Former Chicago Police Sergeant: Today's shooters are tomorrow's victims

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Former Chicago Police Sergeant: Today's shooters are tomorrow's victims

Retired Chicago Police Sgt. Peter Koconis on Chicago crime wave, recent shootings on 'The Story.'

This is a rush transcript from "The Story," September 3, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, ANCHOR: Hey there, Bret. Thank you very much.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mayday, mayday, mayday! Conception. 29 POB.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: So, tonight, we investigate the horrific loss of life in the California dive boat fire. The NTSB is about to announce brand new information in this case just moments from now.

And then, we're going to be joined exclusively by the lead investigator on the ground who was just there spending time with the families.

Also, this evening, an exclusive interview with former defense secretary James Mattis, of the president's he has served and the commander-in-chief whom he says made "catastrophic decisions"

Also, what Joe Biden told him back in Baghdad? But first, the storm that took out 13,000 homes, that's an early estimate and has claimed lives, at least, five lives. But when you look at this amazing devastation, I mean, you just can't imagine that it's not going to be higher than that sadly.

It is now the storm dangerously close to Florida. So, now the question is where is it headed next? Correspondent Jeff Paul in Cocoa Beach, tonight in Florida where they're feeling some of the bands of this tonight.

Jeff, what do you see there?

JEFF PAUL, CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Martha. These outer bands are really starting to work through the area herein this low-lying coastal community of Cocoa Beach. The wind gusts are really picking up, the rain is now coming down, and if these waves give you an indication of anything of what's to come from Hurricane Dorian, it is nothing to mess with.

Now, and a quick drive around town, you can tell this community is ready for whatever this storm should bring. A lot of the homes have plywood in front of the windows and some of the doors. The businesses have been closed for several days in this community at this point because they have had so many days to prepare, and this storm has moved so slowly. They are just ready to get it over with.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our house is ready, we're ready, but I'm grateful that it's moving out. But, it's just I wish you would do something, good God. Dorian go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are watching the -- what it did in the Bahamas, just sit there and spin for days. It just wears on you, you know, you're like, come on, crap or get off the pot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL: Now, a quick drive through town and this is what you'll see, utility trucks are lined up and ready to respond to any sort of power outages and down power lines.

Florida Power and Light, says it has 17,000 workers on board right now. Almost 60 drone teams and have enough fuel and beds to get their crews through days of recovery efforts.

There are also have pre-positioned transformers and poles, should any of them need to be replaced. If you talked to any of the emergency responders who have been through a few of these hurricanes, what they're concerned right now with this hurricane moving off the coast, of course, the winds, the rains, but it's mostly the storm surge at this point.

All of this water over here you see, the ocean could come rushing towards many of the homes that are just built right up to the ocean, expecting anywhere from three to seven feet, and that's what the concern is right now is all the flooding. Martha.

MACCALLUM: Jeff, thank you very much.

Joining me now in studio, Fox News chief meteorologist Rick Reichmuth. Rick, good to have you here. What do you seeing tonight?

RICK REICHMUTH, CHIEF METEOROLOGIST: Thank you. We have a lot better agreement right now about what's going to happen. And we will for sure, the center of the storm will stay off of the coast of Florida, which is good.

There is going to be impacts, but nothing as we thought that could have been so devastating. The thing that's been so interesting about this storm is we could not pinpoint exactly where it would stall, and make the turn.

Had that stall happened, 100 miles to the west had would have happened right over Miami or right over West Palm. And the images that we're seeing out of the Bahamas now is what we would have seen there instead.

It would have been great, had it happened maybe in between or it had happened just before Bahamas. These pictures of the Bahamas are really heartbreaking. And I -- this is just the first aerials we're seeing. We'll see a lot more out of this.

But thankfully, what happened to Bahamas won't happen anywhere here in the U.S. That said, going forward, we are going to watch this storm move very close to Canaveral -- Cape Canaveral overnight tonight.

We'll see some certainly some strong winds, some rain -- some storm surge. But I think our biggest impacts across U.S. are going to be when this storm gets up around areas of the Carolinas.

