'Fox News Sunday' on April 30, 2023

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Dobbs leak had an 'enormous impact' on SCOTUS itself: Elizabeth Wydra

A 'Fox News Sunday' panel of Carrie Severino, Elizabeth Wydra, Stephen Saltzburg and Megan Wold discusses the fallout from the Dobbs decision leak one year ago and the impact of ethics concerns on the Supreme Court.

This is a rush transcript of ‘Fox News Sunday’ on April 30, 2023. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

SHANNON BREAM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I'm Shannon Bream.

Now that President Biden is in, we know a lot more about how Democrats feel about him as their front runner.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm running for reelection.

BREAM (voice-over): The race for the White House is on. The president framing his case for a second term and dismissing concerns about his age.

And another Republican officially jumps into the GOP primary, challenging former President Trump.

ASA HUTCHINSON (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm a candidate for president of the United States.

BREAM: As Trump himself barnstorms New Hampshire still firmly leading the field.

TRUMP: We're 51 percent with all these people running. We're up 33 points.

BREAM: We'll ask RNC Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel about her party's plan to win back the White House, and whether we're truly in for a 2020 rematch.

TRUMP: I do look forward to the debate with Joe.

BREAM: RNC Chair Ronna McDaniel, only on "FOX News Sunday".

And then, House Republicans claimed victory, passing a debt limit bill. Speaker McCarthy again demanding that president come to the table. Many Senate Democrats now agree, saying it's time for the president to get real about a deal to avoid default. We will sit down with Maryland Democrat Chris Van Hollen for the latest on negotiations.

And --

CLARENCE THOMAS, U.S. SUPREME COURT ASSOCIATE JUSTICE: You begin to look over your shoulder.

BREAM: And one year since the leak of a draft Supreme Court opinion on abortion, the trail running cold. We'll bring in a group of legal insiders on the leak's lasting impact inside the secretive world of the nation's highest court, as it faces new ethics questions.

Plus, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis on a world tour to boost his foreign policy creds, as his spat with Disney escalates and his poll numbers fall.

Our Sunday panel is here on his chances as we wait to find out whether he's running.

All, right now, on "FOX News Sunday".

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BREAM (on camera): Hello from FOX News in Washington.

Now that both President Biden and former President Donald Trump are officially running in 2024, get ready to hear the word rematch a lot.

The polls indicate voters in both parties are not so enthusiastic about two front runners. Many telling pollsters they would be open to alternatives.

In a moment, Republican National Committee Chair Ronna McDaniel joins us in studio on the GOP field and the biggest issues the party faces heading into 2024.

But, first, let's turn to Lucas Tomlinson live in Washington with a look at the president's strategy as he asked for a second term.

Hello, Lucas.

LUCAS TOMLINSON, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Shannon, after months of anticipation, President Biden made it official, announcing he will be running for reelection.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BIDEN: Let's finish this job. I know we can.

TOMLINSON (voice-over): President Biden's campaign launch opens with January 6, abortion protests and MAGA, including an image of former President Trump and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis.

Biden mentions the word "freedom" six times in a three-minute video. He did not mention his age.

But the age question came up in a press briefing.

REPORTER: Is the president plan to serve all eight years?

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: That's something for him to decide.

TOMLINSON: The press secretary cleared up the confusion later, tweeting the president would serve all eight years.

The 2024 Republican candidate Nikki Haley did not mince words.

NIKKI HALEY (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The idea that he would make it until 86 years old is not -- is not something that I think is likely.

TOMLINSON: And potential Republican presidential candidate, Senator Tim Scott, appeared to go there, too.

SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): Well, that should be a scary proposition. The only thing worse than a Joe Biden presidency is a Kamala Harris presidency.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ladies and gentlemen, President Joe Biden.

TOMLINSON: Here in D.C., at the White House correspondents' dinner last night, President Biden kept lightly.

BIDEN: Look, you all keep reporting my approval rating is at 42 percent. Kevin McCarthy called me and asked me, Joe, what the hell is your secret?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TOMLINSON (on camera): And this week, our FOX News poll shows only 44 percent have a favorable opinion of President Biden, 56 percent say they have an unfavorable opinion of him -- Shannon.

BREAM: All right. Lucas, we're going to talk a lot more about those polls. Thank you so much.

Joining me now, Republican National Committee Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel.

Welcome back to "FOX News Sunday".

RONNA MCDANIEL, RNC CHAIRWOMAN: Great to be with you. Thanks -- thanks for having me.

BREAM: It's great to have you.

So, let's talk about this report that's getting a lot of attention. You guys just had a meeting in Oklahoma City. I'm told there was going to be a debrief of this.

But this is the headline from "The Washington Post": GOP study on poor 2022 election showing doesn't mention Trump. According to many in the party, that would produce an incomplete analysis at best fit.

Quote: What's the point of doing an analysis of the Republican Party if you're not looking at Trump? You're just wasting your time. That's from an RNC member anonymously.

The former president is clearly the biggest voice in the room for the party. He had great sway in getting candidates through the primaries that didn't do well in the general, missed a chance to retake the Senate.

How can you break down 2022 without talking about that president?

MCDANIEL: Well, let me say, first of all, "The Washington Post" does not have a final draft because there is not a final draft. Many of the committees have not completed that. So, that's inaccurate reporting.

What I will say is, the biggest takeaway we are taking is independents did not break our way, which has to happen if we're going to win in 2024, which usually that's what causes that red wave. And abortion was a big issue in key states like Michigan and Pennsylvanian.

And so, the guidance we're going to give to our candidates is you have to address this head-on. The Democrats spent $360 million on this and many of our candidates across the board refused to talk about it, thinking, oh, we can just talk about the economy and ignore this big issue, and they can't.

