}} {{/rendered}}THOR: Well, that too. Somebody is going to develop the Intel and work on the good Muslims to help us though develop that Intel.
LEE: Morten, Brad, great to have you both. Thank you very much. An important conversation indeed. And much more on this. There is also angry fallout today after presidential candidate Bobby Jindal suggest that Liberals share some of the blame for what happened in Tennessee. The Governor joins us next.
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{{#rendered}} {{/rendered}}JONATHAN ALLEN, VOX CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: You do hear these candidates showing that they can act presidentially in a moment like this with the one exception today of Bobby Jindal who used the moment to attack the President of the United States for what he said was failing to take on the challenge of radical Islam.
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LEE: This week's lone wolf attack has brought the issue of domestic terror to the forefront of the 2016 election with many republican contenders challenging the President's response. Among them Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal who said this, quote, "The shooting underscores the grave reality of the threat posed to us by radical Islamic terrorism every single day. It's time for the White House to wake up and tell the truth. And the truth is, radical Islam is at war with us. And we must start by being honest about that. This is grotesque. You cannot defeat evil until you admit that it exists," end-quote. People didn't like that. Critics wasted no time jumping on the republican contender.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why would Bobby Jindal make such a stride and such an overtly political statement at a time like this? And honestly, what I come back to is politics, what is the political calculation? I look at and say, Bobby Jindal right now is fighting to get in one of those ten spots in the republican presidential debate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's looking to distinguish himself from the rest of the republican field. I think he has in a way that's sadly very unpresidential. But I think he's making a play for religious bigotry as an attempt to get to that two, three, four, five percent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEE: Joining me now Governor of Louisiana, in 2016, republican candidate Bobby Jindal. So, you heard the critics, politically calculated unpresidential. Why do you believe they are wrong?
GOV. BOBBY JINDAL, R-2016 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Jenna, look, the Left always goes crazy whenever we tell the truth. The reality is, we need a president who will stop being politically correct. After the Fort Hood shooting to this day, the Obama administration calls it an instance of work place violence. That is ridiculous. This is evil. We're fighting radical Islam. We need a president who will say this. Not only does Islam have a problem, that problem is radical Islam, he needs to say to Muslim leaders they have to do more than condemn generic acts of violence. They need to condemn the individual murders. Said they are not murders. We're going to enjoy a reward in the afterlife.
We have to get serious about this was. We have to hunt them down and kill them. The second thing this President has got to do, he went to the Pentagon, you may remember Jenna, he went there and said, this is a generational conflict, we're going to win this by changing their hearts and minds. The same when they announced the cut of 40,000 troops in the size of the army. Jenna, look, if General Patton and ICE now said, we are going to win World War II through propaganda, speaking German right now, we are not going to win this war just with words and propaganda. We have to win this war with guns. We have to hunt them down and kill them and --
LEE: Let's talk solutions.
JINDAL: And third --
LEE: Let me stop you there. Let's talk solutions because one of the things you saw at the beginning of the show it has been very confusing for many to define the ideology that drives this terrorism. So, in your opinion, what drives this ideology and how do you combat it?
JINDAL: Well, look, in terms of practically combat it, one of the things the President can do today, he also talks about the power of the pen and the phone. He can actually go out today and allow our military, our men and women to be armed. It is ridiculous to require them to be in his gun free zones. Just like sending a firearm out there without hose. Let them protect themselves. We should have done that certainly before.
LEE: That doesn't necessarily take care of the ideology, again being so difficult to articulate it. So, just giving weapons if that is what happens, to the military installations doesn't solve the fundamental issue.
JINDAL: No, you are right. Jenna, look, the fundamental problem is we are dealing with evil, we are dealing with radical Islam, we're dealing with the individuals who don't want others to have the same freedoms they demand for themselves, they don't accept religious liberty or other freedoms rather, people with different beliefs or different faiths. You are talking about terrorists who are murdering, raping, beheading innocence across the Middle East including Christians and other Muslims and religious minorities. They are not content to do that overseas. They want to do that here in America. We have to kill them over there. This president talks about containing them or degrading them. We need to hunt them down and kill them. We need to take political handcuffs off the Pentagon, go to the military planners and say, we want to defeat and wipe out this enemy. Stop this incremental approach.
