This is a rush transcript from “The Story with Martha MacCallum" November 30, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Thank you, Bret. Good to see you
tonight. Good evening, everybody. I'm Martha MacCallum in New York, and
this is THE STORY.
So, as President Trump prepares to head to Georgia on Saturday to rally the
vote for the two Republicans who can make or break the GOP Senate majority,
he will have to thread the needle of his dissatisfaction with Governor Kemp
and the candidates who can cement his legacy.
As Victor Davis Hanson writes of the president today, he has a year or more
to decide whether he wishes to play kingmaker among would-be Republican
congressional and presidential candidates or run himself for a second term.
The two options are ultimately not mutually exclusive, he writes. As the
Trump team battles on in the Peach State, which Joe Biden won by some
13,000 votes.
In the win column today for the president side, a judge agreeing to freeze
voting machines in three counties and prevent them from being wiped and
reset of the data that is in them. And they have to make a point of that
because actually that happened back in 2017. There was a dispute, and
somebody wiped those machines clean.
So, there are also some ongoing small change investigations into
nonetheless worrisome charges of double voting, dead voters, multiple third
party groups accused of sending absentee ballots to incorrect addresses to
out-of-state voters, and also college students encouraged to commit the
felony of timely residency switches, all in Georgia.
Also, today, Rudy Giuliani was pressing the charge in Arizona, urging the
state to overturn Biden's win and select pro-Trump electors. Late today,
that state was certified by Governor Ducey.
So, what tone will the president set next at home and this week when he
goes to Georgia, where there just over five weeks away from yet another
vote. Between now and Saturday, will the president determine what role he
wants to play? Trump Campaign Senior Adviser Lara Trump joins us in moments
on all of that. But we begin tonight with Karl Rove, former Deputy Chief of
Staff to President George W. Bush and the National Finance Chairman for the
Georgia Battleground Fund, very involved in those races there. Also,
Constitutional Attorney Jonathan Turley. Both are Fox News Contributors and
Geraldo Rivera, Fox News Correspondent-at-Large.
GERALDO RIVERA, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT-AT-LARGE: Hi, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Hi, everybody. Great to have you with us tonight. The first
thing that I just want to note with regard to these election issues,
Jonathan Turley, is this quote by Georgia's Secretary of State, Brad
Raffensperger, which I think is actually pretty chilling when he names
these groups. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER, GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE: We have opened an
investigation into a group called America Votes, who is sending absentee
ballot applications to people at addresses where they have not lived since
1994. The new Georgia Project, who sent voter registration applications to
New York City and Operation New Voter Registration Georgia, who is telling
college students in Georgia that they can change their residency to Georgia
and then change it back after the election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, Jonathan Turley, I mean, who are these groups and who is
supporting them? And it doesn't really matter if the numbers are small.
This is what everybody from Bill Barr to Jimmy Carter said about the
potential fraud in mail-in-voting.
JONATHAN TURLEY, CONSTITUTIONAL ATTORNEY: Right, and it also just happens
to be a crime. And so, it's breathtaking that many of these groups are -
have this rallying cry to protect democracy and all votes should be
counted. And yet they are actively subverting the essence of democracy.
They're trying to bring in false votes, false voters. And you saw that with
The New York Times columnist saying people should move down to Georgia to
vote.
This is all just disconnected from the narrative. It is not disconnected
from the criminal code. This would be a matter of Georgia criminal law, and
it is clear that officials are prepared to prosecute people. And so, I'm
particularly worried about students who are being encouraged to take these
steps. They should not put themselves in this type of precarious position.
MACCALLUM: So, Karl, I mean, this is the kind of thing that people are
still talking about all across the country. They want to know who's backing
these groups, who's supporting this. And if we know about 250 votes, are
there thousands more that people don't know about? I mean, who - first of
all, who's behind these groups? Who pays for them?
KARL ROVE, FORMER BUSH 43 DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: Well, a lot of them are in
the sort of the galaxy of organizations that Stacey Abrams has her hand in.
And a lot of them are funded by the usual suspects on the Left.
But I think Professor Turley made an excellent point. This is a felony. And
if you don't think the Republicans are checking the 5135 new people who
voted, registered vote after the November 3rd election and before a week
ago last Friday, you're kidding yourself. They are absolutely checking
these registrations. People who came to the state of Georgia and are
registering to vote there and have no intention of becoming permanent
residents as required by state law are going to find themselves in a heap
of trouble if they continue.
MACCALLUM: So, Geraldo, what about the president's approach to all of this?
He went after Brian Kemp today, he called him the hapless governor of
Georgia. He doesn't understand why he doesn't use his emergency powers to
stop the process in Georgia. This is Ronna McDaniel, who's obviously faced
by some angry Republican voters in Georgia about this. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How are we going to give money and work when it's
already decided?
RONNA MCDANIEL, RNC CHAIRWOMAN: It's not decided, this is the key?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you know?
