This is a rush transcript from "The Five," May 10, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

DANA PERINO, FOX NEWS HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino along with Greg Gutfeld, Juan Williams, Katie Pavlich and Jesse Watters. It's five o'clock in New York city and this is THE FIVE.

Check this out, exclusive Fox News video showing dramatic scenes from our southern border, migrants, some with young children looking exhausted and struggling to get across the Rio Grande River in Texas. President Biden has insisted that the border is closed and that the situation is under control. But this stunning video tells a much different story.

Our own Bill Melugin on the ground and reporting over 50 migrants, mostly from Venezuela crossed in that one spot just this morning. Local authorities say border patrol is so overwhelmed that they have been forced to deal with the influx of migrants.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE FRANK MARTINEZ, SHERIFF, VAL VERDE COUNTY: It's tying up our resources. It's frustrating because there are no answers that are being given. There is not, there is not, I don't believe that there is a plan in place. Right now, we need more manpower. We need people in D.C. to make a decision, do -- do their jobs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO (on camera): Jesse, it was while watching that live this morning just like unfold right in front of your eyes.

JESSE WATTERS, FOX NEWS HOST: Yes, the border patrol looks like guest greeters out there helping people across. Is Joe Biden a member of the Sinaloa cartel? That's what he's doing. He is honestly helping them traffic these kids into our country. You're sitting there on the border, kids come in under 18. Biden helps smuggle the illegal immigrant through.

If you are an adult that comes with a minor, can't separate family so they give you a bus ticket and $1100 cash or even a plane ticket and now you are into the country. I've never seen anything like this any time an American sees this. They obviously feel compassion for these people. But I feel compassion for the American people.

And right now, Biden is in the business with the cartels. He is literally the middle man when it comes to a human smuggling pipeline, maybe, I guess it's the only pipeline Joe Biden supports. If you bring them in, cartel brings them up through Mexico, hands them to the border patrol and then the border patrol just hand them to HHS, sends them to a hotel or sends them to a convention center, and then eventually, you know, they send them to a sponsor. Guess who controls the sponsor? The cartel.

So, the cartels are on both sides and Joe is in the middle man. Taxpayers are being used to human smuggle. That's what is happening here. And the new Democrats talking point is we are speeding this up. Really? So now the speed of human smuggling, that's now something we should be proud of? We are getting these illegal immigrants out of the federal government's hands faster? To who? To the cartels on the other side of the border and they are working off cartel debt.

How do you think cartel debt gets worked off? Do you think through legal activities? That's how the crime comes in and we know it costs a fortune. Biden already put a couple billion on the books just for this. The video speaks for itself. There is no way to defend it and Biden is complicit.

PERINO: And Katie, as Jesse said, about $3 billion spent since February so far. And I believe, I don't know, were you just recently on the border? Or you've had -- you've some contacts down there telling you what's going on.

KATIE PAVLICH, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. Yes, I was in Pinal County about a month ago, which starts 70 miles north of the border. But because the reservation there doesn't allow border patrol really or for a fence to put in, a wall to be put in, the border really starts 70 miles into Arizona, 45 minutes south from Phoenix.

And yes, you are seeing what's happening on your screen now. You are seeing this is happening in Arizona. But the difference is what you're seeing here is people turning themselves in. I go to the place of the thousands of people who are being smuggled in places like Pinal County up to Phoenix who are not turning themselves in, who want to evade getting detected, the people who are involved in criminal enterprises.

And the bottom line is that human beings are now a more expensive commodity than drugs are. The cartels are making more money smuggling people, which is easier to do than smuggling drugs and they are making money on narcotics while they are still doing those things as well but they are making money on this.

And in this video if you know what you're looking for. The guy with this headwrap and in all-black --

PERINO: Yes.

PAVLICH: -- who is shuffling across the river, --

PERINO: Yes.

PAVLICH: -- that guy is a cartel member. He is a smuggler. That guy right there, the guy who grabs the kid before he drowns in the river. He is not a part of a family unit. They are smuggling these people across the boat. Where is Mexico on this? They know these guys are operating on that side of the river.

Where is the -- where are the Mexican authorities saying, no, you can't do this smuggling operation here. There is zero enforcement on the other side of the border. Where are the Mexican authorities on that? And the national security implication here and what they told me, Dana, is not just Venezuelans. There are people from Yemen. There are people from African countries. There are people from countries that have completely collapsed that have terrorist groups running the country.