LEE: Okay, let me ask you, this Department of Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson had something to say in May about his strategy to combatting terror. I want to get your thoughts on it. Let's going to play this down.
JINDAL: Sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEH JOHNSON, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: It has to come from within the community, it has to come from Islamic leaders who frankly can talk the language better than the federal government can.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEE: Secretary Johnson says there are those out there that can do this better than the federal government. How would you engage the Muslim- American community here in the United States? Is that part of your solution, your plan?
JINDAL: Oh, absolutely. Now, that's not instead of the military force. And that's what -- about the President's comments, saying, we are not going to win this with guns. But secondly, absolutely as commander-in-chief, if you feel stopping politically correct and say directly to Muslim leaders.
Look, Islam has got a problem. This president seems to bend over backwards to want to avoid saying that. He won't say the words radical Islamic terrorism. He is always afraid of offending everybody rather than doing his job. So, absolutely the commander-in-chief can go to those Muslim leaders and say, they have an obligation to denounce these murders. Say that these is not the way. Until they do. Until they make clear that within Islam it is not acceptable for these murders to feel like they're going to be martyrs and they need to make clear, they are not going to rewarded in the afterlife rather they're going to straight to hell where they belong, I think the commander-in-chief can put pressure on clerics and other Muslim leaders to specifically denounce not generic acts of violence but individual by name.
LEE: You said, it's -- for one of our next segments. Governor, nice to have you in the program. Thank you.
JINDAL: Thank you, Jenna.
LEE: Well, Governor Jindal thinks that Liberals may share some of this blame others are focusing on what the role the Muslim community has in preventing tragedy like this. Two leading Muslim voices join us next.
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BRIAN KILLIAN, U.S. ATTORNEY: We will continue to investigate it as an act of terrorism until the proof shows us otherwise.
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JINDAL: Not only does Islam have a problem, that problem is radical Islam, he needs to say to Muslim leaders they have to do more than condemn generic acts of violence. They need to condemn the individual murders who said they are not martyrs who are going to enjoy a reward in the afterlife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEE: That was Governor Bobby Jindal moments ago suggesting to "The Kelly File" that people need to start telling the truth about Islam in his opinion. And applying that the faith itself is to blame for incidents like the shooting in Chattanooga this week. And while no direct link at this time has been established between this shooter and Islamic extremists directly one D.C. based Imam admits this, saying, quote, "It will probably be that he has done this in the name of some radical Muslim group and that puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the community."
Dr. Qanta Ahmed, is author of "In The Land of Invisible Women." Qasim Rashid is a national spokesperson for the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community USA. It's nice to have you both on the program.
DR. QANTA AHMED, AUTHOR, "IN THE LAND OF INVISIBLE WOMEN": Thank you.
QASIM RASHID, AHMADIYYA MUSLIM COMMUNITY USA: Thanks for having us.
LEE: Let's continue to talk about solutions. Doctor, first to you. What a concrete measures can be taken within the Muslim community to prevent violence being waged in the name of Islam?
AHMED: I think it is a time for Muslims to respond by one of our fundamental duties which is our duties to society. Muslims have duty to themselves, to their maker but also to their society. And this is a role not just for Muslim leadership but individual Muslims in America. All four million of us. We have to participate in exposing these extreme behaviors which I term Islamism. They are not Islam but they are hiding amongst us, they are being veiled by us. And we must expose them. It's not a matter only for the leadership. We know from British Muslim parents whose children have become radicalized. That there is bedroom radicalization. British, Muslim parents have advocated for this. American Muslim parents having hearings which I participated two years ago. So, this is a role for all Muslims to be aware and inform and to relate to authorities. We also need a tremendous expansion on surveillance of places where Muslims gather.
LEE: I'm curious what caused them to think about that. What do you think is part of the solution?
