FBI director Wray launches internal review of Flynn probe

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FBI director Wray launches internal review of Flynn probe

This is a rush transcript from "The Story with Martha MacCallum," May 22, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Thank you, Bret. Thank you, Bret. One day closer indeed, one week closer, one workweek closer. Good to see you. So tonight, FBI Director Wray has ordered an internal review now at the FBI of what happened to General Michael Flynn for the time he joined the Trump campaign to the day that he was fired from the White House, just a few short weeks after inauguration.

Trying to figure out who were the heroes and who were the villains. It has been hard to tell at different points in the progression of this story. Although he has pledged reform at the FBI before and perhaps the recent revelations have no doubt turned up the heat on the Director of the FBI. The American people do need to know beyond a doubt that they can trust the agency to be ethical in their practices and to obey the rule of law.

It appears that some individuals may have used those powerful positions there to perpetuate an investigation that may have had no reason to exist in the first place or was not predicated as they say at the FBI. Remember this moment of shock.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think spying did occur.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, let me--

BARR: The question is whether it was predicated, adequately predicated. And I'm not suggesting it wasn't adequately predicated, but I need to explore that  (END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Americans on all sides should want to know what happened here. It's a complicated story. And even those of us who have followed it from the beginning can benefit from today's story by Eli Lake titled The Railroading of Michael Flynn.

He writes about how Susan Rice in her book says how different Mike Flynn was from the man that she saw on the stage at Trump rallies shouting lock her up about Hillary Clinton. How the former Head of the Defense Intelligence Agency was respectful, subdued when they had their transition meetings and eager for her advice. Then on the last day of the transition rather than a handshake he went in for a hug.

Little did he know. At that time that he was suspected of being a Russian agent. And although the FBI had found no evidence the investigation was now in its fifth month. Strategic leaks about the Flynn, ordeal kept the investigation burners on and ultimately led to his firing at the White House.

Also, today in new developments, Acting Director of National Intelligence Rick Grenell says he is now in the process of declassifying exactly what was said on those phone calls between Flynn and Kislyak, which we have never seen. And all sides now are calling for.

So, in moments, we'll talk to Trey Gowdy who was the House Oversight Committee Chairman. When many of these issues were being probed by Congress. But we begin with Bloomberg Columnist Eli Lake.  Eli, a great story today, very interesting, cogent read on what happened to Michael Flynn. Having dug into it to this extent, why do you surmise in the end that they went after Flynn that they felt that he was sort of a vulnerable person or pegged to sort of take out of the Jenga tower of this campaign?

ELI LAKE, BLOOMBERG COLUMNIST: Well, some have speculated that Mike Flynn was the only person in Trump's inner circle that would have the experience in the intelligence community to know about the FBI's investigation into Trump-Russia collusion and to be able to sort of get to the bottom of it, and would have the authority in his position as National Security Adviser to do just that.

But I also think that there was a sense that Donald Trump as well as Michael Flynn were too willing to pursue a reset if you will with Russia, after Russia's interference in the 2016 election. And while you know by the time there was the inauguration of President Trump, there was no evidence. And as Mueller would never indict anybody for a conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Russia, it was something that was being investigated and they hadn't turned up anything yet.

But I think that that was also an element of it, which is that they really did not want to see an effort by the - in the new Trump administration to try to have a better relationship with Russia in the same way by the way that the Obama administration in 2009 pursued a reset of the relationship with Russia after the Russians had invaded the Republic of Georgia in 2008. So, I think that some of it was just driven by the idea that how could anybody think that a relationship with Russia would be a good thing.

And I have to say as somebody who's hawkish on Russia, I agree with that. But that's not the role in any possible sense of the FBI to try to go after incoming administration officials because they disagree with their foreign policy preferences that we adjudicate that through elections and congressional oversight, not through the awesome powers of the FBI.

MACCALLUM: There's irony in that too, when you think back to the moment where Mitt Romney said he thought Russia was the biggest problem and President Obama said, you know, the ADs called, and they want their foreign policy back. But to stick to what's going on in this Michael Flynn case, one of the things, I think a lot of Americans, when they look at this, they say, what did he lie about exactly? And you sort of break it down and then you talk about how they - when the FBI went in, they didn't really try to unravel that lie specifically.  LAKE: Well, the concern was that the Acting Attorney General, who was the Deputy Attorney General, Sally Yates, testified that she could not figure out in the month of January whether the FBI was pursuing a criminal investigation or a counterintelligence investigation. It seems that the reasons for keeping it open shifted. You know, when she'd get different answers from the former Director, James Comey.