MCDANIEL: It's not decided. If you lose your faith and you don't vote, and
people walk away, that that will decide it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, what is the president going to do when he goes down to
Georgia? And what kind of impact will he have, do you think?
RIVERA: What she just said is exactly the issue, Martha, if people lose
faith in Georgia's electoral system and not show up, then they'll be
gifting the Democrats control of the United States Senate. The stakes are
so very high, they are astronomical.
As a person who has been accused of giving the president too much of the
benefit of the doubt. I can't imagine why the Republican senators are
rallying around the Georgia Republicans, the secretary of state and the
governor there and saying that the system in Georgia will work.
You've got to vote. Everything is at stake here. Rather than attacking the
system, not only in Georgia but nationwide undermines faith in the system,
discourages people. I think that the president is on the wrong course here.
I think he's got to take a real gut check between now and Saturday.
With all due respect, and you know, I love the guy, but enough is enough
now. Are you with your personal peeve at what has happened? You're hurt.
And I don't mean in any way to minimize. This is a profound blow to a very
proud man who lost by a combination of, what, 40,000 votes among three
different states here?
This is the job he has now is the head of the GOP. As the commander-in-
chief of the country, he's got to rally the voters in Georgia. Control of
the Senate is in the balance now. And if he allows his personal annoyance
with the secretary of state and then Governor Kemp to rule, then I think
it's going to be a devastating loss for the Republican.
MACCALLUM: I mean, Karl, how did these candidates Loeffler and Perdue, that
they thread this needle, they embrace the president, they say, please come
down here and support us? I mean, how does all of this work? This is a
pickle for Republicans in Georgia right now.
ROVE: It is a pickle. And look, the president is not going to change. He is
who he is. The question is going to be, how much emphasis does he put upon
the necessity for all of his supporters to turn out and vote? His legacy is
at stake. His agenda is at stake. The Democrats, if they control the
Senate, are going to be able to wipe out whatever he has done with ease.
And not only that, but he'll have not one but two bodies of the Congress,
the House and the Senate, both conducting hearings next year that are going
to be calling he and his administration figures up to Capitol Hill to
testify. Better to have just the House trying to do that, not having the
Senate on top of it.
But he's got to find his way of saying, it's important for you, my
supporters in Georgia, to get out to vote. It's the biggest issue facing
both of these campaigns. The Democrats are way out on the Left fringe. In a
normal election, this should be something that should happen. The
Republicans should win. But it's all going to depend upon the president and
what he says when he comes to the state on the 5th of December.
MACCALLUM: He's headed there this Saturday. Thank you very much. Great to
have all of you with us tonight. Thanks, gentlemen.
ROVE: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: Joining me now is Lara Trump, Trump Campaign Senior Adviser.
Lara, good to have you here tonight as well. So, what is the president
going to do on Saturday? Is he going to embrace these candidates and try to
encourage people to mail-in-vote? You've got that same situation again;
they can start voting two weeks early.
LARA TRUMP, TRUMP CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: Yes, well, listen, the president
is going down, Martha, because he wants people to vote in this election.
This is absolutely critical. I heard your previous guests talk about it.
The reality is, we cannot let the Democrats overtake these Senate seats.
We know that if Chuck Schumer has the majority in the Senate, they've been
very clear. They want to talk about turning D.C. and Puerto Rico into
states. They want to abolish the Electoral College. No Republican would
ever have a shot at winning the presidency again. They want to pack the
courts. It is vital that we keep these seats. So, the president is going
down.
And look, he's going to tell people, get out and vote for these candidates,
these Republican candidates. But he probably also is going to talk about
the massive fraud that we have seen all over the country that has largely
been ignored. By and large, we had hearings today in Arizona that showed
fraud. We are demanding for the fifth time that the secretary of state in
Georgia audit the signatures on all of the mail-in-ballots that we had come
in in Georgia for the presidential election.
MACCALLUM: But Lara, that's exactly the pickle that we just talked about,
because if you go and you talk about what you see is fraud in the election,
you heard that woman. They're saying, why should we even go out? This is
already decided. Why should we bother? So that sounds to me like a pretty
good cocktail for having a lot of Republican voters who support the
president stay home and then he's not going to get what he wants, which is
to have his legacy protected by these senators.
TRUMP: Well, look, I still think that the president will get four more
years in office. I think it'll be the next four years because this thing is
far from over.
MACCALLUM: Lara, you've just had certifications today in Arizona, in
Georgia, in Wisconsin. You heard Geraldo moments ago say, it's time to
accept the outcome of this. What are you seeing or hearing out there that
he is not?
TRUMP: Well, those certifications are just procedural steps, and the
reality is the Electoral College does not vote in their states until
December 14th. Congress doesn't actually certify anything until the
beginning of January. So, we've got plenty of time.
