This is a rush transcript of "Fox News Sunday" on September 26, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I'm Chris Wallace.

The crisis at the southern border sparking fierce criticism of the Biden,

from both the right and left.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R), TEXAS: The only thing that they've shown is an

incapability of dealing with this crisis, candidly, in a way where they

pretend it doesn't even exist.

WALLACE (voice-over): Images of thousands of people camped under a bridge

in squalid conditions. Now, Homeland Security says the migrants are gone,

thousands released into the U.S. to await immigration hearings.

ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS, DHS SECRETARY: What we do when we see something with

unprecedented is we respond, and respond we did.

WALLACE: And an uproar over footage of aggressive treatment of migrants by

Border Patrol.

REP. AYANNA PRESSLEY (D-MA): This is abhorrent. We can and we must do

better.

WALLACE: Pushback from Democrats the president was quick to respond to.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I promise you, those people

will pay. There will be consequences.

WALLACE: We'll ask Secretary of Homeland Security Alejandro Mayorkas what

is Joe Biden's immigration policy and we'll get reaction from Texas

Governor Greg Abbott, who's been leading the charge to tighten control of

the border. It's a "FOX News Sunday" exclusive.

Plus, a measure to avoid a government shutdown and keep the country from

going into default faces a crucial vote tomorrow night. We'll ask our

Sunday panel what's at stake for the U.S. economy and the Biden agenda.

And our "Power Player of the Week." He's on a mission to preserve the

historic battlefield where his great-great-grandfather fought in the civil

war.

All, right now, on "FOX News Sunday."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE (on camera): And hello again from FOX News in.

Since Joe Biden took office, there have been more than 1 million encounters

with people trying to cross illegally into this country. But the shocking

images from Del Rio, Texas, this week seemed to crystallize how out of

control the situation is.

Thousands of migrants huddled under a bridge in unspeakable conditions.

Border Patrol officers on horseback, setting off a firestorm of outrage. At

least 10,000 migrants were deported back to Haiti or returned to Mexico.

But thousands more are still in this country waiting for their cases to be

heard by an immigration judge.

All of it raising new questions about President Biden's immigration policy.

In a moment, we'll talk with the Secretary of Homeland Security, Alejandro

Mayorkas, and we'll get reaction from the Republican governor of Texas,

Greg Abbott.

But first, let's bring in Jeff Paul in Del Rio, on the border with Mexico -

- Jeff.

JEFF PAUL, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Chris, the International Bridge

here in Del Rio, Texas, is finally being reopened after that surge of

migrants forced its closure. The camp of mostly Haitian nationals has been

cleared out, but the steady stream of migration has shown no signs of

slowing down.

No matter the day, the time, or the weather, they do not stop coming. This

family unit from Venezuela is crossing into Del Rio, Texas. They are one of

the untold numbers who attempt to enter the U.S. every single day.

The image is a stark contrast to the recent surge of thousands who streamed

across the Rio Grande just one week ago.

MAYOR BRUNO LOZANO (D), DEL RIO, TEXAS: I can tell you the humanitarian

efforts have been -- it's just something that I've never seen on this scale

before.

PAUL: But those efforts have drawn criticism after images surfaced this

week shown border patrol, horse patrols clashing with migrants.

MAYORKAS: We know that those images painfully conjured up the worst

elements of our nation's ongoing battle against systemic racism.

PAUL: The Biden administration has suspended the use of force patrols in

the Del Rio sector and an investigation is underway.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PAUL (on camera): After this latest round, there could be yet another

migrant caravan heading north. Sources here on the ground in Texas tell us

they are tracking a group of 20,000 people who just crossed the southern

border of Mexico and they're heading north and could land anywhere here

along the U.S.-Mexico border within the next month -- Chris.

WALLACE: Jeff Paul reporting from our southern border -- Jeff, thank you.

And joining us now here in studio is the Secretary of Homeland Security,

Alejandro Mayorkas.

Welcome back, sir, to "FOX News Sunday."

ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Thank you very much for

having me.

WALLACE: I want to start with those 30,000 Haitian migrants who came

across the border into Del Rio, Texas, since September 9th, as you say. You

say that 12,400 will have their cases heard by an immigration judge and

another 5,000 are being processed by your department.

Mr. Secretary, of those 17,400, how many have been released into the U.S.

and how many more potentially could be released into the U.S.?

MAYORKAS: So, Chris, about 3,000 are actually in detention, and we make

those detention determinations in the best interest of the American public.

Others are in immigration court proceedings. They are monitored by Oscar.

We impose conditions upon them so we keep in touch with them and ensure

their appearance in court, as the law requires.

WALLACE: But to answer my question directly, of the 17,400 that weren't

deported back or didn't return on their own to Mexico, how many of them

either -- well, first, how many have been released into the U.S.?

MAYORKAS: They're released on conditions.

WALLACE: Yes.