BREAM: Yeah. And there's still people, though, advising Republicans that way saying this issue is bad for you. It costs you. Don't do it.

But you have said you've got to take it head-on. You want people to articulate not only the Republican position but the Democrat position -- and yet so many of them when they are forced (ph) candidates or potential candidates to talk about this, they seem to still struggle with the answer.

MCDANIEL: Yeah, they're uncomfortable, but they can't be. And it's not just talking about it once. The Democrats are putting $360 million against you on TV, in lies. So, those lies become the truth if you don't fight back. So you need to say it loud.

Listen, I'm proud to be pro-life. The consensus -- we have to find consensus among Democrats and Republicans. Let's see where the Democrats are.

What abortion is a bad idea to Democrats? Ninth month, eighth month, seventh month? They can't even articulate an abortion that's a bad idea.

Gender selection, if it's a girl, you get to abort it. Tax-funded abortions for people where it's against their religious conscience. That's where Joe Biden was years ago.

So I think put them on the defensive and articulate where you stand and that's going to be that critical message that we have to get out before these -- before 2024.

BREAM: You guys, too, have started talking about issues early voting, mail in voting, ballot harvesting. That is something that former President Trump was one for years who railed very hard against that. He softened a bit.

But "The Wall Street Journal" has this question about whether it's too late. The damage has been done. They say his criticism of mail in voting before and since his 2020 loss helped chip away at GOP faith in early voting, polls show, party strategists say that's actually contributed to election defeat.

So, in 2020, nationwide, roughly 60 percent of Democrats voted early, and about 30 percent of Republicans. That had been more equal in 2016.

So how do you now convince people to embrace these methods that say you need to win when there's been such a negative connotation around them?

MCDANIEL: What I would say is we did it pretty successfully in 2022 in states like Florida and North Carolina and Ohio.

So even with ballot harvesting, we beat Democrats in three statewide races, in Nevada. We did it in California, the one that Duarte case (ph), and obviously in Montana for Zinke. So, we're doing it. The process is key.

I would say the Democrats still invest more in that. Republican investors wait until the candidate is picked at until the primaries are done, and Democrats are always investing in the process.

That's why the RNC is so critical. You have to invest early if you're going to educate voters and talk to them about the importance of banking votes early, and we need to do that. Bank your vote and go be a poll watcher and sign up to work on election day.

But that's something we're continually working on. But we did better than that than I think the media is saying. A state we do need to improve on that is Pennsylvania.

BREAM: Okay, and that's such a critical statement. So many of these races nationally and the Senate races in others, the gubernatorials.

So, let's talk about debates --

MCDANIEL: Yes.

BREAM: -- because those are coming.

President Trump has said that nobody consulted him or his campaign about the debates you have announced thus far. I'm assuming you're in conversations with all of these campaigns. Is that accurate?

MCDANIEL: Yeah, we're talking to all the campaigns and potential campaigns, right, because we don't -- not everybody has announced yet. I've talked to President Trump. Dave Bossie, who's running the debate committee, has talked and met with all the candidates.

Yes, we're talking with them all the time but, no, we're not asking them, where should we have it? Who should be the moderators? That would be inappropriate.

What I do know is we're going to have a great field and the next president of the United States is going to be on our debate stage.

BREAM: So, he has said some things about whether or not he'll be on that debate stage. Let me play a little bit of what he said a couple of days ago.

MCDANIEL: Sure.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: When you're way up, you don't do debates. If you're even or down, you do debates. But when you're way up, what's the purpose of doing the debate?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BREAM: He also wrote on Truth Social, he said, if you're leading by what he's called seemingly insurmountable numbers, and we get to the polls, why subject yourself to being libeled and abused.

So, what happens if he doesn't show up?

MCDANIEL: You know, that's his choice and every candidate is going to make that calculation. They're going to decide, when I do announce? Do I go to Ohio? Do I go to New Hampshire? Do I debate? And that's going to be his decision.

What I think is the American people want to see these candidates. They want to see what they're articulating and especially what is your plan to take us out of the misery of Joe Biden? What are you going to do to help our kids in school who are dealing with fentanyl and TikTok? What are you going to do to help get us energy independent?

People are really hurting right now in this country. So, I look at the debate not just about Republican against Republican. I look it as our party making a case as to why we should win the White House and defeat Joe Biden?

And that's one of the factors as to why I would say everybody should get on that debate stage.

BREAM: Does he miss an opportunity if he doesn't come? Or is he, as he says, sparing himself from potentially taking shots and taking hits that, you know, are tough for any campaign?

MCDANIEL: Well, he's going to make that determination. His campaign will make that determination. I will just say this -- people are struggling and they want to see our plan as a party as to how we're going to win.

So, I do think it's important to get on the debate stage, but also remember, hey, who are we against? It's Joe Biden. Who's doing this to our country? Joe Biden.

And I think one of the other takeaways we took from the midterms in 2022 is that we just don't just need independence, we need every Republican. And we need to bring every Republican together. We have states where Republicans wouldn't vote for Republican nominees and that was a big factor of why we lost some key Senate races.

So we need to come together and remember who we're against in November and that's going to be this Biden White House that is destroying our country.

BREAM: Do you feel like sometimes, though, you have to remind the former president about that message? Because he's been very influential in races, I think back to Georgia, you know, a couple of cycles back where people felt like they weren't going to show up because he told them that something unfair was going on.

MCDANIEL: I think there's a lot of people that need to be reminded that we need to remember that it's Joe Biden. And I think the voters feel that.

They feel that angst and they say that to me all the time. We need party unity. We need to bring everybody together because what they're doing to our country it's frightening.

