This is a rush transcript of "Fox News Sunday" on August 15, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I'm Chris Wallace.

More U.S. troops are sent to evacuate American diplomats and thousands of

Afghans as the Taliban enters the capital city of Kabul.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: We're deeply concerned about the trends

and where it's going.

WALLACE (voice-over): Now, 4,000 troops are sent back to Afghanistan just

weeks before the U.S. plans to end its longest war -- as the situation on

the ground unravels and critics blast President Biden's execution of his

withdrawal.

MIKE POMPEO, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: We were going to get our soldiers

back and we were going to make sure that this kind of thing that you're

seeing happening today could not happen.

WALLACE: We'll ask former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo what it means for

American security and our standing in the world.

Then --

CROWD: No more masks!

WALLACE: Tempers flare over mask mandates in schools as the nation's

students had back to the classroom and COVID cases rise among kids.

And questions about the effectiveness of vaccines over time raise the

prospect of boosters. We'll talk with the director of the NIH, Dr. Francis

Collins, about the latest wave and how many of us will need a third shot.

And a U.N. report on climate change declares code red for humanity. We'll

ask our Sunday panel about the dire warnings and what's at stake if we

don't act quickly.

All, right now, on "FOX News Sunday."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE (voice-over): And hello again from FOX News in Washington.

We begin with breaking news on two fronts. In Afghanistan, President Biden

boosting deployment from 3,000, now to 4,000 troops as Afghan government

and security forces collapse under a Taliban advance. Insurgents taking

control of more than 30 percent -- 30, rather, of the country's 34

provinces and a lightning offensive over the past ten days. Taliban

fighters now reaching the outskirts of Kabul, where the evacuation of U.S.

embassy staff has begun.

And in Haiti, a powerful magnitude 7.2 quake has killed hundreds of people

with the death toll rising just as a tropical storm closes in. In a moment,

we'll speak with former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, who oversaw the

Trump administration's peace agreement with the Taliban.

But, first, let's bring in Kevin Corke at the White House with the latest

on both Haiti and Afghanistan -- Kevin.

KEVIN CORKE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Chris, with President Ghani set to

relinquish power in Afghanistan and the Taliban now on the march in Kabul,

the U.S.'s precarious presence in Afghanistan is facing the all too real

prospect of an ignominious end and a dangerous one as well.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CORKE (voice-over): President Biden huddled with his senior national

security advisors this week, mapping out an updated exit strategy from the

war-torn nation. This is the Taliban has continued its march him, seizing

increasingly large swaths of the countryside without much resistance,

finally reaching the streets of Kabul today.

Afghan officials say Taliban negotiators are headed to the palace today to

discuss transfer of the city, something Biden previously said was not a

foregone conclusion.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Afghan troops have 300,000

well-equipped, as well-equipped as any army in the world and an air force,

against something like 75,000 Taliban. It is not inevitable.

CORKE: Near the embassy in Kabul, Chinook helicopters landing to help

evacuate personnel as diplomats urgently destroy sensitive documents.

Afghan officials say troops have surrendered Bagram airbase to the Taliban,

which houses 5,000 inmates, increasingly Kabul international airport is the

only way in for U.S. troops and the only way out for anyone looking to

escape.

Meanwhile, half a world away, Haiti is once again in the throes of disaster

with desperate searches on going to find the living trapped in rubble

following a devastating 7.2 earthquake Saturday that is killed or than

hundred there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CORKE (on camera): Chris, that impoverished country is still trying to

claw its way back from a similar powerful earthquake some 11 years ago and

is now doing so without a head of state as its president was assassinated

there last month -- Chris.

WALLACE: Kevin Corke reporting from the White House -- Kevin, thank you.

And joining us now, former secretary of state, Mike Pompeo.

Mr. Secretary, welcome back to "FOX News Sunday".

MIKE POMPEO, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Chris, thanks for having me on

this morning.

WALLACE: How dire is the situation in Afghanistan as we talk today? Is a

full Taliban takeover of the country now inevitable?

POMPEO: Well, Chris, it certainly looks like it. It looks like the Biden

demonstration has just failed in its execution of its own plan. It looks

like they are now trying to get folks out.

This reminds me of when we have seen previous administrations allow

embassies to be overrun. It's starting to feel that way. It also looks like

there's a bit of panic having to reinsert soldiers to get them out. The

plan should have been, much like we had, was that we would have an orderly

conditions-based way to think about how to draw down our forces there. We

actually delivered on that promise.

I hope we get these folks out. I hope they will bring the airpower. They

should go crush these Taliban who are surrounding Kabul. We can do it with

American airpower.

We should put pressure on them. We should put -- inflict cost and pain on

them. We shouldn't be begging them to spare the lives of Americans. We

should be imposing costs on the Taliban until they allow us to execute our

plan in Afghanistan.

