Donald Rumsfeld Talks With Sean Hannity

This is a partial transcript from "Hannity & Colmes," April 7, 2006, that has been edited for clarity.

SEAN HANNITY, CO-HOST: What is the outcome you expect from the War on Terror and more specifically on the war in Iraq? If we could see through the prism of history, what are we going to see?

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, if you think about what's happened, I think the past is prologue.

And the terrorists tried to stop the election last January, and they failed. They tried to stop the drafting of an Iraqi constitution and they failed. They tried to stop the referendum on October 15, and they failed. And more people participated and voted than had in January. They tried to stop the election December 15, and still more Iraqis went out and voted. And they voted with their feet, and they voted with their courage.

And now they're trying to stop the formation of a new government under that constitution after that election, and they're going to fail again. And we're going to get a government in that country. It will be an Iraqi solution to Iraqi problems. And I believe we're going to make it.

HANNITY: And what — what will we see in the region 10 years from now?

RUMSFELD: Well, assuming you're successful and the Iraqi people are successful in putting in place a government and placing their confidence in a piece of paper, in a constitution, think of that. That's an enormous bet that they're going to be making.

What we'll see is we'll see a country that has water, that has oil, that has intelligent people, that has history. And will be a country that will not be attacking its neighbors. It will not be filling mass graves with hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people. It won't be using chemicals on its own people. It will be a country that will be at peace and opposing violent extremists. And I think that that would be a fabulous thing for the world.

HANNITY: Do you see the democratization of the Middle East here like we saw the demise of the Soviet Union and all of Eastern Europe and emerging democracies? Do you see the same thing? The president speaks often of this — do you see — I mean, is it possible that it could be as dramatic and positive of a result, something nobody is predicting now? When Reagan said it was an evil empire, nobody predicted the wall would come tumbling down, did they?

RUMSFELD: No, they certainly didn't. If possible — you know, if you think about it, there's one real democracy and that's Israel, in the Middle East. And the Iranians do not want a representative government that is secular and at peace with its neighbors. Iranians will find that uncomfortable.

But I think that a successful Iraq, that is, a peaceful country and a representative country, that's respectful of all the various ethnic groups there would be a model that would have an enormous positive impact economically in the country — in the region, I mean.

HANNITY: Do you pay attention to the constant drum beat of criticism? Do you listen to it? Are you aware of it? Is it something you don't pay attention to, like because it's daily, you know that.

RUMSFELD: Sure.

HANNITY: Do you pay attention to it?

RUMSFELD: I suppose I'm not unaware of it, but in terms of getting up in the morning and agonizing over it and planning my day around it, I just don't. I can't. I've got too many things to do. We have important work that's being done out there. Our troops are doing a terrific job. And the threats that exist in the world that we have to be attentive to are real. We're transforming the Department of Defense simultaneously. And if you spend all of your time worrying about that, you couldn't do your job.

HANNITY: Let me ask a question that I've asked often as we've debated often, both on radio and TV, is what impact does it have on the effort when a former vice president screams George Bush has betrayed his country, when former presidents, vice-presidents, prominent members of the Senate and House, say the president lied, hyped, purposely misled to bring us into war?

When John Kerry says that our young Americans soldiers are going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of the night, terrorizing kids and children and women, et cetera. When Howard Dean, the head of the Democratic Party, says we can't win the war, does that undermine our troops? Is that an undermining effort? Is that different from legitimate criticism?

RUMSFELD: You know, if you go back in history and think of the things that were said about Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War, it was as abusive as it could be, and we survived that.

I was alive during World War II, and I think of what was said of Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

HANNITY: Truman took a lot of heat.

RUMSFELD: Harry Truman took a lot of heat.

HANNITY: Low poll numbers.

RUMSFELD: When I was in Congress, President Johnson was president, and he couldn't leave the White House to give a speech. They had to put buses around the White House to keep the demonstrators from coming on the White House grounds. They didn't have those concrete barricades in those days.

Are we going to survive this? You bet we are.

HANNITY: Does that historical knowledge help you?

RUMSFELD: Oh, absolutely.

HANNITY: It does?

RUMSFELD: Absolutely.

HANNITY: You see this administration and the president and what you're doing, you see it in the context of history?

RUMSFELD: You have to. I mean, think if we'd thrown in the towel during the Revolutionary War and said it's too tough, it's too difficult, it's taking too long, it costs too much, we can't do it. Or World War II. We lost battle after battle after battle in the beginning of World War II.

HANNITY: Once a year with my good friend, Colonel [Oliver] North, we go to Bethesda. We've gone to Walter Reed. We've met these soldiers. They're going through tough times. Very interesting. Every time they tell me one of the most frequent guests that goes in without any fanfare, any cameras, any publicity, often is Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. You go over there quite a bit, don't you?

