Is NBA's activism the reason for record-low Finals TV ratings?

close

Video

Is NBA's activism the reason for record-low Finals TV ratings?

'Fox & Friends' co-host Brian Kilmeade reacts to league's plan to leave social justice messaging 'off the floor' next season

This is a rush transcript from “The Story with Martha MacCallum" October 8, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: We're getting around. Thank you, Bret. 
Good to see you tonight. So, good evening, everybody. We are 26 days away now from this election and we have the Pence-Harris VP debate, a big deal last night. A lot of people watching. That one's in the books right now. 

But now the drama has turned to next week in Florida. The Commission on Presidential Debates surprising everyone this morning with a call to go virtual for the next face-off between President Trump and Joe Biden one week from now. And that was met with this reaction from the candidates.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, I'm not going to waste my time in a virtual debate. That's not what debating is all about. You sit behind a computer and do a debate, it's ridiculous. And then they cut you off whenever they want. 

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Reset the date. I'm sticking with the date. I'm showing up. I'll be there. And in fact, if he shows up, fine, if he doesn't, fine. 

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

MACCALLUM: So, this was the co-chairman of the Commission on Presidential Debates last night urging people to wear masks in the audience.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

FRANK FAHRENKOPF, COMMISSION FOR PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES: And if you take your mask off, someone will approach you and ask you to please put your mask back on. If you do not put the mask back on, you will be advised that your ticket is canceled, and you will be escorted by law enforcement from the premises.

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

MACCALLUM: So, Frank Fahrenkopf joins us now as Trump campaign national press Hogan Gidley stands by with his reaction. But first, let's go to Frank Fahrenkopf. Frank, thank you so much for being here tonight. Good to have you with us.

FAHRENKOPF: Great to be with you, Martha. 

MACCALLUM: So, it was a great debate last night. Very interesting to watch it all up close in the arena. And then this morning, we were all on our way back from Utah and got the news on our phones. Everybody started buzzing that the next one would be virtual. And it turns out that the camp - that the candidates weren't, pretty much how they found out as well. Give us some insight into why that decision was made, Frank.

FAHRENKOPF: Yes, I will do that, and but I think it's important to understand the role of the commission. We've been around for over 30 years and for 25 of those years, it is the commission that picks the dates, the locations, the format, and the moderators without any consultation with the campaigns and with the candidates. It was created because there were so many problems back in the early 80s as to whether or not the debates would ever take place. There could never be agreement. 

So, we look at this thing very, very carefully. And as I've said many, many times in this particular cycle, we're going to be guided by the medicine. 
We're going to be guided by those people who are advising us. We're not doctors. And as you know, the Cleveland Clinic has been advising us throughout. They went along with this decision. They've - just too many questions as to whether or not we could present this with many, many people who are going to be present in Miami, who would be vulnerable if there - we're going to catch something, if we weren't comfortable. 

So, we thought the best thing to do to make sure that the debate continued was to do it virtually. And that's why we came out with it. We came out with an early morning hour. We made the decision yesterday, but we didn't want to put it out yesterday because of the day before yesterday, because it would have taken over the news and therefore, what happened with the debate would have been overshadowed. 

MACCALLUM: Yes, understandable. So, explain a little bit about why the people who work on the commission, the crew, those who are in the room, why they were so concerned, and does it go back to the president's diagnosis and what happened in Cleveland?

FAHRENKOPF: Not only his diagnosis and what happened in Cleveland, but what's happened in the White House in the last week or so, so many people being - having to be tested, have to be quarantined. And so, the thought was again, we're going to be driven - we're in a Coronavirus situation. And we want to make sure that everyone, not only the candidates, not only the audience, but our crew of 65 people who work in building sets and so forth, and in a town hall meeting with private citizens who are going to be there, we want to make sure that everyone is safe and we're going to go the hard way, not take a chance. 

And that's why we decided, if we were going to have this, we had to do it virtually to make sure that everyone was safe.

MACCALLUM: So, you heard President Trump's reaction to that news. He doesn't want to do it that way. And we now just have - while you and I were talking, his doctor has just spoken out and he says that he believes that the president would be safe to participate by this Saturday. What's your response to that, Frank?

FAHRENKOPF: Our response is that certainly he knows where the Cleveland Clinic is, his doctor can work with those doctors, and when we get that certification, then we can go forward. We can't do it without that. But what's happened in the interim is when he said this morning that he wasn't going to do the debate next Thursday, the net result was the Biden people said, OK, if they're not going to do it and they decided to go elsewhere. 
So, it's created a real difficulty for us whether or not the Miami debate will really take place. 