RASHID: Well, you know, I represent the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, and as Muslims believe in the messiah (INAUDIBLE), we have established ourselves in over 200 countries worldwide through peace, through dialogue, through service, through humanity. And the bottom-line is that leadership matters. Under the leadership of his holiness, the Khalifa of Islam, the head of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, we have demonstrated how by engaging in service to humanity, we not only combat all forms of radicalization. And that's the key element here, radicalization is not a Muslim issue. Dylann Roof was not a Muslim but he killed nine innocent black people. The person who --
LEE: Do you think it's the same thing? Do you think it's the same thing Qasim? Do you think it's the same thing?
RASHID: My point is that radicalization is not a religious issue, it's a human issue. And the way to combat that radicalization is to stand united against all forms of extremism. His holiness, the Khalifa of Islam has demonstrated that. This is why throughout our 125-year history, we have tens of millions of members and not a single act of terrorism even once. Dogmatic and religious differences aside, this is a model we can all learn from. And this is the --
LEE: Well, Doctor, do you think to Qasim's point, is Islam being unfairly blamed for this?
AHMED: I would say that that is true but I also would contest that we cannot rely only on Muslim leadership. As individual Muslims, we have specific roles to play whether that is in our community, whether we are mentors in schools, whether we write our pads, whether we lobby our politicians in power, authorities in this country to shed political correctness and it actually examines Islamism. These acts saw what can be called radical Islam or Islamism. They are not my faith, they are not the faith of Qasim, but they are emerging from within the Muslim community. And there is no escaping that now. We have to really expose this problems and it will be unpleasant. It will be difficult.
LEE: So, how exactly Doctor? I mean, how do you do what you are saying? Practically speaking --
AHMED: One of the measures is encouraging people in authority to not shy away from actually all of the factors that lead to radicalization which could be violent or nonviolent. Islamism is an ideology that submerged from 20th Century Egypt. It is pedaled as a (INAUDIBLE) and many Muslims, young, privileged, poor, Muslims that met within the northwest country in Pakistan, all Muslims here in the United States are seduced into believing this is a faith. We are combatting an ideology.
LEE: Well, and so Qasim going back to your point in saying that there are thousands, millions of Muslims that of course do not turn to violence, what advice would you give our leaders in this specific country to deal with the radicalization within the specific Islam community that it is happening?
RASHID: Well, I think ultimately we agree that this is combatting an ideology of extremism. And rather than giving some hypothetical solution, what I'm providing you, what I'm offering you is the world's single largest Muslim sect, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, the united under one Imam the Khalifa, and under his leadership following his example showing how together we cannot only train our youth to reject all forms of extremism but become pro-active members of humanity, to serve society. We don't need to have surveillance on every individual human being. We need to work on giving our youth an identity and ownership over serving their fellow brother and their fellow sister. This is life across 200 nations we've combatted radicalism successfully for over a century --
LEE: The record that you suggest is successful. Those numbers are true which we have no reason to doubt then we look forward to having you back to talk specifically about what actually is working within your community because obviously it is. And this particular instance. It is nice to have you both on. Thank you very much.
AHMED: Pleasure.
LEE: Coming up, the White House weighs in on Thursday's tragedy in Tennessee. What the President said and also importantly what he didn't. When Marc Thiessen and Richard Fowler join us next.
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JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I know that the FBI made clear yesterday that they are looking at a variety of possible motives including the possibility of domestic terrorism. (END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: I'm Trace Gallagher, Los Angeles.
We are watching chaos in San Bernardino County Interstate 15, the main artery from Las Vegas to Southern California, shut down because of a wildfire burned across the freeway, igniting or exploding at least 18 vehicles. We're talking cars, boats, big rigs. People were told to get out of their cars and run for their lives. The freeway fire is now mostly out, but 100 or so vehicles are burned and abandoned and it will take hours to reopen the southbound lanes. Two of the northbound lanes have reopened but traffic is backed up for 20 miles. No serious injuries, but thousands appear to be stranded. The fire has gone from 500 acres to 3,500 acres in just the past two hours, the very definition of spreading like wildfire. Five homes have burned, dozens are threatened. Mandatory evacuations are underway. High winds, hot temperatures, updates throughout the night.