RUMSFELD: Well, we do. And thank you for going and you and Ollie North.

HANNITY: I'm honored to be there.

RUMSFELD: It's a wonderful thing. It's a big boost in their lives. But you know, if you want to be inspired, that's the place to go. These folks are so proud of their service and are so professional and talented in what they've done for the country. And they're up. They're anxious to get back to their units. They're strong.

And the amazing thing to me is their families feel the same way. I'm always struck that I leave there feeling how fortunate we are as a country to have, not just the soldiers and sailors and airmen and Marines, but their families and their loved ones be so supportive and so strong and so proud of our country and so willing to defend freedom.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

We continue now with my interview with Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld at the ABC Radio studios from earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HANNITY: Let's talk about John Kerry. He had a piece in The New York Times this week. And among other things, he said Iraqi politicians should be told that they have until May 15 to put together an effective unity government or we will immediately withdraw our military.

RUMSFELD: The Iraqis are going to form a government. They're going to have a government. There are people who are suggesting that the president should put more pressure on them.

The risk of that is that you're going to end up with a government that doesn't have the support of the Iraqi people, that it is a government that's imposed on them on a timetable and with certain stipulations.

The president's stipulations have been clear. It's that they have a government that's respectful of all the elements in that country and that's at peace with its neighbors. And they're going to get a government, in my view. But I think that there's a risk in being too heavy-handed and to visible in mandating what should take place in what is a sovereign country.

HANNITY: Right. I want to move on. I'm going to get back to politics if I have time in just a second.

I want to talk about what obviously is one of the biggest hot spots of the world. And we have North Korea. We also have Iran and Ahmadinejad. And his threats: he wants to annihilate Israel, wipe it off the face of the earth. He has thumbed his nose to the rest of the world community as it relates to moving forward with his nuclear program.

How big a threat do you view him? We saw the test that he ran with these missiles just in the last week. How big a threat is Iran to the United States? And will the United States prepare — must we prepare for the possibility we'll be at war with Iran?

RUMSFELD: Iran is a large country. It's historically an important country. It's a technologically capable country. It has leadership right now that you've properly characterized. They've not only said roughly that about Israel but also roughly that about the United States. They sponsor terrorism in — with Hezbollah and Hamas.

They are a country that, by their behavior, are really isolating themselves from many of the countries of the world. They are spending their time with Syria and North Korea and people like that.

HANNITY: Right.

RUMSFELD: I think the — the Iranian people do not want to be isolated from the world. And I think that Ahmadinejad is behaving in a way that may have that effect, and I think that it could weaken his position over time, but time will tell.

HANNITY: Yes. Do you see that we may have a military confrontation?

RUMSFELD: You know, the president is on a diplomatic track. That's his decision, and it's the right decision in my view. And all efforts are being made to see that the United Nations engages that subject. And I think it's best to leave it at that.

HANNITY: Let me talk about the current conflicts, future conflicts. You know, our task today is similar to the Cold War at one point. You said our nation is engaged in what will be a long war. That's another quote of yours. You said that in many ways, many critical battles on the War on Terror will be fought in the newsrooms and editorial boards. Put those three quotes together.

RUMSFELD: It is going to take time, because it's a struggle between violent extremists, a relatively small number, and the major Muslim population, which is not composed of violent extremists.

Second, they are going at us asymmetrically, with irregular warfare. We're not going to lose a battle in Iraq, or in Afghanistan or anywhere in the world against a terrorist network. They operate in the shadows.

The task is to put pressure on them all across the world and make everything more difficult for them, make it harder to raise money, harder to recruit, harder to move weapons, harder — harder to talk to each other. And that's what we're doing.

Now, it's a test of wills. And if they can't win a battle, where can they win? The only place they can win is in the capitals of Western countries. And trying to persuade the American people and other western nations, free people, look, it isn't worth the costs. It isn't worth the time. It isn't worth the lives. It isn't worth the money.

And to get them to toss in the towel and say it's not worth the effort. Well, it is worth the effort, because terrorists are against free people behaving as free people. And that's the very essence of what America is.

HANNITY: Less than a minute — It's a long war. It's similar to the Cold War and it's fought also in the editorial room boards. Does this go on throughout our lifetime? I have young children, their lifetime? This goes on for — for that long a period?

RUMSFELD: It could go on for a good many years. The Cold War, no one estimated the Cold War would last 40 or 50 years. It did.

HANNITY: Yes.

RUMSFELD: How long this will take, I can't say. People basically want to be free, and they don't want to be terrorized. And they don't want to have to alter their behavior. And I think that most people understand that. So I'm confident about the American people finding — using good judgment about this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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