But the president said, you don't want that kind of a debate where you're sitting in front of a computer. You're not. The provisions were that they would sit wherever they wanted to. The president could do it from the Oval Office. There would be people present, press people. Also, with Biden, people there to make sure that he wasn't reading off a teleprompter, that he's answering the questions. So, I think the president wasn't perhaps properly briefed by his people as to what we're talking about when we're talking about a virtual debate.

MACCALLUM: That's interesting. I mean that obviously leaves the door open to further discussions about this. And the last time, as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, it's been done sort of on our system. The candidate says, yes, I've been tested, and I was negative. So that would all change now, right. It would have to be confirmed. Would both candidates be retested by the Cleveland Clinic. How would that work?

FAHRENKOPF: That would be the decision that they're going to tell us what's going to satisfy them and other physicians as to what's going to be the safest thing. Now, there's a new development that's just happened, Martha. 

I heard from someone a few hours ago from the campaign of Mr. Biden saying that while Thursday, they've got other plans, but the following week, the debate that is set in Nashville on the 22nd, they said they plan to be there and they will be there for a regular debate as it's scheduled, which will be a replica of what happened in Cleveland or if they wanted to - the Trump campaign wanted to do a town hall meeting. They would be willing to do a town hall meeting in Nashville. 

Subject again that we would have to be satisfied from the health standpoint. So that's brand new. I have passed that on to the president's people and we'll wait to see what happens.

MACCALLUM: And what about a third debate that's rearranged to a different date? Is that a possibility? I know the Trump campaign had said maybe the 22nd and the 29th they offered up. Is that possible?

FAHRENKOPF: I don't think it would be possible, but the Biden people have made it very, very clear and for about a month or so that the Nashville debate was going to be the last debate. They had their campaign planned and they wouldn't have a postponement or anything past the Nashville debate. 
But again, if the president's people can talk to them and they can reach agreement, that's another story. It takes two to tango, it takes two to debate. So, we've got to make sure that everyone's in line and where we're going.

MACCALLUM: All right, Frank, thank you very much for joining us and for answering some of these questions tonight. 

FAHRENKOPF: Pleasure, Martha. 

MACCALLUM: We all really get so much out of participating in this program and all of these debates and the work that you all have done over the last
30 something years. So, thank you for being here tonight. Good to talk to you, sir. 

FAHRENKOPF: Thanks a lot. Thanks. 

MACCALLUM: So, now joining me with reaction to that from the Trump campaign, National Press Secretary Hogan Gidley. Hogan, thank you very much for being here this evening. So, the president's doctor, as you just heard me say, has said that he could participate on Saturday. Would the president, do you believe, and I know you're just hearing this too be willing to submit to the testing by the Cleveland Clinic to sign off on all of that? And might this possibility of a Florida debate next week be back on?

HOGAN GIDLEY, TRUMP CAMPAIGN NATIONAL PRESS SECRETARY: I'm not sure because I haven't spoken with him directly on this. Obviously, the president has the best medical experts in the world in the White House medical unit. 
They've helped shepherd him through this Coronavirus diagnosis. He's in great shape now as we all know. 24 hours, 36 hours without any symptoms. 
That's great news. 

But I have to take issue with a lot of that first segment. Let's be honest. 
What happened here? I came on your show months ago and had a conversation with you about how the campaign wanted to have debates earlier and more of them, because Coronavirus prevented both men from being out on the campaign trail in a conventional way, as in a typical campaign year. The commission said, no, we've had these rules in place since the 1980s. We're not moving. 
Coronavirus be damned. 

Now, all of a sudden, after President Trump destroys Joe Biden in a debate and after Vice President Pence crushes Kamala Harris, the next morning unilaterally, without calling our campaign for sure, I can't speak on behalf of the Biden campaign. They changed the debate just a week before it's supposed to happen, clearly trying to wipe off the front pages, the shellacking Kamala Harris took. 

