This is a rush transcript from "The Story," July 3, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
JOHN SCOTT, FOX NEWS HOST: Good evening to you Mike and thank you. At this hour President Trump is aboard Air Force One en route to South Dakota kicking off July 4 weekend at Mount Rushmore. The celebration fraught with controversy tonight, not only because of COVID-19 concerns but also because of the growing movement to eliminate historic monuments from sites around the nation and that push includes Mount Rushmore.
Good evening to you. I'm John Scott in for Martha MacCallum and this is The Story. Fox News learning that the President's remarks tonight will address the 'left wing mob' practicing cancel culture, telling them if we tear down our history, we won't be able to understand our destiny.
This as the Department of Homeland Security is sending Rapid Deployment Teams across the country to protect federal monuments this holiday weekend. DHS Acting Deputy Secretary Ken Cuccinelli is here with more on the mobilization.
Secretary. All right, Secretary Cuccinelli, the threat to monuments. You have obviously established teams all over the country who are what - going to be ready to act at a moment's notice if there is some kind of trouble?
KEN CUCCINELLI, ACTING DEPUTY SECRETARY, DHS: Yes, we have them pre- deployed in several locations around the country with air assets if we need to travel. We also have teams pre-deployed to cities and - and areas where we think are more likely to be problem areas so that we're able to assist just as we did in Washington DC a month ago when we advance over 800 of our law enforcement officers from a variety of agencies to assist the secret service part police and MPD in Washington DC recess to restore peace in the city of Washington.
And will help do that anywhere that would - that is appropriate around the country as the President has advertised. We're going to be very forward leaning in maintaining the peace and keeping Americans and our history safe.
SCOTT: It surprises me that there are some who don't like the images that are engraved on Mount Rushmore but that has become the focal point of some protests in advance of the President's visit. Do you anticipate any trouble? Do you anticipate not having to send one of your teams to Mount Rushmore?
CUCCINELLI: Well, there you got the park police, some of our partners all over the country. We expect that that is being managed just fine. Our teams are - some of them are prepared to go anywhere so we can go to Mount Rushmore. We can go to New York, Washington, Atlanta, Dallas, wherever we need to be. We have people prepared trained ready to go with air assets to get them there quickly.
And that's true whether it's support on the ground or whether it's surveillance in the air so we have a lot of assets deployed and ready to go.
SCOTT: The President signed to the executive order designating you know, federal monuments for protection. Is that enough? Is that going to be enough to protect some of the works of art that that have been under attack around the country?
CUCCINELLI: So it yes is the short answer. What the President did there is push the federal authorities out to our limits and he brought everyone's attention to the statute that makes - I should say law that makes penalties up to 10 years for damage and to statues under that - under that law.
So it gives us a broader jurisdiction. We're defending a lot of the federal property where a lot of these statues and works of art are anyway literally hundreds of them and that's the responsibility of the Department of Homeland Security. We've been doing that. We've been doing it successfully and we're reinforcing all those teams everywhere we need to.
So there's a lot of ground to cover, there's a lot of law enforcement officers. We literally have more law enforcement officers than any other entity in the country so we're using them all this weekend.
SCOTT: You're getting some push back from the American Civil Liberties Union. They put out a statement which in part reflects on the President's visits to Mount Rushmore. I believe we have that here. Yes, they say, "The administration is prioritizing protection of property over the safety of black and brown communities. DHS is a rogue agency with a track record of abuse and disregard for human life.
Instead of deploying DHS and further militarizing our streets, our government should be investing resources and investigating ongoing threats to communities of color." What's your response?
CUCCINELLI: Threats like mob violence and looting that are destroying the stores, property and life in communities of color. I mean, look at Washington DC, a month ago. One of the under covered stories was how the looting of the Targets and the CVSs and so forth eliminated the opportunities for poor people in those neighborhoods to access medicine for their kids, to shop and what have previously been referred to as food desserts.