And the cartels don't care where these people are from. In fact, they charge more money for people who are from countries that are on list in the United States as higher risk for national security incidents. And so, the people are getting away are also the story that's going untold here.

PERINO: Juan, there is a new A.P. poll that shows that Biden's approval rating is quite good overall. But on immigration, he is underwater. Forty- three percent approve, 54 percent disapprove. They at the White House are trying to maintain that everything is getting better. Does it look like it?

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS CO-HOST & POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, I mean things are getting better. You know, this video, I think it's such a distortion because every administration, I just want to say, every administration, people come crossing the Rio Grande illegally.

So, this is like a daily activity throughout, you know, the last 100 years. I don't know that there is anything new here except that there was a video there today and it fits in with all the people who want to beat on Biden about immigration.

So, yes, we've had a problem at the border. But yes, Dana, to reiterate the point that you said is coming from the Biden administration, things are getting better. We are seeing huge improvements on three fronts. We are seeing the number of unaccompanied minors down 88 percent in the last month. So that's nearly 90 percent decrease in the number of unaccompanied --

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS: From an all-time high.

WILLIAMS: -- minors in the last month.

PERINO: Yes.

WILLIAMS: Secondly, we are seeing a decline in the number of children being held in border patrol custody. Those who are being held also are being processed out more quickly. And third, the overall border arrest for illegal crossings right now is leveling off, a sign that fewer people are crossing. So, the surge we have been seen in this cycle seems to be going down.

PERINO: Yes.

WILLIAMS: It is still the case that we have a problem and I wish Congress would finally stop with the selfies or creating these videos to create hysteria and do something.

PERINO: Well, the video wasn't created for his hysteria which is we were on the border and this just happened to be there, Greg.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: Yes, it's there every day.

PEROINO: And that's how it was captured.

WILLIAMS: You could -- you could take the picture at any day.

PERINO: And the numbers, Greg --

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: That's the --

WATTERS: No.

PERINO: Greg, the numbers have decreased from border patrol. But now these children are being held by HHS.

GUTFELD: Yes, the saddest thing about that argument is that we've heard this argument every single day. It happens every day. It happens every day. Sure a few kids drowned. Some get raped. Right? But it happens every day. It's been going on for 100 years. It was odd that when it was happening under Trump, though, it matters. Right.

It was the immoral work of a racist man supported by racist supporters. But now when there is a Democrat, it's like, whoa! This stuff happens all the time. Relax, everybody. You will actually see this type of argument in every case by the media when a Democrat is in power.

Suddenly, you start becoming more complex or nuanced about the issue where before you will come out right and say this is damn wrong. If I were going to write a book right now, and I'm thinking about it, I would call it incentives for dummies. Because every single issue that we are facing right now has to do with the failure to understand incentives.

Number one, you pay people to do nothing, you're going to have high unemployment. People aren't going to work. Two, you defund police or you talk about defunding police that rhetoric, leaves to rise in g crime. We've seen that. You don't have any school choice, what is that lead to? bad schools. You stop building pipelines, oil prices rise. You banned drugs, you create a street market for it.

And in this case, this is an incentive pelusa. You are waiving people into this country while loudly proclaiming that the guy that was before you was a big mean racist as you stopped his wall and you think about what the wall is. That -- the wall would have worked because it was a physical -- it was physical evidence of a disincentive. All you got to do is look at the wall and you realize they don't want people coming here illegally. And it's part messaging and it's part product. It actually works.

I think it's strange that the people that claim to want something done were the first people that were against the wall, which tells you they don't want it to be done. They want the other collapse of this so they can remake it in whatever shape they want, hopefully, for them to create a larger voting bloc. That's a cynical way of looking at it.

WATTERS: One book at a time, Greg, OK?

GUTFELD: I know. Yes.

WATTERS: Take your time.

GUTFELD: And you have one coming out --

WATTERS: Right.

GUTFELD: -- so I do not want to compete with your book.

WATTERS: Yes.

PERINO: And you guys --

PAVLICH: Dana --

PERINO: Yes?

WATTERS: Please. Thank you.

PAVLICH: Can I say something real quickly --

WATTERS: maybe next year.

PERINO: Yes.

PAVLICH: -- about the wall issue? Do you remember when Nancy Pelosi fought Donald Trump on $5 billion for the wall? Well, we've have already spent $3 billion on this crisis in the first few months of the year. So, it puts the number in perspective.