Sadly, we have become accustomed to having to work twice as hard, three
times as hard as a normal candidate or normal campaign. But we're prepared
for this and we're prepared for the fight. We believe that Donald Trump
legitimately won this election. He got 11 million more votes, Martha, in
this election than he did in 2016. I think people find it absolutely
ridiculous to think that Joe Biden--
MACCALLUM: Let me ask you this, Lara--
TRUMP: Who could barely get people out to his campaign events, could get 80
million votes.
MACCALLUM: I think a lot of people do have questions about that. But then
you look at what happened in the months prior to the election and you see
all of the legal changes that were made and I think 74 cases across the
country that changed the rules on signature matches, that changed the rules
on what could make it through the machine and not through the machine in an
effort to keep people who were disenfranchised from being able - allowing
them to vote.
So, I'm asking, where do you think that the Republican side of it was
behind the eight ball on that question with all of those cases that
happened across the country? And do you think that anything can change in
Georgia when you've already got mail-in-voting, it's all about to happen
all over again?
TRUMP: Yes, well, look, we do think that the result in Georgia is going to
change. And I think you're going to hear from the president on Saturday
that he wants people to get out and vote. But look, we from the beginning,
Martha, we're saying this mail-in - universal vote by mail that has never
been performed in this capacity in America should not happen 90 days out.
You cannot change an election process like the Democrats did.
They push forward and look, we fought back every step of the way and we had
some rulings, some judges that quite frankly, to be honest, I do not think
we're on our side, did not for whatever reason, like this president. But
this isn't just about this election.
People in America, even if you didn't vote for Donald Trump, need to know
that this election process we have in America is legitimate, that every
legal vote is counted and that there is no room for fraud. People say, oh,
well, it's not enough votes here, or there? The reality is, if you steal
$500 from a bank, it is still illegal if there is fraud--
MACCALLUM: That's why we just pointed out. A lot of these groups that are
getting out there trying to help people vote who don't live in the state,
that's a big problem. I agree with you. Whether or not it's a big enough to
overturn the vote, as you say, is being decided day0by-day here. Lara,
thank you very much. Lara Trump, good to have you here tonight.
TRUMP: You've got it.
MACCALLUM: So, extra points for diversity. Biden's women in the West Wing
getting a lot of praise, but many of them will take over the desks of the
women who worked there before them for President Trump. Dana Perino on the
weird way that we keep score on hiring of women in America. Also, Senator
Tom Cotton on Neera Tanden's new job and the fear of a new Iran deal in a
vastly different Iran situation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: So, moments ago, this story breaking that Dr. Scott Atlas,
President Trump's special adviser on the pandemic has resigned his post. He
joined the administration in August with a designated 130-day term, which
will expire this week. He was sometimes criticized for his push to reopen
businesses and schools in the United States. He called the lockdowns
extremely harmful. And in his resignation letter obtained by Fox News, he
writes this. My advice was always focused on minimizing all the harms from
both the pandemic and the structural policies themselves, especially to the
working class and the poor.
Dr. Atlas will be on Tucker's show tonight for his first interview since
his resignation. So, watch for that next hour coming up.
So, when Joe Biden rolled out his choices for his White House
communications team, the press went wild for the all women lineup,
heralding his commitment to big roles for women.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And all female communications team, senior
communications team, this is a first history making.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are six moms of young kids on that team. So, I
think that's something that a lot of working women are focused on. It's
pretty cool.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: I was talking to a Democrat who just
said this also felt like The Avengers. It felt like we're being rescued
from this craziness that we've all lived through from the last four years.
And now here are the superheroes to come and save us all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: OK, so except for one thing, it's hardly unprecedented. All of
these women worked on the Trump communications team. Many of them are
mothers, including Sarah Sanders, Mercedes Schlapp, Kayleigh McEnany.
Joining me now, Dana Perino, host of the Daily Briefing, co-host of The
Five, and former White House Press Secretary under President George W.
Bush.
And a woman if you haven't noticed.
DANA PERINO, HOST, THE DAILY BRIEFING: I have no children though. I didn't
have children. I just had the dog, and Peter helped me take care of them.
MACCALLUM: Why is there such a double - why do these same individuals never
say anything about all of the women that worked on the Trump team?
PERINO: I mean, this. I mean, it's a story that's told over and over again.
I think one thing that the Biden team did, and it's smart, right? They
packaged it in a way that says we're going to announce this all at once.
We're going to make it a big deal. And they announce it on a Sunday night.
And so that's what we talked about on Monday.
So, look, from a PR standpoint, are they strategic? Are they good at
executing a plan? Absolutely. But they're also not the first women to do
all of these things. Here's I think it was some good news. If you're a
woman and you care about women's empowerment and I'm excited that all of
these women have these great jobs, including the ones in the Trump
administration that have done a great job. Jen Psaki will be the fifth
woman to be White House Press Secretary. So, I feel like that glass ceiling
has been firmly broken.
MACCALLUM: Absolutely. Absolutely. I guess what my issue with it is that I
feel like these women are all very accomplished. But the headline is, isn't
it amazing that they're all women? And as a woman, I would much rather just
the choice be made.