MAYORKAS: Approximately, I think it's about 10,000 or so, 12,000.

WALLACE: Have been released?

MAYORKAS: Yes.

WALLACE: And of the 5,000 that are still in process?

MAYORKAS: We will make determinations whether they will be returned to

Haiti based on our public health and public interest authorities.

WALLACE: So, are we talking about a total of 12,000 or could it be even

higher?

MAYORKAS: It could -- it could be even higher. The number that are

returned could be even higher. What we do is we follow the law as Congress

has passed it.

WALLACE: But let's drill down on more than 12,000 migrants who you say

that you're going to keep surveillance over but they are being released

into this country.

MAYORKAS: Chris, that's what the law requires.

WALLACE: I understand.

MAYORKAS: If, in fact, someone is not expelled under the public health

authority of the Centers for Disease Control, then they are placed in

immigration enforcement proceedings. They have an opportunity to make their

claim for relief to a judge as the law requires.

WALLACE: I understand all of that.

But let's talk about what it's going to happen to those 12,000. Removal

proceedings, including asylum cases, can take anywhere from six months to

several years, and 44 percent, according to the Department of Justice, 44

percent of those who are released into custody -- from custody -- miss

their court hearings.

Just as a matter of reality, won't many of those thousands of people end up

settling here in the United States, some of them permanently?

MAYORKAS: Chris, we have enforcement guidelines in place that provide that

individuals who are recent border crossers who do not show up for their

hearings are enforcement priorities, and will be removed. And that is one

of our --

WALLACE: And do you remove all of them or some of them disappear into the

country?

MAYORKAS: Well, we -- it is our intention to remove them, that is what our

policies are, and we deploy our enforcement resources according to certain

priorities to ensure the safety and security of the American people.

WALLACE: But, sir, there are more than 11 million people in this country

illegally. Clearly, despite your best efforts, millions of people end up in

this country and don't -- just disappear.

MAYORKAS: Chris, 11 million people in this country without lawful presence

is a compelling reason why there is unanimity about the fact that our

immigration system is broken and legislative reform is needed.

WALLACE: Okay. According to internal documents, your department is now

tracking a lot more people, including Haitians, who are on their way up

from South America, Central America, to cross the border into this country.

I want to put up the numbers: 20,000 Haitians in Columbia, 3,000 in Peru,

and 1,500 in Panama.

In May, the Biden administration extended temporary protected status for

the 150,000 Haitians already living in the U.S. and now as you've said, you

have released another more than 12,000 into the country.

Our next guest, Texas Governor Abbott, traveled to Del Rio, to the site of

that bridge and the 15,000 people huddled under the bridge this week, and

here's what he had to say, take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R), TEXAS: When you have an administration that has

abandoned any pretense of securing the border and securing our sovereignty,

you see the onrush of people like what we saw walking across this dam that

is right behind me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Hasn't this administration created a magnet? Haven't you given

Haitians, and a million more immigrants will you have an encounter with

since Joe Biden came into office, haven't you given them a reason to

believe there's a reasonable chance if they come into this country, they'll

end up being released into the country and have months or perhaps years to

stay here?

MAYORKAS: Chris, this is nothing new. We've seen this type of irregular

migration many, many times throughout the years. I don't know if Governor

Abbott said the same thing in 2019 when there were more than a million

people encountered at the southern border.

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: It has gotten worse. The statistics of your own department show

that the flood of people coming illegally across the border has gotten

worse under the Biden demonstration.

MAYORKAS: So, I wouldn't call it a flood, if I may.

WALLACE: What would you call it?

MAYORKAS: But we -- we have seen large numbers of individuals encountered

at our border making a claim for asylum, for humanitarian relief, which is

a statute, which is a law of the United States that individuals can make a

claim, a fear of persecution by reason of their membership in a particular

social group. That's what the law provides.

This -- we are certainly seeing a large number here in this year, but in

2019, we saw a large number. In 2014, in 2010. This is nothing new.

It spans many, many years. It spans different administrations of both

parties, and it speaks to the need for legislative reform.

WALLACE: But I want to get to this question about asylum-seekers having to

come over in a minute. But I want to talk first because you say, well,

nothing has changed. You had -- I mean, I think what was so dramatic about

these last two weeks is that, yes, there is a trickle of people to come

across, but to see 30,000 people in 17 days come across the border into one

location and be hiding under that -- huddling under that bridge, you say

30,000 people walked across that dam into Del Rio in the last 17 days.

Question, why didn't you stop them?

MAYORKAS: Oh. So, we encountered them at the border. That's where we

encountered them, Chris. And you know what? We saw indeed a large number of

people cross at one particular part of the border in a short period of

time.

And what did we do? We surged our resources, we surged our personnel and --

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: Why didn't -- why didn't you stop them from coming into the

country?