PERINO: It does, indeed. All right. Straight ahead, is Dr. Fauci moving the goalpost yet again? Why he says mask wearing could be part of the new normal.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WATTERS (on camera): If government bureaucrats get their way, you will be wearing a mask for the rest of your life. Dr. Fauci agrees it's time to start easing COVID restrictions because of vaccinations. But also, he thinks masks could be here for a very long time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: So it is conceivable that as we go on a year or two or more from now, that during certain seasonal periods when you have respiratory born viruses like the flu, people might actually elect to wear masks to diminish the likelihood that you'll spread this respiratory borne diseases.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS (on camera): And the White House still can't explain why President Biden refuses to ditch his mask.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFFREY ZIENTS, COORDINATOR, WHITE HOUSE COVID-19 RESPONSE: The CDC has given guidance that when you are with family and friends that are vaccinated in small groups, you don't need a mask.

JAKE TAPPER, HOST, CNN: So why does President Biden in a room full of vaccinated journalists --

ZIENTS: Look --

TAPPER: -- with everybody in that vaccinated, why does he need to wear a mask?

ZIENTS: The president is going to continue to follow the CDC guidance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS: Well if you can be in a room with your friends that have been vaccinated, the press corps or his friends, Dana, so they should be able to be in there maskless, right?

PERINO: Look, I'm all for the pushback finally from other places. Right. And Jake really got some good questions there. He was like, it doesn't make sense. People can see that with their own eyes. What Dr. Fauci said before it was that people might elect to, which sounds better than you will be told to.

And I will tell you, I know exactly what I'm going to wear a mask next year. You know when it's really cold outside and you have to walk? Having a mask, that was actually very useful and very helpful.

WATTERS: Yes, I agree.

PERINO: And I am going to do that. But I think that getting to a point of allowing people to get their vaccines, feel comfortable, move forward, be able to go to dinner, go shopping, do all sorts of other things, it just will open things back up again. And people are going to do it whether the CDC says or not.

WATTERS: Greg, do you think that a lot of Americans watch television and see Joe Biden with a mask on and say hey, maybe I should keep mine on?

GUTFELD: I don't know. I mean, that's a good question about all of the news. You know, I don't know if we want to go there.

WATTERS: Yes. OK.

GUTFELD: But I --

WATTERS: We don't have all that time.

GUTFELD: Yes. I think that -- I think it goes back to the fact that the American people have to take the lead on this, right?

PERINO: Yes.

GUTFELD: Because none of the leaders are going to say not to do it because they are too busy trying to cover their butts. They don't want to be responsible by any kind of uptick in death by saying this or that. So, we need to be the people that on mask. It's just one of those things. It's kind of a simple of all kinds of weird regulations. They are easier to implement than unemployment.

Obama knew this with Obamacare. He knew it was a bad product but he knew that once he got the bad product out there, it was never going to go away. And maybe in time it might slightly improve or maybe they will figure it out. But you cannot make it disappear. And the thing -- the reason why you can't make things disappear is people are terrified. And I mean people, I mean bureaucrats. They are terrified of risk.

So, if you look at Fauci especially, he could say take off your mask and he'd be fine, but he can't do that. So, it's much easier just to keep it there and cover his posterior than to take it off because no one wants to be seen as anti-mask. it's being like anti-healthcare. You want people to die.

WATTERS: Yes, that's true and they think you are a Neanderthal, right, Katie?

GUTFELD: Right.

WATTERS: If you don't wear a mask, they think you're going to just try to --

PAVLICH: Yes.

WATTERS: -- murder everybody with a blunt object.

PAVLICH: Yes. If you don't wear your China paper, that's made in China, which is a lot of the masks that everybody is wearing, they think that you are a bad person and that you deliberately want to hurt people, which obviously isn't true.

But Dr. Fauci is a perfect example of someone who has been in the bureaucracy of Washington, D.C. for way too long. Because if you around and walk around Washington, people are still masked. People are riding their bikes masked. They are double masking when they go to the dog park and they are 20 feet away from everybody else.

But if you go to Florida or Texas, which has been open for months, nobody is wearing a mask and the rates of infection have been going down consistently since they took those mask mandates off. So, it's a matter of him being insulated in a bubble, which is Washington. But also, this idea that if you say the pandemic is coming to an end, you can take your mask off, which of course is a symbol of the pandemic.

