Panel on Biden's response to growing Russia-Ukraine tension
Sen. Joni Ernst, R-Iowa, and former under Secretary of Defense for policy Michèle Flournoy discuss possible actions to take if Russia invades Ukraine.
This is a rush transcript of "Fox News Sunday" on December 5, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I'm Chris Wallace.
President Biden and Russia's Vladimir Putin will hold a superpower phone
call Tuesday as tensions grow over Ukraine.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't accept anybody's red
line.
WALLACE (voice-over): The White House expressing concern. Putin's massive
buildup of troops along the border with Ukraine could signal plans for an
invasion.
We'll discuss the standoff with Senate Armed Services Committee member Joni
Ernst, and former Pentagon official Michelle Flournoy. And we'll get
analysis from our Sunday panel here at the Reagan National Defense Forum.
Then --
Just how much of a threat is China?
We'll talk about how to keep law and order in space with the vice chief of
the Space Force, General David Thompson, only on "FOX News Sunday".
And --
BIDEN: Experts say that COVID-19 cases will continue to rise in the weeks
ahead in this winter. So, we need to be ready.
WALLACE: The president urges Americans to get behind his plan to tackle
new COVID variant, Omicron, while still fighting a surge in Delta. We'll
ask U.S. surgeon general, Vivek Murthy, what it means for boosters, masks,
and mandates.
Plus, our Power Player of the week, the man Nancy Reagan chose to make sure
her husband's legacy lives on.
All, right now, on "FOX News Sunday".
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE (on camera): You are looking live at the Air Force One Pavilion at
the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, California.
And welcome to a special hour of "FOX News Sunday" from the Reagan National
Defense Forum.
Each year, key national security figures meet here to discuss threats the
U.S. faces around the world. But this weekend, the focus is on one
challenge -- Vladimir Putin's massive buildup of Russian troops along the
border with Ukraine. U.S. Intelligence warns about invasion next year.
On Tuesday, President Biden will hold a video call with Putin trying to
head off an international crisis.
Here at the forum, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin addressed the situation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LLOYD AUSTIN, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: In terms of our concern, we're very
concerned. It's something we are going to remain focused on going forward.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Throughout this hour, we'll drill down into foreign policy
threats in Ukraine and around the world. And to start, let's bring in David
Spunt at the White House on the latest on the standoff between the U.S. and
Russia.
DAVID SPUNT, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Chris, tensions between Moscow and
Kiev go back decades. But things today appear to be coming to a head. Now,
President Biden is getting personally involved.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SPUNT (voice-over): President Biden looking to press concerns Russia could
invade Ukraine. Russia has more than 100,000 troops along the border.
BIDEN: My expectation is we're going to have a long discussion with Putin.
SPUNT: Just days ago, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky says that his
team discovered a Russian coup plot that would take him out.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: What we have to know is that we
are in complete control of our borders and fully ready for escalation.
SPUNT: Some kind of escalation appears eminent. Defense Secretary Lloyd
Austin saying that the U.S. has helped shore up Ukraine.
AUSTIN: We have provided them with a number of different things over the
years, including lethal capability, a lot of nonlethal capability.
SPUNT: Russia is trying to block Ukraine from joining NATO. Biden and
Vladimir Putin met face-to-face in a June summit. Publicly, Putin has and
continues to praise Biden, saying recently Biden is a professional coup
who, quote, doesn't miss a thing.
They admit that flattery only goes so far, and President Biden will tell
Putin to back off and recognize Ukrainian sovereignty.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SPUNT (on camera): The president will also reportedly speak to his
Ukrainian counterpart, another way to lower the temperature and avoid a
superpower confrontation -- Chris.
WALLACE: David Spunt, reporting from the White House, David, thank you.
Earlier here at the Reagan Defense Forum, I sat down with Republican
Senator Joni Ernst, the first female combat veteran elected to the Senate
who is now a member of the Armed Services Committee. And also Michele
Flournoy, former secretary of defense under President Obama.
And we began with the growing crisis on Ukraine's border.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: Senator, Michele, welcome to "FOX News Sunday".
MICHELE FLOURNOY, FORMER U.S. UNDER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR POLICY: Thank
you, very much.
WALLACE: Senator, what do you think Vladimir Putin is up to here? Do you
really think that he intends to invade Ukraine? And what should President
Biden tell him on Tuesday? I mean, we're not going to go to war with Russia
over Ukraine.
SEN. JONI ERNST (R-IA): It's hard to know what Vladimir Putin is thinking
and what his true intentions are. But we do see a very aggressive action on
his part amassing his troops on the Ukrainian border. So, we must prepare
for the worst, not knowing what those intentions are.
I do think that President Biden needs to be very clear and very strong in
his message to Vladimir Putin. He needs to say to Vladimir Putin, that we
are no longer going to allow you to continue with the Nord Stream 2
pipeline, we need you to know and understand that we will defend Ukraine,
we will provide them assistance. He needs to make that very clear.
WALLACE: Here is Secretary of State Blinken this week talking about the
threat of Russia and Ukraine. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We've made it clear to the
Kremlin that we will respond resolutely, including with a range of high
impact economic measures that we've refrained from using in the past.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Michele, that's what we keep hearing from both the Biden
administration and from the European Union talk of economic sanctions, talk
of political sanctions, pretty much, it's obvious, although not explicit,
that military option is off the table. That's never stopped Putin before?
FLOURNOY: Well, I think what the administration is actively considering
with our allies is an escalating set of sanctions that go beyond what's
been done before. I'm sure they are looking at sanctioning the banking
system, sanctioning the energy sector, possibly cutting off Russia from the
SWIFT System, which enables all of their international financial
transactions.
So, they're looking at much more serious means. And my expectation would be
that on Tuesday, during the call, a President Biden will lay out to
President Putin, these are the kinds of things you're going to face, much
greater level of pain than anything you faced over Crimea, or what have
you.