So, and that's where we'll probably most of our guidance is really kind of clustered in the same spot. I think we'll be seeing a landfall somewhere maybe on the North Carolina coastline, probably of a Cat 1 or Cat 2 storm.

One thing on this radar image that shows me though, sometimes, usually the right side of the storm is where we have most of the moisture or oftentimes that's the case. This is really packed on the left side of the storm and that's the side of the storm that is right there close to Florida.

So, we're going to get some flooding rain out of this. And probably, the worst of that is going to be up across areas of the Carolinas. This is going to be there by Thursday night into Friday. So, we have a couple more days to get through this. And by Friday night to Saturday, finally, this one will be gone. But this has been a long one. And the folks in the Bahamas --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Yes, yes, it's unbelievable. I mean, as you say, my heart just breaks for these people.

REICHMUTH: Yes.

MACCALLUM: Like you look at the -- just complete devastation. Its houses just blown apart all across the middle of this island. So, yes, we are thankful that this didn't happen in Florida, of course, but it did happen somewhere, and it happened in the Bahamas.

I'm about to talk to a member of our coast guard who's working with the British royal -- the British Navy to try to -- you know, send some help there. But, you know, when you -- when you look out at what's going to happen along our coast, Rick, is it going to be just a water event or is it -- is there a possibility for damage in this, as you see it?

REICHMUTH: For sure there's a possibility of damage. There will -- it will be a water event along the coast. So, it won't be a very far interior storm. So, it's going to be primarily a coastal storm.

I do worry a bit because North Carolina had hurricane Florence last year.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

REICHMUTH: Which was a really big storm, brought in more rain than they'd ever seen from a tropical storm, caused incredible flooding. They're going to have some impacts from this.

It's been such an active three-year period with storms. We had a Cat 5 last year with hurricane Michael, hitting Florida. We had Maria in Puerto Rico, we had the Virgin Islands that were pummeled. We had the Florida Keys and now, Bahamas.

So, many areas in the last few years with these incredible storms. And this one here.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

REICHMUTH: You know, probably, a bit of a more populated area, Puerto Rico, obviously, more populated than this but these --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Anything else out there that you're concerned about right now because we are on the season.

REICHMUTH: Yes, this is -- we are, and worried that this week is the peak of hurricane season. There is five different things that are out there. This is the only one wherein the short term concerned about.

I think we're good for, at least, 10 to 12 days after that, a little bit early to say.

MACCALLUM: There's to wind down. All right, thank you very much, Rick. Great to have you here throughout all of this. As I said, the United States Coast Guard has been hard at work in the Bahamas, evacuating residents, providing aid through efforts by sea and by air, despite officials warning that rescuers have faced "accident-prone conditions" that will only get worse.

Captain James Passarelli is the chief of staff for Coast Guard forces in the district prepping for Hurricane Dorian. And he joins me now by phone. Captain, thank you very much for being here.

What are the biggest challenges and what's your focus right now?

CAPT. JAMES PASSARELLI, CHIEF OF STAFF, SEVENTH COAST GUARD DISTRICT (through telephone): Good evening, Martha, and thanks for having me on.

MACCALLUM: Thank you.

PASSARELLI: Right now, our biggest challenge is the conditions that we're seeing on scene. We've set up a forward operating location on the island of Andros, which is at a U.S. Navy facility. And we're trying to get flights into the northern Bahamas.

Starting from the east, we've been able to get over to the Abacos, to places like Sandy Point, and Marsh Harbor. But the weather conditions have kept us from going any further to the west towards Grand Bahama Island, then, a place called Coopers Town. The weather has been severe.

This has really hampered our search efforts as we try to get in there and getting people out. To date, we've done let's see 16 total sorties and rescued about 47 people. And those people are largely medical evacuees from the clinic in Marsh Harbor.

And what we've been doing is putting a doctor and some corpsman on the ground there to help triage and get the most critical patients back to Nassau on the island of New Providence. But it's very challenging for our crews.

MACCALLUM: Yes, I mean, they obviously need your help. And I know that you're working in coordination with the British Royal Navy and the -- their forces as well.