MAYORKAS: We -- we did. We encountered them, they gathered -- they

assembled in that one location in Del Rio, Texas, and we applied the laws.

We applied the public health law under the CDC's authority, and we applied

immigration law.

WALLACE: My question is why did you allow them in the country in the first

place? Why didn't you build -- forgive me, a wall or a fence to stop them

from walking -- this flood of people coming across the dam, it looks like a

highway that allows them to cross the Rio Grande.

MAYORKAS: It is the policy of this administration. We do not agree with

the building of the wall. The law provides that individuals can make a

claim for humanitarian relief. That is actually one of our proudest

traditions.

WALLACE: Of the 30,000 Haitians who came across the border into Del Rio,

how many did your department test for COVID?

MAYORKAS: So we have strict COVID testing protocols that we apply across

the board. We test, isolate, and quarantine unaccompanied children. We work

with nonprofit organizations to test families.

Those who are in ICE custody are tested, isolated, and quarantine. Those

who are expelled under the Title 42 Public Health Authority are returned

immediately. They are not placed in immigration court proceedings, and

those we do not test, because they are returned immediately.

WALLACE: But your own departments inspector general said that your testing

policy -- and the failure to test a lot of people wound up in this country

-- that you rely on local or state officials and a lot of people don't get

tested has put communities in this country at risk.

MAYORKAS: We concurred with those recommendations, we made improvements.

That is also nothing new. That is exactly why we have an independent review

of our operations, to see where we can make improvements, where we can

strengthen our processes, and that is exactly what we did here.

WALLACE: A couple of more questions I want to get into with you.

Your department is now investigating the Border Patrol for those officers

on horseback who were at the border trying to keep Haitians from coming

across the border.

Here is Senator Lindsey Graham talking about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I think the most inhumane thing going on right

now in America is that the men and women of the Border Patrol have been

completely abandoned, demagogue, scapegoat, and treated like dirt by

elected officials and the Democratic Party and this administration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: I know you've got an investigation going on so I'm not going to

ask about what they did. What I am going to ask you is who ordered those

patrol agents on horseback to go to the border, and what were they supposed

to do?

MAYORKAS: Chris, I'd like to not speak about what they were supposed to do

because that also touches upon the investigation that is ongoing, what our

policies and training required, and whether or not those individual.

(CROSSTALK)

MAYORKAS: But the horse patrol is something the Border Patrol employees

because horses can traverse, they can cover terrain that might not

otherwise be covered.

WALLACE: I understand, but they weren't there, they were on the border to

block the Haitians from coming across.

MAYORKAS: W use the Border Patrol, the horse patrol, to assess the

situation and very often to help people in distress. Whether these

individual Border Patrol agents on horseback complied with our policies and

training, or whether they did not, is the subject of an investigation. And

that investigation is independent, and the outcome will be determined by

the facts and nothing more.

WALLACE: Finally, you talked earlier about the fact that allowing people

to come into this country to make a claim of asylum is the law. But in fact

-- and you know this well, sir -- more than a month ago, the Supreme Court

overruled the idea that this administration had unilaterally decided to

rescind President Trump -- former President Trump's "remain in Mexico"

policy, the people had to wait in Mexico while making their claim of

asylum. They made that ruling more than a month ago.

Why have you failed to comply with the Supreme Court's ruling to reinstate

"remain in Mexico"?

MAYORKAS: So, it is a district court ruling.

WALLACE: No, no, a Supreme Court ruling.

MAYORKAS: Well, the Supreme Court made a determination on the injunction,

but we can talk about the law another time.

But let me say this, that we are complying with the court's order. We do

have an obligation to implement the migrant protection protocols, and we

are negotiating with Mexico, because those protocols require a bilateral

agreement.

And so, we are negotiating with Mexico, as we are required to do under the

court's order.

WALLACE: Mr. Secretary, thank you. Thanks for your time. Thanks for taking

time out during these very busy days to speak with us, sir.

MAYORKAS: Thank you so much for having me.

WALLACE: Up next, we'll get reaction from Texas Governor Greg Abbott,

who's on the front line of the crisis on our southern border.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: At the height of the migrant crisis in Del Rio, our next guest

wrote to President Biden seeking an emergency declaration for his state.

Joining us now from Austin, Texas Governor Greg Abbott.

Governor, welcome back to FOX NEWS SUNDAY.

GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R-TX): Thank you, Chris.

WALLACE: You just heard my conversation with Secretary Mayorkas. Your

reaction?

ABBOTT: Listen, Secretary Mayorkas and even, I can be candid, even

President Biden, they are in dereliction of duty.

Listen, and he talked about the laws they were trying to apply. The United

States Constitution itself requires that the president and that the federal

government secure the sovereignty of the United States of America,

including the states in the United States of America, and the Biden

administration has abandoned any pretense of securing the sovereignty of

either Texas or the United States by having these open border policies that

you so well articulated. They have created a magnet that led to these

massive groups of Haitians, as well as the other groups, that are coming

here for one reason, and that's because they have sent a message and a

signal to the entire world that they are not going to secure the border,

they're going to allow them across.