WALLACE: There are a lot of questions here. Let me start with the one that

I think is most important to the American homeland. If -- I guess we should

say when the Taliban takes over, what does it mean for U.S. national

security? Can we, as the Biden administration promises, from over the

horizon deal with a terrorist threat to the U.S. homeland from inside

Afghanistan?

POMPEO: Well, Chris, this is one of the most important questions, it

depends on a couple of things. The first is the context for American

security policy. So think about what's happening. The Taliban are

aggressive and they are fearless because we have an administration that has

refused to adopt a deterrence model, the one that President Trump and I

had, right (ph)?

We've had Iranian rockets landed in Israel. We've handed the pipeline back

to the Russians, right? We've allowed the Chinese to castigate our senior

leadership in Anchorage and now we're letting the Taliban to run free and

wild all around Afghanistan.

They have to understand that there's in an administration with a backbone

and a seriousness to execute on the things that matter and protect and

defend America.

So this gets to the larger challenge, what -- what will the Taliban believe

that the Americans are prepared to do if they begin to play footsie with al

Qaeda or let ISIS begin to grow in Afghanistan? If it's like the Carter

administration and the Obama administration and now what appears to be the

first seven months of the Biden demonstration, the Taliban will feel free

to do this.

I can assure you. Were I still the secretary of state or the commander in

chief like President Trump, the Taliban would have understood that there

were real costs to pay if there were plots against the United States of

America from that place. Qassem Soleimani learned that lesson, and the

Taliban would have learned it as well.

WALLACE: President Biden released a statement yesterday in which in effect

he blamed President Trump and your administration for the deal that you

made with the Taliban back in 2020 which resulted in a promise at that time

that President Trump had stayed in office to pull all troops out by this

past May.

I want to read you some of what President Biden said in his statement.

When I became president, I faced a choice, follow through on the deal or

ramp up our presence and send more American troops to fight once again in

another country's civil conflict.

Mr. Secretary, what do you think of President Biden's attempt here to blame

-- to pain all the blame for what's transpired in these last few weeks on

the deal he says he, quote, inherited, from President Trump and from you?

POMPEO: If the risks weren't so serious, Chris, it would be pathetic. I

wouldn't have let my 10-year old son get away from this kind of pathetic

blame-shifting. He should be less focused on trying to blame this on

someone else than to solving the problem of making sure that we protect and

defend American security.

Chris, it's worth noting this did not happen on our watch. We reduced our

forces significantly and the Taliban didn't advance on capitals all across

Afghanistan. So it's just a plain old fact that this is happening under the

Biden administration's leadership now almost a quarter of our way into his

first term, this is -- this is not the way leaders lead by pointing

backwards.

We had a bad deal. We inherited the JCPOA. We got out of it. We secured

America from the risk of Iran.

We inherited a horrible deal in Syria where ISIS controlled real estate the

size of Great Britain. We crushed them.

Every president confronts confer challenges. This president confronted a

challenge in Afghanistan. He has utterly failed to protect the American

people from this challenge.

WALLACE: But I have to say, it isn't just President Biden who says this.

When we announced that you are going to be a guest on this program, a

former top military commander in Afghanistan and a current top Republican

member of Congress, both talked about the deal that the Trump

administration and you negotiated back in 2020 with the Taliban to pull out

all U.S. forces.

Here was President Trump when he was in office.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: Basically, we're policeman right now and

we're not supposed to be policeman. We've been there -- we've been there

for 19 years in Afghanistan. It's ridiculous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Critics say that for the U.S. to cut a deal with the Taliban

without the Afghan government even in the room was hugely demoralizing and

led inevitably to where we are today.

POMPEO: Yeah, Chris, that's just simple he not true. Go read the deal. Go

read the conditions that were built into the deal. I was in the room. I was

at the center of working to deliver that.

The Afghans were in the room. We had the Afghans all in the room for the

same time in 20 years we had Afghan leaders. Not just a corrupt leader,

Ghani. I mean, think about President Ghani, he's been all this time

lobbying Washington, D.C., Republicans and military leaders, the same folks

you probably just talked about.

If he had spent that time building up friends and coalitions and working

with the Taliban himself, we could have gotten to reconciliation. Instead

he took money for his own good and then came to Washington to lobby for

more American money, billions of dollars. He spent more time in Washington

than he did talking to his own people.

We negotiated a deal that performed a basis for the conditions-based

withdrawal for American soldiers. I'm proud of the work that we did there.

We brought a lot of young kids home. We saved a lot of American lives.

We were working diligently to deliver on the president's two missions, to

get our young people home, to reduce the risk of the United States from

having our soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines there in Afghanistan, and

second, to create the conditions where we could make sure that a terror

attack on the United States did not happen from there.

We did it in the Philippines. We did it in Syria. We reduced terrorism risk

all around the world. We would have done it in Afghanistan as well.

