Detroit police chief on anti-law enforcement sentiment in America

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Detroit police chief on anti-law enforcement sentiment in America

Detroit Police Chief James Craig joins Martha MacCallum on 'The Story.'

This is a rush transcript from "The Story," September 14, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: All right everybody, breaking tonight. This is a picture of a 31-year old police officer in Los Angeles. She is covered in blood and she is applying a tourniquet to her 24-year old partner. She's not in a drug gang in Columbia, she's on the streets of America where the officers who are new on the job and have stuck it out while so many of their superiors have retired are in danger on all sides.

Good evening everybody. I'm Martha McCallum in New York and this is “The Story” with 50 days until the presidential election. Now these officers were shot in this point blank ambush. Saturday night, sitting in their patrol car, police were looking for a man, a male between the ages of 20 and 30 who you see running off in that picture.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Those two deputies were sworn in just 14 months ago. The one you saw in the picture is the mother of a six year old child, little boy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: So this video was reportedly shot by an eye witness and now seen by millions of people online. They were reportedly just a few feet away from where those two officers were bleeding and fighting for their lives but this is what these individuals had to say about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, I think they got bust off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No justice, no peace.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn it on your knee. Damn. Oh, too serious a sight in the face. They just get out (inaudible) Somebody ran up on their car and bust on it right through the window in the face and on.

MACCALLUM: So then later, outside the hospital where the police officers were being treated, these people gathered pushing their way up to the front of the hospital and ended up shouting, "we hope they die" after they tried to get back past, I should say to brave security guards who were called pigs by them, they were oinked-oinked to their faces. They were laughing at them.

The guards told them that they could not pass. Watch this exchange.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are out here at Saint Francis hospital where two of America's most notorious gang members have been brought to. We're going to go up here and just check going on these murderers right here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You see what's happening right here, right? They got these pigs out here. They are telling us that we cannot come in here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [BEEP] the police. [BEEP] the police. [BEEP] y'all. [BEEP] y'all. There's going to be more. There's going to be more. Oink oink.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to get ready mother [BEEP].

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [BEEP] the police. It's a celebration. I hope they die mother [BEEP].

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Having a great time. So President Trump tweeted that the suspect in this case, who you see run up to that police vehicle is an animal that must be hit hard. Strong language and that if the officers died, there should be a fast trial death penalty for the killer. That coming from the president.

Joe Biden said that the perpetrator must be brought to justice and that violence towards police is unacceptable and outrageous. This is voters in the battleground states of Minnesota and Wisconsin say that crime in the United States is a major problem. You can see the numbers in those two states up in the sixties as something that is very much on their minds as they look toward the election.

Ron Hernandez is the President of the Association for Los Angeles Deputy Sheriffs and he joins me now. Sir, thank you for being here tonight. It is so difficult and despicable to watch the reaction of those people to the shooting of these young police officers. How are they doing tonight?

RON HERNANDEZ, PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION FOR LOS ANGELES DEPUTY SHERIFFS: They're doing a lot better. I've talked to the family. I haven't gotten in to see the deputies because of COVID and all that so I've been kind of sitting back and leaving that for the family to go in there and see them periodically but I've been told, they're doing very well.

MACCALLUM: So what has incensed the individuals that we saw on those two tapes are several incidents in the area. One was the shooting of Dijon Kinzee, 29-year old in Westmont last month who was stopped while riding a bicycle. That sparked very tense protests and a number of incidents that they are referring to here. What's your reaction to what is driving their anger?

HERNANDEZ: I'll just make it real quick. I don't want to really comment too much on those other two incidents but I'll make the - point out the real obvious fact is that in those two incidents, those two gentlemen were in possession of firearms and deputies were doing their job.

The outcome you know they're not happy with and you know that will come out when investigation is finished and we'll deal with it then but the fact of the matter is I don't know how anybody could actually equate these two incidents. Somebody in the commission of a crime carrying a firearm he's not allowed to have and coming - you know encountering law enforcement and then two deputies sitting at a train station, providing security while doing their jobs and just sitting there minding their own business and somebody comes out of the woodwork and shoots them.

This wasn't a police contact situation that went bad. This is literally two deputy sitting there, minding their own business, having come into work to provide safety for the community and they were victimized by somebody from the community.

