Democrats pounce on possibility of a 'Trump shutdown'

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Democrats pounce on possibility of a 'Trump shutdown'

President Trump, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer have heated exchange over border wall funding, government shutdown; reaction and analysis on 'The Five.'

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," December 11, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino along with Morgan Ortagus, Juan Williams, Jesse Watters, and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5 o'clock in New York City, and this is "The Five."

Fireworks at a high-stakes Oval Office meeting, President Trump and top Democrats Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer clashing over border wall funding and avoiding a partial government shutdown in a heated face-off. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: And we have the easy one, the wall. That will be the one that will be the easiest of all. What do you think, Chuck? Maybe not?

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER, D-N.Y.: It's called funding the government, Mr. President.

REP. NANCY PELOSI, D-CALIF.: You have the White House. You have the Senate. You have the House of Representatives. The fact is you do not have the votes in the House.

TRUMP: Nancy, I do. And we need border security. Nancy. Nancy. We need border security. It's very simple.

PELOSI: Of course, we do.

TRUMP: When you look at these numbers of the effectiveness of our border security, when you look at the job that we're doing --

SCHUMER: You just said it is effective.

TRUMP: Can I tell you something?

SCHUMER: Yeah, you've just said it's effective.

TRUMP: Without a wall -- the last time, Chuck, you shut it down.

SCHUMER: No, no, no.

TRUMP: And then you --

SCHUMER: Twenty times. Twenty times.

TRUMP: I don't want to do what you did.

SCHUMER: Twenty times you were called for. I will shut down the government if I don't get my wall. None of us have said --

TRUMP: Do you want to know something?

SCHUMER: You've said it.

TRUMP: OK, you want to put that in mind --

SCHUMER: You've said it.

TRUMP: I'll take it. I am proud to shutdown the government for border security, Chuck. I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it. The last time you shut it down, it didn't work. I will take the mantle of shutting down. And I'm going to shut it down for border security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: Democrats pouncing on the president, saying he'd be proud to shutdown the government over the border wall, but he's refusing to back down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I don't mind having the issue of border security on my side. If we have to close down the country over border security, I'd actually like that in terms of an issue. I mean, Chuck's problem is that, you know, when the -- when we last closed down, that was his idea. And honestly, he got killed. And so, he doesn't want to own it and I said you know what, rather than us debating who's owning it, I'll take it. I'll take it. If we close down the country, I will take it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: OK. So, Jesse, the meeting was mostly show no matter what, right --

JESSE WATTERS, CO-HOST: That was all substance, Dana.

PERINO: But, interesting, both sides feel like it could not have gone better for them.

WATTERS: Well, yeah, I guess if you're Democrat, you say Trump now has taken full responsibility for the Trump shutdown. And if you're Trump, you look at that video and you think I just manhandled these two people on live television and they look like complete buffoons. If you just look at the body language there, he was cutting them off. He was holding pieces of paper. Nancy, Nancy, Nancy. Chuck sitting there like a weakling. Nancy's getting interrupted the whole time. It was an extraordinary physical performance. At the end of the day, though, if you take -- no, I mean, look, on a debate stage, he did the same thing with Hillary. But these are two weaker people and he, you know, basically tag teamed both of them until they looked like blithering idiots.

At the end of the day, though, he said I'm shutting this time for border security and I don't care if I take the heat. This is the last chance he's ever going to have to get the wall funding. It's either do-or-die. He's not going to get it in the next two years, and he may not get it in the next six. He has to go to the mattress on this. He has to own the issue. And if he doesn't get it, his supporters are going to show up in the general and say you know what? You had four years to build a wall and we didn't bring it together, what that's about?

PERINO: To that point, Greg, there was a NPR Marist poll today --

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Oh, I love it when you bring those up.

PERINO: There was a chart.

GUTFELD: A chart even.

PERINO: Yes.

GUTFELD: Tell me more about this said chart. Yes.

PERINO: When they asked Republicans should he compromise on the wall funding in order to avoid a shutdown, 65 percent of the Republican said do not compromise.

GUTFELD: Yeah, there you go.

PERINO: He's got that on his side. But then, of course, there was other parts of the poll that support the Democrats.

GUTFELD: Can you just pull up that picture again of the group -- of the group discussing this? You know, we're missing the biggest story here which is Pence who has been cryogenically frozen. Yes, he was actually -- you know, they talk about -- they should have a body language expert do that to Pence right now because there's absolutely nobody there. It's just pure animatronic --

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: You know, that's exactly what I would do because I'm going, you know what, staying out of this --

WATTERS: it's not the Pence shutdown.

GUTFELD: Yeah, I'm not involved. It's like -- I don't hang out with women who aren't my wife. I'm not getting involved. I'm staying out of trouble. But you know what the thing is, this encapsulates two things. One, why we hate tribal team sport politics because, believe it or not, there is a solution in front of them. You do this. I'll do that. We'll deal with DACA. You deal with the wall. There's a solution there, but they can't do it because even if they agree with what Trump is doing, they can't do it because it's Trump. They would agree -- that border security is important, but they can't admit it because then it would be Trump. And the challenge here is for Trump is that he's always choosing the long-term benefit that creates short-term public relations nightmares. This makes him look mean. The shutdown makes him look mean. But the long term win is enhanced border security, which is like national security, like law and order. He always take the long-term vision, but he gets, you know, reamed over this stuff.

PERINO: Actually, Juan, one of the things Pelosi said to the president is that you have majorities in the House and the Senate until, you know, next month. You have the presidency. You pass the $5 billion. You get it done. And apparently, today, now, there's talk on the Hill that the House Republicans might actually just try to pass that. And I thought, well, why didn't they just do that before?