Well, then Dr. Fauci's interview requests start going down just like the cases of COVID. And he really likes being on TV every day. He really likes being on the front page, or on the front cover of a magazine. He likes that new authority that he has as a bureaucrat and the highest-paid person in the federal government. So, there are two issues at hand here.

WATTERS: So, he's keeping this alive too for airtime. Juan Williams, to be honest with you --

(CROSSTALK)

PAVLICH: And talk about them.

WATTERS: -- maybe we can meet in the middle. I don't mind if some people wear masks. I don't want to see everyone's face. But just don't look at me sideways if I'm not wearing one. Or don't let me go somewhere when I've been vaccinated and I can go wherever I want maskless.

WILLIAMS: Well, I mean, we have good news around here. I mean, for me, I'm a sports fan and now you are seeing some of the arenas opening up higher levels of capacity. But when you go indoors, they still want people to wear masks, Jesse, because you don't know if somebody says that they have been vaccinated and haven't been vaccinated or we have this whole argument over vaccination passports and the like.

But you know, to me, this is a great success story and I think Dr. Fauci is to be celebrated. Joe Biden, this is the number one success for Joe Biden. Dana was mentioning that A.P. poll today. The A.P. poll says that the American people say 71 percent of them say that they approve of the way Joe Biden and by extension, Dr. Fauci have handled this coronavirus.

It is this biggest booster for Joe Biden, who I think is that like 63 percent overall. You look at the new cases were 42,000 daily, Jesse. That is down to 80 percent from when Joe Biden took office.

WATTERS: I love it.

WATTERS: I mean, the biggest problem we have now really is not lack of vaccines. It's lack of demand for vaccines. That's a huge shift and now we can focus on saying hey, people, go out and get the vaccine. Talk to your neighbors, your friends. Nobody is having adverse effects. This is a good thing. And it means that we can go --

WATTERS: Yes.

WILLIAMS: -- totally free, totally free sooner. So, go get the vaccine.

WATTERS: I agree and I think that message would help if you took the mask off when you are around your friends in the White House press corps.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: I don't think -- I think that's a little --

WATTERS: It's totally true. Fox News alert. The FDA just authorized the Pfizer vaccine for children ages 12 to 15 years old. Clinical trials show the vaccine to be highly effective in that age group. Over 150 million Americans have received at least one shot. That's good news.

Next on THE FIVE. President Biden taking a shot at small business owners who were struggling during the pandemic.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUTFELD: President Biden's agenda could be driving the economy into a ditch. The jobs report was a major miss and small business owners say they can't compete with generous unemployment benefits paying people more to stay at home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: Many people want to work. No, they don't when they are handing them so much money, so much unemployment, it's backfiring.

UNKNOWN: They're incentivizing people to stay home. And that just doesn't make sense.

UNKNOWN: I would love to take the un out of unemployment benefits. Let's incentivize employees to come back to work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: But President Biden says business owners like that don't know what they are talking about.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Anyone collecting unemployment was offered a suitable job must take the job or lose their unemployment benefits.

I know there has been a lot of discussion since Friday, since Friday's report that people are being paid to stay home rather than go to work. Well, we don't see much evidence of that. I think the people who claim Americans won't work even if they find a good and fair opportunity underestimate the American people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: So, I was going to go to you, Dana, because I could hear the steam coming out of your ears. You are sitting around the corner from me and I could actually see. It was like a teapot. There was smoke coming out of the door. I figured I better go to you.

Which part of that upsets you more? The fact that he says he doesn't see that much evidence of it or the fact that he has never actually ran a business in his life? I think he's never run a business, I don't know, before he entered politics. Who knows?

PERINO: Two parts. Let's start with the evidence issue. So, you've heard this from the administration since last week. That even though you have anecdotal evidence, and you have business owners who are saying as you can find like once an hour on Fox News, you can line them up.

And actually, not just on Fox News. This is happening at CNN, and MSNBC. Everybody in the news is talking about this because it's real. And what the administration is asking is for data that does actually exist? Right? There is not a measurement. They are trying to tell you that you have to have data and evidence as if that mattered in this case. Because there's -- it's impossible to prove. So, they are shifting the burden of proof on the business owners. But they are feeling it. They are seeing it and I actually think that the White House truly knows this.