WALLACE: I just want to ask you one more question about your record

though, sir. You were the first American secretary of state to ever meet

with the Taliban and you talked about how they had agreed to join us in the

fight against terrorism. Here you are, sir.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POMPEO: The gentleman I met with agreed that they would break that

relationship and that they would work alongside of us to destroy, deny

resources to, and to have al Qaeda depart from that place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Do you regret giving the Taliban that legitimacy? Do you regret

pressing the Afghan government to release 5,000 prisoners, which they did,

some of whom are now back on the battlefield fighting with the Taliban?

POMPEO: Chris, you make peace with your enemies, the statement that I made

that day was absolutely true. You can ask the military leaders on the

ground. We did good work to crush al Qaeda. When we left office, there were

fewer than 200 al Qaeda left and Afghanistan.

Chris, we never trusted the Taliban. You can ask them yourselves. We made

abundantly clear if they did not live up to that piece of paper, to the

words that they had put on the ground, we weren't going to allow them to

just walk away from any deal that they had struck, we were going to go

crush them. We were going to impose real costs on them. We were going to

let them take these provincial capitals.

They understood that American power was going to come to their village, to

their community, to their friends and family around him and we were going

to make sure that they understood America wasn't going to allow Americans

to be killed from this place.

We didn't take the word of the Taliban. We watched their actions on the

ground. When they did the right thing and they helped us against terror,

that was all good. And when they didn't, we crush them.

WALLACE: Finally, and I want -- I got about two minutes here, sir. You

graduated first in her class from West Point in 1986 and I'm sure you

vividly remember that it was just a decade earlier in 1975 when the U.S.

pulled out of Saigon and you saw U.S. diplomats, Vietnamese people who had

been sided with us, clamoring on to helicopters on the embassy roof, which

scarred our country and our military for years.

What you think the fall of Afghanistan is going to say to our allies and to

our enemies? And what you think it's going to mean for our image of

ourselves?

POMPEO: Chris, that's a very important question. I think weak American

leadership always harms American security. So this is in the context of the

Biden administration that has basically abandoned the global stage in favor

of climate change. They've been focused on critical race theory while the

embassy is at risk. That didn't happen during our four years.

I do think there's a real risk here. I think our soldiers sailors, our

junior enlisted soldiers have done amazing work along the way. But I think

the senior military leadership that had 20 years to build out these

coalition forces, the Afghan national security forces, has to fundamentally

rethink the training that they've provided them, the weapons they provided

them, how they were thinking strategically about handing this battle off to

the Afghan people, and we had a president in Afghanistan who wasn't

prepared to do the right thing for his own national security, for his own

country.

I think that political failure and that military failure is something that

we're going to have to take a long, hard look at to make sure that we are

always securing American freedom.

WALLACE: Secretary Pompeo, thank you. Thanks for your time this Sunday.

Always good to talk with you, sir.

POMPEO: Yes, sir.

WALLACE: Up next, we'll bring in our Sunday group to discuss Afghanistan

and the dire warning this week for the future of our planet.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: The jury is still out. But the likelihood there is going to be the

Taliban overrunning everything and owning the whole country is highly

unlikely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: President Biden just over a month ago expressing confidence in

the ability the Afghan military to stand up to the Taliban.

And it's time now for our Sunday group. Former RNC communications director

Doug Heye, Julie Pace, Washington bureau chief the "Associated Press" and

FOX News political analyst Juan Williams.

Julie, I guess the big question is how could President Biden have so badly

misjudged the strength and cohesion of the Afghan government and the Afghan

security forces? And I know that the polls show that most Americans want

the U.S. out of our longest war, but are they prepared at the White House

for a real blowback when we begin to see those images -- horrific images --

about the Taliban is going to do inside Afghanistan?

JULIE PACE, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF: Yeah, it's

really remarkable I think how this story is shifting and changing on the

Biden White House. You know, as late as Friday coming into this weekend,

even after we saw the Taliban taking over a pretty significant swath of

territory in Afghanistan, the Biden White House was really leaning into

this idea that the public was with them, that politics on the war and

shifted in the U.S. him and that was true.

I think what we are actually dealing with right now are going to be bigger

questions around, you know, was this intelligence failure? You know, how

did we miss that the Taliban had this strength, that the Afghan security

forces would fall so quickly, because as you said, this does not appear to

have been the assessment of anyone in the U.S. government, that the

withdrawal would lead to this kind of situation so quickly.

And I think there's real uncertainty about where the American people and

the politics on this will stand if we all get to the end of today -- you

know, not a point in the distant future, but the end of today and see that

the Taliban has taken over Kabul and the Afghan government has fully

collapsed.

WALLACE: Doug, you know, there's quite a split inside the Republican Party

about whether we should have stayed in Afghanistan or left buried. We need

to point out it wasn't just President Biden who wanted to pull out, it was

Donald Trump who set all of that in motion and wanted to pull out but as

you heard, Secretary Pompeo say come his policy would have been different,

wanted to pull out this last May.