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: I think that's what Nancy Pelosi was saying to him. And then he was coming back and saying we don't have the votes in the Senate where they need 60 --

PERINO: Right.

WILLIAMS: -- Dana. So he was missing the point totally that he could, in fact, establish the baseline from which negotiations take place by having a vote among the Republican majority in the House. But I think it indicates that, you know, White House legislative office doesn't necessarily think they have the votes in the House right now, and that became apparent, I think, you know, the president encouraged the hard-liners and the freedom caucus, basically, today, to say unless it's got my wall, 100 percent, the $5 billion, don't go along with it. This is -- and as you point out in that NPR poll. Apparently, a majority of the Trump party people say that's the case. I must say the rest of the poll was overwhelming in terms of American saying, hey, you know what --

PERINO: But if everyone -- right, but if everyone, Morgan, was posturing today -- this is the first meeting. It's the first one. I don't think all of them are going to be on television because you don't negotiate all your good stuff, you know, in front of the cameras. Maybe they will. I don't know. We'll see. What do you think -- where do you think it goes from here?

MORGAN ORTAGUS, CO-HOST: Well, I think the big winner today was Schumer's press secretary. I was a press secretary before, not as high- profile as you, but Schumer kept going over and over again the same points, trying to make the point that it was the Trump shutdown. And when he finally got the president to say, he had this like -- on his face, like he was so happy that he got it out there. But I actually love this press conference. And I think a lot of Americans did. And the reason one is because it was -- it was the thing that people liked about Bernie and about Trump, no matter what party you came from, it's this ultimate disrupting politics. You know, instead of everyone getting in front of the press conference, in front of the press, and pretending like they all get along and like each other, they all just sort of threw it out there. It was like WWE. It was nasty. It was disruptive. But I think that's actually good for politics. I think that's what our founders intended. They didn't intend for everyone to play nice --

WATTERS: The founders wanted a wall. I think that was in the Federalist - -

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS: Federalist 41.

GUTFELD: They've all said lock her up, but they didn't know what they meant.

WILLIAMS: And I must say if it was WWE or let's say a boxing match and you were scoring, the idea, as you've said, that he says, this -- yeah, I want a shutdown. I own it. I mean, nobody does that. Nobody --

GUTFELD: That's why he won.

WATTERS: Because he doesn't think shutting down the government is gonna cost that much pain to regular people. The Democrats and the media become hysterical when there's a shutdown because they have to make it look like the government is so important to everyone's life when it really isn't. Also, Juan, one more thing, $5 billion in a budget that's what? Almost $4 trillion? It's nothing. It's symbolic. And that is what this is about.

WILLIAMS: It seems to me that when he -- not only says it's going to be a Trump shutdown, but then admits Democrats want border security and have voted for border security, which is what he did, again he undoes his talking points, Jesse. And when he talks about, oh, well, you know, people with disease are coming through, terrorists are coming through, all of it proven wrong, and yet he's sitting there spouting. People are like --

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS: Homeland security has verified those things --

WILLIAMS: No, they're not --

WATTERS: I don't know what you're talking about.

WILLIAMS: State Department and Homeland Security said no evidence that any terrorists have come across that southern border. And the drugs --

WATTERS: There have been terrorist related people that have crossed the southern border. And Tijuana had says there are diseases down there with the caravan. I'm not demonizing it, Juan. That's just the fact.

WILLIAMS: I tell you what, we're not spreading disease. We're spreading falsehoods.

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS: Google, people --

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: The drugs that you often cite. And, again, he says drugs are coming through that southern border. And everybody says, no, in fact, most drugs come through legal ports of entry.

WATTERS: You would know, Juan, because you sound like you're high right now.

(LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: Yeah, right.

GUTFELD: But this always comes out of the argue. Bottomline, process versus chaos. And so, he sits there and he comes off as the mean dad. We're going to have this wall and I'm going to shut down -- that's how a dad acts. They're the kids and they're not taking the medicine. It always comes down to this. And last but not least, Chuck Schumer reminds me of a vintage penguin from the original Batman. Total Burgess Meredith. Just the way he looks.

WATTERS: Totally,

GUTFELD: Actually, it's a compliment.

PERINO: Josh Dawsey of the Washington Post reported that after the meeting, the public meeting, that apparently President Trump told them that in the new NAFTA, Mexico will play for the wall. It could still happen.

ORTAGUS: Well, I mean, listen, the markets need calming today. They're pretty volatile after this announcement, especially with the China terrorist. But it actually sort of goes together. I mean, I think this president has shown that he's willing to take political hits, right? He's willing to take the terrified to China. Take the I.P. fight to China and others. And so, I can see why Democrats are happy that he took it today. But, he's willing to take on the hard stuff.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: Schumer said he had a temper tantrum. I think that's what it looked like.

PERINO: All right. We're going to move on. Time has announced its 2018 person of the year. We'll tell you who got the spot and where President Trump finished, ahead on The Five.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS: More Mueller probe developments this week in the Manafort, Cohen, and Flynn cases. Today, Paul Manafort's legal team responding to Mueller's accusation that he lied to investigators. Plus, lawyers for Michael Flynn are expected to make sentencing recommendations. We could learn more about his cooperation with the special counsel as a result. Meanwhile, Alan Dershowitz, the lawyer, says there's a double standard at play when it comes to new developments in the Russian investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR EMERITUS: Let's assume when Bill Clinton was running for president, Paula Jones came up to him and said unless you pay me $130,000, I will reveal our affair. I guarantee you the New York Times, NBC, MSNBC, would be railing against any prosecutor who dared to suggest that this was a violation of campaign finance law. We need a single standard. If you wouldn't go after Bill Clinton, don't go after Donald Trump. If you're going after Donald --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: So, I mean, I guess the obvious thing is that -- it would have been during a campaign for campaign finance validation. But, Jesse, what we're experiencing today is Paul Manafort, apparently, seeking a delay in terms of trying to appeal for -- to the judge that he not get a longer sentence and contradicts the idea that Mueller is saying he lied.