PASSARELLI: Martha, we're there at the request of and in coordination with the government of the Bahamas. They have asked for our help, they've also asked for the Royal Navy. Royal Navy has one ship that's fighting to get to the scene. But weather conditions have kept them from getting close to Grand Bahama Island as well.

There are several coast guard cutters and route in addition to our aircraft. But it is a large effort, and the U.S. government's lead for this is the USAID, Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance or OFDA.

So, they have the lead and we will shift very quickly from our search and rescue efforts to supporting them.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Now, that's so -- yes. And so often the case that the United States is out in front, and helping in this kind of situation. I know that your pilots have been dealing with 80-mile an hour winds. And having airstrips that are feasible is one of the biggest logistical issues, right?

PASSARELLI: That is a huge challenge for us now. When you get into places where the airstrips have been completely underwater, and you can't land an aircraft on that until when the water recedes, and you do a safety inspection on that, that runway.

Places like -- excuse me, Treasure Cay where the runway appears intact but the roadway to get to it has been washed out that inhibits our abilities there. Luckily, with our helicopters, we're able to get in just about anywhere.

But getting those airstrips open will be critical to relief efforts when the government of the Bahamas wants to get in there and provide temporary shelters, and food, and medical services for their residents up in those islands.

MACCALLUM: Captain, are you seeing people on the rooftops? People, who are -- you know, trying to get attention to be rescued?

PASSARELLI: We have. Yes. So, as we're going into, again, we've only been as far as about half the island of the Abacos. So, we haven't gotten on to Grand Bahama Island yet. But we are seeing people that are stranded. The water is largely receding from places such as Marsh Harbor.

But again, we're right now, medevacing those medically critical patients back to Nassau, and those hospitals are recommend.

MACCALLUM: This is a beautiful place and wonderful people, and they're going to need a lot of help. And we thank you very much for being there for them, all of you, and the Coast Guard doing great work, and we will be following it.

Thank you so much, Captain Passarelli, for taking some time with us tonight. We appreciate it.

PASARELLI: Thank you, Martha. I'll just reiterate, the conditions there are still very dangerous. We've got lots of folks that want to help and send their boats and their private aircraft there. That's a very dangerous situation right now.

There is no air traffic control capability on Grand Bahama right now. So, we need folks to keep their private planes at home until the Bahamas get the air control space back together.

MACCALLUM: Good advice. We'll wait for -- their way for further instruction. Thank you very much, Captain.

Coming up, an exclusive interview with former defense secretary James Mattis on his leadership through three wars and four presidents.

And breaking news in California as the NTSB takes the lead investigating tonight the tragic boat fire. How did dozens of people get trapped below deck with no way out in this ferocious fire?

An exclusive with the lead investigator on this case in a moment.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With such a hopeless, helpless feeling to watch that boat burn.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roger. Can you get back on board and unlock the -- unlock the doors so they can get off?

Roger. You don't have any firefighting gear at all, no fire extinguishers or anything?

Roger. Is this the captain of the Conception?

Roger. Was that all the crew that jumped off? Is the vessel fully engulfed right now?

Roger. And there's no escape hatch for any of the people on board?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Just haunting recording. All you can hear are the questions. You can't hear the answers from the captain. An emergency Coast Guard dispatcher responding to the crew of that doomed California dive boat. This photo shows the man believed to be the captain as he was with rescuers.

And tonight we are told that they're wrapping up the search. At this point, they don't believe there are any more survivors. 34 people are presumed dead. In a moment, I will speak exclusively with the lead investigator for NTSB on this case. But first Fox News Correspondent William La Jeunesse updating us live in Santa Barbara tonight. Good evening, William.

WILLIAM LA JEUNESSE, CORRESPONDENT: Well, Martha, there is still a lot we don't know. How did the fire start? Why did it spread so quickly? Was toxicology done on the crew? And did they use any of those fire extinguishers the Coast Guard says was aboard before abandoning ship?