Well, are those companies going to come back to those neighborhoods without the protection or the confidence that they can do business without being destroyed and looted and have that looting celebrated by people like the ACLU. They're on the other side of both history and peace in this country right now and the President is firmly on the side of enforcing peace and keeping those neighborhoods that need it the most, safe.
SCOTT: The Acting Deputy Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security Ken Cuccinelli, thanks for coming on The Story tonight.
CUCCINELLI: Good to be with you.
SCOTT: We want to turn now to Chief Correspondent Jonathan Hunt. He is live at Mount Rushmore where the President will be speaking later this evening, Johnathan.
JOHNATHAN HUNT, FOX NEWS CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: Good evening John. Hard to think of a more spectacular way to kick off America's July 4 weekend. Standing in front of the iconic Mount Rushmore. We'll get a fly pass by Air Force One later as the President lands in nearby Ellsworth Airforce base.
And then as we come down the mountain and to the stage and the crowd in front of that stage of course, we have to talk about the politics as well as the spectacular nature of all this. Chief among the political issues of course tonight coronavirus. No social distancing here as you can quite plainly see from that crowd shoulder to shoulder gathering to watch the President's remarks later.
The South Dakota governor has said masks are not required. Social distancing is not required. They are handing out masks to those who want them but I would say it is a maximum of about 20 percent of the people that we've seen here who are wearing at masks tonight.
There's also the issue of fireworks, fireworks displays were halted in 2009 because of fears of forest fires. The President has said what can burn, it is only stone but as you can also quite plainly see, there are a lot of trees around here and then there's the issue of land rights too.
Members of the Lakota Sioux tribe have been protesting. They say that this land is that is and should be returned. They and other anti-Trump protesters did block one road we heard earlier leading towards Mount Rushmore. We believe that blockage and those protesters have now been cleared from the road and then of course, we get to the true politics of tonight.
The President's speech. We are told by a senior administration official that the President, "You can expect the President to express strong support for America's military, the men and women of our police and so many of our cherished principles and institutions that are under attack daily from the Left."
As you mentioned earlier John, the President is also expected to criticize what he calls the left-wing mall that have been calling to actually pulling down the statues that make a part of America's history. So tonight, in every sense John will be a night of fireworks. John.
SCOTT: Is going to be something. Jonathan Hunt from Mount Rushmore. Jonathan, thank you.
A conservative watchdog is filing suit against our nation's capital government, the district there, over a giant 'Black Lives Matter' mural painted steps from the White House. Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton reveals the new message he wants to see painted on the streets, next.
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SCOTT: It's been one month since activists in Washington DC painted 'Black Lives Matter' on a street not far from the White House with the blessing of the district government. Now the conservative, non-profit Judicial Watch is suing the city's mayor Muriel Bowser and others, citing a first amendment violation, after their requests to paint a political message was denied.
Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton joins me now. Tom, what did you want to paint on the street?
TOM FITTON, PRESIDENT, JUDICIAL WATCH: Well, it's our motto at Judicial Watch. It's our motivation because no one is above the law. It doesn't get any more apolitical than that. We wanted to the painted on a street near our offices here on Capitol Hill just a few blocks away from the studio and then Mayor and her office gave us the run around for three weeks so we sued.
Now remember, the city painted 'Black Lives Matter.' The city also allowed to be painted as well 'Defund the Police.' So you know it's hard to argue that that can take place, yet a request like we're making can't and so you know when you start - when you start denying access to a public forum now, which the streets are according to the mayor's own actions, you're - you're running up against the first amendment. That's why we're in federal court.
SCOTT: I want to read to you part of a response from the George Washington University professor Paul Schiff Berman. He writes, "If you create a true public forum and you let lots of people protest there, then of course the government can't favor some sorts of speech over other sorts of speech. But this is not a Public Park. This is the government itself choosing to speak. The government painted the 'Black Lives Matter' painting on the street and when the government is speaking, they're not required to allow space for alternative viewpoints."
I find that point of view a little surprising. Since when is the government always right.