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OBAMA: I just received a briefing from FBI Director Comey as well as my White House team about the tragic shooting that took place in Chattanooga today. We don't know yet all of the details. We know that what appears to be a lone gunman, carried out these attacks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEE: President Obama commenting on the shootings in Tennessee, but it's what the president hasn't said about the attacks that has some critics. Questioning whether the administration is taking a strong enough position on lone wolf attacks here at home, joining me now Former Presidential Speechwriter and Fox News Contributor Marc Thiessen and National Syndicated Radio Host Richard Fowler. Nobody surprise Marc, due have some issues with how the president spoke the other day. What are they?
MARC THIESSEN, FORMER CHIEF PRESIDENTIAL SPEECHWRITER: Well, I mean, he didn't call it terrorism. In fact, to this day, he still has not called this an act of terror. I mean today, at -- in Chattanooga, the U.S. attorney said I'm going to read you what he said, "The situation is being treated as a terrorist investigation. It is being led by FBI's joint terrorism task force and we will continue to investigate as an act of terrorism until proved show us otherwise." Why can't President Obama say that? If the FBI.
LEE: Let's ask Richard.
THIESSEN: Is treating this.
LEE: Let's ask Richard.
THIESSEN: As an act of terror, why can't the president?
LEE: What can, Richard? Why not?
RICHARD FOWLER, NATIONALLY SYNDICATED RADIO HOST: I mean, here's the thing and this is where I disagree with Marc. I think this is an act of terror. I think you know the FBI is treating it as an act of terror. They're investigating as an act of terror. What is the difference if the president says this is an act of terror or not? I think that's really the larger question.
(CROSSTALK)
LEE: What do you think about that? What difference does it make somebody said it in government, so president, who cares? That's what Richard said.
THIESSEN: So the president's words don't matter? I mean, this is -- the problem is here, this is a part of a pattern. This is part of a pattern. The Fort Hood shooting was workplace violence. The Christmas Day bomber was an isolated extremist. Benghazi was because of an internet video, ISIS and the J.V. team. The co -- attack on a Kosher Deli was random violence. This president cannot bring himself to identify terrorism as terrorism.
FOWLER: I.
LEE: Richard.
FOWLER: Marc, Marc.
LEE: Richard, let me ask you about -- let me ask you about the leadership part of it, Richard. Anybody can say it, but when the president does say it, it means something. Especially, if it is a terrorist attack on our soil, why not lead? I mean, you're right. Anybody can say it, but why not the president?
FOWLER: I mean, when you think of levels, severity of terrorist attacks, right? You see what happened in 9/11 that was a terrorist attack. And our country responded appropriately. These lone wolf attacks are awful and we have to do something in our country, to sort of restrict. And that's gonna be hard to do because we live in a free society where people can get on YouTube and self radicalize. But her in lies the problem, you know where I disagree with Marc. I think you can talk about the president's words all you want, but I like to talk about actions. Since the president is taking - - since it has been the president for the past five years drone attacks have destroyed.
LEE: OK. We were not talking drone attacks.
FOWLER: Have killed 2,400 terrorism -- terrorists.
LEE: We are talking a terror attack that happened here.
FOWLER: And he killed Osama bin Laden.
LEE: They're different, Richard. We're talking about an attack that happened here.
FOWLER: What's difference it all.
LEE: And the thing is investigated.
FOWLER: It's all radical Islam.
LEE: I think it -- well, if he's willing. If the president is willing to call that terror overseas, why not call this terror where it's really.
FOWLER: You're talking about words.
LEE: It's happening in Americans.
THIESSEN: And action is what matters.
LEE: So where is that actions that matter?
THIESSEN: I agree with Richard and action is matter.
LEE: Where are the actions?
THIESSEN: I agree with Richard that actions matter.
FOWLER: And these people.
THIESSEN: And you know what the problem is? The president's actions don't match his words. I mean, we have been talking about gun-free zones. For our troops on the ground, Iraq is a gun-free zone. They are not allowed to shot terrorists.