And what ultimately James Comey said was that when he saw an interview in the transition from Vice President-elect Mike Pence, where he presumed that he had lied and that Flynn had lied to him about his phone conversation with the Russian Ambassador, that he needed to send his agents into find out what had happened. But what we know from looking at the transcripts or I shouldn't say transcripts, the notes of that interview is that at no point did the agents ask Flynn about what he had told Pence about his phone call.

So, you know, that seems like a very disingenuous answer. And you have to remember that, you know, the one thing that we know about what Mike Flynn and Kislyak talked about in regard to sanctions, according to the plea that Mike Flynn made at the end of December 2017. And then he has since revoked an earlier this year. Is that he urged him not to escalate after the Obama administration expelled 35 Russian spies and imposed fairly minor sanctions on their intelligence services.

So, asking an adversary not to escalate in response to an outgoing administration's actions as the motion to dismiss the case filed earlier this month said, is evidence that Flynn was advancing U.S. interests, not evidence that he was winning or unwitting Russian asset. And so, to keep it open on those grounds after they had - we're ready to close the case. It's kind of inexplicable.  MACCALLUM: Yes. You write about the PNC (ph) memo and a lot of really interesting details in this piece that dig in on The Railroading of Michael Flynn, as your piece is called. Eli, thank you. Good to have you here tonight.

LAKE: Thank you so much.

MACCALLUM: Trey Gowdy, former House Oversight Committee Chair and Fox News Contributor joins me now. Trey, good to see you tonight. I want to start with your thoughts on Christopher Wray and why you think he has decided to open an internal inquiry into what went down here.  TREY GOWDY, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Martha, I wish I knew. I mean, it's been four years. What the hell have they been doing? I mean, this happened in 2016 and 2017. So, I mean, it's not like he just learned of the misconduct. We just learned of it. Or some of your viewers just learned of it. He's known about it since the day he became the FBI Director. So why now? In May of 20/20, you are announcing a look back at misconduct in 2016 and 2017, I don't know what's next. I mean, the Lindbergh baby kidnapping, John Wilkes Booth. I mean, I don't know what else he's going to look at. That happened a long time ago. The time for investigating misconduct is much more contemporaneous than four years.  MACCALLUM: Yes, I mean, you make a great point. Everything that has been revealed with the declassification of these memos and information, you know, obviously was known to the FBI, before we all found out about it and the rest of the country. And Christopher Wray did say when he came in that he wanted to be a reformer, that he was going to look into all of this stuff. But obviously, it's just the public display of these things. I would imagine that has nudged to this to perhaps a different level at the FBI now.

One of the things that I think it's interesting that you're hearing from a call on all sides, from General Flynn's lawyer to the other side of the fence, from the FBI, everybody wants this Kislyak-Flynn phone call transcript released so that everybody can see it. I don't know what's taken so long. Do you think we're going to actually get to look at it of the simple calls?  GOWDY: I think that you will look at the ones that they actually captured. I think there were multiple calls and some of the transcripts didn't come through. At least that was the explanation we were given. And I think when the transcripts are released, you're going to be bored out of your mind and you're going to wonder, this is criminal. This is enough to target a three- star general. This conversation.

The ones that are available, I have read. I think the FBI told us, they didn't capture all the calls, some of them they missed. I don't know what was on those, but you will be bored out of your mind. Martha.  MACCALLUM: Looks like it from what we're seeing reported about them, but I think it's interesting that both sides really want them out. So, hopefully we'll all get a look at them. I know you've seen what you've seen so far on those. Trey, thank you very much. Trey Gowdy.

GOWDY: Yes, ma'am. Happy Memorial Day.

MACCALLUM: Good to see you.

GOWDY: Yes, ma'am.

MACCALLUM: To you as well, sir. Thank you. Coming up next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The governors need to do the right thing and allow these very important, essential places of faith to open right now for this weekend.  (END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: While many religious leaders are relieved by that announcement, some not so much. Coming up next, Father Jim Martin will join me, followed by Counselor to the President Kellyanne Conway here to respond.  (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Some governors have deemed a liquor stores and abortion clinics as essential but have left out churches and other houses of worship. It's not right. So, I'm correcting this injustice and calling houses of worship essential. In America, we need more prayer, not less.  (END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: President Trump sending a message today that America's churches should be open again, declaring houses of worship essential and even saying that he would override the governors who don't adhere to his call to reopen them now. So, we will see where that goes and push back on that.