MACCALLUM: Well, listen--

GIDLEY: This is a partisan group. They can say they're bipartisan. Even the Republican members have come out and said horrible things about this president. And now the curtains peeled back because we're having a conversation about how we actually come to conclusions, how we come to agreements on these debates. He was all over the place just now mentioning we only follow the science. Epidemiologist wrote countless stories in the last two days about how the plexiglass they demanded for the vice- presidential debate go up, didn't do a thing. They just want to be--

MACCALLUM: Hogan, let me jump in here. There's a couple of things that are factors here as well. It's my understanding that the people who work in the hall were very disturbed by the fact that A, they don't know when the president got Coronavirus. So, they're wondering if maybe he had it when he was on the debate stage and didn't come clean about what his testing was or his situation. 

Then the first family was there. They walked in with their masks and then they took their masks off. They are not happy about that situation. That's why you saw that the new rules, a lot of new rules were in place last night. So that was a concern of theirs. So, they wanted to and obviously you can't have the debate unless you've got both sides in there. But that is also an issue here.

GIDLEY: Right? The first family I spoke with extensively, they were never asked to put on their masks at all. They were told they had to wear them in the hall. They weren't told they had to wear them while they were seated.

MACCALLUM: So, they're saying that they were not, because the commission says that someone went over to them with masks and said, would you like to put these on? And they said, no. Are you saying that that's a lie?

GIDLEY: No. Asking them if they want to put them on and saying you're supposed to have one on, two completely different things. We know that one of our guests had on a MAGA mask and a Keep America Great hat on, they were told to take those off because they didn't want campaign propaganda. But the Joe Biden people got to keep their campaign propaganda on the entire debate. We know this is skewed. We know this is all in favor of Joe Biden, we understand. 

MACCALLUM: All right, so what are you telling me. So, is the president not going to participate in any more of these? Is that what you're suggesting? 
If you think it's so unfair. 

GIDLEY: No. We know the game here. We've seen this play out now for the last four years. We get it. They're all against us. But the fact remains, the president wants to debate. He's ready, he's willing, and lord knows he's able to take it to whoever stands next to him on that debate stage. He wants more debates, but he wants them to be in-person. And he wants the debate commission to at the very least, have the conversation with the campaign. 

I understand people were nervous about showing up to that debate and working on behalf of the commission. Then let's have the conversation. You can't unilaterally make these decisions. It absolutely takes two to tango as Frank just talked about. The problem is the only two folks dancing are the Biden campaign and the commission, they're leaving us off to the side sitting in a chair.

MACCALLUM: Well, it's my understanding that the Biden campaign did not know about the virtual decision this morning either, and that as he said, they put that out after the vice presidential debate last night because they didn't want to detract from that evening.

GIDLEY: Maybe not, but that makes it worse if they didn't know and we didn't know.

MACCALLUM: Well, he's saying we run the show, and we make the rules, and we ask both sides to show up for the debate and they had concerns on their side. I mean, I'm just - you know, you heard me. 

GIDLEY: I know, but I'm saying we've been back and forth with this. We didn't just show up for the debate. I mean, there are all types of negotiations that go on. 

MACCALLUM: Of course, there are. 

GIDLEY: Who starts first, who ends, opens, closes, timing. All of that stuff is absolutely negotiable. But for them to just unilaterally make this decision, it's absolutely wrong.

MACCALLUM: All right. So, we will see. I hope when you know, if there's going to be an effort to try to push forward based on the doctor of the president's doctors saying he would be ready by Saturday. We'd love to hear more about that. 

GIDLEY: He was ready yesterday, let's be honest. 

MACCALLUM: All right, Hogan, thank you. Good to see you. 

GIDLEY: Thanks so much. Sure 

MACCALLUM: So, the moment the Vice President Pence took aim at China for spreading COVID-19, do you know what reportedly happened in China? They turned off the monitor. The feed suddenly went dead in China, and the folks there couldn't hear any more of what the vice president had to say. White House Trade Adviser Peter Navarro is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) 

MACCALLUM: Last night, when Vice President Pence slammed the Chinese government for letting COVID-19 become a worldwide pandemic, apparently televisions in China went to bars. The debate was cut off suddenly to the viewers there. And then they began tweeting that it was replaced by a message that said, no signal. Please stand by. This is what the Chinese viewers missed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: China is to blame for the Coronavirus. And President Trump is not happy about it. He's made that very clear, made it clear again today. China and the World Health Organization to not play straight with the American people. They did not let our personnel into China to get information on the Coronavirus until the middle of February.

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

MACCALLUM: The debate reportedly back on just in time to hear Senator Harris say this. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA) VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: The Trump administration's perspective and approach to China has resulted in the loss of American lives, American jobs, and America's standing.