But here is another thing. So last week we talked to a guy who owns a restaurant. Was offering $21 an hour for dishwashers. Still can't get enough people there. And one of the things that the White House said today, is it's because people don't get $15 an hour minimum wage. But they were paying $6 more than that.

So, again, where is your evidence that that's not true? I would shift the burden of proof back to them. The final thing is I do think there is a problem with just perception. And that is that when we say something like your incentive, Greg, to your point in the A-block, the incentives are off.

The incentive is we're getting -- that this money is coming to you and it's not just an unemployment benefit. We know there is a ton of money going out and lots of different ways. The incentive is that you make a rational decision to stay at home or to do something else. Basically, I think when were -- when you say something like, they just want to stay on the couch,

GUTFELD: Right.

PERINO: It sounds like you're saying, oh, they're being lazy, when actually, they're just making a rational decision.

GUTFELD: True.

PERINO: For themselves. So, I think maybe at the language front, that could be cleaned up.

GUTFELD: Yes, it's like $15.00 to stay at home versus $20.00 to wash dishes. I'll eat the $5.00. Juan, what do you have to say to Dana's cogent analysis?

WILLIAMS: I know she loves those anecdotes. She loves having guests on the show, so I'm all for it, Dana. But I must say that I think numbers do matter and economics. And if we really had a labor shortage, I think you would see wage rates go up, and we're not seeing wages suddenly skyrocketing because there's a labor shortage in America. That's not the case.

In fact, I would also say, there's no sign of inflation out there. You look at something like the 10-year bonds. The 10-year bond right now, if you went out and bought a 10-year bond right now, you're -- the interest rates like 1.6 percent. That means people are buying them, and they are buying them, on the premise that inflation is going to be less than one percent, near zero for the next 10 years.

These are people who are in the financial services business. It's their -- it's their business. The GDP right now, if it goes in first-quarter rates, we would have like a six percent growth rate. So, these are all very positive. Yes, we might have some hiccups there, supply chains, disruptions, but this is not about anybody being a, you know, a lag, a slacker, or somehow lazy. No, this is just not who we are. And that's the American story. I can tell you that.

GUTFELD: Jesse, what do you -- do you want to talk about the numbers?

WILLIAMS: Please, if I may. Juan said so many things that were wrong there, I'm going to do my best to refute all of them. First of all, Juan, you talk about no labor shortage. There were seven million job openings last month, and only 250,000 Americans took a job. That's what you'd call a shortage of workers. Second of all --

WILLIAMS: Did you see the labor rate -- did you see the price -- did you see the price of labor going up?

WATTERS: Juan -- hey, Juan, you want to talk about commodity prices, gasoline, food, lumber, everything's gone up, and that's actually in our research packet. So, how did I read the research and you didn't. That's a first. Second of all --

WILLIAMS: I read it and I could tell you --

WATTERS: You had $800 a week with unemployment benefits, all right, $800 a week. Let's say your wife also gets $800 a week. You know how much that adds up to a year, Juan? That's 80 grand a year for as Danna said staying on your couch. Rational decision to stay on your couch when you're making $15,000 above the median income level.

WILLIAMS: Oh, my God.

WATTERS: That's a lot of money. That is a lot of money, Juan. You're going to now say -- and this is what Biden said which was the probably the dumbest thing he's ever said. That's why he's an economic illiterate as Greg suggested. He goes well, you know what, why don't businesses they just raise wages.

Oh, like these small business owners are like Jerry Jones, owner the Cowboys, just like throwing around $20 million contracts and signing free agents in the offseason. These are mom-and-pop retail shops and restaurant owners there. They're not just going to be like, all right, you know what, dishwasher, let's give you 40 grand. Hostess, let's give you 35 grand.

That they are small profit margins, Juan, They don't have money like that to just raise wages. You got to be out of your mind.

GUTFELD: All right, Katie, bring it home or bring it somewhere.

PAVLICH: Well, I think 2020 was -- 2020 was the year of the toilet paper shortage but I think this year 2021 will be the year of toilet paper being too expensive because inflation is already here and more of it is coming.

GUTFELD: All right, well, there you go.

PAVLICH: Not a good situation.

GUTFELD: No, we are not flush. Coming up, a new twist in the Bill and Melinda Gates divorce involving dead pedophile Jeffrey Epstein.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS: The Wall Street Journal reporting Jeffrey Epstein may have played a role in Bill and Melinda Gates divorcing. According to the paper, Melinda has consulted with divorce lawyers back in 2019, which is around the time when reports began to surface that Bill Gates had ties to Epstein.