MACCALLUM: We had we had a similar ambush in New York City and both of those officers lost their lives when that happened so we're all very grateful that these two individuals are expected to survive. That's very good news. This is from the Lynwood city manager in the area Jose Ometetotl who posted about this, the chickens have come home to roost.

He said the political climate and leadership of Sheriff Villanueva has only sowed the seeds of anger and frustration in this community. Your response to that, Sir.

HERNANDEZ: I've seen that I think it's pretty pathetic but you know just like we normally do, we're going to let the process see through and you know quite frankly, he deserves to be able to say something. You know I try to be open-minded about everything and make the assumption that maybe you know somebody posted that in his name.

I don't know but bottom line is to have a city manager post something like that, that insensitive I think is pretty pathetic.

MACCALLUM: We saw horrific shootings across the country this weekend. There were 12 people who lost their lives in Chicago. It feels like we report something - numbers along those lines almost every Monday lately. You spoke I understand, I believe you did with both the president and also the former vice president Joe Biden about what happened over the weekend in California.

Can you share with us what the major thrust was of their comments to you?

HERNANDEZ: Yes I spoke so I spoke with their administration and basically what I was really, really happy about it was both sides related that they wanted to send their regards to the family and to the deputies and they just wanted to make sure they were OK and they would like to speak to them at some point in the future.

So we're going to see if we can get that done but right now the family just wants privacy.

MACCALLUM: Of course.

HERNANDEZ: To be able to look out for their loved ones.

MACCALLUM: We wish him well and we'll be praying for them as well. We thank you very much Mr. Hernandez. Good to have you with us tonight. Thank you Sir. Joining me now is the Detroit Police Chief James Craig. Sir, thank you so much. Good to have you with us.

JAMES CRAIG, DETROIT POLICE CHIEF: Yes, thank you Martha.

MACCALLUM: You know in the face of all of the violence that we've seen across the country and these incidents, there are I think 20 police chiefs now who have resigned and you have also been called on to resign and I just want to point out that that one of those individuals in Rochester, La'Ron Singletary of Rochester said that he was going to step down tonight.

We just learned that the mayor there has decided that she's not going to let him do that. He's been fired so he is now out as well. Why do you resist leaving when so many have just said they just can't take it anymore?

CRAIG: You know, I got to tell you Martha. It is clear to me what's really going on. It's not about who the police chief is sitting in the seat whether the police chief is black or he's white, Asian, male, female. It's deeper than that.

If you talk against this group, you must go. That's your attitude. I've taken a firm stand here in Detroit. I've been supported by Detroiters. Let me just say, Detroit doesn't want them gone and so I'm not leaving, they have to leave. And I've said it publicly, both locally and nationally and I'm going to hold my ground because our men and women who serve deserve much better than this.

And I got to say Martha, if I can, I just want to pray for those two offices out in the Los Angeles county sheriffs. I spent 20 years of my career in LAPD and so it's despicable. I'm angry about it. A coward who's part of this whole agenda. That's what's going on in there. We need to call it what it is.

MACCALLUM: Yes, a while back I interviewed the person in charge of Black Lives Matter in greater New York and he has said that you know, once - if a black person becomes a cop, they're no longer a black person. They're - they're blue. What would you say to him if you had the opportunity?

CRAIG: That's ridiculous. I've been an African-American male all my life. I started in this business 44 years ago, 10 years after the civil unrest in the city of Detroit. I've been a proud African-American. I rose to the ranks. Nobody gave me anything so for him to say that who does he call, who does his family call when they need help? They call the police.

MACCALLUM: No doubt and I want to play this. This is from Senator Ed Markey who just won a tight election in Massachusetts. He is saying that we must disarm officers. There's a lot of back and forth over what it means to defund the police but he's really laying it out quite clearly. This is Ed Markey.

"Portland police routinely attack peaceful protesters with brute force. We must disarm these officers and every other police department in America, of weapons of war and enact a nationwide ban on tear gas, rubber and plastic bullets and bean bag rounds." What would you say to Ed Markey, Sir?

CRAIG: Absolutely ridiculous. You know what I find fascinating Martha and even Rashid Tlaib here out of my state here in Michigan who is calling for me to resign, let me just say this. When are we going to start talking about disarming criminals? I've been on the record, I support law abiding citizens to be armed but criminals?