WATTERS: I'm going to get to Manafort in a second. Permission to make an analogy, Greg.

GUTFELD: I thought the one yesterday was fantastic.

WATTERS: The Botox analogy?

GUTFELD: Yes. I thought that's fantastic.

WATTERS: I like to make another analogy. OK. So, the congressional slush fund that they use from taxpayers to pay off these sexual misconduct settlements, millions of dollars over decades. Hundreds of people. Are those ever reported as campaign expenditures? Do those ever get filed with the FEC? That's just about getting reelected. That's about silencing people so they can win reelection. It's the exact same thing.

WILLIAMS: Is it in the middle of a campaign?

WATTERS: Airtight. It's always in the middle of a campaign --

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS: I just want to say, I just feel like this entire Mueller prosecution is being done with malice. Look at what they're doing to people. Flynn, highly decorated guy, bankrupted him over -- something that people don't really think was a lie. Manafort, greedy guy but they're treating him like whitey bulger kicking down the doors at the dead of night putting him in solitary confinement. Papadopoulos, the guy's life is ruined. No one even knows who he is. And then, Carter Page who they initially spied on, he can't get another job. If you look at what happened to Scooter Libby and the other one during the Bush years, he went to prison and he wasn't even the one that revealed the identity of the CIA agent. Susan McDougal in the Clinton situation, she went to prison and she didn't even want to cooperate with Ken Starr. They're just ruining people's lives because they're criminalizing conduct that happens all the time in Washington, D.C. And then you look back and you think where's the collusion?

WILLIAMS: Does it hurt you to go that far afield --

WATTERS: I feel no pain, Juan.

WILLIAMS: -- to try to confuse the audience.

WATTERS: I think the audience hears me much clearly than they hear you.

WILLIAMS: I don't think so. I think people aren't as foolish as you might think. Morgan, let me just ask you, Michael Flynn, apparently, gave substantial assistance so he's not in Manafort situation. What can Manafort do to prove to the judge that, in fact, he didn't lie to the prosecutor?

ORTAGUS: Well, I'm sort of sad that you called on me first because I know how much Greg likes this topic. It's his favorite thing to talk about on Fox News.

GUTFELD: Yes.

ORTAGUS: So, it is very interesting how Mueller has treated Flynn versus how he's treated Manafort. You know, clearly -- and I think a lot of it is the fact that Flynn, you know, led the DIA and was a decorated general for so long, went into -- what Mueller said ultimately. I mean, all of this stuff is really difficult because it is all speculative. But Flynn has been the one that I've had my eye on the entire time because he was so intimately involved in the top of the campaign for a long time. And so, if he's cooperating that is -- I think if there were any collusion which, so far, I agree with Jesse, we haven't seen that, but if there were any collusion, I think Flynn would be the one to know about it.

WILLIAMS: But, in fact, again, it would appear that Mueller is treating Flynn with some regard, some respect given his military service.

PERINO: That's not the only reason.

WILLIAMS: Oh, go ahead.

ORTAGUS: Manafort has been a criminal for a long time.

PERINO: The sentencing memo about Flynn -- about three quarters of it is redacted, right? Nobody knows really why. The reason is because they asked for no jail time for Flynn is because he cooperated and was very helpful. We don't know how he was helpful. And I think that when he files his sentencing memo, he'll just say thank you for recommending no jail time. Thank you and then walk out. Why would he say anything else?

WILLIAMS: Right. But, at the moment, didn't you say he offered substantial assistance, right?

PERINO: Yes.

WILLIAMS: That's the key that that comes from --

PERINO: But you're saying that he was being lenient on -- Mueller that was being lenient on him because he was a decorated war veteran.

WILLIAMS: No, no. I think in addition to that. I think what he said in that memo --

PERINO: In addition to.

WILLIAMS: Yeah. This guy is a decorated war hero. And, of course, held very important positions in our government. Greg, you've been dying to --

GUTFELD: Yes, I want to respond to you saying accusing poor Jesse of going far afield. Going far afield is talking about Manafort and Cohen over and over again because no one can find the collusion. Look, I'm still waiting for the crimes that are committed by Donald Trump to somehow blossom from this orgy of accusations about other stuff. By the way, I did watch the Clinton affair, which is the ANE. And it makes me full dersh now. I'm a full Dershowitz because you realize these investigations are basically -- they're like computational A.I. Once they start, they gobble up everything. Ken Starr had a lot of convictions, including Susan McDougal. She went to jail because she refused to cooperate. And I watched that -- I didn't know -- in the '90s, I was, you know, I working in health magazine. I wasn't -- didn't know much about this.

PERINO: So did Judy Miller.

GUTFELD: Yes --

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: You realize that all this is, is a self-perpetuating machine that once you start it, it's up to itself to end. And you've just heard all these people --

WATTERS: Prison machine.

GUTFELD: It's a prison machine. And you look at like Flynn who served his country just get swallowed up. And I've said it on Friday or Thursday, the last time we had a show that I was on. You don't want to be in government.

WATTERS: Right.

GUTFELD: You don't want to be in government because if you win, you've got a target. If you lose, you lose. It's better to lose.

WILLIAMS: But don't switch the topic.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: Susan McDougal and Clinton. We're talking about Trump.

GUTFELD: Well, I guess you can't get history. I thought you were historian, Juan. Did you write about history? Forget history. Once they forget history, OK.