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

MACCALLUM: Joining me now with a response tonight is White House Trade Advisor Peter Navarro. Peter, good to have you with us. Thank you for being here tonight.

PETER NAVARRO, WHITE HOUSE TRADE ADVISOR: Martha, you must have had fun last night. I watched the coverage. You guys did great. You and Bret. 

MACCALLUM: Thank you. 

NAVARRO: That was some night.

MACCALLUM: Yes, it was very interesting, substantive. And I think a lot of people got some - saw some good back and forth that was illuminating for hopefully a lot of voters out there. What do you think about this story that apparently, for some reason, the TVs in China stopped working around that point?

NAVARRO: Let me tell you how it works but sets the stage this way. What we have is a Democrat Party and the Chinese Communist Party effectively making common cause in the defeat of Donald J. Trump. And you've got communist China and effectively a socialist Democratic Party. 

What China does is they regularly monitor international broadcasts. You got your seven or 10 second delay. And this was quite calculated on their part. 
But I think it tells the lie as to why the American people would rather have President Trump in the Oval Office rather than Biden-Harris ticket, which the Chinese Communist Party has endorsed. 

And the fact checks in real time, I was surprised that when Kamala Harris made this amazing statement--

MACCALLUM: Why do you say they have endorsed them. Not an official endorsement, 

NAVARRO: Actually, they did. There is a Global Times article that came out about a month ago that basically said they preferred Biden because he would be smoother. So that's - you can do a fact check on that. 

MACCALLUM: Correct. No, you're right about that. I remember what you're talking about. 

NAVARRO: And fact check this, when Harris says that the president's tariffs had cost 300,000 manufacturing jobs. I mean, there's no scenario where that's possible. What is true, Martha, is that when Joe Biden voted for China into the World Trade Organization, what happened subsequently was
70,000 factories gone to Shanghai, Beijing and Guangzhou and over 5 million manufacturing jobs lost. And so, it struck me, I think that my takeaway there is that these folks seem totally unprepared to deal with China, either economically or diplomatically, and seem to have no inclination to do so.

MACCALLUM: Let's play another bit from last night. Get your reaction to it. 
Here we go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

HARRIS: The president's trade war with China. You lost that trade war. You lost it. 

PENCE: Lost the trade war with China. Joe Biden never fought it. Joe Biden has been a cheerleader for communist China through over the last several decades. When Joe Biden was vice president, we lost 200,000 manufacturing jobs.

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

MACCALLUM: Your thoughts. 

NAVARRO: Well, and to finish what the Vice President Pence said was we gained 500,000 manufacturing jobs and Barack Obama said, you wouldn't need a magic wand to do it. That sound bite will live in history. I thought vice president's performance last night was masterful, but that was my sound bite, really of the night. 

And China, I think the most important issue in this campaign and the fact that there hasn't been enough talk about it, I think speaks to the fact that that is kind of an issue suppression. But if you think about it, China meets at the intersection of both the destruction of our economy and the infection that China gave with the virus.

So, we need to talk more about--

MACCALLUM: Hopefully, we're going to hear more about it in the next two debates. 

NAVARRO: I would love that. 

MACCALLUM: We're all hoping that they do happen. Before I let you go, you work in the White House. This is what Mitch McConnell said about the reports that there are 34 cases that have surfaced on members of the staff. 
Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): I haven't been in the White House since August of 6th. And I personally didn't feel that they were approaching the protection from this illness in the same way that I thought it was appropriate for the Senate. And the Senate has been operating in a way that I think has largely prevented construction of this disease.

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

MACCALLUM: He suggested when I spoke with him the other night that the senators who did get it weren't in the Senate when they got it. And I said, you mean they were at the White House? And he said, well, I'm just going to say they do things differently. Your reaction?

NAVARRO: The protocols in place here have been stringent. We had for a long time that the tents outside where you regularly got your temperature tested, anybody who's close to the president are likely to come in contact, get tested every day as I do. The good news, the great news is that the people who have been infected here within the White House have suffered relatively mild cases. And I'm here tonight talking with you, Martha, and I'm very comfortable walking around this White House and feel very safe here. 

The bigger issue here is safety for the American public. And this president is attacking this deadly virus from China on four different vectors. It's making sure we have the personal protective equipment, testing therapeutics, vaccine development.

MACCALLUM: Peter Navarro, got to leave it there. Out of time. Thank you very much. 

NAVARRO: Yes, ma'am. Good to see you tonight. 

MACCALLUM: Good to have you with us. 