Well, so they have some new video for you from the Coast Guard. This is from a helicopter early the morning of the fire. This was shot around 6:50 in the morning three hours after that mayday call. Also coming up an interview with a couple that was asleep anchored nearby when the crew began banging on their boat looking for help.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fully engulfed. From bow to stern, I mean, in plane probably 30 feet high, it was totally gone. I mean, you know -- and I was like, my gosh, what do we do?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was such a hopeless, helpless feeling to watch that boat burn.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LA JEUNESSE: So the search for survivors is over. The dive teams were out today in low visibility hoping to recover an additional nine victims from that boat which is now upside down and unstable and I said 65 feet of water on the ocean floor.

Now, inside the ship, it was launched 1981. You can see the bunkhouse stacked three high about four feet wide. Many of those are double bunks. Well, today the sheriff said that all those who are sleeping below deck in the bunkhouse likely died there trapped by flames.

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BILL BROWN, SHERIFF, SANTA BARBARA COUNTY, CALIFORNIA: Is it appearing as though the people who are below deck worked were trapped and unable to exit the vessel and that does appear to be exactly what happened, that the -- there was a stairwell to get down the main entryway up and down and there was an escape hatch, and it would appear as though both of those were blocked by fire.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LA JEUNESSE: So there was memorial here basically right next to where the conception is typically docked, 34 candles. We spoke to a woman who lost her 26-year-old sister who is on the boat, the only crew member not to make it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Keeping me strong was the fact that I knew she left this world doing something that she loved. And she had a great heart, she had a great soul. She loved helping animals. She loved helping the wildlife. She loved doing all this amazing stuff and I'm so proud of her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LA JEUNESSE: So the sheriff has brought in state experts to conduct rapid DNA tests because many of the bodies are frankly unidentifiable because they are burned so badly. Those were used in last year's wildfire, Martha.

Also as you are -- you mentioned, NTSB is here. Some are wondering whether or not their observations or their conclusions will lead to any kind of design or operational changes in these overnight dive boats. Back to you.

MACCALLUM: Good question. William, thank you very much. Joining me now, Jennifer Homendy of the National Transportation Safety Board. Jennifer, thank you very much for being here tonight. What can you tell us about the investigation and where it stands right now?

JENNIFER HOMENDY, MEMBER, NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD: Well, thus far, this is our first day on the accident scene. We arrived at 10:00 a.m. Pacific Daylight Time and we immediately had a briefing, a very thorough briefing with the Coast Guard and begin to get a lay of the land and really start thinking about our investigative protocols.

Tonight, we'll have an organizational briefing and designate parties to the investigation. These are people that will provide technical expertise and to help us conduct our safety investigation. We will also begin to form investigative groups to start to drill down on the issues.

MACCALLUM: So I understand that you're going to use a sister vessel -- and I want to put up on the screen a picture of the bunk area of this boat where you know, it's just -- it's horrific to even think about these poor people in this -- these are very tight quarters to their -- two or three high in some places in this boat.

There's a lot of discussion about why they couldn't get out and the exits on this boat. Have you been able to look at the layout, and we've got a layout picture as well, and give any thought to how it could be constructed so that both ends would be impassable?

HOMENDY: I have seen a layout on paper and we've also seen a safety briefing video. So we were able to generally see the layout of the vessel. But as you stated, tomorrow we plan to go to the sister vessels so we can really begin to see the almost identical or near-identical structure to understand where everything was at the time.

MACCALLUM: Any idea why the crew -- were they all on top? I mean, you know, how did they survive? And I know that one crew member sadly did not survive, but any thoughts on that at this stage of the game?

HOMENDY: The crew tends to sleep above deck or on the deck. And we believe that was the situation in this case with the possible exception of the one crew member.

MACCALLUM: Have you been able to interview anyone on the crew yet and ask you know, where their alarms going off? When were they first aware that there was a problem?

HOMENDY: They have been cooperating with investigators and certainly with the Coast Guard. We have put together a list of witnesses and interested persons that we would be -- we will conduct interviews with. Those include the crew and others over the next coming days. So that's something that is still yet to come.

MACCALLUM: And before I let you go, I know that you have the -- I'm sure very difficult job of talking to some of these families. What are some of the questions -- what was on their mind other than obviously their immense grief?