We're not going to have the America we know and love if this continues, if they stack the Supreme Court, if they get rid of the filibuster, if they banned energy independence, if they're so beholden to China.

I mean, look it, China is running this White House in a lot of ways. China is the reason fentanyl is coming across our border. China is taking our kids' data on TikTok. We sold our strategic petroleum reserves to China.

This is an administration that is more China first than America first, and the American people want a president who cares about them.

BREAM: All right. Let's talk about the strategy that this president currently has to go back it took 2024. They say, basically, they want to do what they did in 2020, it worked for him, and what they think worked in the midterms in 2022 -- lay low, keep the spotlight on what they like to call MAGA extremists in the party.

One op-ed piece in "The New York Times" put it this way: Mr. Biden's biggest advantage might not come from anything he has actually done. Instead, it might come from the chaos among Republicans. This is welcome news for the president, who's fond of telling voters, and we both heard him say it last night, don't compare me to the Almighty, compare me to the alternative.

Democrats want to point to a split in the party, about everything from whether President Trump should be your nominee to where to draw the line on abortion, how to have that conversation.

How worried are you about the president's message there that he's going to point to you guys and say, America, they are too divisive, they're too extremist, you can't trust them?

MCDANIEL: Well, we are seeing this happen, right? And I'm not surprised he's going to hide. He's hid from the press. He's hid from the American people.

He doesn't take tough questions. He doesn't have to answer for anything, any of the scandals that he has in his presidency. So he is going to hide again and most of the media will allow him to do that.

But I do think he's right about one thing -- we cannot win if we're not united. If Republicans don't vote for other Republicans, we're not going to win. And we don't just need all of the Republicans, we need independents, too.

You know, Shannon, Republicans are migrating. They are migrating to red states. Why? Because we got great governors across the country, low taxes, our policies work.

But it means the White House electorally isn't available to us unless we go through a purple or blue state. And those states are getting bluer, because red voters are moving to the red states.

So, this is very, very critical that we understand the path to the White House runs not just through independents, but every single Republican getting on board.

BREAM: Do you have an idea about the pledge? Will you have everybody sign the pledge?

They did this back in 2016, included President Trump before he was president. He kind of balked at it at the end. To have them say if you want to be on the debate stage, you're going to have to support the eventual nominee.

I asked Governor Hutchinson about it last week. He's officially in now. He didn't like the sound of the pledge.

What's the status?

MCDANIEL: So, let me ask a Republican voter, go to our voters and say, do you think it's so critical if you get on the National Republican Committee debate stage that you're going to support the eventual nominee, and everyone will say yes. They do not want to see somebody take up our time and talk about all things unless they're pledged to beat Joe Biden.

They don't have to like each other. They don't have to hang out after this. I don't care about that. I want you to be focused on beating Joe Biden.

And that pledge is critical to the voters who don't want to see Republicans come out of this and focus more in each other than beating -- winning the White House.

BREAM: I want to quickly ask you about cultural issues, because we've got some new polling on this. And the issue of -- trans issues polling higher is people are more worried, voters are, about attacks on trans families than they are about trans people competing in sports. When asked about issues involving schools, the top concern you can see here was book banning.

Now, there's word major donor to the GOP, Peter Thiel, is unhappy and is going to hold his money out because he doesn't like these debates about abortion and trans and bathrooms and all of that.

Are you worried that these cultural issues are hurting that GOP?

MCDANIEL: Well, one, the Democrats are using this word book banning. You're seeing it a lot. You saw on Biden's launch.

That's a lie. There isn't book banning. What Republicans are doing are protecting our children and parental rights and saying five year olds shouldn't be reading sexually explicit material.

Ron DeSantis went in front of cameras read some of these books of new stations had to go away because the material was so explicit.

But now, we know their game plan, right? We can have a conversation about issues, and really what it is about is parents should have a say in what's happening with our kids. And I think most Americans support that.

But it's good to know the Democrats playbook and we're going to push on that, especially coming from the Democrat party that is banning freedom of speech, that is canceling people, that is destroying your life if you don't think with their orthodoxy. This is Democrat Party who is saying if you think outside of the box and everything we are dictating to you, you will make you lose your job, we will destroy you.

So they are banning people. They're banning freedom of speech and freedom of thought. Republicans are protecting children.

BREAM: All right. We will see you on the campaign trail. Much to come ahead the debates and beyond.

MCDANIEL: Thank you so much.

BREAM: Thank you.

MCDANIEL: Thank you.

BREAM: All right. Up next, there's renewed pressure on Democrats to potentially hold primary debates even with President Biden in as an incumbent and a clear primary frontrunner.

I'll bring a Democratic senator next to ask him whether the party should bring in all three declared candidates to their debate stage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BREAM: Now that the president has officially said he is running again, he faces serious scrutiny from Democrats. That's in part because he already has two primary challenges and that means pressure to explain his record and pressure on the party to maybe hold primary debates.

Joining me now to discuss, Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland.

Senator, welcome back to "FOX News Sunday".

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): It's great to be with you, Shannon.

BREAM: Good to see you this morning.

Okay, so the president has launched for reelection but he does some against challenging numbers. These are from FOX News, our brand-new polls. He's got a 56 percent unfavorable rating among registered voters. When we poll on everything from national security to immigration to the economy, he is upside down on all of those numbers.

Folks are giving him a bad report card and that includes Democrats who say they don't want to see him run.

So, are you worried about the lack of excitement, the dissatisfaction with his record going into 2024?

VAN HOLLEN: I'm not worried because he has a great record to run. Polls will go up. Polls will go down. But what won't change are the facts -- 12 million new jobs since he was elected president, which is a record, historical record, including the greatest growth in manufacturing jobs in 40 years, record low unemployment, 3.5 percent, I should say the lowest in 50 years.