But when you see what's happened over the last week, we had -- we'd spent

20 years and $80 billion building up the Afghan military and they collapse,

they just run away from the Taliban.

How can you justify investing more American blood and treasure?

DOUG HEYE, FORMER RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: I think what most are

Republicans want to do -- and there is a real split -- part of the

leadership would seem from Liz Cheney is talking about we can't abandon

those people who have helped us on the ground at this very critical moment.

And if we do abandon them, essentially the Afghan translators and so forth,

we are condemning them to hell essentially.

And so the reality that we see on the ground here politically is -- you

know, we talk so often, Chris, about whether or not America is a great

nation and/or a good nation. Well, clearly, what we are seeing right now is

not great and the question with Afghan translators is whether or not we're

good.

There's a lot of blame to go around. If you read Robert Draper's "To Start

a War," which I picked up again last night, this goes back with many

president now with follies. But this is now on Joe Biden, you can't just

look backwards and blame Donald Trump.

And one of the key messages in his campaign was Joe Biden had a team of

professionals versus Donald Trump's Adams family and they weren't going to

make these mistakes on the ground.

This is where we are now. We need to see leadership and we need to see Joe

Biden lead.

WALLACE: Well, of course, the question, Juan, is how can he lead? Because

as we said at the beginning of the show, the Taliban is at the gates. They

may give us a little time to get out and maybe to get some Afghan

supporters out, but not the tens of thousands at this point, which gets to

the basic question.

As I mentioned to Secretary Pompeo, Joe Biden issued a statement yesterday

that basically said I inherited this mess, blame President Trump for the

deal he made.

But when you see the horrific scenes we're going to see in the next days

and weeks, there's no way around it, this is Joe Biden's defeat, isn't it?

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, I think it's

happening under Biden's watch and he's going to have to bear that

responsibility and those horrific images are going to come from the media,

no doubt.

But I think this is less a matter of blame, Chris, then regret. I mean,

don't forget, this was the forever war, and as you pointed out, the

American people don't want to be there but also it was the forgotten war.

Why was it forgotten? Because the goal 20 years ago when we got involved

here was to stop the Taliban from allowing Afghanistan to be a base for

terrorist activity. And that goal was accomplished. That was shut down.

And then it became a matter of how do we maintain that, how do we keep the

Taliban at bay? Well, that then enters into the whole notion of nation-

building and, you know what? The United States has spent trillions of

dollars to prop up the Afghanistan government, to prop up their military,

their police, training and all the rest, American lives, and money.

And it hasn't worked. Why? Because of their -- you know, Ashraf Ghani, the

president's own corruption, lack of competence. That's their issue.

I don't think that's an American issue. The key for Biden is making sure

that there is no further terrorist base ever established in Afghanistan.

WALLACE: Let's turn to another big story that week, that was the report

from a panel of the United Nations, which talked about the weather extremes

in the world getting even more extreme, so bad that the secretary general

of the United Nations called it code red for humanity.

Here was the reaction on the U.S. Senate floor to the report.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Oregon is burning, California is burning,

Greece is burning. There is a drought hitting virtually every country on

earth.

SEN. JOHN BARRASSO (R-WY): The Green New Deal is not about protecting the

environment. It's about making big government even bigger.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Julie, the report says that the weather extremes are getting even

more extreme and we all see it. In our homes, on TV, terrible forest fires

broiling heat, storms, floods, and yet I think one of the things that's

remarkable to me is here we are at the week, the report came out I think

Monday, Washington, our leaders both on the right and left, basically moved

on.

PACE: Absolutely. And, look, I think there's actually a linkage between

what we are talking about here on climate and what we're talking about the

Biden administration trying to do in Afghanistan. You know, when Biden

looks at the biggest national security challenges facing the United States,

facing the world, he looks at climate change as being top of that list.

And so, part of the rationale for trying to get out of Afghanistan is that

it's time to take U.S. attention away from a situation like that where, as

we see, there's really no good end in sight and put more attention and

things like climate change. Republicans will argue that is a mistake. But

for Biden, he really does see climate as a place where we need to be

focusing more sustained attention. But the challenge, as you saw over the

last couple of days, is that as president you don't always get to pick your

priorities, a lot of times they are really chosen for you.

WALLACE: And you have to deal with more than one crisis or catastrophe at

a time.

Panel, thank you. We'll take a break here. You'll see you all a little

later.

Up next, parents around the country increasingly at odds with each other

and school boards over mask mandates. We'll discuss the truth about risks

in the classroom with Dr. Francis Collins, head of the NIH. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Coronavirus cases, fueled by the delta

variant, continue to surge, primarily among the unvaccinated as the FDA

authorizes booster shots for some people and more employers are requiring

vaccination as a condition for returning to work.