NAVARRO: In virtual space. 

MACCALLUM: Absolutely. All right. So, coming up, President Trump once again raising doubts about the integrity of the 2020 election, days after his own FBI director publicly assured the American people that the outcome, he says, can be trusted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

TRUMP: I'm urging my supporters to go into the polls and watch very carefully. I am urging my people. I hope it's going to be a fair election, if it's a fair election, I am 100 percent on board. But if I see tens of thousands of ballots being manipulated, I can't go along with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

CHRISTOPHER WRAY, FBI DIRECTOR: Some Americans will go to the polls on November 3rd to cast their votes, while others will be voting by mail. Rest assured that the security of the election and safeguarding your vote is and will continue to be one of our highest priorities. We're not going to tolerate foreign interference in our elections or criminal activity that threatens the sanctity of your vote or undermines public confidence in the outcome of the election.

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

MACCALLUM: Well, there is a huge surge in pre-election voting this year. 
Already, more than 6 million people have cast their ballots far outpacing. 
Four years ago, when it was around 429,000 at this point. So, the FBI Director, Christopher Wray, is seeking to reassure and President Trump is cautious. Listen to this. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Address Christopher Wray, will you replace him in a second term?

TRUMP: Well, I don't want to say that yet. He's been disappointing. He talks about even the voting thing, that he doesn't see the voting ballots as a problem. There are thousands of ballots right now. You pick up any paper in the country practically, and they're cheating all over the place on the ballots. So, how does that not a problem?

MACCALLUM: Joining me now is Kelvin Coleman, National Cyber Security Alliance executive director. Kelvin, thank you very much for being with us tonight. So, it is --

(CROSSTALK)

KELVIN COLEMAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NCSA: Martha, it's great to be here.

MACCALLUM: Thank you. It is amazing that you've had more than six million people already voting by mail-in ballots. So how given the fact that it's so much bigger than we've ever had before, how can it not be, you know, an additional concern in this COVID environment? 

COLEMAN: Well, it's not additional concern because of the preparation that's gone into making sure this election is secure. From 2016 to today we had a tremendous amount of work that has gone into making sure that it's been a -- that it is going to be a secure election. I know the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency led by Chris Krebs has been working with state and local officials to make sure that everything goes the way it should. 

And certainly, we've seen this all of nation approach that Director Krebs talks about. And we're going to see the fruit of that bear out in a very promising way. I feel very confident it's going to be a secure election. 

MACCALLUM: OK. So, Chris Krebs himself has said that it may be that the results are not known on November the 3rd. It might go later than that. So that inevitably could lead to a lot of reevaluation of the ballots and whether or not they are secure. Right?

COLEMAN: I will push back a bit in that. No, I would disagree with that because we may have unofficial vote count on election night. In other words, we may not have the official count but that does not mean something nefarious has happened. What that means is we have a record number of Americans who are mailing in their ballots because of COVID or any other circumstance.

MACCALLUM: Right.

COLEMAN: And the secretaries of states are having to deal with the vote count that they necessarily haven't had to deal within the past. Again, that doesn't necessarily point to a nefarious intent. It just points to that they want to get the count right. 

MACCALLUM: No, it doesn't have to be nefarious. I mean, there was a case in Carrollton, Texas a mayoral candidate was brought up on charges, 25 counts of unlawful possession of mail-in ballots because he was ordering them to what they think was a nursing home location and then putting them in his car. 

So, I know there are instances that people are concerned about. And I would just mention, in my hometown where we have universal ballots going out, I have one friend who got six ballots in his mailbox for his neighbors. I have another friend who got ballots for the people who lives in their house nine years ago. 

So, I mean, I don't know how this can be something that you have no concerns about problems when we are seeing both nefarious acts and also just things that look like mistakes that could lead to potential nefarious acts. 

COLEMAN: I don't know if I quite said I have no concerns, right, I just said I have a high level of confidence that it's going to go well. I'm not saying we're not going to have, you know, small instances here and there but through the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, they've talked about, you know, prepare, participate and certainly have patience. 
Right?

And start to prepare now in terms of your voting and how you are going to vote and participate, we still want you to participate. And certainly, again, be patient because on election night we may not have that official count. But again, that does not necessarily point to something wrong, it simply points to the 50 secretaries of state saying we want to get this right. 

In these days it's not just about winning, it's about winning by how much. 
Right? And so, they want to make sure they have that precise number. 