FITTON: Well and especially since they allowed that group to paint 'Defund the police.' Look, you know, we asked to go through the rule. We promised to go through the rules, said you know we need a permit, we'll get the permit. If we need paint, we'll buy the paint. We'll do everything necessary to comply with the law to get this message there.
And the government obviously can have certain restrictions about how it's done. They initially said well. I don't know if it will work because it might interfere with traffic. I said well, you know let's - we can close the street, is there a way to get a street closed? There's a street that's closed now outside the White House evidently to protect this painting.
Can we get an option there? And we're just getting the run around. We were told to call, to deal with their permitting office. They said but we don't know anything about a permit like that and it's not just in DC. We warned up in New York City. We warned Mayor De Blasio, who's also planning to paint similar messages across the city. We want access too. We want to paint on Fifth Avenue.
SCOTT: What's to prevent, I don't know somebody from coming in and say OK, now this week you need to paint 'Native American Lives Matter' on the streets of Washington DC.
FITTON: Nothing. But this is a consequence when a government or starts playing games and you know, if they're going to start picking winners and losers on speech issues in forums they are now opening up to the American people, the result is they got to follow the law.
And we're trying to hold the government accountable to law. It looks to me like the DC Mayor doesn't want our message to be out there because she disagrees with it and that's not proper under the constitution.
SCOTT: All right Tom Fitton, you have hit a roadblock so far with the city but let us know the outcome of your suit. Thanks for coming on.
FITTON: Will do. Thanks Scott.
SCOTT: Exactly four months out until election day and a deeper dive into President Trump's poll numbers tells a similar story regarding his standing in key battleground states at this point, four years ago. Charlie Kirk and Jessica Tarlov, next.
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SCOTT: Check your calendars. Today marks exactly four months until election day and while Joe Biden holds a nearly 9-point edge over President Trump nationally, his advantage in key swing states is not much different from that of Hillary Clinton's at this exact point in the race, four years ago.
In Florida, Biden is ahead less than seven points in the Real Clear Politics average 49. Trump's 42.6. Four months out from the 2016 election, Hillary Clinton was ahead more than three points in the sunshine state. In Michigan, Biden's advantage is less than eight points. Hillary Clinton's lead there was just over eight points in 2016.
Finally, in Wisconsin, Biden's edge is just over six points. At this point four years ago Hillary Clinton led there by more than seven points. Joining us now from the side of President Trump's mount Rushmore celebration tonight, Charlie Kirk, founder and President of Turning Point USA. I'm also joined by Jessica Tarlov, Senior Director of Research at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__apostle.com&d=DwICAg&c=cnx1hdOQtepEQkpermZGwQ&r=tgDLkJy54PfJyWJwul3dKe54qGxqO7b7d5vjo7RcZds&m=D5Zi6Q6skzKOvxTqb1g8YNEOQr9x1ZsXOv1pa8UklyI&s=U3LbdwjCAQlhfzihqv_tjKF1mlcnCP-YhAlLehl50_M&e= and a Fox news contributor.
So yes, the President is behind Jessica but as you just heard, he was behind at this point four years ago and came back to win it. Is this a similar situation potentially this time around?
JESSICA TARLOV, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Oh, it's absolutely a similar situation potentially but Joe Biden is in a better position than Hillary Clinton was four months out. The numbers you read are absolutely correct and I appreciate that we're talking about the averages. The Real Clear Politics averages rather than individual polls.
But there are some really important key demographics that President Trump is even further under water with this time around. Joe Biden is up 26 points with women and most crucially, he's up over 10 points with seniors. There is no path to the White House for a Republican without winning seniors by an overwhelming margin. Charlie knows this as well as I do.
And I would say as well that there are so many more swing states in play this time for the Democrats than last time. We know that Hillary Clinton lost by 77,000 votes because of three key states Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania. Now we're having conversations about Arizona turning blue.