PERINO: Yes.
MACCALLUM: No talk about it at all. I mean, these are all the people we
pick because they're so well-qualified and so fantastic and just let that
be. I'm still waiting for us to get to that point.
PERINO: I remember when President Obama was in the process of needing a new
press secretary and the chief of staff at the time let it be known that he
wanted to make sure it was a woman that was in the job. And I remember
saying, why not just say we're looking for the best person, name her, and
then she'll never wonder--
MACCALLUM: Exactly.
PERINO: The best person for the job.
MACCALLUM: That she was only competing against 50 percent of those who
applied.
PERINO: But women are doing well everywhere. And D.C. is a great place for
women to advance. But I also would say that TJ Ducklo who was Biden's press
secretary, who did that job on the campaign with stage four lung cancer.
MACCALLUM: Yes, he did.
PERINO: And getting those treatments, he's amazing. And Michael La Rosa
worked for Dr. Jill Biden again. Again, they didn't do a ton of press work
that you saw because the campaign was very much just holding back, letting
President Trump take the lead. But those men did a really good job. And I
think that when the team all comes together, there won't be just women that
are advising, but these women, especially Jen Psaki, who has a lot of
experience. She'll have the president's ear and she know a lot of the
reporters, so I assume that she'll--
MACCALLUM: The men will be saying that it's not fair. There's no
representation in the country. So, Neera Tanden, obviously a very bold pick
to head the OMB. She's a very controversial person. What do you think? Do
you think she's going to get through?
PERINO: I think it's a curious pick. Neera Tanden is well-known. She has
been controversial. She is not afraid to get in the ring and to fight. And
that's why you saw all these tweets of hers of the past come out. She
really tangled with Bernie Sanders. Also, there are a lot of women who
think that she outed somebody who had claimed sexual harassment at American
Progress, and she was really tackled for that.
So, I think that this is one of those things where Joe Biden doesn't have
the luxury of all the Democrats being on the same page. President Trump did
when you think of how controversial Betsy DeVos' nomination was and
Republicans were firmly behind him, I don't think he'll necessarily have
that with Neera Tanden.
I could see this one being super controversial and maybe even one of those
the red herrings where if it doesn't work out, they could say, well, we
wanted Bruce Reed, but the squad said no. We tried Neera, it didn't work
out.
MACCALLUM: I said, yes, there's like a sacrificial lamb sometimes chosen
to--
PERINO: That's quite cynical, but it is Washington D.C.
MACCALLUM: Maybe it's not at all. Yes. Everybody is a sacrificial lamb down
there. All right. Thank you, Dana. Great to have you here tonight.
PERINO: Good to see you.
MACCALLUM: Good to see you too.
PERINO: You bet.
MACCALLUM: So, for more on all this and also on Iran as well tonight, let's
bring in Senator Tom Cotton, Republican of Arkansas, who serves on the
Intelligence Committee and Armed Services Committee and is in Iraq and
Afghanistan war veteran who served two tours. Just first up top here,
Senator, if you would, your thoughts on Neera Tanden's selection at OMB.
This is her retweet back in 2017. The president talked about the fact that
he felt that the election was legitimate, and she said, why does he lie
about this?
He knows people have intuitive sense. Russians did damage to affect more
than 70,000 votes in key states. It was a line of discussion that she
never, ever dropped, despite the fact that this was debunked by a three-
year Mueller investigation.
SEN. TOM COTTON (R-AR): Yes, Martha, I think Neera Tanden's nomination,
like so many of the nominations that Joe Biden has already made, show that
he is not committed to unifying the country, he's not committed to
governing from the center, as he said so much.
I mean, look, his DHS nominee, Alejandro Mayorkas, is an open borders
advocate who was intervening on behalf of rich Democrats to sell
citizenship to American. Now, Neera Tanden has said, Congress should not
pass another Coronavirus relief package unless we're willing to give checks
to illegal immigrants.
If she were the Head of the Office of Management and Budget, she'd probably
cook up some nonsense numbers to suggest that an amnesty or sanctuary
cities would somehow reduce the federal deficit. She has so far to the Left
that it gives the lie to Joe Biden's promises during the campaign trail to
be governing from the center.
MACCALLUM: Well, we'll see what happens in the confirmation process. I do
want to ask you about Iran. Interesting piece today by Tom Friedman in The
New York Times, essentially saying to the incoming president, Joe Biden,
this is not the Middle East that you left four years ago. And he says that
when Iran sent over 20 drones and precision guided missiles to the Saudi
Arabian oil fields, it was a huge game changer and that the Middle East has
scrambled in a completely different way that he needs to be very aware of.
It pushed Israel and the UAE and Bahrain into agreements and recognition of
each other and the future for doing trade as well. There has been a
complete reorganization under President Trump's work.