MACCALLUM: All right. Well, we hope you are right. Kelvin, thank you. 
Kelvin Coleman, I appreciate you being here tonight, sir. 

COLEMAN: Thank you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: So, in a handful of key battleground states won by President Trump in 2016, Joe Biden's advantage is less at this point than Hillary Clinton's was at the same time. So, what does that mean or what could it mean for what's coming 26 days from. Guy Benson breaks it down for us, next. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: New details tonight in the scandal that is rocking the North Carolina Senate race right now, a contest that could prove critical in the Senate in 2020. Fox has obtained the intimate text messages between Democratic challenger Cal Cunningham and a woman who is not his wife that led to the revelations of an alleged affair. 

Rich Edson on this story for us tonight from D.C. Hi, Rich.

RICH EDSON, FOX NEWS WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Hey. Good evening, Martha. 
And you know, it is a really close race to determine which party is going to control the United States Senate. Part of that is that key race, it's a close one, a tight one in North Carolina and now this extramarital affair has that all appended. 

Fox News has obtained of these text messages that show Democratic candidate Cal Cunningham's apparent affair with a public relations strategist, Arlene Guzman Todd. Cunningham is married with two children. In one of these texts, Cunningham writes, quote, "it would make my day to roll over and kiss you about now." And then reveals that he's, quote, "nervous about the next 100 days." 

In another text Cunningham writes he wants to see Guzman Todd again and she replies, I don't think you realize the magnitude of what you're doing. 
Cunningham has canceled campaign events and largely avoided the public, though he did address this in a Facebook live event.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

CAL CUNNINGHAM (D-NC), SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: I am deeply sorry for the hurt that I have caused in my personal life and I also apologize to all of you. 
And I hope each of you watching at home will accept this sincere apology and that we will continue to work together to change the direction of our country and strengthen our state. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: I think we lost Rich Edson. So that is basically the back-and- forth of what's going on in North Carolina right now. Then you've got some key battleground states where President Trump is behind Joe Biden but he's behind by less than he was last time around and then he ended up winning in those states, which makes people wonder if that could be the case again. 

So, let's a closer look at Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, and North Carolina. North Carolina I should have said. All the states that President Trump won back in 2016, the polling averages show that President Trump is behind in those crucial states by -- there they are -- by a smaller margin than he was back then as we said. 

So, can he make up the ground in those states or not at this point? So, we bring in for this discussion Guy Benson, host of the Guy Benson show, and Richard Fowler, senior fellow at the New Leaders Council. Both are Fox News contributors. 

Good to have both of you with us tonight.

Obviously, those --

GUY BENSON, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Hey, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Hey, there.

MACCALLUM: -- Senate races are --

(CROSSTALK)

RICHARD FOWLER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Good to be here, Martha.

MACCALLUM: -- going to be very interesting to watch in these battleground states are very, very key as well. I want to start actually by playing a sound bite from last night because there was discussion about these battleground states and I want to get your reaction to this. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENCE: Senator Kamala Harris was one of only 10 members of the Senate to vote against the USMCA. It was a huge win for American autoworkers. It was a huge win for American farmers especially dairy in the upper Midwest. 

But Senator, you said it didn't go far enough on climate change that you put your radical environmental agenda ahead of American autoworkers and ahead of American -- 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: So, Richard, let me start with you. Obviously, that is a direct address, a direct plea to those voters in the Midwest to vote for Trump- Pence because of the issues that are very near and dear to them. What did you think? 

FOWLER: I think that was a well-played approach by the vice president but let's be real. What you see happening in the ground and many of this sort of Midwestern rust belt states is you see suburban voters moving away from this president and they've started moving away from him on the election night of 2016. 

We saw them move further away from him in 2018 in the midterm elections and now as we approach November, you're seeing suburban voters especially women say we're not sure that Donald Trump is the right choice to lead our country for the next four years. 

Now I understand that the polls are tightening, and you expect polls to tighten but here's a caveat. Remember, by the time we get to November 3rd, Martha, I'm pretty sure everybody on this panel have already voted and the majority of Americans have already voted. So even if the polls begin to tighten a lot of ballots were already been cast based on the debate performance from last week, debate performance from this week and what has happened prior to today. 

MACCALLUM: Yes.

FOWLER: Prior to election day.

MACCALLUM: Guy, what do you think?

BENSON: Although a lot of polls incorporate people have already voted saying how they voted, right? So, if the polls tighten that at least on some level would be included. 