Shortly after the President's announcement, the CDC issued new guidelines for reopening communities of faith, calling for masks, social distancing, cleaning and taking steps to minimize the sharing of worship materials, all of which makes a lot of sense for any of these churches that are about to open.

Joining me now, Father James Martin, a Jesuit priest, and Editor-at-Large of America Media. Father Jim, good to see you. Thank you very much for being here tonight. Tell me how you feel about the encouragement to reopen churches and places of faith.  FATHER JAMES MARTIN, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, AMERICA MEDIA: Well, I think the President's right in the sense that churches are essential, and the desire to go to church and to go to synagogue or a mosque is a holy desire. But it's not just about your desire. It's about protecting other people. And I think any encouragement, you know, at the federal, state, or local level to open churches before it's safe for everyone is just going to lead to more infections and unfortunately, more deaths. And so, I think we need to listen to public health officials and epidemiologists first.  MACCALLUM: Well, there obviously there's a lot of division on that. There are people who believe that it is right to reopen the country and to get people out there. I'm just like - what is your definition of safe? Does that mean when there's a vaccine? So that can be a long time.  MARTIN: We listen to public health officials. Right. We listen to epidemiologists and certainly, you know, there were two churches, one in Minnesota and one in Texas, Catholic churches that opened up too early, a few weeks ago. And some of the priests were sick and some of the parishioners are sick now, too. And so, I think, again, we have to listen to the experts, not look at this as a political issue.  MACCALLUM: Well, you know, at this point, we have so many more statistics than we had before. And we know that 99.8 percent of people who do contract the virus and of course, we don't want anybody to get it. But 99.8 percent of them recover and get better. So, at some point, do we have to learn to live with the virus and to safely, you know, to go back to church, socially distant with our masks on just the same way we go to the grocery store?  MARTIN: Yes, at some point we do. But I'm not sure at that point is now or not. The question is, you know, we have still had how many tens of thousands of people who are sick. And remember, you know, when you're talking about churches, you're talking about frequently the elderly and the most vulnerable. And so why put anyone at risk? Why rush this at all?  MACCALLUM: I think everyone has suggested that anybody who's vulnerable in that age group should absolutely continue to stay home. And that's why you're still going to have all of the wonderful, TV masses that we've all been able to see from home.

But just one last question for you, because one of the doctors that I spoke to from Stanford believes that it's more dangerous to stay in lockdown because his fear that people need to be together, they need to go to church, they need to go to school, and that if you don't, it leads to A, people not going to their doctors when they need to. And B, people suffering from depression and all of these other things that are side effects of staying home.  MARTIN: Well, those side effects for the individual need to be measured against the chance that you're going to infect someone because you're asymptomatic. So, you may be sad and missing people. But is that worth, if you're asymptomatic, going in and shaking someone's hand or sharing the communion cup and getting someone sick and having them die? So, that's the calculus.  MACCALLUM: Well, OK. I mean, I think the argument is that when you do the things that we're asked to do and all these other public places that we're starting to go to again, wear your masks, social distance, cleaning, as you saw in the guidelines, that you do cut that down dramatically.

But - so, I'm going to follow you and see when you feel comfortable. And obviously, we all look forward to getting back to mass. And we'll see when things start to open up. Thank you. Father Martin. It's always good to have your input.

MARTIN: My pleasure.

MACCALLUM: So, joining me now, Kellyanne Conway, Counselor to the President. Kellyanne, good to have you here as well this evening. So, you hear, Father Martin, he's saying, don't risk other people's lives. It's not worth it. It's not OK for those who may be asymptomatic to be out in places. What do you say?  KELLYANNE CONWAY, COUNSELOR TO THE PRESIDENT: Well, hopefully, Father Martin and others are actually reading the guidelines. He told you we should be listening to the epidemiologist. The CDC is the Centers for Disease Control. These are their guidelines. They are the agency in our nation, Martha, charged with telling us about infectious diseases and other health crises. So, these are the CDC guidelines that were put forth today. This wasn't issued by the Trump-Pence campaign.

So, I want to correct the record there. We worked very closely with Dr. Redfield and his team. Dr. Birx was on - was looking at this, members of the task force for quite a while. And I also would say to people, please read these guidelines, because so much of it repeats what we already know about social distancing, wearing masks, avoiding the contact that he just gave his examples.