Joining us now to discuss the latest guidance, the director of the National

Institutes of Health, Dr. Francis Collins.

Dr. Collins, let's start with the latest figures on this fourth wave of the

coronavirus. I want to put the stats up on the screen. The latest average

of new cases is more than 129,000 new cases a day. That's up more than 700

percent from the beginning of July.

Assuming current trends of the spread of the virus and assuming the current

level of vaccinations, how high could this wave get before it crests? How

many new cases could we be seeing a day?

DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH DIRECTOR: Well, Chris,

we can't really predict that. All we can say is that this is going very

steeply upward with no signs of having peeked out. So I will be surprised

if we don't cross 200,000 cases a day in the next couple of weeks.

And that's heartbreaking considering we never thought we would be back in

that space again. That was January, February. That shouldn't be August. But

here we are with delta variant, which is so contagious, and this

heartbreaking situation where 90 million people are still unvaccinated who

are sitting ducks for this virus, and that's the mess we're in. We're in a

world of hurt and it's a critical juncture to try to do everything we can

to turn that around.

WALLACE: We are also seeing a sharp rise in the number of pediatric cases,

both unvaccinated kids and vaccinated kids who are getting COVID from this

new delta variant.

How bad could that spike in pediatric cases get?

COLLINS: That's very worrisome. I think traditionally people kind of

considered, well, you know, kids aren't going to get that sick with this.

It more than 400 children have died of COVID-19. And right now we have

almost 2,000 kids in the hospital, many of them in ICU, some of them under

the age of four. So anybody who tries to tell you, well, don't worry about

the kids, the virus won't really bother them, that's not the evidence. And

especially with delta being so contagious, kids are very seriously at risk.

And it's up to all of us to do everything we can to protect them, as well

as we're trying to protective everybody else at the same time.

WALLACE: You talk about protecting them. Seven states across the country

have bans in place, bans against mandates for school masks, mask for these

kids when they're in the schools, and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis is

leading the charge.

Here he was this week, sir.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): If you're coming after the rights of parents in

Florida, I'm standing in your way. I'm not going to let you get away with

it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: How strong is the case that children in school should wear masks

as a mitigation against delta?

COLLINS: Chris, it's very strong. Go to the CDC website. You'll see more

than a dozen publications showing that evidence. And already you can see in

this country the schools that have started to open without mask

requirements, outbreaks are happening. And what happens then? The kids are

sent home for virtual learning, which is what we were trying to avoid. It's

really unfortunate that politics and polarization have got in the way of a

simple public health measure.

This mask that I'm holding has somehow become a symbol that it never should

have been. This is basically just a life-saving medical device. And somehow

it's now being seen as an invasion of your personal liberty. We never

should have gone there. It's heartbreaking for me as a person who's not a

politician, I'm a scientist, I'm a public health person, I'm a doctor, to

see how masks have gotten into this very strange place with parents and

others shouting about it. We never should have allowed that to happen.

WALLACE: I want to pick up on that because the board of education in

Williamson County, Tennessee, near Nashville, held a meeting this week on

the issue of mask mandates. And there were some parents in the group,

including some -- some doctors who had kids in the school who were urging

that everybody wear masks, that there be a mask mandate. And I want to play

the -- the reaction, the scene in the parking lot after the meeting of the

school board.

Here they are.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know who you are!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We -- we know who you are!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know who you are!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can leave freely, but we're going to find you and we

know who you are!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know who you are! You -- you -- you will never be

allowed in public again! You will never be allowed -- you'll never be

allowed in public again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know who you are!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know who you are!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, sir --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: As the head of the National Institutes of Health, as a person

who's devoted your life to public health, what's your reaction, sir, when

you see that?

COLLINS: Well, it's devastating that we, in this country, the most advanced

technological society on the planet, has somehow slipped into a space where

the evidence and the basis for making decisions on facts has gotten pushed

aside by politics, by social media conspiracies and by this incredible

depth of anger and grievance that seems to be held by so many. Our future,

as a nation, has got to revolve around coming away from that kind of

approach to everything or I don't see how we're going to solve all of our

society's problems, which are looming in front of us.

If I have one thing I'm worried about, it's not just the epidemic of COVID-

19, it's the epidemic of misinformation, disinformation, distrust, that is

tearing us apart.

WALLACE: One of the big questions now, Dr. Collins, is whether or not all

of us who got the vaccines in the first place are going to need a third

shot, or a booster, whatever you want to call it, because of declining

protection from the vaccine over time.

Now, you and the CDC and all the top government scientists are saying,

well, maybe sometime later this fall, maybe early next year. But, in Israel

right now, they are giving the third shots to everybody over 60 and

starting this week they're going to be giving the shot to everybody over

50, which raises the question, do they know something we don't, sir?

COLLINS: Well, we're looking very closely at their data, as well as our

own.