COTTON: Yes, Iran is definitely on the back foot now, Martha. I mean, look,
it's been a bad year for terrorist masterminds in Iran. First, Qasem
Soleimani was killed by an American strike back in January. And now the
father of Iran's nuclear weapons program, Mohsen Fakhrizadeh came to an
untimely death last week. So, if you're working at the higher reaches of
the Iranian governments or their military or their terrorist organization,
the Revolutionary Guard Corps, I think you probably want to be walking
under any ladders any time soon.
But this goes to show how far Iran is willing to go to violate the nuclear
deal that they signed back in 2015, a deal that I said would not survive if
the Republican president was elected and it didn't. And I'll say it again
to the ayatollah. I'll say it to any Western CEO who wants to rush into
Iran to do business, that this deal, if it's not ratified by the United
States Senate in the future, and it includes things like missiles, as Tom
Friedman writes about their support for terrorism or armed drones or their
oppression of their own people will not survive in the long-term.
MACCALLUM: Do you think that the Biden administration lifts the sanctions
against Iran or what do you think the bar is for lifting those sanctions?
COTTON: Well, I just can't imagine that the Biden administration, for
instance, would lift sanctions against the Iranian Revolutionary Guard
Corps. The Trump administration imposed those sanctions, the IRGC is
responsible for the deaths of hundreds of American soldiers in Iraq and
Afghanistan. And I'm sure that the Iranian leadership would demand that
those sanctions be lifted. The IRGC has its tentacles throughout the
Iranian economy. That's why so many ayatollahs are also multi-billionaires.
Is the Biden administration really going to lift sanctions against the
shock troops of Iran's terror regime? Are they really going to send
hundreds of billions of dollars back to the ayatollahs? Are they really
going to go back into a deal that doesn't touch on any of Iran's activity
besides its nuclear arsenal, some of which is already starting to sunset
because the deadlines in that nuclear deal five years ago were so short,
but that's what it would take to reenter this nuclear deal. That's why it
would be so shortsighted and so dangerous.
MACCALLUM: There's an op ed in The Wall Street Journal that says the
Obamacrats is siding with Iran against Israel and the United States, though
neither have claimed responsibility for the killing of this nuclear
scientist, which you mentioned. The Obamacrats continuing illusions, the
Journal editorial page writes about their Iranian diplomacy, shows that
they've learned nothing in exile.
Yet if Israel did plan the assassination, it surely did so because it fears
that the same illusions about Iran are returning to U.S. power with the
Biden administration. And so, it must act on its own. Last thought on that,
Senator?
COTTON: Yes, I mean, I can't comment on Mohsen Fakhrizadeh's death. I'd
just say, it's pretty dangerous time to be a senior leader in Iran's
military. But unfortunately, the Obama administration in the past and with
Joe Biden's full support, a lot of people he's nominated did actually want
to rearrange our alliance structure in the Middle East. And they were more
sympathetic to Iran than they were to Israel or some of our longtime Arab
partners as well. We've made tremendous strides. We've seen multiple peace
deal signed in the last few months. I hope that Joe Biden doesn't want to
unravel all of that.
MACCALLUM: What do you think about the weaponry that was used in that
assassination? According to the reports, it was a remote-controlled machine
gun.
COTTON: Well, you don't want to be on the business end of a remote-control
machine gun, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Incredible, incredible story. Thank you very much. We'll learn
more about it. Senator Cotton, good to see you tonight.
So, Dr. Fauci making headlines over the weekend, saying that he does think
now that it is safe to send the kids back to school.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS TASK FORCE: If you look at the
data, the spread among children and from children is not really very big at
all, not like one would have suspected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Senator Rand Paul went head-to-head with Dr. Fauci on that very
issue a couple of months back. And he joins me next with his thoughts
tonight after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): All of this body of evidence about schools around
the world shows there is no surge. All of the evidence shows it's rare. But
I hear nothing of that coming from you. All I hear, Dr. Fauci is we can't
do this, we can't do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAUCI: Close the bars and keep the schools open is what we really say.
Obviously, you don't have one size fits all. If you look at the data, the
spread among children and from children is not really very big at all. Not
like one would have suspected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM (on camera): OK, so it's been a bit of a yo-yo for the families
as authorities shut down the schools in New York before Thanksgiving based
on the increased number of cases, it went up to 3 percent. But they
disregarded that data and on in school transmission which is very low. So,
my next guest has repeatedly pressed the doctor on the science of this
shutdown for months.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL: Dr. Fauci, every day, virtually every day we seem to hear from you,
things we can't do. But when you are asked can we go back to school, I
don't hear much certitude at all like, well maybe it depends. All of this
body of evidence about schools around the world shows there no surge.
FAUCI: I feel very strongly we need to do whatever we can to get the
children back to school.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM (on camera): OK, so joining me now Senator Rand Paul of
Kentucky. Senator, good to have you back tonight. So now, it's close the
bars, open the schools. You know, I don't know how parents and families
across the country are supposed to navigate all of this.
It's like, OK, now you have got to find somebody to help you at home stay
home or leave your job. And then the next week we're going to reopen them
even though the infection rate has actually gone up during that time period
in New York. Can you explain what's going on here?