WALLACE: Right.

ABBOTT: You talked to Secretary Mayorkas, repeatedly asking him why they

did not stop the Haitians from coming across the board in first place.

Chris, everyone knew, including the Biden administration, the Haitians had

gathered on the Mexican side of the border before they crossed and the

Biden administration did nothing to stop those Haitians who had gathered in

masse in Mexico from coming across the board.

WALLACE: So -- so, Governor, let me ask you about what you're trying to

do. You have set up what you call Operation Lone Star in Texas. And let's

take a look at some of the measures.

The Texas legislature has approved almost $3 billion for border security,

including building a wall. You've surged thousands of state personnel,

including National Guard, to work with local law enforcement.

Governor, are you in effect taking over immigration policy for the state of

Texas?

ABBOTT: I will give you the words of Border Patrol agents themselves in

Del Rio when they said that the surge of migrants across the border was

stopped only when the Texas Department of Public Safety and the National

Guard showed up to provide a steel barrier to prevent the migrants from

coming across. As soon as the National Guard and the Texas Department of

Public Safety showed up, literally with hundreds if not thousands of

vehicles, that is when the illegal migration stopped. That's exactly what

the Biden administration could do if they wanted to but, Chris, it's the

kind of thing that Texas is going to have to continue to do in addition to

the other policies that you did not announce, and that is, as opposed to

catch and release, Texas has imposed a policy where we are going to arrest

and jail people who are coming across the border for trespassing into areas

into the state of Texas.

WALLACE: Well, let me ask you, because in your first answer you said that

under the Constitution the president has a responsibility to protect the

sovereignty of this country. And I know you're a strict constitutionalist.

But the Constitution is pretty clear, and so has the Supreme Court in

repeated rulings, that it is the federal government, whether it does it or

not, it's the federal government that has the responsibility for

immigration laws. And, in fact, the U.S. attorney general, Merrick Garland,

has written to you and threatened to sue, arguing that you and your state

are overstepping your authority.

ABBOTT: Because the Biden administration is refusing to do its duty to

enforce the laws of the United States, they have left Texas in no position

other than for us to step up and do what we have to do. You know, you

mentioned the people in Del Rio and the way that Del Rio was overrun by a

population about the same size of Del Rio that had been coming across the

border illegally.

As governor, I'm not going to let that happen. I am going to step up and do

whatever I have to do to make sure that I protect the people of Del Rio, as

well as all these other communities in the state of Texas that the Biden

administration is ignoring. The people in south Texas, they are angry about

the Biden administration for ignoring them, for abetting them. The Biden

administration cares far more about people who are not in this country than

he does of the people, American citizens who live in this country. And I'm

going to step up and support the citizens of the United States of America.

WALLACE: A number of people have been -- Democrats especially -- have

expressed outrage over those Border Patrol officers on horseback who were

at the border and seemed to be trying to block Haitians, pretty

aggressively, from coming across the border.

Here was President Biden on all of that this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It was horrible what to see --

as you saw to see people treated like they did, horses nearly running them

over and people being strapped. It's outrageous. I promise you, those

people will pay. They will be -- an investigation underway now and there

will be consequences.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Governor, even if you think that those officers are being

scapegoated, are you at all troubled by the images of these officers on

horseback very aggressively pushing back on the Haitian immigrants coming

across?

ABBOTT: Several quick points. First, they wouldn't have been in that

situation had the Biden administration enforce the immigration laws and

secured the border in the first place. Second, as you know, Chris, the

person who took those pictures said that the characterization that the

Democrats have made about the Border Patrol using them as whips, whipping

people who were coming across the border is false. They were simply

maneuvering horses.

But the last thing I will tell you is what the president said, going after

the Border Patrol, who were risking their lives and working so hard to try

to secure the border, if he takes any action against them whatsoever, I

have worked side-by-side with those Border Patrol agents. I want them to

know something. If they are at risk of losing their job at (ph) a president

who is abandoning his duty to secure the border, you have a job in the

state of Texas. I will hire you to help Texas secure our border.

WALLACE: Governor, in the time we have left, I want to ask you about two

other questions.

You signed a law in May that bans abortion after a fetal heartbeat can be

detected, around six weeks. And there is no exception and that law for

either rape or incest.

Here's what you said when you signed the law.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABBOTT: Goal number one in the state of Texas is to eliminate rape so that

no woman, no person will be a victim of rape.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Now, in 2019, which is the last year that we have numbers for,

almost 15,000 cases of rape were reported in your state of Texas, and

almost everyone says that that's a severe undercount, there are a lot more

cases that just aren't reported.