The couple has not said what led to their split and Bill Gates has denied any wrongdoing with Epstein. But he did previously say this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL GATES, CO-FOUNDER, MICROSOFT CORPORATION: I made a mistake in judgment that I thought that those discussions would lead literally to billions of dollars going to global health. It turned out I -- that was a bad --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: Fox News reached out to Bill Gates for comment but we didn't hear back. Now, Greg, let me just ask you a simple question here. If there's a picture of a husband with Epstein, is that enough for a wife to ask for divorce?

GUTFELD: No. You know what's funny? It's a good question because we are living in a time where now any picture is like -- could be -- could be used against you. And if you're a celebrity, especially as a big one like me, I am in a lot of like -- I sign a lot of books, I meet a lot of fans, you never know, Epstein could have been in line to get my book the Joy of Hate, which by the way you should order, and you know, you get a picture taken with him. And all of a sudden, it's like Gutfeld seen with Jeffrey Epstein.

But I have a theory on this. I don't know anything about this at all and that's not going to stop me. I wonder -- I think the more probable -- the more probable reality is that this is a nasty divorce. And a good lawyer, a great lawyer is especially nasty and would use everything possible in your toolkit to tar and feather the other spouse.

And it always astounds me in divorces, big-name divorces, how people can accuse each other of the very worst thing as part of the negotiation. And then when it's all over, everybody's like, oh, no, it really didn't happen. We're all -- everything's fine. I try -- I mean, he hit me, she hit me. He drove the kids drunk, and then all that stuff just goes away when they sign on the dotted line.

I have a feeling that this is -- there's something -- I mean, she's so pissed off at him for something. It could be the naked swim parties. I don't know.

WILLIAMS: What?

GUTFELD: The naked swim parties.

WILLIAMS: I didn't hear about that one.

GUTFELD: Oh, yes, it's in the -- that's in the post today, in the post today. I only went to three of them and there are no pictures.

WILLIAMS: All right, so, Dana, so let's just do a little journalism. Who do you think is the source for that Wall Street Journal article? Is it Melinda Gates is lawyers? Is it Bill Gates' lawyers? You know, it's $130 billion at stake.

PERINO: I don't know. I mean, it could be Jeffrey Epstein from the grave. I have no idea who it is. I do know that -- in her language, she says that the marriage was irretrievably broken.

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: So that means something was bad. I don't know what it is. But for to spend that much time together in a lifetime, to have those children, to have this effort, the company that you build, and the philanthropy that you built, then to say that it is irretrievably broken, we may never know actually what really happened. And, you know, obviously, I hope for their - - for their sakes that they can get some privacy. But this story obviously would raise a lot of eyebrows so they say.

WILLIAMS: Yes. So, Katie, we do know that Gates flew with Epstein down to Florida in 2013. That jet obviously a lot of talk. But we don't have any evidence that he's done anything immoral, right?

PAVLICH: With Jeffrey Epstein or in other situations?

WILLIAMS: Yes, with anybody. Yes, anybody.

PAVLICH: Well, look, look, I think this is revenge from Melinda for his live in girlfriend that he got to go visit once a year or once a month or whatever that weird arrangement was throughout the course of their marriage. I am with Greg. I don't think this is an amicable divorce -- amicable divorce. I think this is going to get even nastier when you're starting out with the Epstein card. I don't know what the connection was there.

But the news that I'm interested in today is Bennifer being back, which Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez, are allegedly dating again. I mean, that's a big deal, guys. That's new news.

PERINO: They're talking about it in the greenroom.

GUTFELD: Spotted in Montana.

PAVLICH: Yes.

WILLIAMS: Jesse, is it possible, Jessie, that Melinda, and Bill married a long time and just fell out of love?

WATTERS: That's possible, although I'm with Gutfeld. This was a fastball from her legal team and said, we're ready to play dirty, and it's going to go the way I want it to go. Or maybe there was some sort of relationship between Gates and Epstein that we don't know about that really precipitated it.

I don't know, but I'm with Greg. I'm just going to speculate. And here's my speculation. I think that Epstein was looking for a whale. Remember, he had Les Wexner's money, the Victoria's Secret billionaire. And he managed his money and help them move money around for the IRS. He was looking for the next whale. And who's bigger whale than the richest guy in the world at the time than Gates.