LEE: OK. Well, let me -- OK.
THIESSEN: And the result of that is -- I mean, the result of.
LEE: Let's -- so let's talk about solutions, though. Quite frankly, if we look over the last several decades where we had the confronting terrorism on our soil, we can look at the past and wonder how it is setting precedent. We still have this issue. So neither side has come up with a solution, and that's pretty frustrating for the American people. Why not -- where are the new ideas on this? Let's leave the president aside. Where are the new ideas, Richard?
FOWLER: No, I think that's a good question, Jenna Lee and I think that's a question for our congress and our leadership. Where are the new ideas, but we can't say whether we like it or not. And since 9/11 we have not seen such a terrorist attack on this country, on the soil. But everything to do with George Bush putting some steps in place and Barack Obama following a lot of those steps, including drone warfare in all across the Middle East. So I think and the country we've got to find a way to deal with it. We've got to find a way to deal with radical Islam.
LEE: Why is it taking so long?
FOWLER: By calling it terrorism doesn't necessarily solve the problem.
LEE: Well, it does -- here's why it does matter. You know Richard, that words matter. And Marc, you know it too that it does matter because it seems that -- and I'm even coming on the air as a critic of media, as well. We don't get on the air. We are all really sad about this. We're heartbroken for the loss, we're heartfelt. There is very little allowance to be angry, enraged and bring the fight to the enemy, right, to really go after the problem from any leadership. Where is the leadership on it Marc?
THIESSEN: But you're right. We have to go after we take the fight to the enemy. The problem is you cannot defend in all places against every possible technique.
LEE: Do you really believe that?
THIESSEN: It's the only way you can stop them.
LEE: Do you really believed that? I mean, we are the United States of America.
THIESSEN: Of course.
LEE: Or you are setting yourselves up for failure.
THIESSEN: Yes, you can. It's a fact.
LEE: And you were saying.
THIESSEN: No. We're not setting up for failure.
LEE: That we can't do it, that we should just all go home, right?
THIESSEN: No, I doubt. Let me tell you what the solution is, Jenna. You - the way you stop them here is by defeating them over there. And the problem is we are not defeating them over there right now. We have been bombing ISIS in Iraq for months and they are not only still standing, they are advancing. They appear to be.
FOWLER: Marc.
THIESSEN: Strong horse.
LEE: Richard.
FOWLER: We have seen an increase in this lone wolf attacks after we saw the destabilization of Iraq, which happened after.
THIESSEN: Or you walked? You have it on map?
FOWLER: That's the truth. That's why ISIS was created. It was because of Al Maliki government that was.
LEE: I don't know.
(CROSSTALK)
FOWLER: By the U.S. withdrawal from Iraq.
LEE: Then.
FOWLER: They were defeated in Iraq.
THIESSEN: No, I'd look at.
(CROSSTALK)
LEE: Here is my problem, right. We can't even agree.
FOWLER: Way before that.
LEE: We can't even agree Richard and Marc, about what actually is the cause of the issue. Said -- at least it's pretty pessimistic about, trying to make it figure out.
FOWLER: (inaudible).
LEE: It does, it does. I don't know.
FOWLER: But it's true.
LEE: Marc?
THIESSEN: The way.
LEE: Richard?
THIESSEN: The way you turn off the spigot is by taking away their caliphate. There will be no -- not so many lone wolf terrorists.
FOWLER: Awesome. That's how our.
(CROSSTALK)
LEE: Richard.
FOWLER: And our dependency on foreign oil. We wouldn't be able.
LEE: We take it as web. We'll have to make for another show on that. Richard, Marc, great to have you both. Thank you.
THIESSEN: Thank you.
FOWLER: Thanks.
LEE: The deadly Tennessee terrorist attack is just the latest lone wolf attack on American soil. Do you like that term lone wolf? Is it worked for you?