WILLIAMS: No, I didn't say that. I'm all for it. But I just think --

GUTFELD: I also defended a Democrat, Juan.

WILLIAMS: You did. All right --

GUTFELD: Try that.

WILLIAMS: Who was that, McDougal? Anyway, up next, is Time Magazine taking a shot at President Trump with its 2018 person of the year? Big news, stay tuned to The Five.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WATTERS: Time Magazine revealing its 2018 person of the year. The magazine announcing the guardians and the war on truth as this year's winner. The four covers featuring killed and imprisoned journalists including slain Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi, and the staff of the Capital Gazette Newspaper in Maryland. Time says these journalists helped expose the, quote, manipulation and the abuse of truth around the world. Meanwhile, President Trump was runner-up and special counsel Robert Mueller came in third. I'm going to go to the magazine guy, Greg Gutfeld. What do you make of this pick?

GUTFELD: Well, I think, this is their way of doing Trump without doing Trump.

WATTERS: Right.

GUTFELD: Right?

WATTERS: And giving it to themselves.

GUTFELD: Yeah. And the thing is it's -- we know that this is no testament to the state of media in America. Trump has reinvigorated media after eight years of them being Obama toast, as I like to say. He's actually made the media better. The media can't see it because they're incited. Every time Trump says fake news is the enemy of the people, they only hear news -- or they think it's the media. They deliberately eliminate that part of the equation because they feel guilty. I would have actually have made it about the intellectual leaders that we talk about who are challenging the anti-speech mob, the biggest threat really in speeches on campus and now it's moving into companies. People like Claire Leman, Jordan Peterson, Dave Ruben, Joe Rogan, Sam Harris, Gad Saad, Debra Soap, Bret Weinstein, Eric Weinstein, those are the people --

WATTERS: Are you having your own award show?

GUTFELD: Yes, I'm having -- they're the new warrior group. They're the people that are coming out and talking about controversial ideas and going against their own peer groups. That takes serious stones.

WATTERS: All right. Dana, you've seen these things before. Is Time Magazine person of the year -- is this a thing of the past? Does anybody care anymore?

PERINO: Well, all I know is we do this segment every single year --

WATTERS: Everybody does.

GUTFELD: Because it's fun.

PERINO: I have a feeling it's not irrelevant yet. It gives you something to talk about and we can reflect. I think that their choice is perfectly good. I don't think they'll ever give it to President Trump again.

WATTERS: Really?

PERINO: They gave it to him in 2016, and I don't think -- I mean, if he wins reelection, maybe they will do it again.

WATTERS: OK.

PERINO: But I think that they'll probably never do it again. And you look at some of the other people that were on the list. I mean, I'm sorry, but Dr. Christine Blasey Ford, the accuser in the Kavanaugh hearings, to me I'm like, really? That's going to be one of your picks? I thought that was pretty --

GUTFELD: I think because Trump is so overwhelming that they couldn't find anybody else.

PERINO: And then Putin is on the list? I mean, it doesn't mean -- it's somebody who's been influential. Putin --

WATTERS: Yeah. I mean, it's a stretch to not give it to Donald Trump every single year.

(LAUGHTER) GUTFELD: Even -- forever.

WATTERS: Yeah. In infinite, right, Juan?

WILLIAMS: I think we should stop this show. Trump forever, you know. But the reality is, I think, that there really is a problem. I mean, what the editor said was if you look -- not only Vladimir Putin, but you look at what's going on with the Saudis, right? And then you can bring it back to silicon valley, they're there so many lies, so much spin right now that people are -- you know, to phrase it, really took off this year, gas lighting, that people are confused. People don't know what is truth, and people are being told things with the intent to undermine --

GUTFELD: Fake news, finally you agree.

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS: Well, they should have given it to Hannity. He's the one exposing all these lies and propaganda.

WILLIAMS: I will stay away from that one.

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: OK. But I will say that -- I think the quote of the year is Giuliani's quote, truth is in truth, right? It's a lot like Kellyanne Conway saying alternative facts.

WATTERS: That was like an existential comment.

WILLIAMS: Right, right, right. But when there is so much assault on just simple facts and reporting, something's going on and I'm glad the Times said something here is wrong. And, you know what? People like Khashoggi murdered for telling the truth. They deserve to be on it.

WATTERS: All right. How about you?

ORTAGUS: Believe it or not, I'm actually inciting with Juan on this. I think that there's two different perspectives. There's the American media perspective where I think we see Acosta and others that showboat. And I think that makes all of us really irritated --

WATTERS: I'm surprised they didn't give it to Acosta.

ORTAGUS: I know. The American media. But if you look at the international media, the Washington Post reported in October that 43 journalists have been killed worldwide. There's been at least 153 journalists killed in Syria.

So I know a lot of the audience has been in the military and served overseas. I've served overseas in a civilian. And in these war zones, when I was in Iraq in 2007, when I've been in Afghanistan, there's really brave people, reporters that are in these war zones telling the story, reporting.

And so for me, I just want to step away from the American media, where I think there's a ton of faults --

GREG GUTFELD, HOST: Right.

ORTAGUS: -- that we document all the time on this show. And look at the brave international reporters like Marie Colvin. The movie "A Private War" is out, talking about how she was killed in Syria doing a job that nobody wanted.

GUTFELD: So if you use that -- OK, that's fair enough. If you use death, death in a career, as -- as the criteria, we should go down the list of what is the most dangerous jobs. What are the most dangerous jobs? Is it journalists? I don't know. I'm asking.

JESSE WATTERS, HOST: Police officers are pretty lethal -- under fire.

GUTFELD: I think we have some -- people in the military. Although it's gotten better. If you look at, like, accidents in -- with, like, machinery, it's in pretty incredible how many people die on the job.

WATTERS: The war on coal.