And I know that Gates actually sent an e-mail after they met that's been published that says, you know, this guy's interesting, very intriguing, not necessarily how I would live my life. But you know what, that's who he is. And I think that's kind of an acknowledgment that he was aware of something that Epstein was involved in, although we don't know to the extent.

WILLIAMS: All right, up next, comedian Dave Chappelle calling out the woke backlash to Elon Musk hosting Saturday Night Live next for you on THE FIVE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PAVLICH: Well, a lot of liberals not happy with Elon Musk hosting Saturday Night Live. Some cast members taking to social media to air their grievances against the billionaire. But comedian Dave Chappelle is calling out the backlash.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVE CHAPPELLE, COMEDIAN: No one can be woken off. You're not going to nag people into behaving --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

CHAPPELLE: -- in a way that's -- you know, in fact, if you continue with this tone, even if you're right, you'll be very hard to hear.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAVLICH: So, Greg, political correctness killed comedy a long time ago, but wokeness is putting the final nail in the coffin.

GUTFELD: Well, it's interesting. What he's -- what Chappelle is talking about, and this was actually before the SNL thing, is that comedians can talk a good game on wokeness until they get up on stage, because it's not funny. And so, it's like you lose the kind of humanity.

A lot of the things that people talk about, what comedians talk about is shocking and gross and funny about sex and love and drugs and all this. All that stuff goes out the window. Everything goes out the window. When you want to talk about your uncle, or you want to talk about your friends, and stuff -- all that stuff goes away if you follow the parameters of the woke.

And I think that -- I think -- I'm optimistic that more comedians and younger comedians are rebelling against this. Apparently not on SNL, though.

PAVLICH: Well, it's apparently not. But now, we have other sources of information, so we don't have to watch SNL if we don't want to. But Dana, the issue with wokeness is that it eventually eats everybody even if you think that you're woke. Like, you said, you're ever woken up.

PERINO: Yes, it's almost like somebody's playing a prank on you, right? So, just when you think that maybe you like, sacrifice on the altar of wokeness, and then you wake up in the morning like actually, nope, you still got to do more and it will never ever end. I like listening to Chappelle. I think he's very wise. He has good comments.

I also think that if he needs any material, if anyone -- you know, if any of these comedians need some material, I got some corny jokes that I've been saving up. It really, really brings down the house. They got to try that.

PAVLICH: Yes, indeed. I would buy tickets to that show, Dana. All right, Juan, I love Dave Chappelle. I think he's funny. I think he's really smart. I like his humor. And I like that he's kind of fighting back against this cancel culture woke mob that we keep saying.

WILLIAMS: Yes, I think that's great. I'm not sure about this one in the sense that I think a lot of the resentment towards Elon Musk is that he's a famous rich guy. But in terms of comedic talent, in terms of musical talent, acting talent, even as a politician, you know, takes a lot of achievement to be invited to host Saturday Night Live.

And I think a lot of the young and up-and-coming talent bear thought is he just being invited because he's rich and famous. And he's famous, by the way, for his electric car, which was subsidized by the government to a large extent. So, I think there's a lot of resentment of elitist or favoritism going to the rich and, you know, the rich who are famous for being rich.

GUTFELD: None of those people will send anybody to space.

PERINO: But everybody who goes to SNL is rich and famous.

WATTERS: Wait a second. Wait a second.

PAVLICH: None of those --

GUTFELD: He sent people to space.

PAVLICH: Elon was funny.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: (INAUDIBLE)

WATTERS: Juan, did you say, you're not happy. Wait, can I just ask Juan a question? Juan is not happy that the federal government subsidize an electric car line? Isn't that what your whole platform is about? I mean, that's what the Green New Deal literally is.

WILLIAMS: No, Jesse.

WATTERS: I don't know why you wouldn't want Elon Musk to get money. I mean, that's what you guys out there push.

PERINO: I'm against it.

WATTERS: And what's wrong with Musk? He's in fact the most interesting person in the world, Juan. He's an interesting guy.

WILLIAMS: No, in fact -- in fact -- I don't consider him the most interesting.

WATTERS: Being woke is now the new boring.

WILLIAMS: OK.

WATTERS: You don't think Elon Musk is interesting? I think he's pretty interesting.

WILLIAMS: Not to me. But I must -- I think he's brilliant.