PAUL: Will here's the interesting thing. You know, when I tried to get Dr.
Fauci to look at the data six months ago on children, the data from Europe
where they were keeping schools open and they did not have surges, he was
unwilling to look at it. He was so overly cautious that he wanted to keep
schools closed.
Now he says, well, we can open some schools, but not other schools, but
really what we have to do is close bars. Really what we should do with Dr.
Fauci is sit him down and show him the evidence on lockdowns. When you look
at lockdowns and mandates whether they're masks or how many people go to a
restaurant or how many people can gather and you look at when the mandates
were instituted around the world, country after country, guess what? The
virus rises exponentially after the mandates.
Right now, we have more mandates in place than we have ever had. We have
more mask-wearing than we have ever had.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
PAUL: And yet the incidence of the disease is exploding. Really maybe
showing us that what we're doing is not working.
MACCALLUM: What we're doing is not working, yes.
PAUL: We ought to be open-minded.
MACCALLUM: And you know what? And that brings me to this. This is a
flashback soundbite on the issue of masks from Dr. Fauci and this is March
8th. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAUCI: Right now, people should not be worried. There is no reason to be
walking around with a mask. When you are in the middle of an outbreak,
wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even
block a droplet, but it's not providing the perfect protection that people
think that it is. And often, there are unintended consequences. People keep
fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM (on camera): That totally changed.
PAUL: Well, you know --
MACCALLUM: That completely changed.
PAUL: You know, the New England Journal of Medicine in the summer said
that masks were a talisman and they could help with generalized anxiety but
didn't work outside of the hospital setting.
What I would say to people because I don't want people to think that they
don't work at all.
MACCALLUM: Right.
PAUL: What I would say to high risk people yes, they work, the N95 masks
work. The surgical masks are about 50 percent effective in blocking virus
sized particles and the cloth mask block about 3 percent of virus
particles. So, we ought to let this be out there. But if you say things
like this immediately big tech censors you insist, you can't say that, and
I was like, shouldn't we have a debate and a discussion? Shouldn't we look
at the evidence?
The evidence is in now on lockdown. It's been in for schools for six
months. We finally have Dr. Fauci looking at the evidence. Closing schools
is not necessary. Now we need to look at the lockdown evidence and we need
to target our approach to those who are vulnerable and try extra hard for
those who are vulnerable. But we shouldn't punish all the people across the
country, particularly those who are not vulnerable to this virus.
MACCALLUM: And these businesses, you know, open closed, I mean, you've got
like a third of the businesses across the country that are probably never
going to get those stores and shops and bars and restaurants reopened. And
this is the guidance and now the Supreme Court decision on religious
gatherings has thrown a wrench into what the guidance is from these state
leaders.
The governor of New Jersey today said that new rules, so for outdoor
gatherings you've got to go to a maximum of 25 people. And they are
canceling all the winter indoor sports and basketball and that kind of
thing. Maybe that makes sense. But then he says there is the exception to
the 25 people rule with religious, political activities, both of those are
included. Funerals, memorial services and wedding ceremonies. There is no
25 percent limit on those.
PAUL: I wonder if there will be exception --
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: And go figure that out.
PAUL: Do you think there will be an exception for the inauguration? So the
thing is we need to look at the evidence.
MACCALLUM: Good question.
PAUL: Dr. Fauci it took him six months to agree with us that schools
should open. My governor just this week is closing down the schools. So, we
took it to the sixth circuit and we won at the district level. Lost at the
sixth circuit. Now we are going to the Supreme Court with it. But he is
mandating that private religious schools can't open. Even though Dr. Fauci
and the so-called experts have finally come to agree that the schools
should open.
Our governor, Democrat governor of Kentucky is closing them all down by
fiat with no consultation of the legislature or anyone else. So really, we
should look at the evidence.
But the most important thing about this is science is about disputation.
The same way politics is. You present your evidence on both sides and we
should hear out both sides.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
PAUL: What we are living in is a world where we censor people like myself
who have contrary ideas but who look at the evidence every day. Right now
New York is having virtually zero deaths. And you have to say is that
because they are washing their hands better or might it have something to
do with the degree of immunity that their vulnerable population got?
A lot of them died. But those who didn't die in the nursing homes a lot of
them have antibodies now? Could it be that the immunity among the
vulnerable in New York is at such a state that their deaths have gone way
down because their vulnerable people actually have a degree of immunity.
But nobody wants to talk about that. You put that on Twitter and they flag
you like you're somehow denying science when all we want to do is debate
the science.
MACCALLUM: Yes. I know Dr. Fauci has debated you on that issue of immunity
as well. And it's probably something that we're not going to get a good
handle. I don't think for some time when we get a real grasp of how many
people --
(CROSSTALK)
PAUL: But the intriguing --
MACCALLUM: -- actually have the antibodies and how long they work for.