Nobody is suggesting people are going to shake or hug for the sign of peace or share the same ritual book or the communion cup. But what you said is very important and what the CDC says at the beginning of its guidelines is significant. They're saying that a faith is essential to millions of Americans and faith gatherings are part of that. You know, Martha pre- pandemic, we had in this country 120,000 deaths a year from drug overdoses and suicides.  And many experts predict that that could be exacerbated and get worse because people are not availing themselves of socialization. Look at what we're doing to so many of our kids. They don't have the academic or social structural report. Some of them - there's been an increase in child abuse, spousal abuse, drug abuse, mental health problems in some places because of the isolation and the fear and the lack of just being around other people.

Not every home is a safe one. And not everybody can withstand the anguish of not being able to return to work or places of worship to feed their families or feed their souls. The President is something--

MACCALLUM: These are very difficult times.

CONWAY: That he said, he's correcting an injustice. Yes, he said, I'm sorry, there is a delay here, Martha. He's saying that he's correcting an injustice. That was an important phrase because we haven't been treating every institution the same. And those, you know, protected activity of--

MACCALLUM: We talked about that.

CONWAY: Right to worship deserves heightened scrutiny, and I think a special solicitude when you're examining what's right and what's wrong--

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: At the grocery store and liquor store.

MACCALLUM: OK.

CONWAY: Go ahead.

MACCALLUM: So, we were just looking at pictures of churches that are socially distant and people are there with their masks on. And as I said earlier, it seems like if you can go to the grocery store, you should be able to do that in a responsible way and that people who are in the difficult age zone should stay home for a while longer.

With regard to the handling of all of this, this is a new ABC News poll. And this one is it lines up with other polls that we've seen as well about how the President is handling the COVID-19 crisis. 60 percent disapprove. 39 percent approve. And like I said, you know, you're a pollster by profession. And we've seen a number of polls that have him underwater on this mark.  CONWAY: Well, I don't think anybody likes dealing with a global pandemic. And the President himself has said that the loss of life is so devastating to each and every one of us that one precious life lost is one too many.

Having said that, let's review what the President has done. Maybe the media don't cover it fairly and completely in many times. But look at what he has done. Things only a President can do. We've repatriated 93,000 Americans who were abroad. We're dealing with the other G7 leaders to figure out how to deal with a global pandemic together,

He has worked across the aisle with Democratic governors who publicly and really privately have thank this administration for surging the supplies of ventilators and masks and PPE. Every state has received billions of dollars in direct funding, trillions of dollars have gone to distressed industries and individuals. So, there's a whole list of things that only a President can do.

The Defense Production Act really getting the whole private sector together. So, he's done that day-by-day working around the clock. And I think people will see the fruits of that eventually. And I think many people see it now. These polls all over the place.

MACCALLUM: We will see what happens. I think that - yes, I'm sorry. There is a delay, but I just have to cut in.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Happen in November.

CONWAY: Right.

MACCALLUM: And you know, everyone's going to judge for themselves having think the President handled this. And in the end, they will have to decide how they feel about it in terms of leadership. And that'll be up to the American people. And we'll see--

CONWAY: Sure. Truth and the facts out there and all the money. And this has been a global pandemic.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

CONWAY: That came unanticipated. And he is dealing with it every single day. And now we are also looking at the dual medical and financial crises. And he will reduce the economy that he started so beautifully.

MACCALLUM: All right. We'll be watching. Kellyanne, thank you very much. Kellyanne Conway from The White House.  So, it's a big story today. Joe Biden had to apologize tonight after suggesting that black voters who support President Trump isn't black is what he said. What he is saying now? Next.  (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: If you have a problem figuring out whether you're for Mayor Trump then you ain't black?  (END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: Joe Biden apologizing tonight for an interview that aired this morning with Charlamagne tha God, the nationally syndicated radio host of the popular show, The Breakfast Club. Here is a piece of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD, HOST, "THE BREAKFAST CLUB": You've got to come see us when you come to New York, V.P. Biden.

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I will.

THA GOD: Because it's a long way until November and we've got more questions.

BIDEN: You got more questions. But I'm telling you, if you have a problem figuring out whether you are for me or Trump, then you are not black.