Joe Biden is in good position to win Florida. We're taking out North Carolina. We're even talking about Georgia in some polls. There is a reason that President Trump's campaign is flipping out at this moment and it is because they know that he is not in the same position that he was in 2016.
SCOTT: Well Charlie, in 2016, Donald J. Trump was running against a woman who was well known on the political stage and had very high unfavorability numbers Joe Biden does not carry some of that same baggage, specifically the unfavorability numbers. Is that part of the difference here?
CHARLIE KIRK, FOUNDER AND PRESIDENT, TURNING POINT USA: Well, I want to make a couple points. First of which I feel like I've seen this story before where we look at polls' way to early. Let's remember polls are a temperature check of where the country is in a specific moment and remember in August of 2016, there was a big mix up with the campaign manager in the Trump campaigns.
So this idea that you know campaigns don't go through cycles, you know, I just think that just look at the results of the 2016 race. I think what Jessica said in some ways is well taken but I'll push back in that, you look at the cross tabs, the polling that Jessica mentioned.
The enthusiasm for Biden is not there. President Trump's enthusiasm remains very strong without a doubt. I think this race is going to tighten and we also have to acknowledge, this is not because - this is not a Presidential campaign in the traditional sense yet. This, in a lot of ways, the Biden campaign and the activist media have been trying to force a referendum on President Trump instead of a binary choice into November.
And I think the more the President gets out there like he is to a packed crowd tonight, I think his poll numbers are going to improve and also do not discount the silent voter that we saw in 2016.
SCOTT: Jessica, as you well know, most elections are about the economy. Now the economy is kind of in the tank right now, but it seems to be coming back at least based on the June jobs numbers. Are voters going to hold President Trump responsible for a once in a century pandemic?
TARLOV: Well, if you look at what people are saying right now, they absolutely are. His numbers on how we've been handling the coronavirus outbreak are absolutely dismal and yes, it's the economy stupid as James Carville famously said in 1992 but guess what? Health care is an economic issue and it was the number one issue in the 2018 midterms which is the most recent election that we have had that shows where the country is, where we saw dozens of house GOP members lose their seats to moderate Democrats running on a very similar platform to what Joe Biden is running on today.
And to Charlie's point about the enthusiasm gap, that is absolutely well taken but I would counter that with saying that the Democratic policies that are part of our platform and that Joe Biden has been campaigning on, are overwhelmingly popular. Think about the fact that we have lost over 129,000 American lives right now to COVID-19 and that the GOP is saying repeal and replace Obamacare, but we have no idea what we're going to replace it with.
Not only does the Obamacare enjoy almost a 50 percent approval rating, people cannot afford to lose their health insurance. We need to be going in the opposite direction and insuring more people. The GOP has had what, five - six - seven years to figure out what they're going to do about healthcare and they just sit there and rant and rave about Obamacare because they have some personal prejudice against President Obama with no replacement in sight.
Those are the kinds of things that are going to decide this election and why frankly, women are turning on President Trump and Republicans.
SCOTT: I want to play very quickly what Hillary Clinton had to say about how she would have handled coronavirus. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We wouldn't have been able to stop the pandemic at our borders the way that you know Trump claimed in the beginning but we sure could have done a better job saving lives, modeling better more responsible behavior. I don't think we necessarily could have - should have had as deep an economic assault on livelihoods and jobs as we have. So, I feel like I know I would have done a better job.
(END AUDIO CLIP) SCOTT: So, Charlie, the defeated candidate says she would have done a better job.
KIRK: With no specifics whatsoever, I would love to hear what she would have done differently. Look, the President and his team reacted in historic fashion to be able to provide the American people what they needed. Unfortunately, we had a lockdown in the country and we saw the economic price that we had to pay for that.
But we already see the economy roaring back. I mean, the estimates that were put forward, we're already crushing. 5 million new jobs in this latest report and Hillary Clinton, Monday morning quarterbacking, I don't think is going to resonate with the American people, but I'll tell you that leadership is hard.