So he's got a great economic record to run on. Inflation is coming down. That's obviously been an issue.

But I think he's got a great record to run on, and I think the polls will bounce around as they always do. But as the president said last night, you just quoted him. Don't compare me to the Almighty, compare me to the alternative.

BREAM: That's one of his lines. I think we'll hear again and again.

You talk about the economy but it's not translating to the average American. Our polling also shows that when people were asked how personally you're doing, because it's all about our families and how they're doing under roof, 70 percent of them said things are actually getting worse for them. I mean, that's happening on the president's watch.

VAN HOLLEN: Well, I think one of things you're seeing in polling these days is a great polarization between Democrats and Republicans even on questions like how are you feeling on the economy. If you look at --

BREAM: But it was the majority of Democrats within the poll also said things were getting worse for them.

VAN HOLLEN: Right. So, the issue of inflation has been very real. The good news is it is coming down. The other good news is the most recent economic report shows that people's real wages are going up. So, wages have now been going off, especially for lower and middle income families at a faster pace than inflation.

So, those are real gains and I think they will to continue. So, look, obviously, what's happening in the economy will also change, but I think the structural pieces of it are sound, and that's what's going to be important going into the election.

BREAM: What do you make about the debate over his age? Because both NBC and CBS have poll out that show, including Democrats, they are very worried about the issue of age.

"Axios" writes this: Even some of Biden's close advisors concede his age has diminished his energy, significantly limiting his schedule.

Michelle Goldberg writes over at "The New York Times" -- she thinks he's a great president but adds this: It's hard to ignore the toll of Biden's years no matter how hard elected Democrats try.

She says essentially he should be taking a victory lap, not watching a reelection campaign.

So what about this issue of age?

VAN HOLLEN: Well, I saw the president last night. He was in fighting form. I saw him at the event with the South Korean president, again, great press conference.

So, look, I think people should judge presidents on their performance and their record, not their age. And the president has a great record. I talked about some of the economic factors.

He's also one of the most protective presidents in recent history when it comes to a legislative record, major bipartisan victories, right? The -- we had the infrastructure bill. We had the CHIPS and Science bill to make sure we're competitive vis-a-vis China and others, and the veterans' health care bill. And there were also major wins when it came to bringing down the cost of prescription drugs and deploying more clean energy.

So, Shannon, what I would say is just look at his record. That's what we should be judging people on, not age.

BREAM: What do make of Senator Joe Manchin, one of your Democratic colleagues, who is very critical one of those major legislative successes for the president, for the White House? The Inflation Reduction Act, he says it's not being implemented in the way that it was written, and he's talking about if there was a vote of repeal, he would vote for it.

And he's been voting with Republicans quite a bit on a number of key issues recently. I mean, he's got a lot of criticism for this president.

VAN HOLLEN: Well, Joe Biden is doing what any senator should do, which is sticking up for his state and using his leverage however he can, and that's what Joe Biden is doing when it comes to --

BREAM: Joe Manchin.

VAN HOLLEN: Excuse me, I'm sorry. Joe --

BREAM: They're two Joes.

VAN HOLLEN: Exactly. That's what Joe Manchin is doing when it comes to these issues. He's fighting for West Virginia and using his leverage wherever he can.

So, look, I think if you look at the results of the Inflation Reduction Act, people are already seeing their prescription drug costs coming down, people on Medicare. That's real, as is the deployment of clean energy.

In my state of Maryland, we're going to have 10,000 new jobs because of offshore wind energy driven by some of the economic incentives in the Inflation Reduction Act.

BREAM: What do you make though of the new estimates that are coming out on that bill, as it's playing out in real time, saying it's actually going to be way more expensive that we thought was going to be on issues like green energy?

VAN HOLLEN: Well, first of all, we have some buffer room, right? The bill reduced the deficit over a 10-year period by over $250 billion. The fact that there's a greater appetite for clean energy is actually a good thing when it comes both to jobs and dealing with the climate crisis. So that bill has a built-in buffer, unlike many of the bills our Republican colleagues passed, like the, you know, Bush -- the Trump tax cuts. This was actually something that reduced the deficit.

BREAM: Okay. We'll watch as those numbers continue to come in.

I want to ask about the issue up access because you mentioned the president being out there, being vigorous. He hasn't done a serious sit-down with one of the major newspapers. Our polling shows that 76 percent of people say he needs to be holding regular press conferences. He's not doing that.

"The New York Times" noted this week: He has held the fewest news conferences since President Reagan. The "Axios" put this way: The White House is basically hiding Biden as he auditions for another term.

Does that lack of access feed this narrative that he is not up to the job and his staff is basically keeping him behind closed doors and that's how they plan to run the campaign, much like they did during 2020, because we had to because of COVID?

VAN HOLLEN: Well, Shannon, the president has been doing what he should be doing, which is going out around the country and meeting with people and talking about the results from his first two years. He has come to Maryland more than any other president in my memory. He's been there multiple times talking about the infrastructure, modernization bill, creating new tunnels making trips faster for commuters.

So, I think what he's doing is going around the country and talking directly to people. I know the Washington press corps always wants to hear more from the president.

BREAM: We do.

VAN HOLLEN: We heard from him just the other day when the South Korean president was here and they asked him a lot of questions, including about the age issue.

BREAM: So, let's talk about debates, too, because there are Democrats challenging the president within the primary. RFK Jr. comes in on our poll, 19 percent. I mean, that's a hefty number.

He's not the only one who says they should have some primary debates.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR. (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think he has an obligation to democracy to debate anyway. I mean, I would hope that he does.