And so it's OK to attack police officers and then everyone always says one thing, these were peaceful protesters so I guess when you throw a Molotov cocktails, railroad spikes, other projectiles, using green lasers, I guess that constitutes being peaceful.

We have never tried to stop folks from their right to free speech. We've been dealing with this for in excess of 100 days. Six instances where we've had to use force because they were either attacking us or they resisted a lawful arrest. Enough is enough and I got to tell you, shame on that city manager out there in California.

If anybody needs to step down, instead of the police chiefs, he needs to go.

MACCALLUM: Chief Craig, we thank you so much for your service across this country in Los Angeles and now in Detroit. It's a very tough job and we have a lot of respect for you and for the people who are - who are sticking it out. Thank you so much Sir. Great to have you here tonight.

CRAIG: Yes Martha, always.

MACCALLUM: Come back another time soon. Coming up next, the race for COVID vaccine as the number of cases countrywide are falling.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: So as the former Vice President Joe Biden and Democrats continue to hammer the president for his response to the COVID-19 pandemic, one story that has not gotten as much attention are the numbers. When you look at the downward shift in the overall trend of new cases and thankfully in the death rate as well.

New infections have been down for eight consecutive weeks across the board and daily fatalities thankfully, have dropped from - have dropped to 71 percent from the horrific peak that was hit back in April.

This as pharmaceutical companies around the world continue the race for a vaccine. AstraZeneca trials are now cleared to resume in the U.K. after pausing last week when a volunteer developed an unexplained illness but despite all these advances, experts like Dr. Fauci remain doubtful that society can return to normal any time soon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NIAID: If you're talking about getting back to a degree of normality which resembles where we were prior to COVID, it's going to be well into 2021, maybe even towards the end of 2021.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Here now Dr. Richard Besser, President and CEO of Robert Wood Johnson Foundation and former Acting Director of the CDC. Doctor, thank you so much for being here tonight. Great to have you with us.

DR. RICHARD BESSER, PRESIDENT & CEO, RWJF: Thanks Martha.

MACCALLUM: To what do you attribute the improvements that we see in these charts? The decline in the death rate which is obviously the most important factor of all?

BESSER: You know I think it's important when you see numbers like that, that overall look very encouraging, that you zero in on that and look state by state because when you think about a pandemic, it's an outbreak that takes place across the globe but it doesn't take place at the same rate in the same case in each location.

MACCALLUM: Right.

BESSER: And one of the things that's been encouraging is some of the states, Florida, Texas, Arizona, that had seen big increases over the course of the summer, they pushed for people to change what they were doing. Many encouraged localities to require mask wearing, many closed the indoor dining and bars that have been linked to a lot of outbreaks.

And I think because of that we're seeing reductions in those numbers. There are a number of states where the numbers are creeping up and it's important that the public health officials in those states look and say OK, what's going on here? Has there been a change in any particular activity that could be linked to the increases that they're seeing?

MACCALLUM: Yes, I mean for one you've got kids moving around the country, going back to college in some cases and you can kind of see that bump up and then it - and then hopefully a cool down after it kind shifts in those areas. It is I think by any estimation very surprising that we are actually seeing these trials of several vaccines because in the beginning of this, we were told that it would take at least a couple of years, that the fastest vaccine never was developed in four years so you know is that remarkable to you and how optimistic are you that we will have something that will be fairly distributable and you know able to get your hands on if you're someone who needs it?

BESSER: Well you know, I'm encouraged by the amount of effort that's going in to develop the vaccine, the idea that the government has bought doses of vaccines in case the trial show that they're effective.

But I urge caution and I use the phrase if we have a vaccine because there's no guarantee that any of these trials will definitively show that a vaccine is safe and effective. I'm optimistic because there's many different approaches to vaccination that are being explored but there are a lot of infectious diseases you know, HIV and malaria and Hepatitis C where scientists have worked for decades and we still don't have a vaccine.

So we can't rely on that, we have to take the measures of wearing masks and social distancing and hand washing to ensure that we have this under control until a situation where we have an effective vaccine.

MACCALLUM: Dr. Besser, thank you. Good to have you here tonight Sir.

BESSER: Thank you Martha.