Look, Martha, to the question about whether the president can make up this gap, the answer from four years ago is obviously we don't know yet and nothing is decided until we say as the voters that it's over, and so, to sort of paraphrase animal house there. 

So, there's, there's a lot of time left but not a ton. And I would say there are two interesting dynamics that I'm watching very closely to see if there could be a replay of 2016. 

The first is, and this one that cuts against the president. Our new Fox News poll has him down 10 points nationally and struggling in some of those key swing states. The last time out, four years ago, his personal favorability rating was terrible but so was Hillary Clinton's. They were both historically unpopular. 

In the new poll out yesterday, Trump is down 10, you know, minus 10 on personal favorability. Joe Biden is plus 16, he is nowhere near as disliked as Hillary Clinton. That makes that sort of that uphill climb a little bit steeper for the president. 

The other thing I will point out is a new Gallup poll. Asked Americans last month, are you better off today than you were four years ago at the end of the Obama administration? Fifty-six percent, a clear majority of American say, yes. 

So, if the Trump campaign can seize on that group of people and say we're responsible for a lot of that progress in your life, let's not turn the keys back over to the people who left office four years ago when you were feeling worse off. That could be some room there for Trump to move up. 

MACCALLUM: Yes, you know, it's also interesting to note that around this time in 2016, Hillary Clinton, Richard, was a under a lot of pressure. They were re-opening the e-mail investigation at that point. There was a lot downward pressure on what she was facing at this point and that doesn't appear to be the case right now for Joe Biden. 

What do you think, Richard, are going to be sort of the pivotal things that could change this race or could have an impact on it with 26 days to go?

FOWLER: I think Guy is absolutely right about a couple of things. I think he's right about the likability, and he's also right about the fact that Americans will like they're doing better off. But you have to also remember what's in the front mirror -- what's in the front of the -- what's the front window for many Americans is COVID-19, right? And the impact that
COVID-19 is having on their life.

And the fact that the president is sort of off the chess board, right, because he is currently infected really calls us folks to look at COVID-19 once again and asked themself the critical question. Am I really better off than I was four years ago, am I better off than I was seven months ago? Has his president really moved this country forward? Has he flattened the curve on COVID-19?

And that will be the argument that you're going to hear the Biden campaign push for the many -- for the next 20-some odd days.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

FOWLER: Donald Trump is unable to lead on this particular issue and it's a very strong argument for the vice president. 

MACCALLUM: Well, I hope we have two more debates so that we can get -- address some of these questions. And I think the other big issue is where do you think you're going to be four years from now because this thing will eventually be behind us, and I think Americans have to look both of these candidates to try to figure out which is the person that they want to, to lead them over the four years and we'll see what they decide.

Guy, thank you. Richard, thank you, as always. Good to see you both.

BENSON: Thanks, Martha.

FOWLER: Good to see you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: So, here's an interesting story, the NBA is now backing off their embrace of some of the social justice messages that they put on the uniforms and also on the Black Lives Matter signs on the court. 

Brian Kilmeade takes a look at why they might be doing that, what's the larger dynamic here? There was such a commitment to these messages. He's with us, when we come back. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: All right, this is a little breaking news tonight, President Trump's physician released an update on his condition saying that he's been stable since leaving the hospital and has completed the prescribed treatment and is clear to return to public engagements by Saturday. No word on the negative tests and how many negative tests there's been so we'll continue to get the information on that.

And in the meantime, the NBA signaling a, quote, "return to normalcy next year" doing away with some of the Black Lives Matter emblems potentially on the courts and on the jerseys and turning to other ways to support social justice. 

Here's the commissioner Adam Silver this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

ADAM SILVER, COMMISSIONER, NBA: We are completely committed to standing for social justice and racial equality and that's been the case going back decades, it's part of the DNA of this league. How it gets manifested is something we're going to have to sit down with the players and discuss for next season. 

I would say in terms of the messages you see on our courts and on the jerseys, my senses it will be somewhat a return to normalcy, that those message are -- messages will largely be left to be delivered off the floor. 
And I understand those people who are saying I'm on your side, but I want to watch a basketball game. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Very interesting. Brian Kilmeade is here, glad to have him tonight. Co-host of Fox & Friends and the Brian Kilmeade show on Fox News radio. Brian, thank you for being here, first of all. They are in the middle of their tournament, what is going on with the ratings and what does this tell you that Adam Silver is saying this now? 