Ukraine is a sovereign nation, the invasion of Ukraine would be -- and
particularly going beyond what Putin did before, would be, you know, a very
serious breach of international security and would merit a huge response,
not just from the U.S., but from Europe and the international community.
WALLACE: Senator Ernst, I want to pick up on something you said earlier.
If there's one thing that Vladimir Putin really wants now, it's the
completion of the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline to Germany. Here's what
Senator Tom Cotton, one of your Republican colleagues had to say about that
this week, take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TOM COTTON, (R) ARKANSAS: Now, in a situation where all of Western
Europe is hooked on German gas, and Vladimir Putin is about to invade
Ukraine, and the best we can get is stern words.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Senator, what do you think of the chances that Congress could
override the President and block the pipeline and that you could get
Democrats and Republicans joining together to override President Biden?
ERNST: Well, I certainly can't speak for the House, Chris. But I do
believe that there is coalescence around these types of actions in the
United States Senate. Democrats are concerned, Republicans are concerned.
And what we don't want to do is allow President Putin to continue with the
pipeline, especially as he is preparing perhaps, to invade Ukraine. So, we
do have to push back on that. And I think that there is a large group of
United States senators that will push back on Vladimir Putin.
WALLACE: Yeah, I mean, this is an ongoing fight in the Senate, Michele.
President Biden is trying to stop Congress from blocking the pipeline is a
time in this kind of situation, you talked about taking sanctions that
haven't been taken so far. Is it time for President Biden to reverse
course, and threatened to block the pipeline?
FLOURNOY: You know, I think the combination of sanctions that are being
considered would be even more powerful than the mess, the signal of
blocking that pipeline. Remember what Putin is trying to do here, one of
his objectives is to divide the United States in Europe.
So, we have got -- if we're going to maintain unity, transatlantic unity,
to implement very severe sanctions, we've got to work with our European
partners, and that includes Germany. And so, I would urge the Senate to
think about that. But if you get satisfaction on blocking Nord Stream 2,
you might -- I actually undermine the effectiveness of the sanctions that
the President is threatening would be, hopefully threatening to put in
place against Putin.
WALLACE: There are other foreign policy threats, Senator Ernst. China is
involved in a huge military buildup now both on the ground and also in
space, this new hypersonic missile. How should we deal with the growing
threat from China?
ERNST: There are so many ways that we should be dealing with, to
threatened China, whether it is in the cyberspace, cyber domain, whether it
is disruption to their Belt and Road Initiatives all around the globe, and
certainly their build off of manmade islands in the South China Sea, their
incursions on Taiwan and Taiwanese airspace, all of this we can do in a
number of manners.
But of course, militarily, making sure that we're maintaining freedom of
navigation is extremely important, making sure that we're countering any
cyber threats to our systems, banking our utilities and so forth, pushing
back on that.
But also, a very clear message from the President to President Xi would be
extremely helpful. I think we had a last opportunity when President Biden
requested to visit with President Xi. And yet, President Xi is the one that
seems to take center stage and maintain his dominance.
We have to be very strong and clear on our message to China, that while we
want to engage you in trade and other activities, we can't allow any
nefarious types of activities.
WALLACE: Finally, Iran, Senator Ernst, you have made a clear, so I'm not
going to ask you about it, that you think it's a big mistake for the U.S.
to get back into the Iran nuclear deal.
Michele, you know, we're talking about a situation that has changed so
dramatically since President Trump pulled out of the deal. Iran is now up
to 60 percent enrichment of uranium. It has an array of advanced
centrifuges.
Is it too late to go back to the deal? Has the genie already gone out and
left the bottle? And it's impossible to put it back inside?
FLOURNOY: Yeah. Well, I think what the mess we're seeing today is a result
of the U.S. withdrawal from the deal, which started Iran back on --
WALLACE: But we are where we are.
FLOURNOY: But we are where we are.
You know, I wish I could say that I was optimistic that we could get back
to the deal. But all indications coming out of the negotiations are that
remains a remote possibility. So now, we're in a situation of having to
figure out with our allies, how do we deal with an Iran that is positioning
itself to raise for a nuclear weapon, and continuing to support terrorism
throughout the region?
So, Iran is going to be reasserting itself as a bigger problem for U.S.
foreign policy from the coming years.
WALLACE: So, basically, does it come down to, we're going to have to let
Israel handle the problem for us?
FLOURNOY: Well, I don't think we should have Israel, this -- all be on
Israel shoulders. I think the United States and our other partners in the
region, along with Israel, need to come up with a new approach if they
negotiate, they're going to --
WALLACE: But do you think it's reversible, or do you think Iran is now
just on the path --
FLOURNOY: Oh, it's always reversible. The key is getting, how do you
really affect their calculus? And I think this regime has sort of dug in
its heels, again, hoping to split us from our allies and get others to
compromise with them. And we've just got to keep working the problem. But
I'm not hopeful in the near term.
WALLACE: Michele Flournoy, Senator Joni Ernst, thank you both so much.
It's a busy and dangerous world out there.
ERNST: Thank you.
FLOURNOY: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: Up next from the Reagan library, we'll bring in our Sunday group
to discuss the standoff between Joe Biden and Vladimir Putin.
And the potential fallout if the Supreme Court decides the biggest abortion
case in years and overturns Roe v. Wade.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AUSTIN: He knows President Putin very well. Again, I think there is a lot
of space here for diplomacy and leadership to work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin here at the Reagan National
Defense Forum previewing President Biden's Tuesday call with Vladimir
Putin. It's time now for our Sunday group here in Simi Valley. GOP
strategist Karl Rove and FOX News national security correspondent, Jennifer
Griffin.
Welcome.
JENNIFER GRIFFIN, FOX NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Thank you.
WALLACE: Jennifer, how worried are they at the Pentagon about this massive
buildup of Russian troops on the Ukraine border? Did they really think that
Vladimir Putin might invade Ukraine or did they think he is using the build
up as a bargaining chip?