MACCALLUM: So coming up next, my discussion with Secretary of State Mike Pompeo on the disturbing new report claiming that Iran was planning to assassinate one of our U.S. ambassadors in retaliation for the death of Qassem Soleimani.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: Iran is denying an unnerving report that it is plotting to kill our U.S. ambassador to South Africa, Lana Marks. The report says the regime is looking for a way to avenge the death of Iran's top General Qassem Soleimani who was killed in a U.S. air strike back in January.

Marks has few or no links to Iran if any but the intelligence report does cite her close friendship with President Trump. Joining me now is reaction to that and also his trip over the weekend to the Taliban-Afghan peace talks is Secretary of State Mike Pompeo just back from Qatar.

How real is that threat to Lana Marks and what is the state department doing to protect her?

MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE, UNITED STATES: See Martha, I can't comment on the intelligence but I'll say this. The Islamic Republic of Iran is engaged in assassination efforts all across the world. They've assassinated people in Europe and in other parts of the world.

We take these kind of allegations seriously. We'll do everything that's within our means to protect anyone of our state department officials the same way we do for our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines and we make very clear to the Islamic Republic around this kind of activity, attacking any American at any place at any time, whether it's an American diplomat, an ambassador or one of our service members is completely unacceptable.

MACCALLUM: I mean everyone has horrific memories of what happened in Benghazi. Is there any reason to think that there are other ambassadors on their list?

POMPEO: You know Martha, I'm always on guard with respect to the team that works for me. One of my first things I do every morning is get a security update from all across the world. It's a dangerous world out there. We do an enormous amount of work to protect our people and we know that the Islamic Republic of Iran is the world's largest state sponsor of terror and they've conducted this kind of assassination before.

We're doing everything we can to keep everyone safe.

MACCALLUM: Let me ask you this because we also learned that Ambassador Terry Branstad is going to be leaving his post in China. What more can you tell us about why that is? That was a bit of a surprise.

POMPEO: Oh goodness, Terry has served the president and me and the state department team an unbelievable way for these past years. He's done yeoman's work, helping us deliver on something that's a complete change from what any administration is done with respect to the Chinese Communist Party.

So I said to know last night. I was thanking Terry. It's something he's been thinking about for a while that he wants to come home, go back to Iowa and do the kinds of things he was doing back there before. I thank Terry for his service. I know this team will pick up the march in his absence.

MACCALLUM: So nothing more to it than that because I know there was an Op- ed that he wanted to run in a Chinese newspaper which they refused to run. Any indication that any of those things are part of his reasoning?

POMPEO: Yes. No, I don't think that had anything to do with it although I will say, the fact that the Chinese Communist Party denied Terry the chance to put a simple Op-ed explaining U.S. policy to the people of China, I think it's very telling about that society.

MACCALLUM: So obviously we are in the middle of campaign season and Joe Biden has come out to talk about the Trump-Pompeo policy towards China. He says that there's a smarter way to be - I'm sorry with regard to Iran, I should say. He says there's a smarter way to be tough on Iran.

Five years ago Iran was a bad regional actor requiring active deterrents and push back. Since Trump took office, Iran or its proxies have killed two American service members, a U.S. contractor, has severely injured more than 100 U.S. troops, damaged Saudi oil facilities and disabled commercial ships transiting the gulf. Your response to him, Sir.

POMPEO: Was only right about one thing there. He's right that five years ago Iran was a bad actor they've been a bad actor for 40 years. The sad state is that the previous administration chose appeasement as the model to respond to them. They wrote them big checks, they took plane loads of cash, they give them the capacity to continue to grow their terror campaign.

President Trump took a completely different direction. He said you're not going to get a nuclear weapon and you're not going to get American taxpayer money and you're not going to conduct commerce around the world to build out your capacity to threaten via Hezbollah or Shia militias in Iraq.

We've taken serious bite out of the Islamic Republic of Iran's regime and their power will continue to do that.

MACCALLUM: Just a quick item with regard to the assassination or the killing - execution killing I should say over the weekend of the wrestler Navid Afkari which the president had requested clemency for him? Could the administration have done anything differently there A and B, what is the administration's doing to get Europe to be tougher on these human rights abuses along with us?

POMPEO: About that, I don't think there's much more we could do. The president spoke to the Iranian leadership publicly. We communicated them privately, asking them not to execute someone who had engaged in simple protests of Iranian policy in a way that we would expect every human being to have the right to do any place in the world.