WATTERS: You don't want him to host Saturday Night Live, Elon Musk? He's a space pioneer.

WILLIAMS: No.

WATTERS: Yes. He's a brilliant space pioneer that likes cannabis. And liberals don't like him. I mean, what's not to like?

PERINO: I miss watching "WATTERS' WORLD."

WILLIAMS: Oh, is that right? Oh, my God.

PAVLICH: Well, I think -- I think that Dana should --

WILLIAMS: OK, I can answer you but we got to go apparently.

PAVLICH: I think Dana should do comedy with Elon Musk in space, but we have to get on a spaceship first do that.

PERINO: OK.

PAVLICH: All right, "ONE MORE THING" up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: It's time for "ONE MORE THING." Jesse.

WATTERS: You thought we forgot, didn't you, Dana?

PERINO: What?

WATTERS: Happy Birthday.

PERINO: Thank you.

PAVLICH: Happy Birthday.

WATTERS: Yesterday was Dana Perino's birthday and she celebrated with family. Her mom, Jen, flew in from Colorado. Husband Peter, obviously was there and of course, Jasper. That looks like good cake. And I wish I could have a slice. But, you know, beach season is coming up, so you got to be careful.

PERINO: Yes, you got to watch your calories. I know.

WATTERS: And also, happy birthday to Scott Sanders, my producer here on THE FIVE.

PERINO: Today is -- all right, Scott Sanders, you're in good company. Yes, I have to say that Peter pulling off the surprise of bringing my mom out. I had no idea. I was completely shocked. And to get a hug from your mom, you know, for the first time since February 2020 was awesome. Vaccinations help. She was on the plane. All was good, so thanks.

I'll go next. So, I had a chance to talk to a good friend, Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She has a great podcast. I highly recommend it. We talked about all sorts of things, including the book, Everything Will Be Okay. But I have to say, if you're looking for a role model, and some of that embodies grit and grace and dignity, Ayaan Hirsi Ali has that and so much.

WATTERS: Jesse Watters.

PERINO: And Jesse Watters. That's true. Also, check out this good boy. He was reading the paper. Check it out. I mean, that's pretty cute. I don't know how they figured out how to do that. But that is a good-looking dog. He's got the sports page right there.

PAVLICH: What kind of dog, Jesse?

PERINO: I was going to ask that, Katie.

WATTERS: I'm going to go with golden retriever.

PERINO: Very good. Very good. Greg, you're next.

WATTERS: That's the one I know.

GUTFELD: I was just thinking. It'd be really hard to go to Ayaan Hirsi Ali's Web site. I was just looking at it. It's like, I would get -- I would never put it in correctly. All right, let's do this.

WATTERS: Two ways in a row. That's tough.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: Animals are great. Animals are great. Animals are great.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: I hate it when people walk in on me when I'm doing something really bad like these guys here. You come home -- this is why you lock the door, people. Lock the door. No one will come in on you. This is amazing. That looks like a typical weekend. There you go.

PERINO: Oh, my goodness.

WATTERS: Rottweilers.

GUTFELD: Yes, there you go. All right, I will shut up now.

PERINO: That's great. Juan.

WATTERS: Not Rottweilers? I thought they were Rottweilers.

WILLIAMS: All right, well, happy birthday, kid. Happy birthday. Anyway, she's only seven but she'll become the first child to send something to the moon. Elizabeth Norman so impressed a private company working with NASA that they invited her at no cost to send a sticker to the moon. It reads Astro Liz's Lab.

The sticker will be in a time capsule on the first vessel to land on the moon since Apollo 17 in 1972. Everything else in that time capsule, people are paying to put in there. The English girl made a cardboard replica of a rocket, launched it, and that's what caught the attention of the Launch Alliance, a private company working with NASA. That ship will touch the moon later this year.

PERINO: That's cool. All right, Katie, we've got 15 seconds.

PAVLICH: Well, I think I'll save mine for tomorrow but as a space nerd kid who went to astronomy camp, I love, love, love that this little girls is doing that project.

PERINO: I also -- I need to remember. I need to have you on "AMERICA'S NEWSROOM" when we talk space.

WATTERS: You went to astronomy camp?

PERINO: Yes, she did.

GUTFELD: It's not a big deal.

PAVLICH: I love space. I did.

PERINO: All right, that's it for us. "SPECIAL REPORT" is up next. Hey, Bret.

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