Up next, the terrorism (inaudible) who weighs in on whether this is the new normal for America.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAUL: If it can happen in Chattanooga, Tennessee, it can happen anywhere, and the stats prove this. Over the last year, we have had over 60 ISIS-related arrests in the United States. That's more than one ISIS follower arrested in this country, more than one per week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEE: Representative Michael McCaul commenting on the deadly attack on two military facilities in Tennessee. The lone wolf attack, as it is being called is now prompting new questions about our security at home and whether this is the new normal in America, and if America could now be compared to Israel. Brian Jenkins is a terrorist analyst and senior advisor to the Iran president. And Aaron Cohen is a former member of Israel's counterterrorism unit and author of Brotherhood of Warriors: Behind Enemy Lines with a Commando in One of the World Most Elite Counterterrorism Units. It's nice to have you both on this important topic. Aaron, what can we learn from Israel?
AARON COHEN, FORMER MEMBER, ISRAEL'S COUNTER-TERROR UNIT: Well, I think what we can learn from Israel is that the most important thing is to look at the threat for what it really is. And we have learned that when it comes to terrorism you have to constantly be changing your security. There is no like right or wrong way to do it. It constantly involves. It's an organic approach to total safety or what you are going for which is total safety.
In this case, I think the Israeli lesson is ISIS is a master of branding. They are using the internet to say when a celebrity would use the internet to create a brand, which ultimately enables the internet to become an extremely efficient recruiting tool. You don't need to go through Turkey into Syria to get an order in Iraq to get training. We now have millions of potential followers who went tweeted at, can go get a weapon and open fire.
LEE: So that's.
COHEN: So the second lesson would be.
LEE: Go ahead.
COHEN: Getting -- making sure that our military has the appropriate safe guards in place. Whether it means arming them and making sure they are trained when they are not overseas operating.
LEE: Catch up (ph).
COHEN: And that's how making sure they have the ability to be able to present themselves.
LEE: And brain, that's what we are hearing from lawmakers that we can expect something, next week, on whether that policy would change. We are also hearing from other leaders, as well. As to whether or not this policy is not allowing a military men and women to be armed is the right one. But here is the broader question because Aaron brings together two points. When will these attacks happen? We either turn our conversation about gun reform, which means we either carry more weapons or we turn less weapons or religious reform? Or we have to focus on ideology. What do you think is the most important? What should be the priority?
BRIAN JENKINS, TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, look, first of all, let's keeps the threat in perspective. I mean, in contemporary conflict, the adversaries we confront make no distinction between the Frontline and the Homefront. No distinction between combatants and non-combatants. And therefore, everything -- everywhere is a potential target, that's the reality. We have been a largely successful in this country in dealing with that. Out of more than 50 jihadist terrorist plots since 9/11, the authorities have uncovered and thwarted all but a handful. Now, as a consequence of that handful, we are now looking after Chattanooga at more than 20 deaths over this 14, 15- year period. All of those tragic, all of those related to the conflict that we are in, but that are a good success story.
LEE: So status quo.
(CROSSTALK)
LEE: I mean, Brian, you bring up a fair point and context for it, but in your opinion is the status quo is our current policy good enough?
JENKINS: The status quo is never going to be appropriate. We are dealing with a dynamic situation. The threat is constantly evolving. And as the gentleman from the IDS says, our tactics have to evolve with that. So status quo is a way of losing.
(CROSSTALK)
LEE: And let me ask Aaron on that.
JENKINS: It has to be dynamic.
LEE: I m sure you can because when you walk around Israel, you see IDS carrying weapons around the streets. And you understand that as someone that is in Israel, you feel from Israelis that they know that they are targets. But you don't feel paranoid walking around the streets. You don't feel that way. You actually feel very safe. So how do we establish that in the United States? Is the priority making sure our military men and women have weapons? Could that be number one? Or do we look for a different priority?
COHEN: Jenna, those are excellent points. Israel, you are very safe, the reason why our soldiers are afforded the privilege of being to carry their weapons to and from to their bases because it acts as a deterrent. Having said that, I think the one -- the most important thing is to really just call these lone wolves what it is. They are ISIS. This is the tactic. The internet, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, the same way it works for everyone else is working for ISIS; Two, if we can allow our soldiers to be able to carry arms and operate and Fort Hood operating areas going after America's enemies overseas, they are more than capable of being able to be armed while in uniform here in this country. I don't think it means reforming gun laws, I think it means (inaudible) in the Department of Defense into local counties states, and making sure that the training for active shooter, and again.