This is a tricky situation. First, let's point out that just on Friday

CDC's advisory group, and the CDC director accepted it, approved a third

shot for people who have immunocompromise, but that's a separate question.

What about the rest of us? Again, we are looking at this data almost daily.

Yet there is a concern that the vaccine may start to wane in its

effectiveness over months. And delta is a nasty one for us to try to deal

with. The combination of those two means we may need boosters, maybe

beginning first with health care providers, as well as people in nursing

homes, and then gradually moving forward.

We have not made that decision yet because right now the data we have from

the U.S. says people who are vaccinated are fully protected, even against

delta. When you're talking about severe disease, you're not going to end up

in the hospital if you have that vaccination.

And, of course, the big message right now this morning is, Chris, for the

people who aren't vaccinated, this is the moment to absolutely get off the

fence and take care of this because you are a sitting duck for this virus.

It's looking for you.

WALLACE: But you must know that there are people who did get vaccinated who

are seeing -- and there have been some studies, as you say, it doesn't

indicate people are going to get -- certainly be hospitalized or die, but

that the protection from the vaccine is waning. And -- and as you know,

some people have gone and gotten a third booster on their own in this

country, you know, either lied about it or whatever. And, you know, if

you're -- if you're looking at what's going on in Israel, which seems like

a pretty safe and careful country, why shouldn't you say, well, if they're

doing it, I'll do it?

COLLINS: Well, in -- in fact that is the question we're asking closely.

Remember, Israel had delta hit them sooner than it did us. So in a certain

way the timetable we're looking at is stepped back a bit because of the

spread of this virus. That's part of it.

But also, we're a different kind of country with different situations. We

are getting increasing amount of data from the U.S., especially the next

couple of weeks. We're going to see a lot since delta really started

hitting hard in July. And then we'll make a decision.

And, again, I don't think it's right for people to jump the gun until we

really have the evidence.

We're back to where we were a minute ago, Chris. We're a nation that's

supposed to make decisions based on evidence. Let's try to apply that here

too.

WALLACE: Finally, Governor DeSantis blames President Trump for spreading

COVID by letting so many people with COVID into the country illegally. Here

was Governor DeSantis on that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): Whatever variants are around the world, they're

coming across that southern border. And so he's not shutting down the

virus, he's helping to facilitate it in our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Your talk about dealing with the science, dealing with facts. I'm

going to ask you about that. In parts of Texas, the positivity rate for

COVID among some of the illegal migrants coming across the border is over

10 percent. How responsible are they for spreading -- for this wave of

COVID that is sweeping the country right now?

COLLINS: Well, it's certainly a cause of concern. They have very

significant masking requirements there but it is certainly possible.

But, you know, let nobody try to say that's why the U.S. is in trouble. The

rate of infection in Mexico is actually lower than it is right now in

places like Texas and Louisiana and Florida. I think that's a bit of a

distraction. We've got enough of a problem with her own citizens who have

refused to roll up their sleeves. So maybe that would be a better thing to

focus on if we're trying to end this. That -- that seemed like it was not

going to get us where we need to be. It's an issue, but it's certainly not

the cause of our current dilemma.

WALLACE: Dr. Collins, thank you. Thanks for sharing part of her weekend

with us. Always good to talk with you, sir. Please, come back.

COLLINS: OK, Chris, I will.

WALLACE: Coming up, we'll bring back our Sunday group to discuss the battle

against COVID and a growing divide among House Democrats over the path

forward for President Biden's domestic agenda.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: To vaccinate everyone who can be

vaccinated, vaccinating family members, if children cannot yet be

vaccinated, and then to follow the mitigation strategies in our school,

guidance, including masking in schools.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: CDC Director Rochelle Walensky, this week, with guidance on how to

keep schools safe in the new COVID wave as kids and teachers returned to

the classroom.

And we're back now with the panel.

Julie, there's been a lot of talk inside the White House about getting even

tougher about mandating vaccines, including the idea of cutting off federal

funds to institutions, like nursing homes, that get some federal funds

unless they make sure all of the people inside, at least the staff inside

the homes are vaccinated.

Where does that idea of using federal funds as a hammer, where does that

stand?

JULIE PACE, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, "THE ASSOCIATED PRESS": It's certainly

still under discussion and I think that, you know, it -- it speaks to this

straddle that the White House is -- is trying to -- to make here, which is,

on the one hand they really believe that mandates -- that anything they can

do to really pressure people to get the vaccine actually is -- is -- is

working. If you look at the data, as more companies, as the federal

government has -- has put mandates in place, you actually are seeing the

number of vaccinations increase.

On the other hand, Biden knows that in -- in parts of the country, with

really low vaccination rates, which tend to be more Republican leaning, you

know, the idea of mandates in general, and the idea of anything being

pushed by the Biden administration might make people more resistant. So

it's a -- it's this really fine balance that they're trying to strike here

between using ever lever that they have, pulling every lever that they have

to try to force people to essentially get this vaccine without making it

seem like Biden himself is actually forcing people to get the vaccine.