Is it reasonable to say to somebody who is the victim of rape and might not

understand that they are pregnant, you know, until six weeks, well, don't

worry about it because we're going to eliminate rape as a problem in the

state of Texas?

ABBOTT: Well, there's multiple things I have to say in answer to this. But

the first thing, obviously, is that survivors of sexual assault, they

deserve support, care, and compassion. And Texas is stepping up to make

sure that we provide that by signing a law and creating in the governor's

office a sexual assault survivors task force.

But separately from that, Chris, I got to point out about the ways that I

have fought to go to arrest and apprehend and try to eliminate rape. I

sought the death penalty for repeat rapists --

WALLACE: But -- but -- but, Governor -- Governor, excuse -- Governor,

excuse me, because we are running out of time. There were more than 15,000

rapes in 2019 when you were governor. Let me just ask this question, a

state representative, Republican state representative is -- says that he's

going to offer a new measure that would restore the exception to the Texas

abortion law for victims of rape and incest.

If that came to your desk, will you sign it or not?

ABBOTT: Well, we've got to go back, Chris, to what the reason was why the

law was passed in the first place. And the goal is to protect the lives of

every child with a heartbeat. And so we're -- we're working to achieve that

goal.

WALLACE: Including -- including a child -- including --

ABBOTT: Chris -- I -- I got to point this out, Chris, and that is what

this -- this --

WALLACE: Including a child of a rape -- of a rape?

ABBOTT: This -- this goal is consistent with what the United States

Supreme Court has written, and that is states have the ability to make sure

that we protect the health and safety of both the mother and the child. And

that's what we are seeking to do here.

And I have to add this, and that is, Texas just provided more than $100

million in funding for pregnancy centers across the state of Texas to help

those who want to make sure that they will (ph) be able to carry a child

but --

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: But so just -- just to lock this down, are

you saying, sir -- I don't mean to interrupt, but are you saying that you

will not sign an exception for rape and incest?

ABBOTT: Well, first, I've got to tell you, Chris, you're -- you're making a

hypothetical that is not going to happen because that bill is not going to

reach my desk. But, second, again, the goal is to protect the life of every

child with a heartbeat.

WALLACE: OK.

Let me -- finally, this week, former President Trump sent you an open

letter asking for an audit of the 2020 presidential election in the state

of Texas, which, we should note, he won by about 600,000 votes. Within

hours, the secretary of state of Texas, an office that you appoint, agreed

and has ordered audits in four of Texas' biggest counties.

A couple of questions. One, isn't it just a terrible waste of taxpayer

money to have an audit in a state that everybody says went fine and that

President Trump won by 600,000 votes, and aren't you contributing to this

undermining confidence in our election process?

ABBOTT: I've got to make several points about this.

One, the -- the context here, and that is, there are audits of every aspect

of government. We have a state auditor. There's a federal auditor for the

way that government operations work. Businesses that are public companies

are subject to an annual audit. Why do we audit everything in this world,

but people raised their hands in concern when we audit elections, which is

fundamental to our democracy?

Second point, now -- and that is that this -- these audits that the state

of Texas is doing, they actually began months ago because the secretary of

state of Texas has an obligation to make sure that we do conduct audits in

the state of Texas and they have to be done in a away before any evidence

about it would be a limited, which would be next September.

WALLACE: OK.

ABBOTT: And so those audits were already underway.

The last point is this, and that is, Donald Trump won the state of Texas.

We know regardless of the outcome of these audits, Donald Trump will still

have won the state of Texas.

However, we do have every single year, including in the 2020 elections,

allegations of illegal voting in places in the state of Texas.

ABBOTT: I -- I -- OK.

ABBOT: We have a responsibility to insure the integrity and confidence in

the elections in the state of Texas.

WALLACE: I would simply point out -- I would simply point out, on Thursday,

he ordered -- he asked for the audit and suddenly there were new audits

announced by the -- in four counties by the secretary of state's office

within hours of that on Thursday.

Governor Abbott, thank you. Thanks for talking with us today. Always good

to talk with you. And we'll be watching to see what happens next on the

border.

ABBOTT: Thank you.

WALLACE: Coming up, we'll bring in our Sunday group to discuss immigration

and the rollout of new COVID booster shots. Who should get them?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: Coming up, the CDC director now recommends millions of vaccinated

Americans get a booster shot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'll be getting my booster shot

-- I -- I -- it's hard to acknowledge I'm over 65, but I'll be getting my

booster shot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: We'll ask our Sunday panel whether public health officials are

following the science, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R-TX): They got word, you know, of the fact that, you

know, with the Biden administration we have an open border policy, come on

in.

REP. MAXINE WATERS (D-CA): And I'm not just unhappy with the cowboys who

were running down Haitians and using their reins to with them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: President Biden's immigration policy getting hammered by members

of Congress on both the right and left.

And it's time now for our Sunday group.