GUTFELD: Yes, I mean --

WATTERS: Dangerous out there. Why are you laughing, Greg?

GUTFELD: I don't know. That threw me off. I was actually being serious.

WATTERS: So was I. I know coal miners. It's a very dangerous job .

GUTFELD: OK, there you go. All right.

WATTERS: Were you on the short list for the TIME magazine.

DANA PERINO, HOST: Very short.

GUTFELD: Why does it have to be short? Why does it have to be short?

WATTERS: It's a phrase. It's just a phrase.

GUTFELD: You know what? I assume the worst of every phrase now. I'm learning that you meant something by that.

WATTERS: OK, we'll talk about some more phrases in the break.

All right. Are the Oscars going host-less? Some potential big changes following the Kevin Hart controversy. Up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUTFELD: Since Kevin Hart bailed from the Oscars, the awards show is desperately seeking new options, including going without a host at all.

Now, think about that. The Oscars looked around at all the possibilities in their own inoffensive, morally-pure industry, and they decided, "You know what? It's just not worth it. We're all jerks, clowns, sinners, bigots and pigs. And of course, we're petrified of the mob," meaning they're actually human.

And just as every human has a skill or talent, we all have a past or a life, one worth more than a tweet. But for some, a simple dignified apology will never be enough. The moral majority is now the mobbing morality, and forgiveness is viewed as an accessory to evil.

And the Oscars is responding the way everyone does now: to be so gun shy about the social media fallout that they just give up and give in. No one wants to share the risk. So nothing too edgy, and humans are just that in the face of unforgiving hordes.

So after decades of filling that hosting position, humans need not apply. So who then?

How about Deep Blue, the chess playing computer? It's cold, faceless and never told a joke offensive or otherwise ever, much like Seth Meyers.

Or how about a drone, something that can drop a crude joke from on high, then completely disappear? Like Michelle Wolf.

But whoever they pick will be hosting the show from under a rock or under the Rock. Unless, of course, they find someone with guts who's not afraid of courting scandal. Who could that be?

GRAPHIC: PHOTO OF DONALD TRUMP

(DRAMATIC MUSIC)

GUTFELD: That's my choice. But you know --

PERINO: I'll take the risk. Isn't that what he said?

GUTFELD: Yes, I'll take the risk. But people don't want to take the risk. So it's like even the -- the Oscars, to me, is like any business. They're like, "You know, we don't want any trouble." You know? And they step away, and then they just kind of --

PERINO: Talk about picking up your ball and going home.

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: Basically, that would mean that we wouldn't have to do a show about the Oscars to talk about movies we haven't watched.

GUTFELD: Right, that's true. Whenever we do a segment, we pretend that we actually watched -- no, we don't pretend. We don't pretend at all.

PERINO: I also remember it was just, like, two weeks ago that Joy Behar was frustrated about that Country Music Awards, because they didn't make it political.

GUTFELD: Right.

PERINO: So you can't have said anything offensive.

GUTFELD: It's the --

PERINO: You can say something political, as long as it's offensive to half the country.

GUTFELD: Exactly. That's the point I should've put in the monologue. Dammit!

WATTERS: I thought it was a very good monologue, one of your best, actually.

GUTFELD: Thank you.

WATTERS: I think you should probably take more days off to refresh yourself. Because coming off with monologues day after day after day, that's why you get the thin ones once in a while. But this one was good. This one was really good.

I don't really have much to add. I will say this. People in film and art in Hollywood, these are supposed to be the creative, edgy --

GUTFELD: Right.

WATTERS: -- people with expression and not afraid to take risks. And they're the most uptight squares ever.

They've ruined the Oscars. They did the same thing with the White House Correspondents' Dinner. It got too edgy for them. They blew it. And then they -- now there's a historian up there instead of a comedian.

PERINO: Now that --

WATTERS: Political correctness is literally ruining comedy. Has anybody ever said that before?

GUTFELD: I don't know.

WATTERS: I think I just coined that.

GUTFELD: I think you did.

Morgan, why don't they --

ORTAGUS: I'm glad you remembered my name.

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: Did you notice he looked down?

WATTERS: I looked down. I have a problem with names -- I have a problem with names on live television.

ORTAGUS: I'm on your show a lot.

GUTFELD: I know. That's right. That's right.

WATTERS: Even worse.

GUTFELD: And I do have a shrine in my office.

ORTAGUS: But I was on your show when the guy was like -- who was it? Remember? The lady -- he was like, "The lady at the other end of the camera."

WATTERS: Yes. He had (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

GUTFELD: But you are also on on "Special Report," too.

WATTERS: Thanks for bringing that up.

GUTFELD: You know, why not create a host? Pixar, hologram, the whole damn thing.

ORTAGUS: Well, there you go. I don't care about the Oscars. What I do care about, I want the Oscars to continue, because I love the fashion segment at the beginning. I watch the Oscars, because I'm so girly. Like, I love seeing the women coming out in gallons. I love the earrings and the fashion and the hair.

GUTFELD: Why does it have to be girls?

WATTERS: Yes, Greg likes watching the women come out, too.

GUTFELD: Yes.

ORTAGUS: No, I'm saying that I like watching the girls. Guy fashion is boring.

GUTFELD: So -- you're so cis-normative. Why can't the men wear the dresses?

ORTAGUS: I don't know what that cis-normative is.

PERINO: Oh, now you don't even know what that is.

ORTAGUS: Right. I'm done. Bye.

WATTERS: Gee whiz.

JUAN WILLIAMS, HOST: No, stay. Stay.

PERINO: Guess you can't host the Oscars.

ORTAGUS: Juan likes me.

WILLIAMS: Yes, I like you. You stick around.