We urge the Europeans to take these same kinds of threats to humans rights seriously and just now, 30 days, 32 days, the Iranians will be able to buy and sell weapons and we had urge the Europeans to join us in the effort to make sure that the arms embargo, the one that Vice President Biden and his team negotiated that expires in just, now a month.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

POMPEO: Iran now be able to buy and sell weapons. That's what the Iran nuclear deal put in place, that's the policy of the Obama-Biden administration. We are not going to do that. And we hope the Europeans will join us. I think everyone understands that Iran with more weapons is a bad thing for the world.

MACCALLUM: Yes. Are you getting anywhere with the Europeans?

POMPEO: You know, they agree with us that it's a bad idea. They are just so wedded to the nuclear deal that they can't find a way to help us make sure that those weapons don't flow to Iran in just 30 days. I'm confident though that the United States will be successful in one week, the snapback will have taken effect and Iran will once again be prohibited from trafficking arms.

MACCALLUM: So, with regard to the Taliban peace talks which you just returned from over the weekend, a lot of people look at that situation and they look at the Taliban trying to come to the table with the Afghanistan government. And they say why would they give up their safe harbor for terrorists, why would they, you know, agree to peace with the Afghan government. And once we've announced that our troops will eventually leave there, what impetus is there for them to abide by any of this agreement, Secretary?

POMPEO: So, Martha, it was a really momentous day. Three administrations have tried to create that moment where the Afghans sat across from each other at the table and began to have serious conversations about what the Afghan government ought to look like what reconciliation ought to look like. They have been finding themselves for 40 years and we have been there for 19.

It's time for peace. I think every Afghan recognizes that whether they're in the north or in the south, they're part of the Afghan coalition or part of the Taliban. They recognize that the military solution to this isn't at hand, that's been near stalemate for years now.

And so, we are hopeful. We are hopeful that there can be an accommodation and reconciliation that brings Afghanistan the opportunity to once again build up their economy, build that opportunity and protect the human's rights of every Afghan citizen.

It was a great day. It was truly historic to be there and watch these two parties that really had refused to sit in the same room together for two decades join in a conversation. It will be a rocky road, it will contentious for all the reasons, Martha, that you highlighted.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

POMPEO: But I'm confident that you have to take that first step towards peace so that we can ultimately get our forces out

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Let me just ask you. Because back in 2014 as a member of the House select intelligence committee, you argued against the drawdown of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. You said it had been a huge mistake in Iraq, and criticized President Obama for wanting to do it in Afghanistan. So why is it not a huge mistake now because we will not have access to the kind of intelligence on the ground that we have always needed there.

POMPEO: Martha, I'm confident that President Trump's twin missions, one, to get our folks back home, second, to make sure that we can continue to fight terror in Afghanistan and make sure it doesn't come to the homeland. We'll accomplish those. President Trump wants to do that.

There are fewer than 200 Al Qaeda left inside of Afghanistan. Times were different than they were six years ago or ten years ago. It's time that we can accomplish the mission of protecting the homeland with a much smaller footprint inside of Afghanistan and you see the same thing. We took down the caliphate in Syria and Iraq. It's time we can reduce our physical presence on the ground there and still perform the counterterrorism mission that keeps Americans safe.

MACCALLUM: So, Nancy Pelosi said this about the deals that have made between Bahrain and Israel for recognition and the UAE and Israel for the same recognition. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI, D-CA: We've been waiting for a very long time for the president's proposal for an Israeli Palestinian peace agreement that honored the two-state solution. It still hasn't come.

Good for him for having a distraction on a day when the numbers of people who are affected and the numbers of people who are dying from this virus only increases.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: She calls it good for him for having a distraction, that's what she refers to that deal as.

POMPEO: So cynical. It's a remarkable accomplishment. The administration and President Trump have set the conditions for peace in the Middle East. There is real progress that tomorrow we'll have the Israelis, the Bahamians, the Emiratis, all in Washington to sign agreements normalizing relationships amongst the countries. It's a great day.

You know, I remember Secretary Kerry saying that if the nuclear deal was abandoned that Israel would become more isolated when in fact just the opposite is now happening. They've joined hands and now they many more partners across the region.