HOMENDY: Well, I mean, the only thing that is likely on the family's mind is the loss of their loved one. And our hearts certainly go out to those families that lost loved ones. This was a terrible tragedies. I cannot imagine what they're going through at this time. And you know, they're in our thoughts certainly now and in the coming days and months.

MACCALLUM: Absolutely. Jennifer, lastly, there was a report that there were five members of one family. Can you confirm that?

HOMENDY: I can't confirm that at this time. That is something for local officials to confirm.

MACCALLUM: All right, Jennifer Homendy, good luck in your investigation. And you know, obviously, just a horrific tragedy, and we think about all those families tonight as you continue your work. Thank you, Jennifer. Good to have you here tonight.

HOMENDY: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: So coming up next, our exclusive interview with former Defense Secretary James Mattis on war, presidents, and leadership live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: So in the Trump years, it's practically unheard of for a nominee to glide through confirmation with a 98 to one vote, but that was the case for James Mattis, the four-star general and former CENTCOM commander appointed Secretary of Defense.

A marine for more than 40 years, he led our forces in Iraq twice and in Afghanistan serving four presidents from both political parties. Two of those presidents Trump and Obama would ultimately relieve Mattis of his duties due to differences over policy.

But Mattis shares his deepest bond with the men and women of our armed forces shown clearly in moments like this.

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JAMES MATTIS, FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: You're a great example for our country right now. It's got some problems. You know it and I know it. It's got problems and we won't -- we don't have in military. And you just -- you just hold the line my fine young soldiers, sailors, airmen, marine.

You just hold the line until our country gets back to understand and respect each other. And I came back to serve alongside young people like you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: You hear that right. And his new book is Call Sign Chaos: Learning to Lead and it is out today. Joining me now former Secretary of Defense General Jim Mattis. Great to have you with us, general.

MATTIS: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: Thank you very much for being here. I witnessed when I was at the Navy SEAL Foundation dinner last March I believe, just the amazing outpouring of love and affection for you when you walked onto that stage. So how did you create that trust in that relationship over your career and that is so much of what you write about in this book?

MATTIS: You are right, Martha. I would just point out that trust is the coin of the realm for any leader. With trust you can do just about anything. Without it you can't do anything.

So, what you do is you start out by getting to know your people. You start at direct leadership where you are right alongside them. I'm a second lieutenant 21 years old with 40 sailors and marines. You keep that same sort of connection with them. Understanding them and working with them all the way up through commander, in my case, a quarter million troops.

Of course, you have to change your style. You have to move to executive leadership. You have to convey a sense of ownership to them so they feel like they own the mission. You're just -- you're just constantly working on their spirits.

MACCALLUM: You talk about when you have that training and that trust as a leader you let them go. You want them to be aggressive. You promoted people who were aggressive and who took initiative, right?

MATTIS: Any organization gets their behavioral rewards and we needed initiative and aggressiveness the two you just highlighted. So, you reward that as you move up in rank you try to never lose the touch with those who have those qualities so that you are always rewarding.

MACCALLUM: You talked about the problems that the country has that the military does not have. What were you referring to?

MATTIS: Well, in any organization, it can be a football team, it can be a news studio, it can be a military force to business group, you have to have a sense of unity. You have to be transparent with one another. You have to be open with one another. And you have to be unified in what you are doing.

Transparency and alignment, you can call it. And I think that right now the military knows it is protecting this wonderful great big experiment that you and I call America. And that mission comes foremost and they don't let anything get in the way of it.

The men and women work together. All races, all creeds, all we care about is one thing. When the chips are down you come to my aid. And as long as everyone says I'm signed on to that, and it's a keen.

MACCALLUM: So I know that you became a bit disheartened over the course of your time in Washington with the fact that it didn't work that way as you referred to in that video. Let's go back to 2013. You are CENTCOM commander overseeing the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. President Obama was determined to end that war. Vice President Joe Biden came to see you in Baghdad, to talk to you about this over dinner, what happened?

MATTIS: Well, the challenge that political leaders run on ideas of positive things, aspirations for everybody. And the military that protects the country, has to deal with pretty grim realities. And we bring those grim realities and human aspiration together and there is tension there.