THA GOD: It has nothing to do with Trump. It has to do with the fact I want something for my community. I would love to see you --

(CROSSTALK)

BIDEN: Take a look at my record, man. I extended the voting rights 25 years. I have a record that is second-to-none. The NAACP has endorsed me every time I've run. The world -- I mean, come on. Take a look at the record.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: The former V.P. has now apologized for what he called a wise guy comment. Here is that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: I shouldn't have been so cavalier in responding to what I thought was -- anyway, it was, I don't take it for granted at all, and no one, no one should have to vote for any party based on their race or religion or background.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Joining me now, Richard Fowler, national syndicated radio talk show host, and Fox News contributor. Richard, good to have you here tonight. Thanks for being here.

RICHARD FOWLER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Good to be with you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: I just want to play one other clip from this interview that I thought was an interesting moment, as well, and then I will get your reaction to both.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks so much. That's really our time. I apologize.

BIDEN: You can't do that black media.

THA GOD: I got --

(CROSSTALK)

BIDEN: You're not going to do that to white media and black media because my wife has to go on at six o'clock.

THA GOD: OK.

BIDEN: I'm in trouble.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: All right. So, I mean, yes, that was one of his staffers, kind of chiming in, we've got to go, we've got to go. Not a great day.

FOWLER: Not a great day for the vice president, and I think the vice president was right to apologize for that comment, right, because it was off-color. And let's be real, Martha, as a black gay man in America, only I can define my blackness.

But I think elections are about contrast, and I think that's the most important folks -- the things that folks at home to remember. It's one candidate versus the other, and Joe Biden has been very clear that he thinks that talking to black owned and operated media outlets is important.

On the other hand, the president of the United States has told African Americans you have nothing to lose, and with this coronavirus pandemic with over 95,000 Americans that have been dead, a good proportion of being African American, it seems as though that African Americans now have everything to lose, including their life.

MACCALLUM: Well, I think that's a very important point and I think that is good to be a big part of this election process, but just in terms of the candidates, the Democrat candidate and the person who was chosen out of all of those people that we watched on that stage, let's take a little walk down the memory lane, because this is not the first time that we've heard this kind of thing from Joe Biden.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Poor kids are just as bright and talented as white kids. Wealthy kids.

(APPLAUSE)

BIDEN: Black kids, Asian kids.

That kid wearing a hoodie may very well be the next poet Laureate, and not a gangbanger.

We got the first, sort of, mainstream African American who is articulate and bright and clean, a nice-looking guy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: You know, is this the best representative for the Democratic Party, Richard?

FOWLER: Well, right now in this election, we have to remember that for eight years, Joe Biden served under the leadership of Barack Obama, an African American man and the first African American president. There is nobody that cares more than the black -- more for the black community than Joe Biden does, and it's in his record. He supported the Voting Rights Act, he pushed forward toward showing that there is proper funding for our schools.

Does he make -- does he trip up on his words? Yes. But the president trips upon his words, quite a bit. I mean, he is telling the American people to take hydroxychloroquine even though every expert says that that's not a good idea, it could cause more harm than good.

So, are we judging the politicians based on whether or not they trip on their words or are we judging them on their actions?

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Well, it's a question --

FOWLER: And I think the American people in this election will judge them on their actions.

MACCALLUM: Look, there is no shortage of people who say, you know, dumb stuff that they have to go back and fix. But, you know, the question, when you look at like what Tim Scott is saying tonight, you know, he's just talking about how problematic this is in terms of treating the black community in a different way and not, you know, sort of, the come around every election time and cater to the community, and not uphold it in a real way over the course of four years.

Before all this happened, it was all about the economy, and I think that was a pretty good argument for President Trump in terms of what he's done. Obviously, now, that's in a different -- that's in different shape, so we'll see what happens.

Richard, thank you. Always good to have you. Nice to see you from your home there.

FOWLER: Good to see you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: All right, we'll pick it up again. Thank you.

A 95-year-old World War II veteran who lost two of his friends at the Battle of Tarawa learns that those heroes' bodies have now been found and returned home after 77 years, the incredible story still ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: So, the latest information tonight as we continue to investigate the devastating death toll inside America's long-term care facilities where more than 41 percent of those who lost their lives with this virus resided, and where 5,800 New Yorkers died.

Chief breaking news correspondent Trace Gallagher has the very latest in this investigation. Hi, Trace.

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Martha.

The New York Health Department citing incomplete data is refusing to release numbers of how many coronavirus patients mandated by the state were sent to New York nursing homes.