GRIFFIN: They're taking it very seriously. I can tell you that I've had
conversations with senior leaders at the Pentagon. They've had principals
meeting at the White House, in the Situation Room on Friday to discuss how
to respond. They're taking it extremely seriously.
I've been told this a qualitatively different buildup than we saw last
spring. There are more troops expected, about 114,000 there now. We think
there could be up to 175,000 the start of the year.
Remember, the ground is very soft right now. So, the tanks can't go across
into Ukraine, but when that ground hardens, there's a belief that Vladimir
Putin is very serious this time, very different in terms of the reserve
buildup.
WALLACE: Karl, Ukraine is not part of NATO. It doesn't fall under Article
Five, an attack against one is an attack against all. We're not going to go
to war, a land war in Ukraine with Russia, are we? And assuming we don't,
what can we do short of a military response to stop Putin from an invasion?
KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, look, we have economic tools and
that the administration is already saying it has a vast array of tools that
it can bring to bear on this, including cutting off access to the
international banking system.
Let's be clear. If Russia invades Ukraine and takes Ukraine, a sovereign
nation, in the center of Europe, this is a grave setback and for the United
States and its interest. It's also message. This is going to -- if this
happens and the administration fails to stop it, then what's going to stop
Putin from taking the Baltics? What kind of the discouragement is that
going to be? What's a signal to China with regard to Taiwan or North Korea
with regard to South Korea?
If we don't stop this, there could be great consequences down the line.
WALLACE: Now, when you say don't stop this, is there enough political
sanctions and economic sanctions to stop it?
ROVE: Well, the one thing we don't really know is how good have our NATO
allies and the United States done in shoring up the Ukrainian military so
it can provide a strong response to any attempt to take over the country.
WALLACE: I want to turn over to another big story this week and that was
the Supreme Court hearing, that big Mississippi abortion case. The
conservative majority of justices seem to indicate that there's a
possibility that they either might severely restrict Roe v. Wade or
overturn it entirely. And the reaction to that was both immediate and
intense.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: For nearly half a century, every
woman, every American deserves access to health care, including
reproductive health care.
REP. STEVE SCALISE (R-LA): There are at least a dozen states that have
laws in the books today that if this case in Mississippi is upheld, those
states get to defend life immediately in ways that they weren't prior to
today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Karl, because of the fact that abortion is legal now, at least in
the early months of pregnancy, it has been much more of a mobilizing issue
for the pro-life movement than it has been for the pro-choice movement. But
if that were to change, if Roe is severely restricted or if it is
completely elevated by a Supreme Court ruling, let's say, comes out in June
or July, what's a political impact as we head into the midterms?
ROVE: Well, we don't really know because what the decision is, if the
decision returns it to the states, which is the most likely outcome,
whether it's restrictive or undermines Casey and Roe both in toto, it's
going to go back to the states. So, this is now going to be a battle that's
fought out by state by state, in the state legislative races.
But, you know, there are going to be some victories for the pro-life
forces, there are going to be some defeats if it goes to the states given
the nature of the legislatures. But let's remember this, we don't really
know how big this is going to be. In Virginia, it became a big issue. Terry
McAuliffe said, if you like Youngkin as governor, this is going to
undermine it. Only 8 percent of the people in the exit poll said this was
their voting issue and they broke 58-41 for Youngkin.
Similarly, we had in Texas, a woman who ran for governor in 2014 who made
her entire issue, abortion, and she lost the governor's race by 20 points.
So, we don't know how it's going to play out, but there will be some
winners and losers on both sides because it will be at the state level.
WALLACE: Jennifer, Republicans seem headed for a very good midterm
election night, likely taking back the House, possibly taking back the
Senate. If you get a big change in Roe v. Wade, does that have a
possibility of flipping that political equation?
GRIFFIN: Well, I think it does. Let's think about what happened. On
Friday, they actually took an initial vote in the Supreme Court. They had
their conference. They probably already know how this is decided. They will
take the next nine months to write the decision and it will come out in
June. And that is just months before these midterm elections.
It is likely to deepen the divide between red states and blue states. I
think there is one very important number that I saw, 21 states have
abortion bans on the books. If Roe is overturned or weakened, those
abortion bans will affect 65 million women and three of those states are
states, Michigan, Arizona and Wisconsin, that were decided in single digits
in 2016 at 2020. I think this is the one issue that could motivate the
Democratic base and I think that it actually will be a shot of adrenaline
for the Democratic Party going into midterms.
WALLACE: Yeah, let me pick up on that and push back with Karl, but I'm
going to give you a chance to respond, as you will. You know, one of the
things we saw with Glenn Youngkin's victory is that suburban women moved
away from Trump to Biden came back for the Republican Youngkin who seemed
more moderate. But I wonder and I wonder what you think about this, the
possibility that it energizes these swing voters if they lose. A lot of
them are pro-choice, lose that option by Supreme Court ruling?
GRIFFIN: I think you have to look at suburban women. And I think if you
look at the statistics, ABC/"Washington Post" poll does that 60 percent of
the countries pro-choice. I think this is one issue that could really
motivate suburban women and those independent voters you're going to have
to look at.
WALLACE: Karl?
ROVE: Well, 65 percent of the "AP" polls say that they believe that
abortion should be restricted in second trimester and only 19 percent say
abortion should be allowed most or all abortions in the third trimester.
We're not a -- you know, we're not the character of either, pro --
infanticide or no abortion at all. We're somewhere else in between.
And the question is going to be, how is it fought out? But the idea that
someone stands up and says we went to an unrestricted right to abortion
right up to the moment that the child is born is not going to be accepted
by the American people.
WALLACE: No, I completely agree with you with that, but that's not what
we're talking about here, because what we're talking about is the
possibility that the Supreme Court might say there is no protection --
constitutional protection for women. It's a state-by-state issue at all.