In this case you are speaking to Iraq, I think it's actually in 2010 is when this happens but it all plays out over the years you indicated. There was an inclination by that administration to get out of the war. And we may want to end wars. Wars are horrible things. You may even declare it over, but the enemy gets a vote, unfortunately.

And the intelligence community said if we pull out fast, we're going to have to come back in. And so, we anticipated that the enemy could rise again if we pulled out and the military recommended along with the intelligence community that what we do is we bring the troop number down step-by-step as the conditions allowed instead of pulling them all out at once.

MACCALLUM: But that's not what Joe Biden wanted. And when he walked into that dinner you said that he walked -- in the book you say he walk in with his mind already made up and there wasn't anything that you could say from your perspective as the person on the ground in charge that was going to change his mind?

MATTIS: Well, I think that the administration had made up its mind that we were coming out. They believed the enemy had beaten down -- was beaten down far enough that they couldn't rise again despite what the intelligence community was quite adamant about that they would rise again.

So, the administration wanted out and unfortunately, they did later as you know in 2014 have to send the troops back in exactly as the intelligence community forecasted.

MACCALLUM: What did you think of Joe Biden in that moment?

MATTIS: Well, I have got a lot of time for anyone who is willing to come in and serve the country. I mean, it starts off from a position of respect and I had a policy disagreement. It was based on the military assessment that we owed him, I thought.

And when we gave it to him, I still respected in our system of government it's civilian control decision to go to war or not to go to war stay in a war or pull out of a war. It's got to be that way. And I don't think I'm always right either so I'm a little humble about my role in this.

MACCALLUM: You say in the book that you are pretty tough on President Obama in the book. You say that he made catastrophic decisions. You say "It was to be a time when I would witness duty and deceit, courage and cowardice and ultimately strategic frustration."

MATTIS: Well, the strategic frustration was that pulling out like that you could see that ISIS or some organization is all the intelligence community could tell us was that it would be some Al Qaeda associated group. They didn't know which one by specifically, a couple in an event. They knew one would do it.

And so, it is deeply frustrating when you see something like that play out the way we had been warned it would play out. And then we have to send the troops back in. But look at the refugees, the millions of refugees, look at the hundreds of thousands of dead and wounded and there is a sense of both sorrow and frustration.

MACCALLUM: Are you worried, you know, now you have got these talks with the Taliban, it looks like they are coming to some kind of agreement. When you look at that situation and you hear about the plan to pull out most of those troops --

MATTIS: Yes.

MACCALLUM: -- are you concerned it's going to happen all over again, what you warned about in that administration may be happening all over again in this administration.

MATTIS: Well, I can't speak to the specifics of this one because I haven't been in to these negotiations to know the back-channel agreements. I haven't seen it, so I don't want to come here and act like I know what's going on, on this.

But I would say that you and I are going to have to get used to terrorism as an ambient threat. It's going to be around us. And we cannot just wish it away. So, we have to decide how are we going to align ourselves with allies.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

MATTIS: For example, when your hometown here, your adopted hometown was attacked on 9/11 over 3,000 innocent people from 91 countries were killed in this town and Washington --

MACCALLUM: Yes.

MATTIS: -- by basically maniacs who thought they could hurt us and scare us. I was fighting in Afghanistan within a few months. And we were joined there by Canadian forces, the United Kingdom forces, Norwegian and German, Jordanian and Turkish and Australia and New Zealand, and eventually 48 other countries.

They were there not because they were attacked. They were there for one reason, that's because we were attacked and they stood with us. So, in order to deal with this ambient threat, we're going to need all the allies we can get. And that's just reality.

MACCALLUM: You suggested in your letter of resignation that you weren't happy with the way that President Trump was treating the allies and that was one of your main policy differences.

MATTIS: Well, what I put in the letter was that he needed someone more aligned with his view because I was in a position at that point where I was not carrying forward his intent and I believe when you work for a boss you work for the boss.

And when I was asked to do the job, I come from a background where when the president, whether it's Republican or Democrat asks you to do something, you just roll up your sleeves and go to work.

So, when there came a point that I thought I was no longer part of the solution under the way he wanted to operate, then I put it in the letter, publicly, and the president was always very straightforward with me. I was straightforward with him and we parted ways, yes.