Each of those countries, those Gulf states recognize that the sheer threat from the Islamic republic of Iran is very, very real and now they are working together building out security and economic relationships and real ties between these countries.

It will be truly stabilizing for the Middle East to see what happens tomorrow in Washington, D.C. I'm proud of what President Trump and his team have accomplished.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Well, will Saudi Arabia be on board in those deal do you think? How close is Saudi Arabia to being on board?

POMPEO: I am confident that there are many other countries that will follow what we see tomorrow. The timing is indeterminable. We'll see. I hope it soon.

MACCALLUM: All right. Last question before I let you go. I want to give an opportunity to respond to this personal blowback at you and Mrs. Pompeo over the resumption of the dinners that you hold at the State Department during COVID. And also, these e-mails about asking State Department employees to help with personal Christmas cards. Why -- why -- is that OK and why is that OK on both accounts?

POMPEO: Yes. Look, everything we've done was for the betterment of the State Department, it was lawful and appropriate. We'll continue to do that and we're going to continue hosting guests here at the State Department to have people have serious conversations about American foreign policy benefiting the people of the United States of America.

I'm proud of what we've done. The fact that they are picking on my wife who has done yeoman's work as a volunteer trying to make life better for every officer at the State Department, I find pathetic and sad. But we'll keep doing the right thing. We'll keep abiding the law. We'll keep doing everything that's proper. And we'll leave the State Department a better place than we found it when our time -- our time here is done.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Well, some of the pushback on the dinners is that, nobody is wearing a mask there. President Trump gets the same kind of pushed back for the rallies. Just a quick thought on that before we go?

POMPEO: We will comply with every instruction from the State Department and medical team. We'll be safe and we'll have a great set of meetings and conversations.

MACCALLUM: Secretary Pompeo, thank you very much.

POMPEO: Thank you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Good to see you, sir.

POMPEO: Have a good evening, ma'am.

MACCALLUM: You too, thank you very much.

So, are Democrats starting to question the Biden campaign strategy and at this point, which side is running the better overall campaign?

Karl Rove and Donna Brazile, both veterans will weigh in on that coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: Fifty days, 50, until the election, Joe Biden heads to Florida tomorrow for a veteran's event. It's the first time in nearly a week that he has left his home state of Delaware for a campaign event.

In a new op-ed today Victor Davis Hanson writes this. Biden will stay sequestered, visit a key state occasionally, popped out of the plane and say he is barnstorming Michigan or Wisconsin and then fly back into hid -- into his Biden bunker for more Zoom puff interviews and hope progressive polls that he show that he can endure weekly bleeding until November 3rd.

So that from Victor Davis Hanson. Here now, Karl Rove, former deputy chief of staff under President George W. Bush, and former DNC chairwoman Donna Brazile. Both are Fox News contributors.

Good to have both of you with us today. So, with Victor Davis Hanson's words in there, Donna, you know, obviously, Vice President Biden, the former vice president spends about 90 percent of his time in Wilmington, Delaware. And it's interesting to me that Kamala Harris goes all across the country. So why does he stay there and she goes all across the country?

DONNA BRAZILE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, first of all, the vice president is traveling, as you just mentioned to Florida. He is conducting the campaign base on the science and what, I believe, that some of his medical experts are telling him.

But here's what I do know. I can tell you on each and every given day the voters in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan, Pennsylvania, all across the country, they are not only hearing from the vice president, and perhaps they are hearing from the vice president's on Zoom and all of these virtual meeting rooms across the country.

But they are hearing him on radio and they are hearing the vice president with the local TV interviews that he's doing. He's going directly where people live, where they work, where they play, and where they play.

MACCALLUM: All right.

BRAZILE: So, if that's enough for him to win maybe that's the strategy that he should continue to focus on.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: I mean, the science is the same so I'm just not sure why she travels all across the country and he doesn't. He's going to Florida. I'll give you that. But why is it different for her than it is for him?

BRAZILE: Well, again, he's gone -- he's been to Pennsylvania. He went down to Texas for George Floyd's funeral. He's gone places where I'm sure his strategists have told him.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: All right. The pace is completely different. All right.