There's no constitutional right to an abortion at any point.
ROVE: Right. But that leaves it up to the states to determine the medical
procedure. And states will make different determinations. Will this have an
effect on the election? Yes. I think it will impact in any individual races
for governor and state legislature far more than it will for the United
States Senate or the U.S. House.
And again, let's not kid ourselves. We are not a country that says we want
an unlimited right to abortion. As I say, 19 percent, one out of every five
American says, yeah, we ought to have a right to an abortion in the third
trimester. Two out of three Americans says we ought to limit it in the
second trimester and the number goes higher in the first trimester.
WALLACE: Jennifer?
GRIFFIN: I think, politically, this is still a shot of adrenaline for the
Democrats. I think you'll start seeing ballot initiatives in states. It
will take up a lot of airtime in these elections, and I think that there
will be more talk about expanding the court among Democrats.
ROVE: Already is.
WALLACE: I've less than a minute, Karl. I know it's dangerous to predict
what the court is going to do base on the questions that justices asked
during hearings. But it did seem that while Justice Roberts, as a chief
justice, was talking but incremental change. Some of the other justices
were talking about a bigger change, maybe even eliminating Roe v. Wade.
How -- I know it's a guess, how sweeping, how big a ruling do you expect
from the court?
ROVE: Oh, I don't know. I mean, I think -- I think there's likely to be at
least restrictions on the standard in Casey. But remember what the
questions largely were about. The most pointed questions were, where in the
Constitution is their right to abortion? From where in the Constitution
does this drive?
What the court is attempting to do is to being the monitor of abortion laws
in America and leave it up to the people through their elected
representatives at the state level.
WALLACE: That would seem to portend a bigger, more sweeping ruling.
Panel, thank you. We'll see back in Washington next week. Thanks for a
great spot here, huh? It doesn't get better.
Up next, a week after South Africa sounds the alarm about a new COVID
variant, Omicron has spread around the world and here to the U.S. We'll ask
surgeon general, Dr. Vivek Murthy, about new plans to fight the virus we
come back from the Reagan Presidential Library.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WALLACE: Coming up, a superpower arms race in space among the U.S., Russia
and China.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: If the Space Force is the new sheriff in town, how do you keep
law and order in that kind of situation?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: I sit down with the vice chair of the Space Force, when we come
right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Welcome back to the Reagan National Defense
Forum.
And now, the latest on another developing story. The highly mutated COVID
variant, Omicron, has now been detected in 44 countries and has spread to
16 states here in the U.S. Health officials are racing to learn more about
the new variant, while also dealing with another surge of the Delta virus.
Joining us now, U.S. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy.
Doctor, it's been a little bit more than a week since the world first
learned about this Omicron variant, and I want to go over some of the
initial findings so far. The variant is spreading more than twice as fast
as Delta. It's three times more likely to cause reinfections among people
who've had COVID, and it shares a genetic code with the common cold.
So, compared to a week ago when we first learned the name Omicron, how much
more have we learned about the transmissibility of this disease, the
severity of the disease from Omicron and the potential that it could evade
and beat the vaccines that we now have?
DR. VIVEK MURTHY, U.S. SURGEON GENERAL: Well, Chris, we have -- we continue
to learn a lot about Omicron. We've seen certainly that there has been
spread around the world and in our country. It's something we expected.
We've seen this with other variants.
And we've been in close dialogue with our colleagues in South Africa, in a
frequent basis, to understand what they are seeing.
Chris, even though they are certainly seeing cases go up and they've seen
an increase in hospitalizations, they have cautioned us as we have with
others to not draw immediate conclusions from initial data sets or from
anecdotes that you hear.
So, to the question of whether the increased of spread is driven by, you
know, greater transmissibility or whether it's being driven by a different
sensitivity to vaccine protections and protection from prior infection, the
exact mix there of contributors is not known.
The bottom line is this is what we do know. We do know that the measures
that we take to protect ourselves from the spread of COVID, including
wearing masks and indoor spaces, being in well-ventilated spaces, those
work and will work against Omicron.
We also know that with vaccines, Chris, that even though we are trying to
figure out the exact level of protection our vaccines will give against
Omicron, in every case, we have seen the vaccinated are better off,
particularly more protected against hospitalization and death than the
unvaccinated. It's why we are urging people to get vaccinated and boosted.
WALLACE: Just briefly on this, you talk about masks. Are you saying now
that if you're with people that you don't know that we should go back
routinely to wearing a mask indoors?
MURTHY: Well, certainly, what we've been seeing actually since the
summertime is that if you are vaccinated or unvaccinated and gathered with
people outside your household in indoor spaces, that wearing a mask is the
recommended step to take to help reduce the potential for spread. It
protects you, but it also protects the people around you.
WALLACE: You know, I know that you -- you're a scientist and you want to
play this very carefully, but people are following this awfully closely.
So, let me just ask you this, Doctor, and I hope you can give us some
transparency.
From what you have learned so far as compared to a week ago, are you more
or less worried about Omicron?
MURTHY: Well, Chris, you know, I certainly am concerned about the
possibility that this is going to spread, you know, more easily than other
variants that we've seen to date and we've got to get more data like I said
to understand the exact extent of that.
But I do think it's a reason for us to not necessarily panic, but just to
be more vigilant and to recognize that the precautions that we have been
talking about for the last year or so are all the more important now than
ever, because keep in mind, and it's not just Omicron, Chris. We are
predominantly dealing with a Delta challenge right now. We've got the Delta
variant in this country which is causing an average of close to 100,000
cases a day.
And as winter, you know, approaches and people go indoors, it's possible
that number -- those numbers, you know, may go up, unless we take the
precautions that are necessary like getting vaccinated and wearing those
masks. So, to me, this is a cause --
WALLACE: But let me --
MURTHY: -- for being even more vigilant, but not for panicking.