The President's been through a couple of months that no one could have predicted and if there is a person that is well suited to go through this time in our country's history, it's President Trump. This campaign is so early in its stages, I'll tell you, this will tighten. I know Jessica knows that campaigns end up being binary decisions once debates happen.
And it will essentially be a question of who is more likely to restore America back to Donald Trump's period of greatness and of course, that will be President Trump.
SCOTT: The voting begins well, mail-in obviously begins earlier but -
TARLOV: Hopefully by mail very soon.
SCOTT: Four months from today. All right, Jessica Tarlov, Charlie Kirk, thank you both. Andy Puzder on whether it was the right call to reopen America and Alex Berenson who says the rising COVID cases is called basically meaningless. Next.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Eighty percent of small businesses are now open. Eighty percent. And we think we're going to have some very good numbers in the coming months because others are opening. And especially as we put the flame out, getting rid of the flame that's happening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT: President Trump cheering the reopening of America and the addition of 4.8 million jobs last month. The Wall Street Journal editorial board writes, the media's grim reaper has continued to predict catastrophe from the COVID-19 resurgence, but it's hard to read Thursday's labor report as anything but good news. Businesses are willing to hire and Americans want to return from work if the government will let them."
Meanwhile, new COVID cases hit nearly 40,000 today after a previous one-day record of more than 52,000 just as Americans prepare to gather for the Fourth of July celebration. And as Axios reports, cash can't fix the economy's problems until the coronavirus is curved.
Joining me now, Andy Puzder, he is former CEO of CKE Restaurants and author of "Getting America Back to Work." You heard, Andy, a lot of detractors saying that it's too early to be putting America back to work that you got to get this coronavirus leaked before you can start, you know, mingling in the workplace and restaurants and so forth. How do you answer that?
ANDY PUZDER, FORMER CEO, CKE RESTAURANTS: Well, look, it's not just mingling in the workplace and in restaurants. We've seen mass protests where people aren't socially distancing. Many people don't wear masks. You obviously can't wash your hands while you're in the midst of a mass protest.
You can't criticize people for going to work or people for going to restaurants and then engage in these other activities that could spread the disease and be even worse for contamination.
So, look, it was not too early to open the country. I think everybody -- what we've seen is a real resurgence as you said in jobs. I mean, incomes are up. We've seen retail sales up, we've seen home sales up, we've seen new contract. People are getting out. They're confident. They're starting to live their lives again.
And while you are seeing an increase in coronavirus cases, you're not seeing an increase in people dying from coronavirus. You know, we shut the economy down because we thought people were going to die, not because we thought they might get sick.
So, we're not seeing the deaths that you would expect to see because younger people are getting the disease, a lot of this is extra testing. And our scientists better understand it and our doctors are better able to treat it.
So, things aren't as bad as the left would like you to think. We're getting too close to the election for them to see a resurge in economy because they don't know President Trump will get to be, get the credit.
SCOTT: Because back in February they were talking about the possibility of two and a half, three million deaths from this pandemic.
PUZDER: Exactly, that's exactly right. It was 2.5 million death. And, you know, I don't blame any of the governors. They've talk about the president shutting down the economy. The governors shut down the economy. I don't blame the president for what he did. I don't blame the governors for shutting down the economy.
Look, if somebody told me 2.5 million Americans were going to die, I think I would've done the same thing as they did. A lot of mistakes were made but the information kept changing, the advice from the medical and scientific community kept changing. People dealt with the situation as best they could at the time. I think the president did an excellent job.
But, now, we're sort of through that phase, you know, we don't the tremendous number of deaths. Six hundred deaths a day is what we're at now. We were are at over 2,000 in April. And 600 is too many, it's too much. But it's not the tremendous numbers that we were told would happen and I think we need to start trying to get people's lives back to normal.
SCOTT: Very quickly, though, Andy, Texas just reported its highest number of daily cases, I think the number was 49,000.