BRIAN KILMEADE, FOX NEWS HOST: So much and so many factors. We've never played basketball in October or ended a season or at playoffs in October ever. They are going to start next year in January. So last year when it came to the finals, the Raptors, a great team but not a high-profile team against Golden State Warriors out in the West Coast. 

They will get 15 million watching, now they were getting seven. They had an all-time low in the finals in game three in Heat and Lakers. LeBron, the most famous athlete arguably on the planet playing for the Lakers, the most high-profile team against the Heat with Pat Riley, the former Lakers coach that brought us showtime.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

KILMEADE: And they just can't get the interest. That has a lot to do with the competition. Number one, I'll give you that. Football, baseball, hockey just ended. There's competition. Granted. But I also think it has a lot to do with the fact that the league has put it in your face about the activism. They put on the back these different justice slogans that have been approved by the league, not your name. 

MACCALLUM: Yes.

KILMEADE: You know, not everybody knows everybody by facing the NBA and the name is even confusing and I just think also people got a little bit use to life without sports, Martha, believe it or not. 

MACCALLUM: Interesting.

KILMEADE: People were thirsting for sports but we got three or four months without it and a lot of people have moved on and kind of lost interest in it. 

MACCALLUM: People are doing -- they are reading books and doing needlepoint. Right? That's what you're doing.

KILMEADE: Talking to each other. 

MACCALLUM: Talking to each other. You know, it obviously expands to all the other sports, too which have, you know, been very emblematic in their discussion about this. 

This is some interesting polls. Should pro athletes use their platform to express views, a 62-percent say yes. Should -- is it appropriate for athletes to kneel during the anthem to protest racial inequality? And you've got 56 percent who say it's appropriate. 

It's interesting, I mean, just purely anecdotal but I talked to a Vietnam veteran and a former police officer when we are out in Cleveland, and just, you know, making conversation and I said are you a Browns fan? And he said not anymore. I said why? He said the kneeling, he said it's not the team that I have supported my whole life. He grew up there, like I said, anecdotal. But what's your take? 

KILMEADE: A couple of things. I did sports radio for about eight years and one of those Michael Jordan was at his hottest then. And a lot of people would say why don't you like Michael Jordan? Why don't you like Jim Brown, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Muhammad Ali? You're so famous, why did you use it for activism? And he said, you know, I'm here to play sports. I don't want to get involved in black in white or politics. I don't want to turn anybody off. 

Now we got the other way. Everyone is involved. They are telling us to vote. We got the coach of the Seahawks yelling us to vote. We got LeBron James walking off the court with his team because of Jacob Blake, the tragedy of his shooting. What happened in Kenosha? 

And then we have the same thing happen in baseball and people are saying to themselves on some level, and I get it all the time, again, anecdotal. I watch sports to get a break. 

MACCALLUM: Yes.

KILMEADE: If I want to hear LeBron James his feeling on racial issue, and I actually do but can it be after the game in a feature that you could do with anybody, Jim Gray or Martha MacCallum after the game? But when you finish the game and racial justice is on the hat and your comments are about shootings, or Breonna Taylor, a lot of people are going really, I was just watching Fox News. I needed a break.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

KILMEADE: I wanted to see who won the game and now you're telling me what's wrong with America. And I think people have a real problem with it but they are not saying it, Martha. Because if they sat it out loud, they look insensitive, like we don't know there's a problem with race in America. 
Yes, we are perfect yet, we've made a lot of progress. 

MACCALLUM: Yes.

KILMEADE: So, people just keep their mouth shut and they start raking the lawn, you know, and playing tag. 

MACCALLUM: I just have half a minute but, you know, I think also there's a question about what -- does it make a difference? You know? Wearing the t- shirt and putting that on the court. And maybe in the best possible scenario, what Adam Silver is saying, it's time to do something else, you know, besides these things. 

So, I've got to leave it there. Brian, it's great to see you. Thank you for staying up late with us tonight. 

KILMEADE: OK. 

MACCALLUM: Good to see you. 

KILMEADE: I'll see you in the hall, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Good. I'll see you soon. More of The Story coming up next, stay with us. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: Thanks for joining us tonight everybody. That is The Story of this Thursday, October the 8th, 2020. The Story continues, though. So, we will be back here for you tomorrow night at seven. Have a great night. 
Tomorrow is Friday and I will see you then.

Content and Programming Copyright 2020 Fox News Network, LLC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Copyright 2020 ASC Services II Media, LLC.  All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.