PAUL: But intriguingly, one of the things I told Dr. Fauci the last time
he came to our committee was one of the reasons that children are
asymptomatic is that I think they've been infected with coronavirus colds.
And he disputed that. He went out of his way to say it wasn't true.
MACCALLUM: All right.
PAUL: But now the NIH does say it's true.
MACCALLUM: For some people, yes.
PAUL: Forty-three percent of kids have antibodies and T-cells to
coronavirus that are effective against COVID because they have had previous
infection with colds --
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: There's so much --
PAUL: -- it also may explain why adults like myself didn't get many
symptoms that maybe I had previous coronavirus colds that allowed me to
have some level of immunity.
MACCALLUM: Senator, thank you, and Dr. Rand Paul, good to have you here
tonight.
PAUL: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: Thank you. So, coming up, Michigan Gretchen Whitmer among the
many names in the running for Time magazine's person of the year this year.
Charlie LeDuff is from Michigan and has some thoughts on who he thinks
should win this year when he joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: For nearly a century the editors of Time magazine have been
naming a person of the year, highlighting a person, a group or an idea
sometimes that, quote, "for better or worse has done the most to influence
the events of the year."
Twenty-twenty has been unprecedented time with so many people stepping up
to an influential role. Some of the 80 nominees this year include President
Trump, President-elect Joe Biden. Dr. Anthony Fauci who got a lot of
support in the poll that they did but it's the editors who pick it.
Governors Cuomo and Gretchen Whitmer. Stacey Abrams. Black Lives Matter
activists, healthcare workers and even Prince Harry and Megan Markle. I'm
not sure they had a huge influence on the entire world over the course of
the last year. That decision is going to be made on December 10th.
Joining me now Charlie LeDuff, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and host
of the No B.S. news hour podcast which is exciting. Hi, Charlie.
CHARLIE LEDUFF, AUTHOR, SH*TSHOW: Hi. How are you doing, Martha?
MACCALLUM: I'm doing great. So, who do you think it should this year?
LEDUFF: Well, the way it usually works, it should be Trump. I mean, that's
the guy that influenced news all around the world every day. I mean, he was
on trial for high crimes and misdemeanors. He caught COVID. He called the
election a fraud.
But since we're not going to have the guts to do that absolutely it should
be the essential workers. It should be the nursing home attendants. It
should be the cops. It should be the deputies in the jail. It should be the
election workers. It should be the dude at the dog food shop.
All the ones that didn't have to go to work. Could have taken the
unemployment and didn't do that. They did the real work. They're real
people. They are the real heroes and that's what this whole year has really
been about. And I think it will be nuts not to give it to them because it
is all about the working person. But Manhattan is a whole another country
and I don't think they care. But that's why I give it to him.
MACCALLUM: Manhattan is another country that's for sure. You know what, I
like the way that they used to do it and I think they should stick to the
principle at Time magazine of the measure of what it is. Because I'd love
to see a real lively debate around that table of, you know, the greatest
influence on the events of the year for better or for worse. And I would
say that it's inescapable that if that's the measure it has to be the virus
itself.
LEDUFF: That's a good one, too.
MACCALLUM: I mean, that is --
LEDUFF: I guess I could go for the virus but I could go for the atom bomb.
MACCALLUM: I mean, --
LEDUFF: You know, they did do the computer before.
MACCALLUM: You know, what I'm saying, you know, in the past they have
chosen -- we can put up, they chose Hitler in 1938, Stalin in '39 and '42.
So, the villain of the year is the COVID-19 virus.
LEDUFF: Yes. But you know what? Everyone is so tired and bummed out and
everything is so negative. You know, how about we embrace each other?
MACCALLUM: I know.
LEDUFF: Like, thank you, cop. Thank you, paramedic.
MACCALLUM: I know.
LEDUFF: And Mr. Mayor, can the fire department have a contract and can
they get some hazard pay back? Those are -- my niece, the emergency room
nurse that's why I'd like to see get it.
MACCALLUM: I agree with you 100 percent and I would fill all the pages
with all of those people because the virus is clearly the biggest impact on
the course of this year. Charlie, thank you for being here. Good to see
you.
LEDUFF: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: So, coming up next, a story about what makes this country
great. How this brave young woman fought the Nazis, fled to the United
States with nothing and never gave up in her pursuit of the American dream.
She became a physician and she treated heroin addicts in New York.
Her son is someone that you know pretty well from this program when we come
back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: Janina Januszowska Thiessen was a teenager when the Nazis
occupied her village in Poland. She joined the resistance. She served as a
courier for the underground home army dodging German sniper fire, and
unlike many others she somehow made it out alive.
Janina would then go to London and then Ireland where she received a
medical degree. Became a doctor, she made her way to the United States as a
refugee. But once she was here, people would ask her where are you from?
And she would respond in her thick Polish accent that she never lost New
York City.
Janina Januszowska died last week in the city and the country that she
loved. The United States of America at the age of 91 and still so beautiful
as you can see in that picture. Her son of whom she was very proud, Marc
Thiessen, our friend, joins us now.