So, the Associated Press compiled its own numbers and found an astonishing 4,500 patients were sent back despite overwhelming evidence that senior care facilities were extremely vulnerable.

Nursing home administrator's residents and their families now say the move is inexcusable and possibly criminal. Daniel Arbeeny, who pulled his 88- year-old father out of a home where 50 people had died of COVID-19 told the Associated Press, quoting, "This isn't rocket science, it was the single dumbest decision anyone could make if they wanted to kill people."

Arbeeny's father ended up dying of COVID-19 at home.

But New York Governor Andrew Cuomo who once called nursing homes the, quote, "optimum feeding ground for the virus," now says the directive to send infected patients back in nursing homes did not contribute to the almost 6,000 deaths. Cuomo is also blaming nursing homes for accepting patients and blaming President Trump. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): Anyone who wants to ask why did the state do that with COVID patients in nursing homes, it's because the state followed President Trump's CDC guidance, so they should ask President Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GALLAGHER: And it is true that the CDC did say hospitalized COVID-19 patients could be sent to nursing homes, but added quoting, "preferably, the patient would be placed in a location designated to care for COVID-19 residents."

Many nursing home administrators say they were not equipped but felt obligated and overwhelmed. And it's notable that many states like Louisiana did the opposite of what the CDC recommended, barring hospitals from sending coronavirus patients to nursing homes.

Of course, nobody is saying that COVID-19 patients where the only source of infection, but the society for post-acute and long-term care medicine warned from the beginning that Governor Cuomo's order posed a, quote, "clear and present danger to nursing home residents." Martha?

MACCALLUM: Yes. I don't think the CDC has mandated everything. I think everything has been guidelines for all the states, that's why you had different governors doing different things.

Trace, thank you very much.

So, coming up tonight, Victor Davis Hanson response to a Harvard professor who called the afterlife a malignant delusion and links to a piece suggesting the Evangelical push to reopen America is because they are less concerned with life on earth and more about the hereafter. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: There is no doubt that COVID-19 has created a deeper divide in America between those who want to open and those who say that we are moving too fast, we talked a lot about that here tonight. Many linked that push to reopen to President Trump and the Republican Party, but some say that it runs even deeper.

Columnist Gary Abernathy writes this in the Washington Post, quote, "The coronavirus, Christian fundamentalism is often fatalistic. As far as many Evangelicals are concerned, life passes quickly, suffering is temporary and worrying solves nothing. That's not a view that comports well with long stretches of earthly times spent waiting out business closures or stay-at- home orders."

So that caught the eye of Harvard psychology professor Steven Pinker, who passed that along on Twitter that story and then added his own take above it, belief in an afterlife is a malignant delusion since it devalues actual lives and discourages action that would make them longer, safer, and happier. Exhibit a, what's really behind Republicans wanting a swift reopening? Evangelicals."

OK. It sounds there's a lot to chew on there. Victor Davis Hanson, senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and the author of "The Case for Trump." What's your reaction to that tonight, Victor?

VICTOR DAVIS HANSON, SENIOR FELLOW, HOOVER INSTITUTE: That is an ancient debate that goes all the way back, Martha, to Socrates and St. Augustine, and their counterargument would be, that if you don't believe transcendence, then you don't believe that we have souls, then this is all there is, then maybe you are a slave to your appetites, maybe you're a narcissist, maybe you feel that you have to jam in as much fun and enjoyment as you can because there is nothing -- there is nothing that survives here.

You won't be judged in a different -- in a different world or context of what you did in this world. So that's an ancient debate. But the irony is that the people who are urging a careful return to work are based on -- basing their arguments on science.

Because we know that there's a lot of studies coming out that have questioned the validity that social distancing and mass quarantines will slow down the virus, at least it's debatable.

And more importantly, we're miss -- Professor Pinker, he is drawing on a $40 billion Harvard endowment, his check. Most people don't have that latitude. They had -- they are facing economic destruction.

And so, they make a scientific guess that if you are under 65 and you don't have comorbidity, you have about a 99.7 chance of not dying, and that's a better odd for them than facing a depression. And we got to really change the moral argument. We've had this for too long, we've said, like Professor Pinker has, that if you go out, you are selfish, all you care about is money. And what the red states are saying, no, no, it's just the opposite.

If you don't go out, Professor Pinker is not going to have electricity for his apartment, or sanitation, or food for his plate because people in red states and his own state are picking that risk to produce real wealth that feeds a federal revenue.

