Run DMC's Joseph Simmons Defends Gangsta Rap

This is a partial transcript from The O'Reilly Factor, September 15, 2003.

BILL O'REILLY, HOST: In the "Personal Story" Segment tonight, as you may know, I believe the gangsta rap industry and the white rage rap peddled by Eminem (search) and others hurt children who are unsupervised and/or unstable. The problem is that rap has become a lifestyle for some children, not just an entertainment.

Earlier this month, a rap guy named Nelly (search) launched a new energy drink called Pimp Juice (search), which is supposed to supply energy. Project Islamic Hope (search) and the National Black Anti-Defamation League (search) are trying to keep this drink from being distributed to the grocery stores saying it sends a terrible message.

With us now is Joseph Simmons, also known as Reverend Run, the author of the book, It's Like That: A Spiritual Memoir. Mr. Simmons is also the lead singer of the group Run DMC (search).

Probably the first rap group, right? You guys were one of the...

JOSEPH SIMMONS, RUN DMC: Well, we broke it big.

O'REILLY: Yes. And you guys weren't anything like they are now, were you?

SIMMONS: Well, I can't say that we weren't anything like [the guys now]. I think rap is the same now that it was before. People say that Run DMC was very positive but, you know, years ago, they — the NAACP (search) — we did a voter registration, and people got mad at that, so...

O'REILLY: Why did they get mad at the voter registration?

SIMMONS: Because they didn't understand us. They thought because we wore no shoestrings in our sneakers and we walked a certain way and then talked a certain way that we were negative. So it's always the next generation, always the older people that are...

O'REILLY: Maybe.

SIMMONS: The older people always mad at the new generation.

O'REILLY: But, Reverend, look...

SIMMONS: So they were mad at you at one time.

O'REILLY: They're always mad at me...

SIMMONS: I'm talking about as a youth.

O'REILLY: What I have to do is what I think is right, and I think gangsta rap is wrong. But, look, this Pimp Juice thing epitomizes what I'm talking about here. It's not important. I don't care whether there's Pimp Juice in 7-Eleven or not. I would never buy it, but what it does is vulgarize society and gives children a message that it's OK to be a pimp, that pimps are fine, all of that is normal. Don't you see that?

SIMMONS: No. Well, see, you have to understand rap. When somebody comes up to you and says, "What's up, player," or "How you doing, pimp," really, it's a term of endearment. We're not saying, "Go and become a pimp." You just have to understand rap. It's kind of a coded thing.

My son, Daniel — Daniel is eight — comes up [and says], "What's up, Pimp Juice?" It wasn't like he was saying, "Go and be a pimp." It's like when some people say, "What up, nigga" ” we don't look at it like, "Oh, my God. The..."

O'REILLY: But what if I said it?

SIMMONS: Well, you can say it. It's just...

O'REILLY: No, believe me — believe me, Reverend...

SIMMONS: It's just not expected of you.

O'REILLY: ... I can't say it, and...

SIMMONS: You can say it. It's just not expected…

O'REILLY: Well, look — all right.

SIMMONS: ... for you.

O'REILLY: So you're saying that Pimp Juice, all of this is a code?

SIMMONS: It's not even a code. It's just the way we talk to each other. It doesn't mean go out and become a pimp.

O'REILLY: It doesn't have any meaning beyond that?

SIMMONS: No. It's just...

O'REILLY: All right. Now let me ask you this. And I'm sorry. I've used this example probably too many times, but it's so vivid to me.

We had a couple of grammar school teachers in here who teach in tough neighborhoods in New York City, and they said that now we've got 10-year-old boys calling 10-year-old girls hos and bitches.

Now I'm sure they even don't know what a prostitute is, but they are using the term, directing it at little girls with whom they are angry. Now, certainly, Reverend, you can't condone that.

SIMMONS: Well, I don't condone that, but I know that Missy Elliott calls herself a bad-ass bitch, and, you know...

O'REILLY: Who's Missy Elliott?

SIMMONS: She's a great rapper, and she's...

O'REILLY: OK, but how old is Missy Elliott?

SIMMONS: Missy Elliott is maybe...

O'REILLY: Twenty-one?

SIMMONS: ... 27, 28 years old.

O'REILLY: All right. So I don't care what Missy Elliott does, but I do care what a 10-year-old boy does to a 10-year-old girl. That's wrong. And you know what? That boy...

SIMMONS: Do you think rap made up those words?

O'REILLY: I think rap says it so much.

SIMMONS: Rap is a reflection of the world.