WALLACE: Juan, I -- I want to pick up on that because President Biden's

poll numbers were doing very well in the spring when we were doing very

well against COVID. And as the COVID numbers have risen and, you know, we

just heard Dr. Collins say we could see more than 200,000 cases -- new

cases a day before this wave ends, his poll numbers have begun to go down.

How does he balance, on the one hand, the push for vaccines, the push to

try to get this COVID wave under control, with, on the other hand, the

fierce backlash we saw, for instance, in that Tennessee parking lot when

people start talking about mandating vaccines or even mandating masks?

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, as the leader of the

American people, he's got to do what's right for the American people and

protect us, Chris. I think that's the paramount issue here.

You know, to me, if -- what's the basis for the backlash against Biden? The

backlash should be against people who are ignoring clear medical guidance,

clear medical facts about the dangers posed by coronavirus and somehow

they've made getting vaccinated into a political issue.

Again, there's lots of vaccine. You can go down to the drugstore right now

and get vaccinated. So you'd have to say that it's a matter of people who

have chosen to ignore this reality and instead made it a political issue or

an act of personal defiance or focused on what they want or don't want to

do or just indifferent.

So, to me, that's where the backlash belongs. Biden's going to have to deal

with it politically only by, again, asserting, you can get the vaccine.

It's up to you.

WALLACE: Doug, we have seen strong stands by some Republican governors,

especially DeSantis in Florida and Abbott in Texas, against even mask

mandates. Forget about vaccines. But now those are the states, two of the

states, Texas and Florida, that are seeing the -- the biggest spike in

COVID cases.

So how did they balance, on the one hand, their calls for personal freedom

and their political stand on that with, on the other hand, the -- the

growing public health concern in their backyards?

DOUG HEYE, FORMER RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Yes, I think that's what

former Director Collins was referring to as -- as to how this has all

become a bigger part of the culture war. I think, for Republicans, they'd

be best to focus on what are the incentives to get people to get vaccinated

so that we can all go back to normal, as opposed to more punishments.

But, Chris, this is also an opportunity for Congress to lead. And Congress

has failed here. You know, last year, in October, and -- and last month I

co-wrote two op-eds with Kendra Barkoff Lamy, who used to work for Joe

Biden, calling for Congress first to mandate testing for anybody who would

come in the Capitol. They failed to do that. Then last month, for vaccines

for anybody who was going to enter the Capitol. They have failed to do

that.

I'm so proud that Mitch McConnell was putting his money where his mouth is

and running ads in Kentucky, urging people to get vaccinated. But if

Congress can't do the job that it needs to do for itself, it sends a bad

message for the rest of the country and leaves those incentives on the

table that need to be really implemented for -- for the American people.

WALLACE: You know, we've talked so far today about Afghanistan, climate

change, COVID. Pretty bleak stuff. But, in fact, we forget that this

started out as a pretty good week and a big week for President Biden when

the Senate passed his $1 trillion infrastructure package on a big, strong,

bipartisan vote in the U.S. Senate.

Take a look at President Biden back a few days ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: After years and years of

infrastructure week, we're on the cusp of an infrastructure decade that I

truly believe will transform America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: But, Julie, now there's a sharp split among House Democrats -- the

bill has passed the Senate, it's in the House -- a sharp split among House

Democrats. You've got the moderates saying, look, this passed the Senate.

It's a trillion dollars. It's bipartisan. Let's pass it now and get it to

the president's desk. And then, on the other hand, the left wing of the

party in the House saying, no, no, we're not going to vote on this, we're

going to wait until we also get this $3 trillion plus spending bill. And

that could take months.

Where does that all stand now?

PACE: This is -- was a very brief moment of celebration for the White House

because this problem lingers now in the -- in the House where, you know,

Nancy Pelosi can't really pick which side of her party she is going to try

to appease here because she needs both. The Democrats' margin in the House

is so narrow that she needs to hold the entire party together in order to

get both of these pieces of legislation through. And so, you know, I -- I

think ultimately Democrats want both of these bills so badly that they will

find a way out of it, but getting there is really, really difficult. If the

moderates are really squeamish about the big price tag and the progressives

feel like this is their one chance to get something that big through and

they want commitments that that -- they're not going to walk away --

Democrats are not going to walk away from that bigger piece of legislation.

So Pelosi has a lot of navigating to do right now to keep this big tent

party together. But I -- I do think ultimately the -- the impetus for

Democrats to be able to get out of this year with both of these bills will

likely be so strong that they will find a way. But it's -- it's going to be

tense getting there.