GUTFELD: You know what bugs me? Is we're witnessing the death of forgiveness for mistakes. Like, I know you guys did this segment yesterday about the Heisman Trophy winner, about a tweet when he was 14.

PERINO: Right.

GUTFELD: And it's like Kevin Hart, you know, he already apologized, and then had to apologize again. Where are the comedians? Shouldn't they be - -

WILLIAMS: Well, I think Kevin Hart -- by the way, you said Kevin Hart bailed. I don't think Kevin Hart bailed on them. I think they were very reluctant to defend Kevin Hart.

GUTFELD: Yes, that's true.

WILLIAMS: So he said he's not going to feed the social media frenzy.

GUTFELD: But then he apologized again.

WILLIAMS: Well, he apologized. But you know, it wasn't a real apology in the sense -- I think it was sincere in the sense that he said he evolved.

GUTFELD: Right.

WILLIAMS: And lots of people have evolved on this question --

PERINO: Yes.

WILLIAMS: -- of homosexuality --

GUTFELD: Of course.

WILLIAMS: -- in public life.

GUTFELD: Obama.

WILLIAMS: Right. So what's the big deal here, once he said that?

GUTFELD: Yes.

WILLIAMS: But the way that the Twitter social media universe works is it's unending, and it is unforgiving.

GUTFELD: Right.

WILLIAMS: But I will say, in response to your idea that we give Max Headroom the job, I think that it would be interesting --

GUTFELD: Would that be the highest rated, though, ever?

WILLIAMS: Of course it would be. That's what I say, it would be. But you'd have to have, like, a computer graphics. And I suspect, to play to Morgan's theme, have the person dressed in unusual ways and say edgy things. Right?

GUTFELD: Yes.

WILLIAMS: We could go back. We could go back to, like, Redd Foxx and Mitch -- who is that great comedian? Mitch --

GUTFELD: Hedberg? He's dead.

WILLIAMS: Mitch Hedberg, yes.

GUTFELD: They're both -- holograms.

GUTFELD: That's what I said. That's right. You know how they -- in fact, we were at the Reagan Library the other day, our friend Bret Baier and Chris Wallace and I. And they have now Reagan as a hologram. Like you know how Michael Jackson is in Vegas?

GUTFELD: Yes, yes, yes.

GUTFELD: They've got Reagan as a hologram.

ORTAGUS: What about Howard Stern?

GUTFELD: That would be fun. No, but that's the exact opposite.

WATTERS: He'd never survive.

WILLIAMS: He can't do it.

ORTAGUS: If you listen to his radio show lately -- I listen to it all the time.

WATTERS: I listened to it today.

WILLIAMS: I thought you were so girly a minute to go.

ORTAGUS: I am. I like the fashion.

WILLIAMS: No, no, no.

WATTERS: Did you see the line-up --

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: Listening to Howard Stern go after women?

GUTFELD: We're now talking about "The Howard Stern Show."

ORTAGUS: You can be feminine and still like Howard Stern.

WILLIAMS: No, I'm sure, but I'm just thinking boy, you know, for a woman to hear this kind of talk.

PERINO: She's got a wide range of interests.

WILLIAMS: She does.

ORTAGUS: Trust me, I've heard sailors say a lot worse.

GUTFELD: I think we need to bring forgiveness back. We have to make forgiveness hip.

PERINO: My point was, like, three weeks ago we had Dan Crenshaw on "Saturday Night Live" --

GUTFELD: Right.

PERINO: -- and everyone said that's the model for how we should handle it.

GUTFELD: And then everybody forgot.

WILLIAMS: I have something to raise.

GUTFELD: Sure.

WILLIAMS: Today there was a case, right, in Texas. A guy attacked a woman right? And then the judge says 400 bucks, you know, and some community service. I'm like, that's outrageous. I don't think I'm a hard man, but goodness gracious.

GUTFELD: Yes.

WILLIAMS: That's --

PERINO: We're not talking about the same thing. That is -- he was accused of a crime, and he was prosecuted.

WILLIAMS: Well, forgiveness. He said -- I just think that's one where I would say, "You know what? Hanging judge time."

GUTFELD: Yes, but I mean, that's -- I'm talking about forgiving over a tweet. I think they're different.

WILLIAMS: OK.

GUTFELD: All right. NASA -- you remember them -- is on a new mission to prove to a basketball superstar that the moon landing actually happened. It didn't. We know. Total sham. Right, Lou?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ORTAGUS: An NBA superstar apparently isn't buying that America landed on the moon in 1969. Steph Curry says he doubts humans ever went there. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(AUDIO GAP)

GRAPHIC: Curry Doubts That Astronauts Landed on the Moon. Stephen Curry: "We ever been to the moon?" Hosts: "Nope." Curry: "They're gonna come get us. I don't think so, either. Sorry, I don't want to start conspiracies."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ORTAGUS: NASA is crying foul and inviting the Golden State Warrior guard to come see the evidence, including moon rocks, for himself.

So Greg, I think that I don't believe in it either. And --

GUTFELD: Really?

ORTAGUS: Really is just because I want to go to NASA and see the moon rocks.

GUTFELD: Ahh.

ORTAGUS: I want to go with Steph Curry.

GUTFELD: Well --

ORTAGUS: What about you? Do you believe it? Do you think we landed on the moon?

GUTFELD: Of course I do. And you, I'll tell you. This is -- I think this is -- people -- it's funny but it's sad, because it's going to be harder to convince anybody of anything with photographic evidence, because you can -- technology now, you can -- I can place Jesse in some kind of surveillance camera footage and falsely accuse him of a heinous crime, because that's where we are in technology.

PERINO: You better talk your selfie.

WILLIAMS: Yes, take the selfie.