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD, HOST: Put Joe Biden upon that stage with Bobby Kennedy who's challenging him and Marianne Williamson and whoever steps up to the plate and let's have a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) discussion, you know?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: A bleep on Sunday morning.

Why not?

VAN HOLLEN: Well, that's up to the president's campaign. I mean, this is early. He just announced his reelection campaign.

These are decisions every campaign makes both with respect to the primary and the general. I think the president is going to keep his eye on the ball, which is winning the general election. That's what's important for the country. What they decide to do in the primary, only time will tell.

BREAM: Okay. So, in the meantime, he's got to get through this debt ceiling issue which you all are very locked in. There's been criticism. He says he doesn't want to negotiate over anything. Republicans have to come to the table.

Well, the speaker got something passed that includes raising the debt ceiling. Who's game is it now? Because there are Democrats, plenty of folks within your party who say, okay, the president has made his point but they have to start negotiating.

VAN HOLLEN: So, Shannon, what he said is that he's not going to negotiate with people who are threatening to literally blow up our economy, right? Put more people out of work, drive up costs in order to get their way. And that's what he said.

(CROSSTALK)

BREAM: But the (INAUDIBLE) speaker does raise the debt ceiling.

VAN HOLLEN: It does but then it says in order to raise the ceiling, we're going to cut veterans. We're going to cut law enforcement. We're going to cut border security. We're going to cut all sorts of things. We're going to put China back in the driver's seat when it comes to clean energy.

So, what the president is saying, he's not going to negotiate with someone who's actually threatening the economy, taking the entire economy hostage. He will sit down with Speaker McCarthy to talk about these issues in the framework of the budget and the appropriations process.

President Biden has put a plan on the table, quite a detailed budget, much more detailed than what Speaker McCarthy and the House just passed, that has $3 trillion in deficit reduction over the next ten years, primarily by asking very, very wealthy people, billionaires and big corporations, to pay more.

Speaker McCarthy has a plan that cuts about I think $4.5 trillion over ten years, through dramatic cuts but threatening the destruction of the U.S. economy. So --

BREAM: When do they get to table? They're clearly far apart. But they've got to get somewhere.

VAN HOLLEN: What you've got to do with not threaten the detonation of the economy. So, for example, Senator Mitch McConnell years ago when we came to this kind of impasse and said, okay, if Congress doesn't want to do its job and actually pay to make sure the United States pays the bills, which as we will know, our bills that are already due and owing. Already due and owing.

BREAM: Right. Which, by the way, President Biden has voted against that as a senator.

VAN HOLLEN: Right. But so -- but if you want to -- if you want to do that, give the president the authority to do it, subject to a veto, subject to an override. So that's the way to do it.

If Republicans don't want to do what's necessary to prevent the meltdown of the economy, left President Biden do that and then let's negotiate on important issues, of priorities, how you best achieve deficit reduction.

Republicans always talk about reducing the deficit but they never want to raise one penny in income taxes on very wealthy people and corporations.

BREAM: Yeah. They differently have a difference of opinion on how to get there, but hopefully the two sides do have some chats about it.

Senator, thank you for coming in. Good to see you.

VAN HOLLEN: Thanks, Shannon. Good to see you.

BREAM: All right. Up next, brand new FOX News polls with some telling numbers for both the presidential primaries and for the gun-control debates. We'll bring our Sunday panel to analyze America's mindset heading into 2024 and a little bit of humor from last night's correspondents' dinner.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And Ron DeSantis -- I had a lot of Ron DeSantis jokes ready, but Micky Mouse beat the hell out of me and got there first.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: President Biden joking about Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, who may soon join the race to try to unseat him.

Time now for our Sunday group.

"Jewish Insider" editor-in-chief and "Axios" contributor Josh Kraushaar, former State Department spokesperson and Fox News contributor Marie Harf, former Utah Congressman Jason Chaffetz, and author, legal commentator and Project 21 chairman Horace Cooper.

Welcome to all of you.

HORACE COOPER, PROJECT 21 CHAIRMAN, AUTHOR AND LEGAL COMMENTATOR: Good morning.

JOSH KRAUSHAAR, JEWISH INSIDER EDITOR-IN-CHIEF AND "AXIOS" CONTRIBUTOR: Good morning.

BREAM: You made it through the thunderstorms this morning to make it here.

OK, so let's talk about Governor DeSantis. This is the "Politico" headline. He's got a $110 million ticket to the White House. He sits atop accounts poised to support his candidacy with that total. And that's all without him opening an official campaign committee account.

Jason, you met with other major donors over in Israel this week. Will the money be enough to jumpstart him where the polls say he's lagging (ph)?

JASON CHAFFETZ (R), FORMER UTAH CONGRESSMAN AND FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, money does solve a lot of problems. And when you've got $110 million, more than double anybody else, then it's going to go a long way. Super PACs are already out there spending money. You see ads and that fight's already on. This Florida state legislature has got to pass a piece of legislation so he could declare. But I think everybody understands that, yes, Ron DeSantis is - is running for President of the United States.

BREAM: OK, so here's our latest polling. This is among Republican primary voters about who they prefer it this point. President Trump with that commanding lead at 53 percent. Ron DeSantis at 21 percent. And we trickle down from there. Nikki Haley bumping up a little bit and Vivek Ramaswamy as well.

But, Horace, where do you think this field stands. One headline this week, is Donald Trump inevitable. Is he?

COOPER: You know, we are very, very early. I will just tell you, in my experience, since 1993 I have not seen, after a presidential election, the loser ending up in surveys prevailing over the victor. And yet you didn't see that in '93, you didn't see it in '97, you didn't see it in 2001. You go all the way, even to 2017, Hillary Clinton never led Donald Trump. We are seeing now more than a dozen times in the last year Donald Trump ahead. That is a very good position to be in.