WALLACE: Let me pick up on that. President Biden announced several new
measures this week to fight COVID, to fight all of the variants.
And I want to put it up on the screen. A tougher testing protocol for
international travel, an extension of masks on public transportation,
insurance coverage for at-home tests.
But a doctor that worked with you on the Biden transition task force, Dr.
Celine Gounder, said this week that she wishes that President Biden had
been even tougher, especially on domestic air travel when it comes to
vaccines and masks.
Your thoughts about that?
MURTHY: Well, I think international and domestic travel are, in fact,
different. On the international front, as you mentioned, there's a number
of measures we have taken like vaccine requirements, requiring testing
before people get on those flights.
From a domestic standpoint, what you have seen is that if people do, in
fact, wear masks, well-fitted, good quality masks, they can actually
significantly reduce their risk on domestic flights.
And, finally, just keep in mind this: we've taken a number of measures
domestically to insure that we increase vaccination rates which is
ultimately our key to ending this pandemic. Whether that's the
requirements, you know, in workplaces, whether that's -- you know, the
availability of vaccines that we made which is really quite unprecedented.
And we'll continue to do that.
And we just -- on the last week, the president announced, in fact, that we
are getting pharmacies to offer even more slots. We are sending reminders
to millions of Americans about the importance of getting vaccinated and
boosted. And we're setting up hundreds of family clinics, of kids and
adults getting vaccinated at the same time.
So, these are strong measures we put in place and, you know, I think we've
continually shown a desire to use every lever we have to make sure that
people are protected, they're vaccinated, and we get to the end of this
pandemic as quickly as we can.
WALLACE: President Biden has been aggressive about vaccine mandates on
government and health workers, on the military, on companies that have more
than 100 employees. But I don't have to tell you, the courts have blocked a
number of those.
Here's what the president said announcing his new set of COVID fighting
measures this week. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: While my existing federal
vaccination requirements are being reviewed by the courts, this plan does
not expand or add to those mandates.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Why did the president feel they need it to say more mandates? Is
he backing off of them? I mean, there were no new mandates when a lot of
people expected there would be.
MURTHY: No. I -- look, I think that he feels very strongly that the
measures that he put forward will meaningfully move us forward, you know?
And the requirements that we have in place, you know, will continue to do
that.
But we know that this -- this effort is about more than requirements. It's
also about making sure people have the information they need to get
vaccinated, that they have access to the vaccine. And that's why you see a
focus on some of those areas and doubling down on those other areas in his
plan. But you have to -- putting this altogether, Chris, I think that the
measures he announced are going to help us for the winter.
And I just want to make sure people understand this very clearly, we are
not back in March 2020 despite the prospect of a new variant Omicron on the
horizon and despite the fact that we found cases here. We have more tools.
We have more knowledge to protect ourselves. It's why the holidays this
year I believe will be and already have been very different than the
holidays in 2020.
I've been able to take my kids trick-or-treating for Halloween. I got
together with family for Thanksgiving. Millions of Americans did the same.
We can gather safely for the holidays and these measures will help us do
the same.
WALLACE: How do you feel about the fact that the courts are blocking the
mandates? What -- what is the potential fallout from that, the vaccine
mandates?
And along those lines, we now find out that up to 19,000 members of the
Navy and the Marines have not met the November 28th deadline for getting
vaccines and their cases are going to be reviewed on an individual basis.
But we're talking about the crew that would be needed, 19,000, to staff
four aircraft carriers.
We can't afford to lose those 19,000 marines and sailors because of this
mandate, can we?
MURTHY: Well, Chris, I'm glad you asked because what we are committed to
doing is working with every federal employee, in military and civilian, to
make sure that they are vaccinated and they have the information that they
need to be vaccinated. And, again, this is not a cliff. You know, if people
don't make the deadline, we will work with them to make figure how to get
them there.
But I also want -- we keep this in perspective, which is a vast, vast
majority, well over 90 percent of the federal workforce is vaccinated and
in compliance. And that includes the military, it includes the uniform
service of the United States Public Health Service that I oversee as a
surgeon general.
WALLACE: Dr. Murthy, we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you.
Thank you for your time. It's always good to talk with you, sir.
Up next, when we return to the Reagan National Defense Forum, my
conversation with one of the leaders of the U.S. Space Force on the
security challenges on the new frontier.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Welcome back to the Reagan National Defense
Forum.
And now, the latest on another developing story. The highly mutated COVID
variant, Omicron, has now been detected in 44 countries and has spread to
16 states here in the U.S. Health officials are racing to learn more about
the new variant, while also dealing with another surge of the Delta virus.
Joining us now, U.S. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy.
Doctor, it's been a little bit more than a week since the world first
learned about this Omicron variant, and I want to go over some of the
initial findings so far. The variant is spreading more than twice as fast
as Delta. It's three times more likely to cause reinfections among people
who've had COVID, and it shares a genetic code with the common cold.
So, compared to a week ago when we first learned the name Omicron, how much
more have we learned about the transmissibility of this disease, the
severity of the disease from Omicron and the potential that it could evade
and beat the vaccines that we now have?
DR. VIVEK MURTHY, U.S. SURGEON GENERAL: Well, Chris, we have -- we continue
to learn a lot about Omicron. We've seen certainly that there has been
spread around the world and in our country. It's something we expected.
We've seen this with other variants.
And we've been in close dialogue with our colleagues in South Africa, in a
frequent basis, to understand what they are seeing.
Chris, even though they are certainly seeing cases go up and they've seen
an increase in hospitalizations, they have cautioned us as we have with
others to not draw immediate conclusions from initial data sets or from
anecdotes that you hear.
So, to the question of whether the increased of spread is driven by, you
know, greater transmissibility or whether it's being driven by a different
sensitivity to vaccine protections and protection from prior infection, the
exact mix there of contributors is not known.