Guy Benson of Fox News Radio. Catherine Lucey, who covers the White House

for "The Wall Street Journal," and Fox News political analyst Juan

Williams.

Catherine, how worried is the Biden White House about the situation of the

border, which is bad, and particularly these last two weeks seem to be

getting worse, how worried are they about the political fallout, and do

they have any answers?

CATHERINE LUCEY, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": Well, Chris, I mean they're

coming under heavy criticism, as we just saw, from both parties.

Republicans arguing that policies are too permissive, Democrats frustrated

about the evacuation flights, and the images of these agents at the border.

You saw Secretary Mayorkas earlier in this program, you know, they're

trying to argue that they are handling it, that they are moving forward.

But certainly President Biden, on Friday, you know, said that he takes

responsibility for the situation at the border. He spoke about the images

of the agents being outrageous. I think the big thing to think about as we

look forward here is that these pressures aren't going to go away and that

they are going to continue to deal with this. They don't have a lot of

political support or allies really on the left or the right, right now. And

for the president, this moment is really testing his promise of a more

humane immigration policy.

WALLACE: Guy, the numbers are stunning. More than 1 million encounters with

people coming over the border since Joe Biden took office. And in 17 days,

30,000 Haitians coming across the border just in Del Rio, Texas.

GUY BENSON, TOWNHALL.COM AND FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: And this week your

guests, Secretary Mayorkas, testified that the border is secure. Those were

his words, which rang completely hollow. Frankly, it's sort of an insulting

assertion for him to make, but that's the talking point from an

administration that still won't call this a crisis. The north of 1 million

encounters that you cited, Chris, does not even include the tens of

thousands of known got-aways, so called, each month.

And I found it very interesting, in listening to that exchange that you had

with the secretary earlier, you asked him about the agents on horseback who

I think have been smeared with this whipping allegation that is not

supported by the evidence. He said he didn't want to get into it. He

wouldn't say if they even violated any protocol or training pending the

investigation. But his boss, the president, this week, in the sound bite

that you played, said that they will pay for the horrifying behavior. So

that's a very different answer, much less circumspect, than the answer you

got from the secretary this morning.

WALLACE: Juan, I want to talk about -- about this issue that -- that

Catherine raised about Biden wanting a policy that's more humane. Is it

humane? I know you were no fan of President Trump's immigration policy, but

is it humane to create a policy that allows -- that -- that creates magnets

so that you end up with 30,000 people crossing the border in Del Rio,

Texas, and huddling under that bridge in squalid conditions?

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Chris, I don't think that

it's the case that President Biden has created a magnet with his

immigration policy. I think that it's clearly the case that he is -- his

tone is far different than the protest kind of inhumane rhetoric we heard

from President Trump, ripping families apart and the like and talking about

a wall. But to Democrats and Republicans, I think everyone will tell you

that, in fact, Biden's policies on immigration are far closer to Trump's in

terms of the aggressive policing, the high number of people who are

deported, who are put out then certainly the Democrats are comfortable

with. We saw that this week. That's why you're saying both sides are

critical of Biden's policies.

But, again, remember, we saw surges previous to this, previous to Biden.

Right now the Haitians are fleeing desperate situations. Some of it sort of

the global economic consequence of COVID and the -- the natural catastrophe

that's hit Haiti. But all of that is to say that you have an migrant

situation where in this country known people who have legitimate cases for

asylum, people who are desperate and fleeing violence or catastrophe, are

getting turned back, in many cases, and, you know, unlike Trump, the system

is not being starved, so they're being processed and then people say you

have a crisis.

WALLACE: Right.

WILLIAMS: Well, the fact is, again, that those people, under law, should be

given their process. Congress should act if they want to change the law.

WALLACE: All right, let's turn, in the time we have left in this segment,

to another big story, and that was the final approval for Pfizer vaccines

for certain groups of people starting right away after six months.

Here was President Biden on all of that this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The majority of Americans, who

were fully vaccinated with the Pfizer vaccine, are now able to receive a

booster shot six months after they've received their second shot. Six

months after you receive the second shot, you're eligible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Catherine, there certainly were some bumps in the road. First the

president said it would start on September 20th. He said it would be for

everybody who had been vaccinated. It's been delayed. It's been

constricted.

Does the Biden White House think that, in the end, folks are going to

forget all of those bumps and just be happy they can get another booster?

LUCEY: That's the question, right, Chris? I mean we know from polling that

booster shots are widely popular with vaccinated Americans, but we also

have heard in our reporting from some administration officials concerned

that this back-and-forth and the sort of shifting message, you know, could

create confusion among Americans. And so that's a real issue. And that has

opened them up to some criticism.

Obviously, you know, the president, you know, earlier suggesting that this

would be more widely available. The White House says that they always try

to make clear that they would wait for the final, you know, scientific

ruling. But this has raised questions about, you know, whether he is sort

of keeping his promise to follow the science here.