And that's, that's the moral case than being in a collective fetal position and not going out and, you know, risking something to create wealth. This can't go on. Printing money and thinking that wealth just appears out of nowhere. If you have an endowment, you're getting interest, that endowment is based on the stock market, which is based on a perception of a solid economy.

And so, I think the people who are going out in places like Florida and Texas are using science. After all, three states, Florida, Texas, and California, a third of the nation's population only have about 7 percent of the deaths from this virus.

And that corridor that Professor Pinker is in, Boston to New York, most of the states, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey, and New York, they account for only 13 percent of the population, they have about 60 -- or over 60 percent of all the deaths.

Now maybe because of weather, or maybe because of population density, or maybe because of unhinged policies like the governor of New Jersey has done, and Governor Cuomo, but whatever the reason is, it's hard science says that you can take a risk in Florida to a much greater degree than you can in Boston, and that's what people are doing.

MACCALLUM: Victor Davis Hanson, always good to see you, sir. Thank you for being here tonight.

HANSON: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: So, as we head into Memorial Day weekend, an incredible story of a World War II marine veteran who never thought that he would live to see the day that the friends he lost in battle were finally returned home.

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TRUMP: Our nation pays a mortal tribute to the extraordinary courage, unflinching loyalty, and unselfish love and a supreme devotion of the American heroes who made the ultimate sacrifice.

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MACCALLUM: As America pays tribute to all those who have given the ultimate sacrifice, we also remember those who never returned home.

Tonight, an incredible story courtesy of History Flight which is an amazing organization that recovers and repatriates missing in action servicemen. They recently identified two World War II marines, Harold Hayden and Mervin Monk Galland. These young men were lost in the Battle of Tarawa, a bloody three-day fight to capture the Japanese held island in which roughly 1,000 marines and sailors lost their lives.

Now the group later received a message of thanks from 95-year-old Wendell Perkins. Reading, quote, "my two close friends have now been accounted for. Thanks to the persistence of you and your dedicated remains recovery team of History Flight. The best for continued successes. Semper fi."

We're honored to have Wendell Perkins joining us now, World War II marine veteran served at Tarawa. He went back there with History Flight six years ago. Wendell, great to have you with us tonight. Tell me what it meant to you when you learned that Harold and Monk were coming home.

WENDELL PERKINS, 95-YEAR-OLD WWII MARINE VETERAN: I thought it was a fantastic way to celebrate Memorial Day, that the families will get to see -- not get to see, but they know that their family members are safe and that they'll now be interred at home where they belong.

MACCALLUM: It's extraordinary that History Flight recovers these bodies that have been 75 years on the island of Tarawa and you served there yourself. And then you got the opportunity to speak recently, I understand with your good friend Harold's brother on the phone, what was that like?

PERKINS: It was a wonderful feeling that you finally get to talk to someone that you had feelings about for years and years and never anyone to express them to.

Now we had in fact, Harold's brother Maureen (Ph) and I have talked every day for the past three or four days that we have been in contact with each other, it's a great feeling.

MACCALLUM: Yes. And when you served on Tarawa, just tell everyone briefly what kind of an experience that was, sir.

PERKINS: It was a living hell. Colonel Lee Alexander wrote a book called "Utmost Savagery" and I think that's adequately named.

MACCALLUM: You said that you didn't expect that the Japanese would be so dug in, you thought it would be a quick battle.

PERKINS: We were told that it would probably take us about five hours to clean everything up because they are going to bombard the island so badly that there wouldn't be anything left living, they certainly underestimated their outcome.

MACCALLUM: What do you -- we are looking at some images of Tarawa right now, what do you remember about the island? And you went back there six years ago.

PERKINS: My most faith. Recent memories in the course of six years ago, and the place is a stinking dump, I wouldn't -- I wouldn't care to go back there again. There is 20,000 people living on that little island, 20,000 plus probably. I don't know, it's --

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MACCALLUM: So, tell me as you think about your friends and you think about Memorial Day this Monday, what's your message to the country?

PERKINS: Be thankful and gracious for the living that it provides us, where it's possible for us to enjoy our freedom and liberties, maybe except for the past couple of months. But under normal circumstances, this is the greatest place in the world to live, I'm glad I'm an American.

MACCALLUM: We are glad you're an American too. Wendell Perkins, thank you so much, sir. More of my conversation with Wendell available on the Untold Story podcast and that will be up on Monday. Have a great weekend. Remember Memorial Day and all those who served.

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