The bottom line is this is what we do know. We do know that the measures
that we take to protect ourselves from the spread of COVID, including
wearing masks and indoor spaces, being in well-ventilated spaces, those
work and will work against Omicron.
We also know that with vaccines, Chris, that even though we are trying to
figure out the exact level of protection our vaccines will give against
Omicron, in every case, we have seen the vaccinated are better off,
particularly more protected against hospitalization and death than the
unvaccinated. It's why we are urging people to get vaccinated and boosted.
WALLACE: Just briefly on this, you talk about masks. Are you saying now
that if you're with people that you don't know that we should go back
routinely to wearing a mask indoors?
MURTHY: Well, certainly, what we've been seeing actually since the
summertime is that if you are vaccinated or unvaccinated and gathered with
people outside your household in indoor spaces, that wearing a mask is the
recommended step to take to help reduce the potential for spread. It
protects you, but it also protects the people around you.
WALLACE: You know, I know that you -- you're a scientist and you want to
play this very carefully, but people are following this awfully closely.
So, let me just ask you this, Doctor, and I hope you can give us some
transparency.
From what you have learned so far as compared to a week ago, are you more
or less worried about Omicron?
MURTHY: Well, Chris, you know, I certainly am concerned about the
possibility that this is going to spread, you know, more easily than other
variants that we've seen to date and we've got to get more data like I said
to understand the exact extent of that.
But I do think it's a reason for us to not necessarily panic, but just to
be more vigilant and to recognize that the precautions that we have been
talking about for the last year or so are all the more important now than
ever, because keep in mind, and it's not just Omicron, Chris. We are
predominantly dealing with a Delta challenge right now. We've got the Delta
variant in this country which is causing an average of close to 100,000
cases a day.
And as winter, you know, approaches and people go indoors, it's possible
that number -- those numbers, you know, may go up, unless we take the
precautions that are necessary like getting vaccinated and wearing those
masks. So, to me, this is a cause --
WALLACE: But let me --
MURTHY: -- for being even more vigilant, but not for panicking.
WALLACE: Let me pick up on that. President Biden announced several new
measures this week to fight COVID, to fight all of the variants.
And I want to put it up on the screen. A tougher testing protocol for
international travel, an extension of masks on public transportation,
insurance coverage for at-home tests.
But a doctor that worked with you on the Biden transition task force, Dr.
Celine Gounder, said this week that she wishes that President Biden had
been even tougher, especially on domestic air travel when it comes to
vaccines and masks.
Your thoughts about that?
MURTHY: Well, I think international and domestic travel are, in fact,
different. On the international front, as you mentioned, there's a number
of measures we have taken like vaccine requirements, requiring testing
before people get on those flights.
From a domestic standpoint, what you have seen is that if people do, in
fact, wear masks, well-fitted, good quality masks, they can actually
significantly reduce their risk on domestic flights.
And, finally, just keep in mind this: we've taken a number of measures
domestically to insure that we increase vaccination rates which is
ultimately our key to ending this pandemic. Whether that's the
requirements, you know, in workplaces, whether that's -- you know, the
availability of vaccines that we made which is really quite unprecedented.
And we'll continue to do that.
And we just -- on the last week, the president announced, in fact, that we
are getting pharmacies to offer even more slots. We are sending reminders
to millions of Americans about the importance of getting vaccinated and
boosted. And we're setting up hundreds of family clinics, of kids and
adults getting vaccinated at the same time.
So, these are strong measures we put in place and, you know, I think we've
continually shown a desire to use every lever we have to make sure that
people are protected, they're vaccinated, and we get to the end of this
pandemic as quickly as we can.
WALLACE: President Biden has been aggressive about vaccine mandates on
government and health workers, on the military, on companies that have more
than 100 employees. But I don't have to tell you, the courts have blocked a
number of those.
Here's what the president said announcing his new set of COVID fighting
measures this week. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: While my existing federal
vaccination requirements are being reviewed by the courts, this plan does
not expand or add to those mandates.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Why did the president feel they need it to say more mandates? Is
he backing off of them? I mean, there were no new mandates when a lot of
people expected there would be.
MURTHY: No. I -- look, I think that he feels very strongly that the
measures that he put forward will meaningfully move us forward, you know?
And the requirements that we have in place, you know, will continue to do
that.
But we know that this -- this effort is about more than requirements. It's
also about making sure people have the information they need to get
vaccinated, that they have access to the vaccine. And that's why you see a
focus on some of those areas and doubling down on those other areas in his
plan. But you have to -- putting this altogether, Chris, I think that the
measures he announced are going to help us for the winter.
And I just want to make sure people understand this very clearly, we are
not back in March 2020 despite the prospect of a new variant Omicron on the
horizon and despite the fact that we found cases here. We have more tools.
We have more knowledge to protect ourselves. It's why the holidays this
year I believe will be and already have been very different than the
holidays in 2020.
I've been able to take my kids trick-or-treating for Halloween. I got
together with family for Thanksgiving. Millions of Americans did the same.
We can gather safely for the holidays and these measures will help us do
the same.
WALLACE: How do you feel about the fact that the courts are blocking the
mandates? What -- what is the potential fallout from that, the vaccine
mandates?
And along those lines, we now find out that up to 19,000 members of the
Navy and the Marines have not met the November 28th deadline for getting
vaccines and their cases are going to be reviewed on an individual basis.
But we're talking about the crew that would be needed, 19,000, to staff
four aircraft carriers.
We can't afford to lose those 19,000 marines and sailors because of this
mandate, can we?
MURTHY: Well, Chris, I'm glad you asked because what we are committed to
doing is working with every federal employee, in military and civilian, to
make sure that they are vaccinated and they have the information that they
need to be vaccinated. And, again, this is not a cliff. You know, if people
don't make the deadline, we will work with them to make figure how to get
them there.