WALLACE: All right, panel, we have to take a break here. But, up next,

Democrats are working on a tight deadline to avoid a government shutdown

and a default on our debt that could potentially tank the economy. Will

they make the deadline?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know, people, understandably

-- well, you know, it started off at 6 trillion, now it's 3.5 trillion, now

it's -- is it going to be 2.9, is it -- it's going to be zero. Zero.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: President Biden trying to play down the cost of his massive social

spending plan, and we're back now with the panel.

Juan, this is the new White House line that they have rolled out. Instead

of defending the $3.5 trillion tax and spending bill, the new argument is,

well, it's going to be zero because they're going to pay for it by raising

taxes. But -- but whether you pay for it by taxes or by borrowing, it's

still a $3.5 trillion tax and spending bill is still it $3.5 trillion tax

and spending bill.

WILLIAMS: Yes, but, of course, they're talking, Chris, in terms of the debt

and the deficit and it doesn't, in fact, raise the debt or the deficit. You

know, you look back -- obviously, the Democrats are, at the Trump years,

and you saw a $7 trillion hike in terms of debt and deficit because it

wasn't paid for. And the consequence was that, you know, we have an

escalating debt and deficit that is a concern to every economist in the

world.

Right now, what the Biden people are saying is, you can raise the corporate

tax, I think it's from 21 now to 25. That's less than it's been for the

last 30 years. And you can raise taxes on people who make more than

400,000. And at this time of high economic inequity, that's very popular

with the American people. So I don't think that -- I don't think that's --

you can argue about zero, but you can't argue that it has some impact on

the debt. And that's the Biden point.

WALLACE: Catherine, we should point out, first of all, that on another

Sunday talk show this morning, Speaker Nancy Pelosi said that she expressed

real confidence that this week that the House will pass the $1.2 trillion

bipartisan infrastructure plan.

Now, President Biden, on your beat, the White House, met with all the

factions in the Democratic Party, House and Senate, liberals and -- and

moderates, trying to work both on bipartisan infrastructure and also on

this -- yes, I'm not going to call it a zero tax and spending bill, but the

$3.5 trillion tax and spending bill.

How confident are they? Are they as confident as Nancy Pelosi they're going

to get the infrastructure bill through this week and the $3.5 trillion soon

to follow?

LUCEY: Well, certainly it's crunch time for all of this. I mean this is

going to be a massive week for the president's agenda and, you know,

whether his domestic plans can move forward.

The White House is privately still, you know, saying they're optimistic.

They feel good about the way his talks went last week. He met, obviously,

with the leaders, but also with key moderates and progressives. We know

that, you know, he has been making clear that some flexibility on the

overall number and, you know, when he met with moderates, he spoke about

possibly -- they discussed whether this could go to less than 3 trillion.

So, they are still negotiating. I mean this is not done yet. But they are -

- they are pleased that things are still moving, that they are still

talking. Obviously Pelosi is exposing (INAUDIBLE) confidence.

But this -- there are still clear divides. There are still policy divides

that are not resolved. This is a very heavy lift to trying and do all of

these things this week. And we're going to see, it's really going to be a

test of the president's, you know, negotiating and managing skills within

his party. He ran as someone who was a veteran lawmaker who could really

manage tough situations like this. So we're going to see how he does.

WALLACE: You know, as big as these two bills are, that's not the real

deadline this week. The immediate deadline is at 12:01 a.m. on Friday

morning, the U.S. federal government runs out of money unless they at least

pass a continuing resolution to keep it funded and Democrats have decided

to link the government funding bill with another measure that would raise

the debt limit because the government is in danger of defaulting on its

debt, probably sometime in mid-to-late October.

The Senate Republican leader, Mitch McConnell, has made it pretty clear he

don't like this idea. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): If Washington Democrats want to jam through

trillions of dollars in reckless spending all by themselves, they can raise

the debt limit all by themselves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Guy, it may be smart politics, but given the fact that much of the

debt -- the debt limit would be raised to deal with was incurred under

President Trump, isn't it irresponsible for Mitch McConnell to say, ah, you

know, we're wiping our hands of raising the debt limit?

BENSON: Well, it's a political strategy, Chris, in a political town that is

currently completely run by the other party, the Democratic Party. Far be

it for me to question the strategy and the tactics of Mitch McConnell.

Generally, I would say he has thought about these things harder and longer

than I have, or most people have. And he's a pretty brilliant and shrewd

tactician.

I would say, overall, I think those things are going to happen. The

government's going to be funded. The debt ceiling is going to be raised.

The Democrats can do those things on their own if they choose to prioritize

them.