PUZDER: Yes. But you have to look at deaths. I mean, is this -- is these young people getting the disease? And there could be a surge in deaths over the next few weeks, and if there is, we are going to have to take more serious actions.
And Texas is doing the right thing. They're trying to address the virus as it has arisen in Texas. But you're not seeing the kinds of deaths that we expected to see. We're not seeing people die from this in the numbers that we thought they would.
So, we need to get this under control, we need to -- people need to follow the protocols. If you follow the protocols, we can get this under control. You know, in Houston, they had a big memorial service for George Floyd. I think that was a great thing. But you can't expect that the disease isn't going to spread when you have events like that.
So, I think we need to be more careful, we need to be more diligent. We need to get this under control. We're not going to get the economy totally back until we get a vaccine or a very effective therapeutic. But in the meantime, we can start to get things back to normal. And I think May and June for two months had shown that the American people are ready to do it and American businesses are ready do it.
SCOTT: Andy Puzder, Andy, good to have you on. Thank you.
PUZDER: Good to be here, Jon. Thank you.
SCOTT: Also with us tonight, Alex Berenson, former New York Times reporter and author of "Unreported Truths About COVID-19 and Lockdowns." You have -- you have that the rise, Alex, you're and quoted at saying that the rise in COVID-19 numbers is basically meaningless. Can you explain?
ALEX BERENSON, FORMER REPORTER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Sure, not the rise, were talking about positive test results when we talk about cases. And here's what we know. We know that many, many more people are infected with COVID-19 than have ever tested positive in what's called the PCR test which measures the active presence of the virus in your body.
The CDC recently said it was at least 10 times the number, there are other credible estimates out there that it might be 20 to 30 times the numbers. And that's based on what's called serology testing which tells us who has been infected and recovered.
And so, basically, look, there's definitely been community growth in the virus in the transmission of the virus, there's been spread in the sunbelt state in the last month. I don't think anybody could dispute that.
But it's also true that we basically can -- if we tested everybody on the same day, we'd have a massive number. And how can I tell you that with certainty? I can tell you last week just a few days ago, there's an amazing number out of North Carolina where they have been doing serology testing widely and they found that almost 15 percent of people in the state have antibodies.
Now, that translates into a million and a half people in North Carolina recovering from the virus. Assuming that their test was correct and there's no reason to believe it wasn't. What we don't we still haven't done that on the national scale so we truly don't know how many people have already gotten this.
But what I'm saying to you, what I'm saying to everyone, is this rise from 10,000 or 20,000 cases, I should say 20,000 positive tests to 50,000 essentially means very little if we already know that are hundreds of thousands of people a day nationally being infected with this.
SCOTT: So, when Andy Puzder says as he just did, that what you'd really have to watch is the number of deaths, not necessarily the number of positive tests. Do you agree with that?
BERENSON: Well, I would say you have to watch hospitalizations, you have to watch ICU -- ICU hospitalizations, people in intensive care, you have to watch ventilators, and you have to watch deaths. Deaths lagged. Deaths are going to be the last thing to move up but it is very ensuring that in Texas, Arizona, Florida, three huge states, 60 million people, those three states had about 130 deaths today.
They had about 130 deaths last week. Nationally, the deaths have been going down. Even in the big sunbelt states they haven't really been going up, they've trended up very marginally. At some point we have to acknowledge that the virus --
(CROSSTALK)
SCOTT: We're looking it on the screen.
BERENSON: -- either doctors -- doctors are treating it better, or there's a lot of people who were being hospitalized with COVID rather than from COVID. In other words, they -- because community spread is so wide, you're going into the hospital for some elected procedure, they're testing you for COVID, they're finding it.
Or it is possible, and there is, you know, there is scientific speculation about this, I wouldn't say it's confirmed by any means, that the virus is actually become less virulent.
SCOTT: We're watching the president, the crowds getting ready to hear the president speak tonight in Mount Rushmore. Obviously there have been the huge protests around the country with maskless protesters, you know, getting together. Is that part of the reason that we are seeing this increase, the increase in numbers?