Marc, first of all, my condolences. As soon as I heard that your mom had
passed at the age of 92, I thought we need to have Marc on and just make
sure that everyone hears the story of this remarkable American woman. So,
I'm sorry for your loss.
MARC THIESSEN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: And I want you to tell us a little bit about your trip to
Poland with your son and what your mother taught you about her life there.
THIESSEN: Yes. Well, you know, first of all thank you for having me on. I
know you write a beautiful book called "The Unknown Valor" which was the
story of your family's courage and sacrifice at Iwo Jima and my mother had
a story of unknown valor half world away in Warsaw.
As you said, she grew up in Nazi occupied Warsaw. She joined the resistance
as a teenage girl, about 12 or 13 years old. She would sneak out at night
after the curfew to paint anti-Nazi graffiti on the walls and deliver --
deliver flowers to the tombs of Polish heroes which was an act of defiance
she could have been killed for.
And then later on when she was about 13, she started carrying radios across
the city of that. One time she told me a story that she was lugging this
heavy radio and German soldier stopped her and she thought she was going to
get arrested. Instead he picked it up and carried it for her a few blocks.
So, she survived that way.
And then in August of 1944 the Polish home army rose up and actually took
back the capital of Warsaw and held it for 63 days and she was part of the
resistance there. She was the liaison girl that was carrying -- she was
carrying orders from one end of the city to the other and she had to, at an
age when most kids are running, and you know, going to school and playing
dodge ball she was dodging German sniper fire running orders from one end
of town to the other.
And the Warsaw of course held the city for 63 days but the west abandoned
them. They never -- they never delivered weapons or supplies, and so
eventually their weapons ran out and they had to surrender. She surrendered
and was brought to a German POW camp. She was just 15 years old and was
finished -- finished out the war in a German POW camp and was liberated by
Patton's army.
Patton went too far into Germany. And so, he brought back the prisoners of
war that he liberated. If he hadn't done that she would have been in the
Soviet sector and I would have had a different life.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
THIESSEN: And then she went back and finished the war in the Polish army
under British command as a paratrooper. Again, she lied to (Inaudible)
because you had you to be 16 to be in the Polish army and the British
command. So, she was only 15 so she lied about her age.
And then finished the war in London. Went to medical school in Ireland.
Learned how to speak English and medicine at the same time and then made
her way over here where, as you mentioned, she was a medical doctor and she
spent her life treating heroin addicts in the south Bronx and in Harlem,
and actually, worked until almost her 90th birthday treating heroin
addicts.
MACCALLUM: It's just a remarkable. I love the story of your mother. She is
so brave and, you know, just such a great life lesson. She is fearless and
you said that one of the reasons she was so comfortable, you know, in these
clinics that she ran for heroin addicts is because she wasn't afraid after
her life experiences of being in those tough neighborhoods in New York,
right?
THIESSEN: No, that's exactly right because she grew up in Nazi occupied
Warsaw that prepares you pretty well for the south Bronx.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
THIESSEN She always has this fear. She told me she always -- she was always
sure she was going to survive the war. When the Germans first took Warsaw
they bombed the city and they bombed her house actually and they were
hiding in a neighbor's basement while the bombing was taking place, and she
told me her mother gathered all the -- gathered all the family in the
corner of basement and said we are all going to die together.
And she said you die together and she sat went over to another corner of
the basement and said I'm not dying. So, she was pretty sure she was going
to make it. But I was very lucky to be able to take my kids the summer of
2019 for the 75th anniversary uprising and took her. She as still able to
travel at 91. We took her there and took all my kids.
And I wanted them to learn the lesson of the Warsaw uprising and their
grandmother's experience which is don't take freedom for granted that
within the lifetime of your immediate family all these things happened.
Your grandmother was literally being shot at by Nazi snipers. And so, these
-- these -- the freedoms that we have today could be taken away at any
moment. And also, remember that refugees are a blessing not a burden.
My mother was a stateless refugee after the war. She had lost her
citizenship in Poland. She didn't have a country and America welcomed her
and if she -- and she made America better. She helped people who were
desperate and in desperate need who nobody cared about and she made this
country better. And so, refugees are a blessing in this country. And we
should welcome everyone who is seeking freedom and opportunity and try to
escape terror.
MACCALLUM: Janina Januszowska Thiessen, rest in peace. We are glad that
she gave us you, Marc. Such an insightful writer.
THIESSEN: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: And such a great guest on our show.
THIESSEN: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: So, my heart goes with you and your family. Thank you so much,
Marc. Great to have you with us.
THIESSEN: I'm so grateful to you for having me on tonight. Thank you.
MACCALLUM: Likewise. That is THE STORY of Monday, November the 30th, 2020.
But as always, THE STORY continues. And we will continue to bring it to you
every night. We'll see you back here tomorrow night at seven p.m. Tucker
Carlson is coming up next.
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