MACCALLUM: I got to go and we're going to come back after the break. But just quickly, though, you know, there was discussion that there was sort of an agreement between you and John Kelly and H.R. McMaster that, you know, together you were going to stick with it. Even if it was difficult in the administration because of your duty to the country.

MATTIS: Well, you always have to stick with it to your duty. Now, there comes a point where if you don't think you are contributory to success, then it has to be reconsidered.

MACCALLUM: Did the three of have you an agreement like that?

MATTIS: No. No. We served according to probably a credo of the U.S. military because we had been brought up in it. And I think all three of us carried out our duty to the best of our ability.

MACCALLUM: More with General Mattis after this. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: Back now with former Secretary of Defense, James Mattis.

A little bit of news breaking just a little while ago, general. The secretary of defense ask for is notifying congressional leaders that the Pentagon is going to move $3.6 billion from military construction projects to build a 150 miles of President Trump's wall. What do you think about that?

MATTIS: I'm not -- I don't comment on the current -- the current policies. I don't think someone should get out of office and then start talking from the outside what I refer to as the cheap seats.

I will say that it's a very political issue and I think that working with Congress in order to find a way to address this is the right thing to do. I just hope we can find a solution that gains support in the country.

MACCALLUM: Understood. You know, you talk about domestic tribalism being one of the biggest threats that America faces right now. A lot of people think that comes from President Trump and, you know, do you think that? If not, where do you think it's coming from.

MATTIS: I think this is a problem that's been growing for many years. I understand that when you go into an election you say I'm smart and you are dumb or I've got the better idea and yours are no good. Elections are raucous, they are fights in this sort of thing.

But when the election was over in the past, I think we were more inclined to work together then and fix the problems in the country. Today we seem to be in a constant divide and conquer mode. So, it goes back, this is not about one man. It's not about one administration, it's not about one party. This goes back a while.

And the majority of Americans are going to have to decide the person they disagree with might actually be right once in a while and start listening to each other.

George Washington put it this way. He said you listen, you learn from other people, you help them and then you lead. He had a very monotonous but very pragmatic way of going about listen, learn, help and lead. I think we need to get back to the father of our countries.

MACCALLUM: I think when it comes to reading you do a lot of reading. You have a 7,000-volume library. You have read about 90 percent of them. And you got a question from a colleague at one point saying, you know, you keep telling everyone that they have to read all these books as sort of, you know, the preliminary before they go into these missions.

But they don't have time to read. And you said by reading you learn through others, other experiences generally a better way to do businesses especially in our line of work when the consequences of incompetence are so final for young men.

MATTIS: Yes. The Marine Corps assigned you a reading list when you first come in the Marine Corps. And then when you get promoted, Martha, they give you a new list each time. You know, you finally get all the books done when you are a captain, they promote you to major you got start over. Even generals by the way get a new list of books they have to read.

And the Marine Corps is not there listen to you whine about your mid-life crisis. You read the books or else. They are not into a real vote count on it where you think that you can say no I'm not going to do it.

So, you've got to read, because if you don't read, I don't think you can lead effectively because you are learning and your troops are learning always at your mistakes. You are learning what you read in the books say I'm not going to do that one. I'm going to do something else.

MACCALLUM: Because you are learning from the history of all these people who left this road map for you --

MATTIS: Precisely.

MACCALLUM: -- through these books. What are you reading right now?

MATTIS: Right now, I'm reading a poetry book, actually. About a northwest poet traveling light.

MACCALLUM: A lot of people want you to run for president. What do you say to that?

MATTIS: No. I think we have a lot of great people in America I think that 40 odd years of serving the country in the military and in the defense establishment I'm eager to see the fresh ideas on people who handle a much broader array of issues than I have.

MACCALLUM: So that's a no?

MATTIS: Well, that's a no.

MACCALLUM: A lot of hesitation.

MATTIS: No, there is not a hesitation. I'm just trying to think how to say no even stronger.

MACCALLUM: General Mattis, thank you very much. Good to have you with us.

MATTIS: You're welcome.