So, there's no doubt that there is still a residual level of support among Republicans and apparently even among a large number of Americans who may now see the policies of Joe Biden may regret them.

BREAM: Well, our polling shows, as I talked about with our first two guests, that President Biden is not polling well. People are mad at him on all kinds of topics. And this poll here, on Democratic primary voters, the first one that we've had since RFK Jr. entered the race, and he comes in at nearly 20 percent. That's against an incumbent president, Marie.

MARIE HARF, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON AND FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think there's a lot of interesting things in these polls. I would also note that the people that have lower approval ratings than Joe Biden. That includes Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis. So, people talk about Biden's approval rating. His two main competitors are actually less popular than he is.

BREAM: Well, when you look at favorability, they're almost equal.

HARF: But they're -- but they're lower.

And, look, I think the Biden team feels good about that campaign relaunch this week. They started with this campaign video about freedom, talking about the things Republicans are doing in states, from banning books to, you know, anti-LGBTQ laws. And they say Joe Biden's going to go out. He's going to talk about the economy. He's going to talk about the manufacturing jobs he's helped create - his policies have created. And the leading candidate on the Republican side is facing multiple criminal investigations.

You know, Ronna McDaniel was so interesting earlier when she talked about independent voters. That's who elected Joe Biden. And those are the people that, I think, are very tired of Donald Trump, don't like Ron DeSantis' extreme culture war policies. And the Biden team is going after with their messaging this week about freedom and about getting the job done.

BREAM: Well, and on the issue of economy, because we know a lot of voters are swayed by that, Josh, our polling showed that when we talk about people who aren't doing well, as I talked about early in the show, 70 percent of people say things are getting worse for their families. That number is even higher among independents. I think it's around 73 percent. Will they vote about that or will they vote about what Marie is saying?

KRAUSHAAR: They're going to vote on pocketbook issues. And that is President Biden's biggest venerability. I watched his re-election announcement, the video, didn't say a thing about policy. Didn't really talk about the economy. And it's not a coincidence because a majority - a clear majority of voters are worried about their economic circumstances. And if we have a recession, if the volatility in the stock market, in 401ks that people are experiencing hits right around the time of the election, anyone can - you know, Trump, or any other Republican, is capable of winning this election. And I think that's what's keeping Democrats up at night, the fact that poll after poll shows a very competitive race between even Biden and Donald Trump. This is not the type of blowout that I think some Democrats had been anticipating. So, the economy is the x factor and it's going to be the biggest issue for the 2024 campaign.

BREAM: We also did a lot of polling on other hot-button issues, including guns. I want to put this up. Proposals to reduce gun violence. They have enormous support across the board for things like background checks, which, by the way, are mostly done with nearly every gun sale in this country, existing gun laws, enforce those, a lot of people for that, and other things that you can see here. But is there actually, Jason, do you think, any appetite on Capitol Hill to take some of these, where there is wide agreement, and put them into a piece of legislation?

CHAFFETZ: Well, certainly guns does not have wide agreement out there. The Biden administration just recently announced that they're going to go after shooting sports and - and that is not going to play well particularly in the - in the heartland.

The reality is, with a divided government, you're not going to have much of legislation anything pass. As a conservative, I happen to think that that's a good thing. I'm OK with that. But I've got to tell you, Joe Biden, if he doesn't get out there and talk about policy, and he hasn't, because he doesn't have - if you talk about inflation, for instance, what's the Joe Biden plan to tackle inflation. Nobody knows what the answer to that is because he doesn't have a plan.

So, you combine that with the inability to communicate and a vice president who's - who's equally as bad at communicating, I think that type of - of situation is - is just right for Republicans.

BREAM: Well, and Horace, how much time do you think Republicans are going to talk about the vice president because you heard what Nikki Haley said this week and she got a lot of backlash for saying President Biden might not make it to 86, but it does cast added attention on the vice presidential person that's on the ticket.

COOPER: OK, So the Democrats are boosting Kamala, saying, if you watch this campaign video, she was all over it some 16 or 17 times. They're boosting saying, you vote for Joe Biden and you'll get Kamala Harris. Presumably that means perhaps he's not going to finish his term.

I would say the real answer here is, promise or threat, because she is probably the least popular vice president that we have seen in a hundred years, and she hasn't improved. She's had two and a half years to get better, and she's not.

One quick thing about that 2022 election. "The National Journal" and "The New York Times" both came together and they said, Election Day 2022 was 297 electoral votes for the GOP if it had been a presidential year and that Republican votes outnumbered. If my Dallas Cowboys were favored by 20 for the Super Bowl and they only won 3, I'd still celebrate. The left has decided that they're going to try a rerun of what they did in 2022, not a real campaign, not a real platform, but just wedge. I don't believe it's going to work.

BREAM: I quickly want to ask about, because, as I mentioned, the president is under water on nearly every major issue. That includes the border and immigration. Title 42 is going away on May 11th.

"The National Review," since you mentioned them - oh, you said "National Journal."

COOPER: Yes.

BREAM: This is "National Review," a different publican, but here - here's what they said about the plan that the Biden administration has put together. It says the plan is lawlessness atop lawlessness all the way down. They say it's really accommodating the wishes of foreigners rather than the immigration limits that have been placed by elected officials here in America, Marie.