BERENSON: It's possible. I think it's more likely it's just people going out a lot. There's very little evidence that outdoor transmission of the virus is a major vector. There's actually, there's a fair bit of evidence that if you're in bars or restaurants and crowded spaces not wearing a mask for long periods of time, you can -- the mask question aside, you can definitely spread the virus.
Here's the thing, it's not that we should not paying attention to what's happening with cases, not that we should not be paying attention to what's happening in Texas and Florida. I pay very, very close attention to the data every day. And when I'm saying to you is, right now, all these people who are saying that this is going to be -- Houston is going to be New York in two weeks.
There is no evidence that they are right about that. And those are the same people who hysterically when New York was New York back in March, were saying there are going to be mass graves in Central Park. So, consider the source. Consider the people who are trying to panic you because they have been trying to panic you for three months now.
SCOTT: A lot of the worst predictions did not come true worth noting. Alex Berenson, thank you.
BERENSON: Did not come true, that's right. Thanks.
SCOTT: At Mount Rushmore tonight, President Trump is expected to say that if we tear down our history, we will not be able to understand ourselves as Americans. While at the same time there is a push underway to remove Edmund Pettus' name from the historic bridge in Selma, Alabama which Dr. Martin Luther King walked across in 1965. That debate is next.
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SCOTT: As President Trump prepares to deliver a message about the importance of holding on to America's history, there's a new push underway to change the name of one of the nation's most iconic civil rights landmarks, the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama. Organizers say Pettus that the former U.S. senator confederate general, and Ku Klux Klan leader should be taken down and replaced with the name of Representative John Lewis, one of the civil rights leaders who peacefully lead marchers across that bridge in 1965, and was beaten on a day that became known as Bloody Sunday.
Our next guest is leading that charge as founder of the John Lewis Bridge project, Michael Starr Hopkins joins me now. Make your argument, why should the Edmund Pettus Bridge be renamed in honor of John Lewis?
MICHAEL STARR HOPKINS, FOUNDER, JOHN LEWIS BRIDGE PROJECT: Well, look, that's a pretty easy argument to make. Edmund Pettus wasn't just a racist, but he was a traitor. In Americas as far as I know traitors don't get trophies. And that's exactly what we do when we allow the name of Edmund Pettus to stay on that bridge.
Edmund Pettus is a person who believed that people who look like me, my ancestors, not only shouldn't be part of this country but we should continue to be in shackles. And so, to have a monument to that type of man isn't just disrespectful to the legacy of African Americans, but it bestows on him an honor that he doesn't deserve. And so, when we have the president defend --
(CROSSTALK)
SCOTT: But there are some -- there are some --
HOPKINS: Go ahead.
SCOTT: There are some African-Americans in Selma who say that the Edmund Pettus Bridge has been -- has become synonymous with the civil rights movement and if you change the name of it, you wipe away some of that history.
HOPKINS: And you know, there's a reason why we are trying to foster conversation but let me be very clear. Just because the name Edmund Pettus is not on that bridge does not mean that we will forget the horrific things that he did and forget the horrific things that happened on that bridge.
You know, we often talk about how long ago the Civil War was. The last person who died, who fought in the Civil War died in my parent's lifetime. Likely, your lifetime. Th last person to receive a pension from the Civil War died on Memorial Day of this year. That's not long ago.
And so, what we need to do is wipe away the stain of racism in our country's history and put these monuments into museums where they belong.
SCOTT: Why John Lewis?
HOPKINS: Well, John Lewis is obviously an American hero. He is someone who has been deeply involved in the civil rights movement and was attacked on that bridge and almost died. So, he is someone who I think actually deserves that honor. You know, we are open to talking to people on the ground about who the bridge should be named after. But what we have bipartisan support for is the fact that it shouldn't be named after Edmund Pettus. Edmund Pettus was a coward. Edmund Pettus was a traitor.