MACCALLUM: Great to -- great book, great read. I recommend everybody to take a look. Thank you very much, sir.

MATTIS: Thank you very much.

MACCALLUM: Good to see you. Thank you for your service.

MATTIS: Yes.

MACCALLUM: So, when we come back, a story you will not hear anywhere else about what's really happening on the streets of Chicago and why the police cannot seem to get the upper hand. What's standing in their way next?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: A lot of pressure on Capitol Hill to do something to make it tougher for crazed shooters to kill innocent people in America. But Heather Mac Donald of the Manhattan Institute says there is one thing we can do right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEATHER MAC DONALD, FELLOW, MANHATTAN INSTITUTE: Unlike trying to find the needle in the haystack of these mass shooters who are infinitesimal of the population in this country we can predict with a good degree of accuracy who is going to be involved in the next drive buy shooting in an inner city, both the victim and the perpetrator.

If the criminal justice system, if judges would get these people off the street and if we could allow our police to go back to proactive policing, we could cut gun violence in this country by a massive amount.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: So, one city desperate to end the killing Chicago where seven people were murdered and 34 others shot over Labor Day weekend. One of the victims was this 15-year-old boy who was on his way off to high school or should have been this week.

Retired Chicago Police Sergeant Peter Koconis used to patrol these streets and he joins me now. Peter, thank you very much for being here tonight. You know, so you heard what Heather Mac Donald had to say. You have to have, you know, stronger ability to police and also to get people off the streets and in many cases, get these gang members to stay there longer, right?

PETER KOCONIS, RETIRED CHICAGO POLICE SERGEANT: Yes. I agree with that woman's statement. I mean it incapsulates everything right there. Take the handcuffs off the police and put them on the bad guys.

MACCALLUM: So, in terms of what she said about how you know who -- it's easier to figure out who are going to be involved in these shootings, the victims and the shooters than it is trying to track down these awful people who are doing these mass shootings. Do you agree with that? What does that mean?

KOCONIS: I mean, the city paid Yale University to do a study. And in Inglewood they said nine percent of that community is 600 times more likely to be the victim of or the shooter in a violent crime.

So, when you stop to think about this policemen, old time policemen, guys to train me when I was a young kid. You know, the first body you see they look and say this is horrible. And the guy said, this was yesterday's shooter, and today's shooter is tomorrow's victim.

And the city had a policy where they would go out and interview and talk to these people that we identify as gang leaders and violent crime offenders and warn them that we are going to be looking for them and looking to hit them for these crimes. And yet, our state's attorney just turns wrong and if you are arrested with a gun, she lets you out on a bond or no bond.

MACCALLUM: Why? I mean, why has the bar been lowered so much and why do have you this constant recycling of people, you know, leaving these jail facilities and being sent back out on the street to do the same thing to somebody else or as you say to become the victim?

KOCONIS: You know, you have good-hard working police officers here that are handcuffed because they don't -- they are not allowed to stop and frisk and they are not allowed to do the police work the way we used to do it. And if something looked suspicious you would stop and you would look.

Now the ACLU and they have ISR reports. I mean, you are bogged down with computer work and paperwork and getting permission from supervisors. It's beyond comprehension for the policeman. And what's sad is the gang bangers they realize that the probability of them getting stopped in a car or walking on the street are far greater than it was five years ago so they will go -- they will resort to carrying their guns as much as they want.

And then, you know, an example on a Friday. A kid does a carjacking with a gun. They let them out on an I bond which means that he has to post nothing and he just promises I will go back to court.

MACCALLUM: Why?

(CROSSTALK)

KOCONIS: Two days later on Sunday --

MACCALLUM: Why are they letting them out? I got 10 seconds, why are they letting them out?

KOCONIS: Because Kim Foxx has got an idea that you shouldn't hold these kids in jail but, yet, they completely repeat that same crime two days later and then she holds them.

MACCALLUM: All right. We got to leave it there. Peter Koconis, thank you very much. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: That is “The Story” of Tuesday, September 3rd, 2019. But as always, “The Story” goes on. So, we will see you back here tomorrow night at seven. We look forward to it.

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