O'REILLY: You're younger than me. When I was growing up, I grew up with Marvin Gaye, with Motown, Four Tops, Temptations, greatest music in the world.

SIMMONS: But there was a lot of country redneck records that I know that...

O'REILLY: Well, I didn't listen to them.

SIMMONS: Well, they were there...

O'REILLY: I mean they were, but they didn't...

SIMMONS: ... and there's a lot of...

O'REILLY: ... seep into the inner-city culture. They don't listen to country music. So the...

SIMMONS: Now...

O'REILLY: ... inner-city culture had Motown, the Supremes, all of this music, which was good music, they still play it today. They didn't have this corrupting influence.

Then, all of a sudden, this avalanche comes in of four-letter words, drug use, all of these things. Now, yes, it reflects a small segment of the ghetto, but it doesn't reflect hardworking people.

SIMMONS: Well, rap music is just a reflection of the world on a whole.

O'REILLY: A small segment of it.

SIMMONS: But we're just giving you back what you've given us. We're the voice of pain, we're in your face, and the poor people have the mic. And when we say black and rap, the question is are we talking about black, are we talking about rap? Eminem is white. He's sold the most records.

O'REILLY: White rage. Right.

SIMMONS: It's not white rage. It's...

O'REILLY: What you just said is absolutely true.

SIMMONS: He's enraged because he's been held down. He's been...

O'REILLY: Yes, he's been — well, look...

SIMMONS: He's been beat up by America.

O'REILLY: That is the subject — that is the circumstance of most Americans. They don't have a fair shot. I agree with you that this is rage-driven.

But this is the law of unintended consequences, Reverend. Unintended consequences. What started out as, "I want to express myself and I want to tell you how it is in the hood" has now corrupted kids, made kids desensitized...

SIMMONS: It's boomeranging.

O'REILLY: ... what proper conduct is.

SIMMONS: It's boomeranging back in America's face, and this is what's in the ghetto.

O'REILLY: No. In the kid's face.

SIMMONS: Well, no, in everybody's face, but...

O'REILLY: Yes, but the kids need to be protected.

SIMMONS: Yes. Well, if we're living in a society and we're sitting in the ghetto and we've been held back and now the poor people are at the mic, it's a chance for us to show you what is going on in America.

O'REILLY: Well, look, you can show somebody what's going on.

SIMMONS: Wyclef has a record out that's called Y'all Can't Blame It on Hip Hop. What we see is what we see...

O'REILLY: All right.

SIMMONS: ... and what we give is the reality.

O'REILLY: The unintended consequence is that you are providing unsupervised children with, A, an excuse to fail, B, a roadmap to barbaric and self-destructive behavior, and, C, they'll never get out of there.

Do you think a child who incorporates gangsta rap into their real life, as many of these children do, do you think they have any chance in America at all? They don't.

SIMMONS: Well, don't blame it on rap. You've got wrestling. You've got — think about the Twin Towers. Think about...

O'REILLY: Don't excuse one with another.

SIMMONS: Think about the Twin Towers. Think about CNN. Think about...

O'REILLY: The Twin Towers?

SIMMONS: ... this show. Everything. Think about what's going on. What — really the media gives a worse portrayal of everything than rap. Putting it on rap is crazy. That's like putting "The Terminator" — Arnold Schwarzenegger saying, OK...

O'REILLY: The difference is that rap has become a way of life for a lot of people.

SIMMONS: OK.

O'REILLY: That is harmful. I'll give you the last word.

SIMMONS: Well, I'm happy to be here, and I think that you do a lot of giving in the world, so...

O'REILLY: You're going to say something nice about me?

SIMMONS: That's all I could think about right now. You asked me — my last words is that you're a good man, and I appreciate it.

O'REILLY: All right, Reverend. Now we know why you're a Reverend. And we appreciate you coming in.

SIMMONS: I only see good.

O'REILLY: And tell your brother, Russell, that we liked when he came as well.

SIMMONS: Yes. And if you all don't want to drink Pimp Juice, drink DEFCON 3, Russell Simmons' beverage company.

O'REILLY: You can bet I won't be drinking any Pimp Juice. Thanks for coming in.

SIMMONS: All right. Thank you.

Copy: Content and Programming Copyright 2003 Fox News Network, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2003 eMediaMillWorks, Inc. (f/k/a Federal Document Clearing House, Inc.), which takes sole responsibility for the accuracy of the transcription. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material except for the user's personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon Fox News Network, Inc.'s and eMediaMillWorks, Inc.'s copyrights or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.