GUTFELD: So -- and so what this means is that now real evidence, we can dispute real evidence. So we have, you know, real evidence of them landing on the moon. But you go, "You know what? Maybe those were actors, and maybe that was done on a soundstage." "Capricorn"? What is it called, "Capricorn One"? is that the movie with O.J. Simpson?

WATTERS: I don't know.

PERINO: Do we have the sound now? Yes. You want to play it?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPH CURRY, NBA STAR: Have we ever been to the moon?

VINCE CARTER, RADIO HOST: No.

KENT BAZENMORE, RADIO HOST: No.

CURRY: They're going to come get us. I don't think so, either. Sorry, I don't want to start any conspiracies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ORTAGUS: So what do you think, Dana?

PERINO: I believe that we went to the moon. I'm a patriot. I'm an American patriot.

GUTFELD: Are you saying he's not an American?

PERINO: No, I'm just saying that I am. I'm not saying anything about anybody else.

But I do know, you know, Rob O'Neill, our FOX News contributor, but also most important, because of shooting bin Laden. He has a story about when he was in Afghanistan, one night he had to -- he was trying to make friends with, or find common cause with an Afghan counterpart. So they take a walk at night.

And he was talking about, you know, "When you were a kid and I was a kid," and all these things happening. He said, "Of course, we were landing on the moon."

And his Afghan counterpart said something like, "You didn't land on the moon."

He was like, "Yes, we did."

And he goes, "No, look, the moon is this big."

That was -- you know, that was what he had to say.

WATTERS: Well, and it's made of cheese, too. Right?

ORTAGUS: But he's not --

GUTFELD: And it's flat. The moon is flat. Combining -- I'm combining two things.

WILLIAMS: It's like the other -- that's the other NBA conspiracy theory.

GUTFELD: Flat earth.

WILLIAMS: Which is Kyrie Irving says that it's a flat earth.

GUTFELD: Yes. I wish the earth was flat. Wouldn't that be great?

WILLIAMS: Yes, you could just roll along.

GUTFELD: You'd just go -- what would be beneath it? It would be awesome if you find -- you're at the edge. Talk about a coast.

WILLIAMS: You know -- you know, the idea that really strikes me here is Steph Curry is a good guy.

GUTFELD: Yes.

WILLIAMS: He went to Davidson. He's an educated man.

GUTFELD: Yes.

WILLIAMS: He did four years at Davidson.

WATTERS: I wouldn't call him a good guy. He refused to visit the White House with Trump as president.

WILLIAMS: Oh, yes.

WATTERS: If I were Donald Trump, I would retweet this moon landing conspiracy and go, "You know what? That's why I didn't want you."

WILLIAMS: But you know, there's so much of this around. I think there's more of it now. You know, there's still people --

GUTFELD: The Internet has made it easier.

WILLIAMS: -- saying 9/11 didn't happen. Right? There's Pizzagate. There's all kinds of conspiracies about bin Laden.

ORTAGUS: Or they say it was an American conspiracy, yes.

WILLIAMS: Right, going back to the guy. You're talking about people say bin Laden was dead before we got there.

WATTERS: Nine-eleven was an inside job.

GUTFELD: No, probably the worst example of this is when people look at real evidence and claim that it was created by actors, like Sandy Hook. You know, there are people who lost children.

WILLIAMS: Oh, God.

GUTFELD: They lost -- lost their family. And there are people saying, "That didn't happen."

PERINO: Right.

GUTFELD: I would punch that person in the face.

WATTERS: But there are acceptable conspiracy theories.

GUTFELD: Like? What --?

WATTERS: Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster.

GUTFELD: Yes, yes. The bottomless --

WATTERS: The Bermuda Triangle.

GUTFELD: What happened to that one?

WATTERS: I don't know.

GUTFELD: It disappeared.

WATTERS: Everyone keeps -- dying.

GUTFELD: The Bermuda Triangle went into the Bermuda Triangle.

WATTERS: Trilateral Commission.

GUTFELD: Yes. Council on Foreign Relations. The Bilderbergs. They're all in it together, you guys.

WATTERS: Right.

GUTFELD: The Bilderbergs. Is that what they're called? What about the Rothschilds?

WATTERS: Benghazi is not a conspiracy, Juan.

WILLIAMS: I wasn't going to say anything.

GUTFELD: They make cough syrup.

WATTERS: Don't say Benghazi.

WILLIAMS: I won't say Benghazi. I won't say it. I won't say Pizzagate. Right? I won't say QAnon. I won't say any of these things --

GUTFELD: You guys have as many --

WILLIAMS: -- that are crazy conspiracy theories on the right.

GUTFELD: You have more on the left. Believe me.

WILLIAMS: Oh, please. Please. But you know what? Now that we have Kyrie Irving and Steph Curry -- and I think they're both liberal Democrats -- you've got a point.

ORTAGUS: Well, we have just learned so much this segment. Thank you for watching. "One More Thing" is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PERINO: Time now for "One More Thing." Juan kicks us off.

WILLIAMS: Well, as you know, it's Christmas time in the city and time for a FOX News party. Big-time.

Take a look at these pictures from last night. If you look closely, you'll see the people who bring you FOX News. They put on their holiday finery and headed over to a fancy restaurant in midtown to celebrate Christmas and the Hanukah season.

They had -- or I should say we had an indoor snow machine and enough food to feed Rudolph and the rest of the reindeer. You know it's fun to see people you work with. You can see Steve Doocy, Brian Kilmeade, Ainsley Earhardt there.

Thanks to FOX and to all the cooks, the waiters, the technicians who made our holiday party a reason to blow the roof off last night. It was fun.

WATTERS: Wow. FOX called it a holiday party?

GUTFELD: Nice one.