But I also want -- we keep this in perspective, which is a vast, vast
majority, well over 90 percent of the federal workforce is vaccinated and
in compliance. And that includes the military, it includes the uniform
service of the United States Public Health Service that I oversee as a
surgeon general.
WALLACE: Dr. Murthy, we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you.
Thank you for your time. It's always good to talk with you, sir.
Up next, when we return to the Reagan National Defense Forum, my
conversation with one of the leaders of the U.S. Space force on the
security challenges on the new frontier.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WALLACE: This week the Biden administration laid out its approach to space
policy with a focus on national security given provocative actions by
countries like China and Russia. Earlier, I discussed those threats with
General David Thompson, the vice chief of operations for the U.S. Space
Force.
General Thompson, welcome.
GENERAL DAVID THOMPSON, VICE CHIEF OF SPACE OPERATIONS, UNITED STATES SPACE
FORCE: Good morning. Great to be here.
WALLACE: Your boss, General Raymond compares space to the wild west. Just
how wild is the situation in space?
THOMPSON: Well, first of all let me say that it's an incredibly growing and
dynamic domain, and -- and some of that contributes to what you'll call the
wildness of -- of space. In the past two years alone, the number of active
satellites in space has doubled. It's gone to nearly 5,000 things. Now, a
lot of energy is in the -- in the commercial investment and innovation we
see, but there aren't really an agreed to international set of standards
and norms of behavior that are expected in space.
WALLACE: Yes, I want to pick up on that. If the Space Force is the new
sheriff in town, how do you keep law and order in that kind of situation,
and what constitutes an act of war in space?
THOMPSON: So, the answer -- let me start there, the answer of what
constitutes an act of war in space is not really clear -- I'll say clearly
defined or understood and perhaps there's been less thinking in that -- and
then in other areas and other domains.
What we are not, though, is we are not the sheriff in town, we are a
military force, but we firmly advocate for regulation and conduct and
standards of norms behavior that everybody should follow and that we should
follow as well.
WALLACE: And does anyone -- the other nations, especially China, especially
Russia, do they listen to us in that area?
THOMPSON: There are conversations ongoing. They put forward proposals as
well. So do we. But things have not proceeded very -- very far in the
recent past. We've tried to facilitate it. It's really under the leadership
of the Department of State. But, recently, the secretary of Defense
outlined what I'll call five tenets of responsible behavior that we apply
to that everybody else should.
Conduct your space operations in a safe manner. Don't generate long lived
debris. Don't create harmful and unfair interference. Communicate your
intentions. And operate safely in the vicinity of others. Those are the
kinds of tenets -- tenets and expertise that we should -- or expectations
that we should all adhere to, but they aren't commonly accepted or adhered
to yet in space.
WALLACE: China is putting up satellites at twice the rate that the U.S. is
now.
THOMPSON: Correct
WALLACE: And at that pace, by the end of the decade, they will replace the
U.S. as the preeminent power in space.
When you look at, you know, the hypersonic missiles, when you look at
satellites with robotic arms, just how much of a threat is China to the
U.S. and to the rules of the road in space?
THOMPSON: So, China is a tremendous threat, as you noted. Now, I don't
think it's a forgone conclusion that they will be the leader in space by
the end of the decade, but they're on an incredible pace. We are still the
best in the world in space. Our capabilities are the best in the world in
space, but they're moving aggressively, they're moving quickly, and we need
to adapt our approach. We need to adapt what we do and how we do it in
order to keep pace and outpace them. But they are a threat. They can
threaten us kinetically, like you said. They -- the Russians on the 15th of
November conducted a destructive anti-satellite test. The China conducted a
similar test in 2007. They have robots in space that conduct attacks. They
can conduct jamming attacks and laser dazzling attacks. They have a full
suite of cyber capabilities. Absolutely an incredible threat that we have
to address now and in the future.
WALLACE: Talking first of all about China. If they continue putting
satellites up at -- at -- at the speed they are, they have a -- a satellite
with a robotic arm. Could they eventually get to a point where they could
take out U.S. sensors and thereby have a first strike offensive capability?
THOMPSON: So, I would say that's a potential. That's one of the reasons the
Space Force was created, to understand that threat, to design tactics and
techniques, to design counters to that threat, to design a system that
provides for intelligence collection and awareness and understanding. So
that just as we do in other domains, we know their capabilities, we know
their tactics, we know their systems, and we create counters. And its our
job in the Space Force to ensure, should they propose to attack us with
something like a space robot or other things, we have counter measures, we
have tactics and we have means to employ to prevent that attack from being
successful.
WALLACE: Meanwhile, you talked about Russia. They, in the last few weeks,
launched a missile that took out one of their own defunct satellites and
created 1,500 pieces of debris in a very crowded neighborhood.
THOMPSON: They did.
WALLACE: How threatening is that?
THOMPSON: It was incredibly dangerous and irresponsible act. In fact, they
conducted in an altitude over the North Pole that means for years to come
that debris will be present, and it will eventually filter down and re-
enter the atmosphere.
But as it does, it has the potential to threaten every single satellite at
altitudes below that, including the International Space Station, and,
interesting enough, the Russian cosmonauts on the International Space
Station.
So, in that sense, it's a dangerous behavior that threatens our use of the
domain.
What we also need to do, however, is design new space systems that
recognize that's a possible threat and make it less productive and valuable
to try to conduct that sort of attacking (ph).
WALLACE: Well, let me ask you about one aspect of that, because one of the
things that we're doing is putting more, lower cost satellites up. And is
the idea that you create this, sort of, swarm of satellites and you put too
many targets in the -- in space for them to shoot?
THOMPSON: Exactly right. The, you know, the term we use is resilience, and
we make is such that it's too hard, too expensive and too unlikely that
they'll succeed in creating a -- the effect they want because, rather than
the past, when we've had a small number of very sophisticated, very capable
satellites, we now intend to field more and more and more lower cost, lower
capable that provide, in aggregate, the same capability. Therefore, there's
not as much value in attempting to attacking them in space.