SCOTT: Why not let the people of Selma decide?
HOPKINS: Well, at the end of the day the people of Selma are going to decide. But we have over 300,000 signatures in a little over two weeks and what we're now trying to do is along with the community in Selma come together and make historic change. The change that this country has been clamoring for, for years, if not decades.
SCOTT: Michael Starr Hopkins, Michael, thank you.
HOPKINS: Thank you.
SCOTT: Also, with us tonight, Dinesh D'Souza, author of "United States of Socialism" and creator of the forthcoming film "Trump Card." Dinesh, you think that renaming that bridge is not a particularly good idea, why?
DINESH D'SOUZA, AUTHOR, UNITED STATES OF SOCIALISM: Well, my quarrel is not with Pettus who I think I don't have any brief for the confederacy. I think that there were some honorable guys on that side, but they fought in the bad cause.
I think the problem here is a larger one and it's impossible to view this particular dispute in isolation. There's a larger argument about the narrative of American history itself. This goes way beyond the confederacy, goes way beyond John Lewis. What we can argue about John Lewis.
John Lewis was actually a hero of the civil rights movement. I think he's been less of a hero in Congress as you look at his district with horrible crime rates, broken families, a terrible legacy of intergenerational poverty.
And remember, the guy has been in office since 1987. So, I have mixed views on John Lewis in that capacity. Also, I think it may not be a good idea to name people after monuments in their own lifetime. And the reason is it's difficult to assess their historical legacy when they haven't been in the sense even transmitted into history, so to speak.
But the larger narrative I'm talking about is this. There is an effort to go out after the icons of American history in general. This includes Ulysses Grant. This includes Abraham Lincoln. The Catholic saint who built the California missions. The effort to take down Mount Rushmore. I think this is actually an abuse of history, a distortion of history. And ultimately, an insult to people like me who have come as immigrant to Americans. We've fallen in love with the American flag and American exceptionalism and we now see the left trying to tear it down.
SCOTT: But you just heard from Michael Starr Hopkins, he said he's got 285,000 signatures on a petition to change the name of the Edmund Pettus Bridge to the John Lewis bridge. Isn't that the way to go about change in America, to, you know, to discuss things, to talk it out, bring it out into the open and then make a decision?
D'SOUZA: Well, I'm not disputing that process. I think it is. It's obviously a better process than defacing statues, pulling them down, urinating on them and so on as this antifa and black lives matter guys are doing, I agree.
But let me point out a little thing. Martin Luther King once said that he was submitting a promissory note that he was demanding that it'd be cashed. Now what promissory note could he be referring to? Well, ironically, he was referring to the Declaration of Independence.
So, here's a document written by a Virginia slaveholder who at one time owned 200 slaves, and yet, this was the man who ultimately wrote the very charter that Martin Luther King was appealing to as a charter of black liberation. I think right in that little episode you see the complexity of history and to just say things like Jefferson was a slave owner, let's pull the statue down, he's a bad guy. I think that reflects a certain kind of barbarism that we don't want in our society.
SCOTT: Dinesh D'Souza, interesting thoughts. Thank you.
And Independence Day message from President Ronald Reagan, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCOTT: Tonight's quote of the night from President Ronald Reagan on Independence Day 34 years ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONALD REAGAN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If there's one impression I'd carry with me after the privilege of holding for five and a half years the office held by Adams, Jefferson, and Lincoln, it is this. That the things that unite us, America's past of which we are so proud of, our hopes and aspirations for the future of the world and this much-loved country, these things far outweigh what little divides us.
And so tonight, we are to be affirmed that you and gentile, we are one nation under God, the black and white, we are one nation indivisible that Republican and Democrat. We are all Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT: Memorable words. And that is The Story of Friday, July 3rd, 2020. But as always, The Story continues.
President Trump speech from Mount Rushmore is coming up 10 p.m. Eastern Time right here on Fox News channel. Have a very safe holiday weekend. See you back here Monday night at 7 p.m. Eastern.
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