WATTERS: Come on! That's, like, a layup.

PERINO: You go next, Jesse.

WATTERS: All right. So this basket-case public school teacher in California showed up to chemistry with scissors, started singing the national anthem and cutting students' hair.

Take a look at this crazy video right here. This woman, Margaret Gieszinger or something like that, she shows up scissors in hand and says it's haircut day, starts cutting during chemistry class. Everyone starts running out of the classroom. She's now facing criminal charges, including false imprisonment and battery.

PERINO: What?

WATTERS: Three and a half years if convicted. Now that's how you get fired from being a teacher. Everybody says, "You can't fire me. I'm a public school teacher." That's how you do it.

WILLIAMS: Was she -- Jesse, this is serious? She's a disturbed person?

WATTERS: She's very disturbed. And that's why they gave her the boot.

WILLIAMS: OK.

WATTERS: And I'm on "Hannity."

GUTFELD: Jesse, you are one unique individual.

WATTERS: Big show.

ORTAGUS: Merry Christmas.

GUTFELD: And Merry Christmas.

WATTERS: Happy Hanukah.

WILLIAMS: You know what they say down South, bless your heart.

PERINO: Bless your heart.

OK, well, bless these people's hearts. We have a star-spangled tribute coming out of Nashville today. So there were travelers -- I think we have the video, right? -- there we go. So travelers at Nashville's busy airport over the weekend stop[ed to sing "The Star-Spangled Banner," playing their respects to a plane full of children whose parents had died in combat.

Vacations for the Gold Star families were coordinated by the Gary Sinise Foundation's Snowball Express program. According to a press release, the foundation will host a five-day experience for almost -- well, 1,722 children of the fallen and their surviving parent or guardian. It's a great thing every year, and people in Nashville really stepped up.

ORTAGUS: Sweet.

PERINO: Greg.

GUTFELD: Geez. You know, I was away. I know what you're asking for. Right?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD (singing): Animals are great! Animals are great! Animals are great!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS: I knew it.

GUTFELD: I was in Texas. I was in Texas. That's all they talk about, "Animals are Great." And why not? Because they are great.

Check out these little -- this pair on a tree. This shows -- you know, you can sometimes find an unusual little friend, and then the friend -- you can just have fun all day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(DOG CHASING SQUIRREL AROUND TREE TRUNK)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: Chasing around the --

WATTERS: Oh.

GUTFELD: Look at that. You know, this reminds me a little bit of Juan and Jesse on "The Five." You know, they -- they maybe come from different tribes, you know, political tribes, but yet, they can have fun chasing each other around.

WATTERS: I'm the dog.

GUTFELD: And animals can do this.

PERINO: Yes, you just can't get around the tree.

GUTFELD: Yes, that's true. But you know what?

WATTERS: Oh, yes. Watch the end of the video. The dog has a nice meal.

GUTFELD: No, you know what?

PERINO: Juan keeps outsmarting you.

GUTFELD: They end up -- they end up actually getting married.

WATTERS: Dana, whose side are you on?

GUTFELD: They end up getting married and opening a tasteful bed-and- breakfast in Vermont. Happy ending. And that's why, ladies and gentlemen --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD (singing): Animals are great! Animals are great! Animals are great!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS: Oh, boy.

GUTFELD: That segment's so great.

PERINO: That's actually a very good squirrel to have around --

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: -- in your yard because then you can exercise the dog.

GUTFELD: Exactly.

PERINO: Most squirrels are too -- they're not very --

GUTFELD: They're lazy. Are you calling the squirrels lazy, Dana? 4

PERINO: A little bit. A little bit.

GUTFELD: Wow. Now I've heard everything.

WILLIAMS: I won't mention this to Rocky or Bullwinkle. I'll tell you that.

ORTAGUS: My little Shih Tzu chases squirrels, but he's partly blind and deaf. Anyway.

GUTFELD: Well, that's a nice story.

ORTAGUS: I know. But he's cute.

So my inspiration today is Irene O'Shea. She is a 100-year-old [SIC] Australian woman who became the oldest skydiver in the world. She actually started -- she celebrated her 100th birthday by skydiving for the first time.

GRAPHIC: 102-Year-Old Woman Becomes Oldest Skydiver in the World While Jumping for Charity

PERINO: Wow.

ORTAGUS: And she's taking the extreme leap of faith every year since.

So her daughter -- she does this for charity, not just for fun. Her daughter died of a motor neuron disease year ago, and so she does this. It's a perfect opportunity to raise awareness for the Motor Neuron Disease Association of South Australia.

I just think it's amazing that she jumped 14,000 feet with an instructor, about 136 miles per hour.

PERINO: Wow.

ORTAGUS: I haven't went skydiving yet, so if anyone from "FOX and Friends" are watching, please take me.

WILLIAMS: Wait a second, wait a second. George H. --

ORTAGUS: But you know, remember, my Grandma? Remember my granny that we talked about?

PERINO: Yes.

ORTAGUS: Bret Baier has a crush on her.

WILLIAMS: Oh, yes.

ORTAGUS: Granny -- Granny, for your next birthday, I think we need to go skydiving.

WILLIAMS: How old is Granny?

PERINO: Granny just turned 80.

WILLIAMS: Well, she's looking great, but let me just say --

GUTFELD: You're not allowed to say that, Juan.

WILLIAMS: George H.W. Bush and now this woman --

PERINO: They're braver than me. That's for sure.

WILLIAMS: I'm going to be, like, 65, shortly. I'm worried.

PERINO: I wouldn't do it.

WILLIAMS: No, I don't want to go.

PERINO: Set your DVRs, everyone. Never miss an episode of "The Five." Anyway, why would you? It's amazing. "Special Report" is up next.

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