BRAZILE: But -- but, Martha, let's be clear. He's not following Donald Trump's, you know, plane across the country as he tried to reboot his campaign. This is a referendum on the President of the United States and I think Joe Biden is doing what it takes to get his message out to the voters. He needs to get out to the polls.

MACCALLUM: OK. Karl, the president has less money than Joe Biden. He is working hard running all across the country. Who do you think is running the better campaign at this point?

KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well let me say something, since Labor Day I think there have been three days in which the Biden campaign declared a lid which means that no news will be created that day. I find that really astonishing.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

ROVE: At one point earlier this year probably make good political for the former vice president to lay low in Wilmington, I think it's a mistake here in the last, you know, from Labor Day on for him to be sitting at home in Wilmington and hoping to -- it looks like he's hoping to sort of glide through to election and run out the clock and play prevent defensive in football or play four corners basketball.

I don't think the American people are going to like that. And at some point, I think it's going to add to the doubts of whether he's got the physical stamina and the strength to be the president of the United States. I think you put your finger on it.

Kamala Harris is running around the country. He's at home. They are claiming that it's the science that's keeping him at home. It isn't. It's that they don't want him out on the campaign trail because they know that it's going to be difficult for them to project an image of strength and vitality if he does that.

MACCALLUM: let's take a look at something here. This is the Monmouth poll on law and order and this issue has sort of slowly been percolating into these polls. In the beginning it looked like it wasn't having a major impact. Now you've got 65 percent of the country saying that they think it's a major problem.

We put up a poll a little while ago that showed in Minnesota and Wisconsin voters think that this law and order issue is a major problem. One of the interesting internals here, Donna, is that, it says that, you know, most of the lean Republican folks think it's a big problem. Not surprising, right?

However, non-Republicans who are black, 60 percent or another race or ethnicity, 66 percent feel this way that this is a major problem. So, when you look at Latino voters, you look at black voters, they are much stronger on being concerned about what's going on with law and order. How does that impact the Biden campaign?

BRAZILE: That impacts the country. I mean, I am a black woman who lives in Washington, D.C. when I'm not home in Louisiana, gun violence is violence. And whether it's politicized to split us apart or divide us, gun violence is violence. We're all concerned about violence whether it's rape or murder, robbery, looting. Violence is violence.

And that's why it's important that not only Joe Biden -- Joe Biden condemns it but Donald Trump and everybody else, because violence is violence and we need to put an end to the violence in the United States of America. We're tired of it. And I know we're tired of it because I live right here in the city and I hear people when you see children, when you hear adults

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: No, we are all tired of it.

BRAZILE: We're all tired of it.

MACCALLUM: I think the question is, you know, sticking up for these police departments in a strong way. Karl, I've been told we got to wrap but I want you to give me a quick thought if you would.

ROVE: Well, the Democratic convention passed without any support for the police or denunciation of violence. You know, it was only about 10 days ago after two weeks of advertising by outside groups hitting Biden for his lack of strength on this issue that he finally came out and issued a denunciation.

I thought it was smart on his part the president denounced the violence against the two police officers on Las Angeles on Saturday. It took him until Sunday for Biden to issue a statement but at least he issued finally a statement.

MACCALLUM: Well, these police chiefs are desperate for support, I think from either side at this point. So, we got to leave it there.

BRAZILE: And so are the communities. So are the communities.

MACCALLUM: Agreed.

BRAZILE: Communities that they serve.

MACCALLUM: Thank you, Donna. Thank you, Karl.

BRAZILE: Let's not split people, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Coming up next, Congressman Jim Jordan responds to fired FBI agent Peter Strzok's new claim that despite the Mueller findings, two years of investigation he says no, it's still a fact. Donald Trump is compromised by the Russians. He spoke out about it, now we're going to hear from Jim Jordan when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: Fired FBI agents Peter Strzok who was removed from Robert Mueller's Russia probe because of texts that he wrote now suggests that the whole Mueller team and the $32 million investigation that took two years actually got it wrong. They never do get to the bottom of it despite all of that and the cost of taxpayers that it entails.