I'm more interested to see the sequencing and the total dollar amount on

the infrastructure bill that's bipartisan. When that gets voted on, does it

come first, does it come second. And then on reconciliation, does that top

line number come down far enough to assuage the moderates where they get

something across the finish line? My suspicion is, knowing Nancy Pelosi's

track record of whipping votes, my suspicion is they will get there. I

don't know where "there" is, what exactly it's going to look like, but I am

less confident in that prediction than I was even a few weeks ago because

the fault lines very much exist and it seems like Pelosi recognizes this

thing could fall apart, so she set up this pressure cooker of a week with

everything on the table this coming week with a big high-stakes meeting

tomorrow among House Democrats in the evening. It will be fascinating to

watch.

And I think the McConnell position is, Republicans should do nothing to

throw a lifeline to the Democrats so long as they are sort of at war, or at

least in conflict with one another.

WALLACE: Juan, you know, I want to pick up on something that Guy said. You

would have gone broke a long time ago betting against Mitch McConnell and

his mastery of the process. Whether you think it's fair or not, in the end,

will Democrats have to raise the debt ceiling on their own?

WILLIAMS: It looks that way, Chris, because I think McConnell wants

leverage to run a political ad blaming the Democrats and making them into

big spenders. By the way, note, he has no demands as to, oh, you should do

this or do that so Republicans can cooperate and the government can

continue to function. I think this is an example where Republicans know,

you know, look, we've done this in the past for other presidents,

Republicans and Democrats. They know what's right. But right now they're

all about the politics.

WALLACE: What a -- what an amazing thing, the politics in Washington, D.C.

And it says something to you folks that we're so excited by this pressure

cooker of budget bills in Congress this week.

Thank you, panel. See you next Sunday.

Up next, our "Power Player of the Week," the Virginia sheriff's officer

trying to save the historic ground where his ancestor earned our nation's

highest military honor.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: There are American battlefields synonymous with heroism, and then

there are battlefields that may be one day if we're able to preserve them

and tell their stories.

Here's our "Power Player of the Week."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LT. DAMON RADCLIFFE, YORK-POQUOSON SHERIFF'S OFFICE: It's a part of

American history. It's a part of that family history.

How are you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good. How are you?

WALLACE: Sheriff Lieutenant Damon Radcliffe on the importance of preserving

Civil War battlefields, like these fields outside of Richmond, Virginia,

where the Battle of Newmarket Heights was fought. Radcliffe's great-great-

grandfather, Edward, is one of 14 black union soldiers who earned the Medal

of Honor there.

RADCLIFFE: You have people fighting to make their own decisions, make their

own choices. It's important that we continue to learn from history so that

we can continue to grow as a country and come together.

WALLACE: It's a legacy Radcliffe first learned about watching the movie

"Glory" as a kid.

RADCLIFFE: So, my grandfather, he explained to me that, you know, we had a

relative that fought in the Civil War. It was really surreal to watch what

they had to go through, how they kept pressing on regardless of their

treatment.

WALLACE: Damon started researching his ancestor's story.

RADCLIFFE: Edward was a slave on the Hankins (ph) farm. He left the farm.

He walks down to Yorktown, where he joins the -- the union army.

This is where it all began.

WALLACE: And it turned out Edward fought in a field near where Damon is now

a law enforcement officer.

RADCLIFFE: And that's where I am today. And I'm walking possibly where he

walked.

WALLACE: The battle took place at sunrise it September of 1864, in thick

fog described as a mental of death. Edward's brigade was fighting to

capture high ground when his commanding officer was shot.

RADCLIFFE: His white commanding officer had succumbed to his injuries from

confederate artillery. It was at that point that he led his battalion into

the confederate stronghold.

WALLACE (on camera): That must fill you with enormous pride.

RADCLIFFE: Yes, it does. I mean it's -- it's -- it's a sense of bravery.

It's a sense of courage. If they were captured, then they were either going

to be returned to a state of slavery or killed.

WALLACE (voice over): Radcliffe visited the battlefield recently with his

brother, a Marine, yet another Radcliffe in public service. There are

traces of Edward's story in document, but not much.

WALLACE (on camera): Where is Edward's Medal of Honor?

RADCLIFFE: We don't know where it is at this point.

WALLACE: No picture?

RADCLIFFE: No pictures currently. But memories will always continue --

continue on. The story will always continue on. That's what this is about.

WALLACE (voice over): The U.S. loses about an acre of land like this every

hour. Most drivers whizzing by the new Market Heights Battlefield don't

know they're passing part of our nation's heritage.

Radcliffe is working with the American Battlefield Trust to change that,

part of keeping faith with his family's history.

RADCLIFFE: I hope that it helps people realize what their families could

have accomplished and maybe they're not looking in the right places and

there are resources out there for them to, you know, research their

families, see what their family history was about and see where -- where it

can possibly lead them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: One hundred and seventy-nine thousand black men volunteered to

fight in the union army, close to 37,000 of them gave their lives.

And that's it for today. Have a great week and we'll see you next FOX NEWS

SUNDAY.

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