HARF: Well, we heard the secretary of state and homeland security this week talk about their plan. They're going to surge resources to the borders. They're going to have these processing centers in other countries to try and help stem this - this really crush of people we're seeing. But Democrats will also say to you, you know, we've been making policy, we've been passing bills, we've been rebuilding your communities, and Republicans in Congress have done nothing about this issue that they seem to care about. It's all rhetoric. That's what you'll hear.

BREAM: A quick thought or comment.

KRAUSHAAR: Yes, immigration is one of the weakest issues for the Democrats. And the White house can talk about what they're doing, but once Title 42 goes away, and if you see a surge of illegal migrants crossing the border, it's going to be a big weight on the political fortunes of the Democratic Party.

BREAM: And I think all sides admit that is coming in May.

All right, panel, thank you very much. We'll see you next Sunday.

Up next, it is one of Washington's biggest mysteries, who leaked that Supreme Court draft ruling on abortion a year ago? Now one of the justices says he's got a good idea who it was. We'll discuss with a panel of insiders who know the court very well, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BREAM: Just one year ago, and unknown person kicked off a firestorm by leaking a draft of a Supreme Court ruling on abortion. The ruling, published by "Politico," suggested a legal earthquake was coming as the justices were poised to overturn Roe v Wade. Just this week Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito told "The Wall Street Journal" he has theories about who leaked up draft and why. In a moment, my panel of legal insiders, including multiple former Supreme Court clerks, joins me live.

But first, a look at what happened once that draft went public.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CROWD: Roe v. Wade has got to go.

CROWD: We won't go back.

BREAM (voice over): Pro-choice and pro-life groups flooded the streets in front of the Supreme Court as soon as the high stake's draft ruling leaked. And demonstrations didn't stop there.

CROWD: We said pro-choice.

BREAM: As abortion rights groups protested outside the Republican appointed justices' homes.

The justices themselves were stunned at the breach of trust the leak exposed.

CLARENCE THOMAS, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: It was beyond anyone's understanding, or at least anyone's imagination, that somewhat would do that.

BREAM: Chief Justice John Roberts quickly ordered the court's marshal to conduct an internal investigation. But after eight months, a public statement from the court indicated the marshal was not able to find the leaker or figure out how they did it. The nine justices left with the fallout.

THOMAS: Look where we are. Where now that trust or that belief is gone forever. It changes the institution fundamentally. You begin to look over your shoulder.

BREAM: And in the months after the end of Roe, Gallup polling showed Americans trust in the court dropped. When asked that summer about the polls, one of the justices who dissented from that landmark opinion sought to reassure.

SONIA SOTOMAYOR, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: We have to have continuing faith in the court system, in our system of government. Continuing the battle each day to regain the public's confidence.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BREAM: We have assembled a powerhouse legal panel to talk about the court one year after that leak, and now facing new ethics questions. Judicial Crisis Network president and former clerk for Justice Clarence Thomas, Carrie Severino, Constitutional Accountability President Elizabeth Wydra, George Washington University law professor and former clerk for Justice Thurgood Marshall, Steve Saltzburg, and legal partner at Cooper & Kirk and former clerk for Justice Samuel Alito, Megan Wold.

Think you all for giving us your time today. We appreciate this.

One year out, we still have more questions than answers, most of us. I want to play -- read something from "The Wall Street Journal," Justice Alito speaking out this week about this said, I personally have a pretty good idea who is responsible. It was part of an effort to prevent the Dobbs draft for becoming the decisions of the courts. And that's how it was used for those six weeks by people on the outside as part of the campaign to try to intimidate the courts.

Megan, you clerked for the justice. What do you make of his comments and where we are a year later?

MEGAN WOLD, CLERKED FOR JUSTICE SAMUEL ALITO AND COOPER & KIRK PARTNER: Well, apparently, we will never know who leaked this draft opinion in the Dobbs case. Obviously, the standard for - for stating a name, as Justice Alito said, is very high. But it's very clear what the intention of this person was. It was to influence the outcome of Dobbs, to change that decision. And the effect was predictable. We saw immense public pressure on the justices, including protests outside of their homes, threats on their lives and one man appearing at Justice Kavanaugh's doorstep with the intent to kill. This ultimately diminishes our confidence for all Americans. It really affects all of us because this person had a vigilante impulse. What they couldn't accomplish within the law, they decided to try to accomplish outside of it.

BREAM: He also talks about the frustration of finger-pointing at potentially the conservative justices or somebody that would support their position saying, essentially they became targets of assassination, Carrie.

CARRIE SEVERINO, CLERKED FOR JUSTICE CLARENCE THOMAS AND JUDICIAL CRISIS NETWORK PRESIDENT: Absolutely. I think this is why it's clear this wasn't - - wasn't someone from the right who would do this. It's -- everybody from day one has understood that the goal here to try to change the opinion was something that would come from the left. And the threats were, obviously, targeted at the conservative justices, up to and including a threat of assassination, doxing of the justices, doxing of where they attend church, where their children go to school. This is really a serious problem for the justices. Safety and, obviously, for the internal workings of the court.

BREAM: And a lot of frustration because we never got those answers from the Supreme Court's public release when they talked about the investigation in January of this year, some individuals admitted to investigators that they told their spouse or partner about the draft Dobbs opinion and the vote count in violation of the court's confidentiality rules.

Professor, as somebody whose clerked there, did that surprise you at all?

STEPHEN SALTZBURG, CLERKED FOR JUSTICE THURGOOD MARSHALL AND GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY LAW PROFESSOR: It did surprise me. The justices, at least when I was there, made it very clear, they trusted you and you weren't to talk to anybody about what was going on until an opinion was amounts. And I think we adhered to that and - and we understood how important it was.

Do you think we are ever going to know what's what is your thought about the long-term impact on people being able to trust the court goes on there?