WALLACE: Yes, well, let's talk about how tense it is, Juan. Who does Nancy

Pelosi, the speaker, need to worry about more at this point, the moderate

Democrats -- and there were nine of them who sent a letter to the

leadership this week who say, pass the infrastructure bill now, or the left

wing, people like "the squad," who are saying, no, no, you've got to wait

until the fall, you're going to have to get that whole reconciliation bill,

$3 trillion in social spending, and then we'll vote for both? Who does she

need to worry about more?

WILLIAMS: Well, she's -- clearly President Biden and Speaker Pelosi are on

the same page because they both say that they want to wait for the

reconciliation and they're going to do it together. But -- but I would just

advise you, Chris, to look back at Nancy Pelosi's track record here. After

the '08 recession, people said, oh, she's split between moderates and far

left on spending, on the stimulus. Then it came -- same issue about

Obamacare. Then, you know, cap and trade. In every case, Pelosi has had

success, a 100 batting average. One thousand batting average.

WALLACE: Yes, I was going to say, 100 gets you sent back to the minors.

Thank you, panel. See you next Sunday.

Up next, our "Power Player of the Week." He made an iconic speech six

decades ago calling TV up vast wasteland. What does he think of it today?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: It was 60 years ago this past May that the head of the Federal

Communications Commission made a speech that started a national debate. As

we first told you this spring, six decades later, he's still got strong

views.

Here's our "Power Player of the Week."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NEWTON MINOW, FORMER CHAIRMAN, FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION OF

THE

U.S.: I thought that we were wasting this extraordinary gift of

technology, and we were not using it to its full potential.

WALLACE (voice over): Newton Minow, President Kennedy's FCC chair, on why

he challenged TV broadcasters in 1961.

MINOW (May 9, 1961): Keep your eyes glued to that set until the station

signs off. I can assure you that what you will observe is a vast wasteland.

WALLACE: The phrase "vast wasteland" made headlines and struck a nerve. The

producer of "Gillian's Island" even named the boat that wrecked on that

three hour cruise the SS Minnow.

WALLACE (on camera): Were you surprised at the reaction?

MINOW: I was shocked. I think it was because print media was jealous of

television and they made a big fuss about it.

WALLACE (voice over): It's just one of Minow's many brushes with history.

JOHN F. KENNEDY, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Adlai E. Stevenson.

WALLACE: Working for Democratic Candidate Adlai Stevenson in 1956, Minow

came up with the idea for televised debates with President Eisenhower.

MINOW: Adlai's political advisers thought it would be perceived as a

gimmick and many of them thought Adlai would not do very well. So it was

rejected and never even proposed.

WALLACE: After Stevenson lost, Minow had some advice for a younger

politician about the next election.

MINOW: I said, Jack, I said, if you are still interested, you probably

could get the vice presidential nomination next time. And Jack Kennedy

looked at me and he said, vice president? Vice president? He said, I'm

going to run for president.

WALLACE: Kennedy won in no small part because of a televised debate with

Richard Nixon.

MINOW: By a funny coincidence, my college roommate --

SANDER VANOCUR: I'm Sander Vanocur.

MINOW: Sandy (ph) Vanocur turned out to be one of the questioners, one of

the panelists.

WALLACE (on camera): You're kind of the Forest Gump of the second half of

the 20th century, aren't you?

MINOW: I pop up at very, very odd places.

WALLACE (voice over): In 1988, Minow got his law firm to hire an summer

intern from Harvard.

MINOW: Barack came to work (INAUDIBLE) and his supervisor was a young

woman, also a Harvard Law graduate, named Michelle Robinson. And one night

Joe and I went to the movies and we ran into Michelle and Barack. They were

out on their very first date.

This is my favorite.

WALLACE: Now, at age 95, Minow is still a TV enthusiast.

MINOW: What channel shall we watch or shall we just wallow in the vast

wasteland?

WALLACE: And still a critic.

WALLACE (on camera): Do you see a connection between having so many choices

of television and the polarization in the country?

MINOW: Yes, I do. And I particularly see it when we don't agree on facts.

You must know the difference between a fact and an opinion.

WALLACE: You have been at the center of so many key events and you have

dealt with so many major figures in this country.

As you look back on your life, what are your thoughts?

MINOW: I'm so devoted to this country and been so fortunate to have been

involved in so many important things and I -- I -- every day I say thank

God for America.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: Minow says the goal for television should be to serve the public

interest. Back in that 1961 speech, he said history will decide whether

today's broadcasters employ their powerful voice to enrich the people or to

debase them.

Now, a personal note.

Remember how at the start of school you had to write a paper about what you

did on your summer vacation? Well, I spent the last few weeks having

surgery and then recovering to remove a skin cancer from my nose. They

caught it early and I'm fine, but, trust me, it's no fun. Please,, please

take this seriously. When you go out, wear sunscreen, and be sure to get a

regular skin check.

And that's it for today. Have a great week and we'll see you next FOX NEWS

SUNDAY.

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