Strzok now on the book tour of his new book, you know, a new book that he just released, insisted on Sunday that President Trump was in fact he is the only one fully aware compromised by Russians. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER STRZOK, FORMER FBI AGENT: Donald Trump is compromised by the Russians. And when I say that, I mean that they hold leverage over him that makes him incapable of placing the national interest, the national security ahead of his own.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Ohio Congressman Jim Jordan joins me now, ranking Republican on the House judiciary committee. So apparently, Peter Strzok has not been swayed by any of the reports, the investigation that was done by a whole group of attorneys, most of whom had given donations to Hillary Clinton's campaign. So, if they were going to able to find something my guess is that they would have tried their darndest --

REP. JIM JORDAN, R-OH: Right. Right.

MACCALLUM: -- to do just that. But somehow, they missed what Peter Strzok knows.

JORDAN: Yes. Nineteen lawyers, 40 FBI agents, 500 witnesses, 2,800 subpoenas, $30 million in two years and they found nothing. But Peter Strzok. Peter Strzok, the same guy who said didn't worry, Lisa, we'll stop him. The same guy who said I can hear smell the Trump supporters in Walmart.

Suddenly Peter Strzok has got this revelation that somehow the president. This is -- this is ridiculous and the American people understand it.

Plus, never forget, Martha. Peter Strzok was part of this effort to take down Michael Flynn between election day 2016, inauguration day 2017, 49 times, 38 separate people unmasked Michael Flynn's name and Peter Strzok was in that meeting where they were waiting there and set him up.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: But he said that was justified, Congressman. He said that's justified because he says Michael Flynn pled guilty.

JORDAN: Come on. Michael Flynn pled guilty because they were threatening his family, threatening his son. We know what -- we know Michael Flynn did nothing wrong. Why are 49 separate occasions? Why are six people at the Treasury Department unmasking Michael Flynn's name? We know why. Because Bill Priestap had the now infamous note where he said what's our goal to get into lie to get into say something, to get him fired, get him to resign so we can charge him with the crime.

They did all of that. Peter Strzok was part of that effort and now he can come back and try to spin all his. I think also interesting that Peter Strzok uses the word compromised. I mean, the guy who sent that number of text messages, I don't know if compromise is the word for him to be using about someone else. So, this is ridiculous. The American people understand what happened here.

MACCALLUM: All right. Let me play -- I want to play another piece from Meet the Press here on the issue of leverage. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STRZOK: I think when you take a look at the Trump financial enterprise, particularly its relation with Russian, with Russian moneys, and potentially those related to organized crime and other elements, that those interactions have placed him in a position where the Russians have leverage over him and are able to influence his actions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: And the follow-up to that should be, what specifically are you talking about?

JORDAN: Right. Right.

MACCALLUM: Where in the reports and why was this missed? What with the -- and the only specific thing that he came -- comes up with him in that interview is he's talks about the Trump tower and he says well, it's clear that he wanted to build this Trump tower.

So that's the reason why, you know, they've got him over a barrel. Now, you know, I mean. All I'm saying is that we, you know, we had a two-year investigation and what he says -- the link that he says that was there, he must think these investigators are awful --

JORDAN: Yes.

MACCALLUM: that they did a lousy, lousy job because they didn't find it but he did.

JORDAN: Well, not -- yes, not only did they, you know, may be awful, I think they were out to get the president from the get-go. They've nor erased their phones. I mean, Shazam. All of them. They all wiped their phones.

So, this is the group that went about trying to take down the president --

MACCALLUM: Unbelievable.

JORDAN: -- they found nothing but somehow Peter Strzok says, there is something there. And it's interesting he doesn't talk anything about the other side. Think about -- think about this, the compromise with the Biden family, with Hunter Biden, and all that issue. So, I just find this ridiculous and again, I think the American people see it for what it is.

MACCALLUM: So, what's going to happen with all these phones? You know, very quickly, what's going to happen with this phone investigation?

JORDAN: I couldn't tell you. Look, I assume Mr. Durham is looking at this issue as well because he's got broader jurisdiction, he's been out for a long time. Let's hope he looks at this concern as well. But, you know, the idea that this just happened, they all -- they did this is just -- I guess beyond belief. But that's the case.

MACCALLUM: Yes. They must have very, very complicated passwords that they can't remember.

JORDAN: Yes.

MACCALLUM: Jim Jordan, thank you very much. More of “The Story” after this. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: That is “The Story” of this Monday, September 14, 2020. But as you know the story continues, so we will see you right back here tomorrow night at seven. Have a great night, everybody. Tucker Carlson is up next.

END

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