ELIZABETH WYDRA, CONSTITUTIONAL ACCOUNTABILITY CENTER PRESIDENT: Yes, absolutely. You know, I think that the leak has had, you know, a really enormous impact on the court itself, on the inner workings of the court. I think that, you know, we've seen, as Justice Thomas said, you know, in your intro, distrust inside the court.

But I think if we look outside the court, I think the leak itself was not really what's caused these changes in poll numbers and having faith in the Supreme Court. I think it's really more about what was in the draft opinion that was leaked because I think probably if you think about Americans who are working hard, trying to put food on the table, take care of their kids, you know, they probably aren't following the leak story super closely. But pretty much everyone knows that Roe versus Wade was overturned.

BREAM: And - and one of the criticisms came with specific reference to Justice Thomas' concurrence with Dobbs. I know the people who object, not only to the broader ruling, but that as well, he said this, in future cases we should reconsider all of this court's substantive due process precedents, including Griswold, Lawrence, and Obergefell. Here's what President Biden said that day about that portion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Justice Thomas' said as much today. He explicitly called to reconsider the right of marriage quality, the right of couples to make their choices on contraception. This is an extreme and dangerous path the court is now taking us on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: Carrie, we've heard those words used a lot, extreme. This court cannot be trusted, its illegitimate.

SEVERINO: Yes, I mean, so the legitimacy attacks, I think, are really just amount to name calling. We know that these justices were all legitimately appointed, but the president conferred by the Senate.

I think one of the unfortune things about that concurrence is it's allowed people to demagogue about issues that there are what the opinion is actually about. Justice Thomas frequently writes concurring opinions that talk about other theories that maybe he's the only one in the justice -- on the court to hold, and certainly aren't what's going on before the case. The court and the opinion made very clear is - is clearly limited to abortion and I think it's - it's also very clear that while Justice Thomas is willing to consider rethinking substantive due process, doesn't mean some of those rights might not come in through other areas, because Justice Thomas believes in the privileges immunity clause, which other justices don't follow, right? But that there certainly aren't a large number of votes for that on the court right now. I think most of this is just demagoguing and trying to change the subject from the limited nature of that opinion itself. It's clearly significant, but it doesn't have the impact that some people are trying to henny penny about.

BREAM: Well, he's been in the headlights, as many others have been, recently. Here are some of them on ethics questions. "Pro Publica " saying, Clarence Thomas' secret life of luxury. "Vanity Fair," whoops, Neil Gorsuch also made big money from a Dubious real estate deal. "Politico," Jane Roberts, who is married to Chief Justice John Roberts, made $10.3 million in commissions from elite law firms, whistleblower documents show.

Professor, what do you make of these calls for the court now to step up, draft, adopt a code of conduct?

SALTZBURG: I think it's long overdue for the court to have a code of conduct. And these revelations are historic. You look back, aside from Abe Fortus (ph), whose misconduct involved $20,000 in a payment, you look at the history, the Supreme Court's been great about avoiding financial improprieties and the like. And this is called into question I guess the -- for good reason, the ethics of this court.

BREAM: "The Federalist" says, though. They said, the only thing that matters is creating the perception that conservative justices are corrupt. It's all part of a concerted effort to delegitimize a Supreme Court that still occasionally upholds a semblance of constitutional limits on the statement, the one thing still standing in the way of progressive progress.

Megan, what do you make of that, of these headlines, of these questions.

WOLD: The headlines are really political mudslinging. The justices here didn't do anything wrong. Some of them accurately reported transactions and some of them didn't report things that no one would have to report. The purpose is exactly what - what that article said, it's to influence the outcome of the court, and to do so illegitimately. There are Democrats in Congress who want to impose restrictions on the justices in order to exert more control over their lives, over the lives of their spouses and ultimately to influence outcomes because if justices need to recuse themselves, there's no one to take their place, and so it really affected the makeup of the court and how cases are decided.

BREAM: Yes, and, so, Elizabeth, this is coming against the backdrop of a bipartisan call now in the Senate. There's a bill coming together to force the justices to write and adopt this new code of conduct. But there's an interesting opinion piece in "The Washington Post" that said it's possible that that is one branch infringing on another and that really are separate for good reason, and that there are corruption laws, there's impeachment for the justices. They're still subjected to those kinds of things.

WYDRA: So, we have checks and balances in the Constitution and the Supreme Court is, obviously, subject to checks and balances, just like the other branches of government. And it's required under the law that we have both the appearance and the reality of impartiality when it comes to our judicial branch. And the Supreme Court, as the highest court in the land, should be even more - that should be even more true. And so I think the idea that they aren't bound to an ethics code in the same way that every lower federal court judge is perhaps suggest that the appearance of impartiality, and we'll put aside the reality for a moment, is not really getting through to the public. And so I think it is really something that is appropriate for Congress, doing its oversight authority, engaging in its oversight authority, to consider whether reforms need to be made or not.

BREAM: We'll see if the appetite is there, especially in a bipartisan format.

Thank you all very much for your time today. We appreciate having you in.

Up next, a look at what millions around the world call the original love story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BREAM: Just a quick note, my podcast "Livin' the Bream" drops this morning. Brand new this week features a deep dive into the story millions consider the very first love story, Adam and Eve. Check out my conversation with podcasts, subcultural scholars, and authors Gabe and Rebecca Lyons (ph). It is the final in the series of podcasts on my new book "Love Stories of the Bible Speak."

And you can hear all of today's program on the FOX NEWS SUNDAY podcast. Download and subscribe at foxnewspodcasts.com or wherever you like to get your podcasts.

That's it for today. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm Shannon Bream. Have a great week. We'll see you next FOX NEWS SUNDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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