WALLACE: Some of the most innovative work being done in space now is by
private companies.
THOMPSON: Absolutely.
WALLACE: Like SpaceX, like Virgin Orbit. What kind of a partnership does
the Space Force either have or hope to develop with these private
companies?
THOMPSON: We both have partnerships and we're going to develop more.
The first is, as these new commercial services come online, if they're of
value to the Space Force, if they're of value to our joint force, we're
going to use them directly for our benefit.
The second is that innovation and creativity we see in their technology and
the way they operate, if we can leverage and apply them to military
missions, we'll do that as well. And then the third piece is, we're
actually partnering with them and sharing information on mission
requirements, mission design, cost and threats and we're asking them to
develop their own solutions to our problems as we do as well to create a
new relationship that says, here's a problem, here's a potential solution,
employ the power and innovation of your ideas alongside ours to come up
with the best source of space capabilities for the nation.
WALLACE: Finally, when President Trump directed the Pentagon to start the
Space Force back in 2018, it became the -- the butt of some pop culture
jokes. I want you to take a look at some of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW" (August 10, 2018): Tonight, there's
big news about Space Force.
JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY (February 2, 2021): Wow, Space
Force. It's the plane of today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: So, how do you react to that and how seriously is the Space Force
being taken by our adversaries now?
THOMPSON: So, I think as people more fully understand exactly who we are,
what we are, how we contribute to the security of the nation, I think
absolutely they're taking us more seriously. We certainly see energy and
desire out of the young people of the nation to join and participate.
I would say that humor is a fundamental avenue of the human society and
always has been a part of American culture. If we can't take a joke, if we
can't accept some of the humor like that, then we're probably not prepared
to face the greater challenges we need, and we're absolutely up to those
challenges.
WALLACE: And I gather from what you say that China and Russia are not
laughing.
General Thompson, thank you so much for talking with us.
THOMPSON: If I may, Mr. Wallace, thanks. Let me say that speaking for
myself, speaking for General Raymond, and I know I'm speaking for the
13,000 guardians, it remains an honor and a privilege to serve the nation
and its people.
WALLACE: Thank you, sir.
Up next, our "Power Play of the Week," the man behind the mission to
preserve and promote the legacy of our 40th president.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WALLACE: It's been our honor and pleasure to once again come here to the
Reagan Library. It's now the largest and most visited of all the
presidential libraries. The over the last decade, there's one man who's
been most responsible for maintaining its preeminence, and he's our "Power
Player of the Week."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN HEUBUSCH, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF RONALD REAGAN PRESIDENTIAL
FOUNDATION
AND INSTITUTE: There's a whole lot of people that just admire Ronald
Reagan. And they come here. It's somewhat of a mecca. It's Reagan country.
WALLACE (voice over): Executive Director John Heubusch on the lasting
relevance of the Reagan Library.
HEUBUSCH: We're about promoting what Ronald Reagan stood for. And that was
less taxes, less government, less regulation, more freedom, strong defense.
RONALD REAGAN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Government is not the solution to our
problem. Government is the problem.
WALLACE: In 2009, Nancy Reagan chose Heubusch to lead her husband's
foundation.
HEUBUSCH: Every time my phone rang, my heart would jump into my throat a
bit because I knew I was -- she was going to ask for me to do, maybe not
the impossible, but some big things.
WALLACE (on camera): How dramatically have you revamped the library over
the last 12 years?
HEUBUSCH: These presidential libraries, in my mind, are - yes, they're a
bit like sharks, you know. If you're not moving forward and constantly in
the hunt for new and interesting things to do, you're not going places.
WALLACE (voice over): The library is the final resting place for both
Reagans, but Heubusch has found inventive ways to keep the president alive.
REAGAN: So you wouldn't mind if I told you just one more story, would you?
WALLACE (on camera): How do visitors to the library react to the sonogram
(ph)?
HEUBUSCH: Oh, they just love it. They really do. From kids from six to 96
and to hear and see as best as you can President Reagan almost right there
in the flesh.
WALLACE (voice over): But there were unforeseen challenges, like massive
wildfires in 2019.
WALLACE (on camera): can you get out?
WALLACE (voice over): In an interview then, his concern was clear.
HEUBUSCH: I stood on a hill with a couple of -- with a dozen firemen who
literally stopped flames about 100 yards from President and Mrs. Reagan's
gravesite.
WALLACE (on camera): How close did you come to losing the library?
HEUBUSCH: You know, Chris, we came within an inch. The Reagan Library was
surrounded by a wall of flames. They saved the Reagan Library, there's no
doubt about it.
WALLACE (voice over): Heubusch has kept finding ways to advance the Reagan
legacy, like an institute in Washington that pushes conservative
principles.
CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR: As Republicans, we need to
free ourselves from the quicksand of endless grievances.
HEUBUSCH: Thank you. Please, be seated.
WALLACE (on camera): You have started a speaker series, a time for
choosing. What is the debate inside the Republican Party today?
HEUBUSCH: I think he would be far more willing to compromise then we find
today. People seem to be at each other's throats and I think that would
really concern President Reagan.
Thank you. God bless you. And God bless America.
WALLACE (voice over): Heubusch is stepping down at the end of this year but
feels he's accomplished his central mission.
HEUBUSCH: Listen, Ronald Reagan did not need my help to be one of the best
presidents in the history of the nation, but maybe he and Mrs. Reagan
needed a little help to ensure that the admiration for the president would
never cease. So I think we've held the flame high and made the name is
Ronald Reagan as relevant today as it was many years ago.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: Heubusch promised Nancy Reagan he would give her at least five
years here at the library. But in year four, he was diagnosed with terminal
cancer. He beat the disease and kept building the library these past 12
years.
And that's it for today. Have a great week and we'll see you back in
Washington next FOX NEWS SUNDAY.
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