LEE: Sure.
COHEN: It was a very specific to training for what happened today at the recruiting (inaudible) that base. That was active shooter who went to a specific place for a specific reason, to kill a specific type of person. That was a military target. So then he said the active shooter training combine with the appropriate level of escalation, the escalation training (inaudible).
LEE: Understood.
COHEN: Law enforcement.
LEE: Understood.
COHEN: And let's get the weapons in there. It's not a big deal. We should be.
LEE: But to your point, as our military received some of the best weapons training in the world. So we'll see if we actually get movement on a change in policy. Gentlemen, we're gonna have to leave it there. Brian and Aaron, great to have you both, thank you.
This is not the first time a recruiting center has come under attack, and there are more than 100 others out there with no security to speak of or very little. That's part of our next story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARRETT REED, LONG-TIME FRIEND OF CHATTANOOGA MARINE: Why somebody would take innocent lives for no reason regardless whatever his motive is, regardless if it was some kind of religious belief of some sort or whatever the case maybe. Taking a life, you know, it's just you got to have -- you don't have a heart when you do something like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEE: That was a long-time friend of one of the four Marines who died defending their country on Thursday, sadly on their own soil. And while their families, friends, and communities mourn the loss of these remarkable men. We're not only learning more about the incredible lives that they led and why they were unable to defend themselves. When confronting with the unthinkable. National Security Correspondent Jennifer Griffin has more.
JENNIFER GRIFFIN, NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Jenna, they were all members of mike battery 3rd battalion 14th Marines, a legendary artillery unit, Lance Corporal Squire "Skip" Wells, Gunnery Sergeant Thomas Sullivan, Staff Sergeant David Wyatt, and Sergeant Carson Holmquist. Wells was the youngest. He was 21, graduated from high school in Marietta, Georgia in 2012. His mom was a single mother and drove the school bus. He played the clarinet in the school marching band, and also was a member of the orchestra at his church. He arrived on Sunday for a two week reserve assignment. The last text he sent his girlfriend read, active shooter.
Sergeant Holmquist lived Jacksonville, North Carolina with his wife, Jasmine and two-year-old Wyatt. He was the battery motor transport chief. He returned from lengthy tour in Afghanistan last July.
Staff Sergeant David Wyatt lived in Hixson, Tennessee, not far from the shooter's home with his wife Lorri and their two children. He served in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
Gunnery Sullivan was 40-year old from Springfield, Massachusetts. He joined the Marines in 1997. He graduated from Cathedral High School. He had two siblings and returned from his last deployment in January. He fought in the 2005 Battle of Abu Ghraib where he earned a combat action ribbon. He received two purple hearts.
The Marines were not killed at the recruiting center which is has a quote, "No-gun zone." And always has been, according to Army Chief General Ray Odierno. Who warned today against hastily arming installations and recruiting centers which are typically in shopping malls, quote, "We have to be careful about over arming ourselves, I'm not talking about attacking each other, but things like accidental discharges and everything else that goes along with having weapons that are loaded, that can cause injuries." Meanwhile, Defense Secretary Ash Carter ordered enhanced force protection in the wake of the shooting and has asked for recommendations from his service chiefs about how to further protect service members by the end of next week. Late today, Oklahoma Governor Mary Fallin authorized fulltime service members, to arm themselves at military installations in her state, like the reserved center attack Thursday. The navy has 123 of these reserve centers across the U.S., all of them soft targets right now, Jenna.
LEE: Jennifer, thank you. And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEE: How many lone wolves does it take to make a pack? A key question by Security Analyst Brad Thor and a key question for all of us today, tell us what you think. Go to facebook.com/thekellyfile. Thanks for watching the "Kelly File" Special: Lone Wolf. I'm Jenna Lee.
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